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On December 16 2020 21:11 Vivax wrote:
Apparently there‘s a conventional vaccine in phase 2 by novavax which consists of spike proteins. I‘ll take that one, and leave the mRNA version to more temerary volunteers.
If just injecting me with the protein is enough for immunogenicity, why go as far as making my cells produce it? Seems risky and unnecessary, but apparently it‘s cheaper, or fancy.
I thought the mRNA was more expensive and with trickier storage issues. It's more effective, though?
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Interestingly, while the pandemic have decreased the mental health for healthy people it seems like the opposite have been true for people with pre-existing anxiety, depression, and obsessive-compulsive disorders. While some of it could be explained by "reversion to the mean" (although I do not see it discussed), it is encouraging to see those who were struggling with it the most, have not had their sickness turn into something worse. On a personal level, as someone who is bipolar, I have found it to be accurate for myself as well. However I have had a lot more focus on the keeping my mental health strong during the pandemic than a regular year, so that might play into it.
Findings
The number and chronicity of disorders showed a positive graded dose–response relation, with greater perceived impact on mental health, fear, and poorer coping. Although people with depressive, anxiety, or obsessive-compulsive disorders scored higher on all four symptom scales than did individuals without these mental health disorders, both before and during the COVID-19 pandemic, they did not report a greater increase in symptoms during the pandemic. In fact, people without depressive, anxiety, or obsessive-compulsive disorders showed a greater increase in symptoms during the COVID-19 pandemic, whereas individuals with the greatest burden on their mental health tended to show a slight symptom decrease.
The mental health impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on people with and without depressive, anxiety, or obsessive-compulsive disorders: a longitudinal study of three Dutch case-control cohorts
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On December 17 2020 00:31 Neneu wrote:Interestingly, while the pandemic have decreased the mental health for healthy people it seems like the opposite have been true for people with pre-existing anxiety, depression, and obsessive-compulsive disorders. While some of it could be explained by "reversion to the mean" (although I do not see it discussed), it is encouraging to see those who were struggling with it the most, have not had their sickness turn into something worse. On a personal level, as someone who is bipolar, I have found it to be accurate for myself as well. However I have had a lot more focus on the keeping my mental health strong during the pandemic than a regular year, so that might play into it. Show nested quote +Findings
The number and chronicity of disorders showed a positive graded dose–response relation, with greater perceived impact on mental health, fear, and poorer coping. Although people with depressive, anxiety, or obsessive-compulsive disorders scored higher on all four symptom scales than did individuals without these mental health disorders, both before and during the COVID-19 pandemic, they did not report a greater increase in symptoms during the pandemic. In fact, people without depressive, anxiety, or obsessive-compulsive disorders showed a greater increase in symptoms during the COVID-19 pandemic, whereas individuals with the greatest burden on their mental health tended to show a slight symptom decrease. The mental health impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on people with and without depressive, anxiety, or obsessive-compulsive disorders: a longitudinal study of three Dutch case-control cohorts
Totally been the case for me. I'm significantly more emotionally healthy.
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By the time my demographic has access to the vaccine, there will be 4-6 months of extra safety data so it will either be really obvious that it's not safe in which case i don't take it, or I'll take it when it's my turn
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On December 17 2020 00:31 Neneu wrote:Interestingly, while the pandemic have decreased the mental health for healthy people it seems like the opposite have been true for people with pre-existing anxiety, depression, and obsessive-compulsive disorders. While some of it could be explained by "reversion to the mean" (although I do not see it discussed), it is encouraging to see those who were struggling with it the most, have not had their sickness turn into something worse. On a personal level, as someone who is bipolar, I have found it to be accurate for myself as well. However I have had a lot more focus on the keeping my mental health strong during the pandemic than a regular year, so that might play into it. Show nested quote +Findings
The number and chronicity of disorders showed a positive graded dose–response relation, with greater perceived impact on mental health, fear, and poorer coping. Although people with depressive, anxiety, or obsessive-compulsive disorders scored higher on all four symptom scales than did individuals without these mental health disorders, both before and during the COVID-19 pandemic, they did not report a greater increase in symptoms during the pandemic. In fact, people without depressive, anxiety, or obsessive-compulsive disorders showed a greater increase in symptoms during the COVID-19 pandemic, whereas individuals with the greatest burden on their mental health tended to show a slight symptom decrease. The mental health impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on people with and without depressive, anxiety, or obsessive-compulsive disorders: a longitudinal study of three Dutch case-control cohorts
The Lars von Trier movie "Melancholia" explores this phenomenon from a pre-apocalyptic angle. In a nutshell, when one's mind is wracked with lonesome feelings of grief and depression, sea changes in society with widespread mental health impacts can figure as field levelers that bring neurotypicals into the places already familiar to the pathologically sad.
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On December 16 2020 21:11 Vivax wrote:
Apparently there‘s a conventional vaccine in phase 2 by novavax which consists of spike proteins. I‘ll take that one, and leave the mRNA version to more temerary volunteers.
If just injecting me with the protein is enough for immunogenicity, why go as far as making my cells produce it? Seems risky and unnecessary, but apparently it‘s cheaper, or fancy.
The Sanofi/GSK regular vaccine which was supposed to finish phase 2 recently, has been pushed back last week due to poor/insufficient results among the most vulnerable population. It won't come until at best end of 2021 and has to start a phase 2b.
Maybe there IS a reason to have your cells produce it, since might I remind you, no "regular" coronavirus (any of them) vaccine exists, while it's not the first virus to spread among men.
Time will tell, but be patient.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On December 17 2020 00:31 Neneu wrote:Interestingly, while the pandemic have decreased the mental health for healthy people it seems like the opposite have been true for people with pre-existing anxiety, depression, and obsessive-compulsive disorders. While some of it could be explained by "reversion to the mean" (although I do not see it discussed), it is encouraging to see those who were struggling with it the most, have not had their sickness turn into something worse. On a personal level, as someone who is bipolar, I have found it to be accurate for myself as well. However I have had a lot more focus on the keeping my mental health strong during the pandemic than a regular year, so that might play into it. Show nested quote +Findings
The number and chronicity of disorders showed a positive graded dose–response relation, with greater perceived impact on mental health, fear, and poorer coping. Although people with depressive, anxiety, or obsessive-compulsive disorders scored higher on all four symptom scales than did individuals without these mental health disorders, both before and during the COVID-19 pandemic, they did not report a greater increase in symptoms during the pandemic. In fact, people without depressive, anxiety, or obsessive-compulsive disorders showed a greater increase in symptoms during the COVID-19 pandemic, whereas individuals with the greatest burden on their mental health tended to show a slight symptom decrease. The mental health impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on people with and without depressive, anxiety, or obsessive-compulsive disorders: a longitudinal study of three Dutch case-control cohorts
This seems like complete bollocks just intuitively, but I shall investigate further in case my preconceptions are way off!
For anxiety I could see it, certainly anecdotally people I know with those issues prefer working at home and not negotiating office politics have been actively preferring it.
It’ll vary, I’d contend a lot of societal mental health issues are environmental for many, many people so an enforced change of environment can be beneficial for sure. Having bars closed forced a change in my habits where I both drank a lot less and spent a lot less, so financial stress lifted too. Got into a more healthy exercise routine due to boredom and stir craziness, but I’ve found I enjoyed that.
For other folks, including the 3 people I know who got hospitalised over the lockdown period (after 5 years where none of them were back in a ward), myself at times and other people I know it’s a marked problem.
I guess their data could be correct but I’m unsure how their sampling sifted through different people. Broad generalisation but functional anxious or depressive folks love to post about awareness on social media, or engage in discussions or surveys.
People who are really fucking depressed I don’t think are likely to engage with much of anything.
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On December 16 2020 21:11 Vivax wrote:
Apparently there‘s a conventional vaccine in phase 2 by novavax which consists of spike proteins. I‘ll take that one, and leave the mRNA version to more temerary volunteers.
If just injecting me with the protein is enough for immunogenicity, why go as far as making my cells produce it? Seems risky and unnecessary, but apparently it‘s cheaper, or fancy.
From what I understand, the mRNA vaccines were quicker to be developed and sooner to demonstrate safety and efficacy in their clinical trials. There are protein-based vaccines being developed, but they're taking longer to get through clinical trials since it takes more development for them to hone in on a formulation and dose with enough of an immune response. Here's an article going over some protein-based vaccines in the works and the challenges in getting them to work.
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Will be getting the vaccine next week then back to the ICU soon after for me. I definitely want to get the vaccine asap since I have lots of exposure. I also want to help reduce asymptomatic community spread.
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So, my rather morbid following of USA's worldometers results continues. They're pretty much at the breaking point everywhere. Most other countries that had a lot of deaths had local regions that were significantly worse than others, so countries could reallocate resources into the hard hit regions. There is nowhere to reallocate resources from when it is out of control everywhere, and everything is stretched thin.
US is now into the 3rd week of 200k+ confirmed daily cases. 3538 people passed away yesterday, and ~250k were diagnosed. If we go by the US's case fatality rate of 1.8%, that's ~4500 a day coming in a couple weeks when the deaths catch up, possibly sooner. California just hit zero ICU beds in the entire state(basically would be as bad as Canada running out of ICU space), and just diagnosed 60k today, with 400 deaths.
Probably a good year with legitimate reasons to actually cancel Christmas celebrations, and also NYE as well(unless you are in a select few countries with good leadership). But with something like half the US thinking it's a hoax(and a significant fraction also being anti-vax) I don't even know how they get it under control.
Some good news though, a very small number of healthcare workers in my area are getting vaccinated. Probably another month or so and I can worry less about my friends in healthcare.
On December 17 2020 13:44 Titusmaster6 wrote:
Will be getting the vaccine next week then back to the ICU soon after for me. I definitely want to get the vaccine asap since I have lots of exposure. I also want to help reduce asymptomatic community spread.
That's good to hear. One of my friends who works in a supposed non-covid ward has already had 3 potential exposure events to patients who aren't supposed to be positive, and has basically been rotating between isolation and work for the last few months. Can't imagine what it's like in what is undoubtedly a more covid rich hospital in an ICU. Stay safe out there.
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We’re starting to declare victory as the vaccine is in the early stages of deployment. Truth is that we’re only at best 60% through the dangerous phase of the pandemic, and the next 4 months are going to be among the deadliest because a broad swath of the world is dealing with uncontrolled spread.
It gets worse before it gets better, no doubt about that. Vaccines are too late to prevent a bloody winter, and only if we’re lucky they’ll save the summer.
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French government just annonced that Macron tested positive. Considering they broke the lockdown without good reasons (well, they dont wanna piss people for christmas, obviously), quite an interesting follow up.
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On December 17 2020 19:13 LegalLord wrote:
We’re starting to declare victory as the vaccine is in the early stages of deployment. Truth is that we’re only at best 60% through the dangerous phase of the pandemic, and the next 4 months are going to be among the deadliest because a broad swath of the world is dealing with uncontrolled spread.
It gets worse before it gets better, no doubt about that. Vaccines are too late to prevent a bloody winter, and only if we’re lucky they’ll save the summer.
Gotta agree with you on that front. Vaccine is still more than a month away from having good effectivity on the first ones receiving injections, and probably half a year from general availability.
The closer the r0 value is to 1, the more impact getting even a small subset of the populace vaccinated will have, especially if that pushes it past the inflection point. For where I am, our r0 is hovering around 1, so a 5% vaccination rate would already start dropping the caseload slowly over a few weeks, and by 10% we can see meaningful progress in eliminating Covid.
Meanwhile in places like the US, vaccination is hopeless as even vaccinating like 20% or 30% just turns it from super bad to really bad as it's uncontrolled growth either way.
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On December 17 2020 19:48 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2020 19:13 LegalLord wrote:
We’re starting to declare victory as the vaccine is in the early stages of deployment. Truth is that we’re only at best 60% through the dangerous phase of the pandemic, and the next 4 months are going to be among the deadliest because a broad swath of the world is dealing with uncontrolled spread.
It gets worse before it gets better, no doubt about that. Vaccines are too late to prevent a bloody winter, and only if we’re lucky they’ll save the summer. Gotta agree with you on that front. Vaccine is still more than a month away from having good effectivity on the first ones receiving injections, and probably half a year from general availability. The closer the r0 value is to 1, the more impact getting even a small subset of the populace vaccinated will have, especially if that pushes it past the inflection point. For where I am, our r0 is hovering around 1, so a 5% vaccination rate would already start dropping the caseload slowly over a few weeks, and by 10% we can see meaningful progress in eliminating Covid. Meanwhile in places like the US, vaccination is hopeless as even vaccinating like 20% or 30% just turns it from super bad to really bad as it's uncontrolled growth either way.
Gotta keep in mind that a large majority of people who got infected are likely immune at this point. 5.3% cases have been reported, of which 97% have survived, which brings it to a little over 5% of people who can be assumed are likely immune. Add to that the dark figure of unreported infections with or without symptoms who are also likely immune.
This is why I think it's important for the US to test people first before they decide to vaccinate them, and to also consider if they're potential superspreaders or not.
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There's pretty good evidence that immunity fades off now. Whether it fades off after 6 months or 6 years seems to vary from person to person. Relying on antibody tests to determine if you get the vaccine seems like a really bad policy.
In other news, Moderna vaccine has been approved by the advisory council for the FDA. (It doesn't require the super cold storage). This means overall approval should come within a couple of days.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/17/moderna-covid-vaccine-fda-panel-recommends-emergency-approval.html
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On December 18 2020 09:23 Nevuk wrote:There's pretty good evidence that immunity fades off now. Whether it fades off after 6 months or 6 years seems to vary from person to person. Relying on antibody tests to determine if you get the vaccine seems like a really bad policy. In other news, Moderna vaccine has been approved by the advisory council for the FDA. (It doesn't require the super cold storage). This means overall approval should come within a couple of days. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/17/moderna-covid-vaccine-fda-panel-recommends-emergency-approval.html
Could you provide the study or studies that show how long immunity lasts after infection?
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The studies about immunity after infection (which I posted a few pages earlier) support the idea that it's long-lasting for up to 8 months. I wasn't able to find any studies that suggest waning of such immunity after 6 months or 8 months, so the safest assumption would be that it lasts as long as immunities against other viruses (so in this case anything from 8 months up to a lifetime). That's easily as lasting as an immunity that was attained from a vaccine, and potentially even longer.
That's why I'm hoping Nevuk is going to post evidence to the contrary, as that'd be very important information that should inform policy.
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Found this recently posted info , clearly written by an anti-vaxxer conspiracy nutjob. /s
(I think you can find his twitter and credentials on your own from here, if you so desire)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/FzqRSgs.png)
User was temp banned for this post.
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ERVs are when at some point in the last thousands of years, a virus inserted itself into a germ line cell, its code got integrated into the genome, and then passed on to the next generation. They’re generally nonfunctional, because they’ve been through thousands of years of mutation (and because if they were functional they would probably be detrimental to survival and get weeded out). They’re basically a forensic record of ancient humans (or pre-humans) getting viral infections.
LINEs are chunks of DNA with, basically, a complete self-copying kit - once in a while they make a little complex of protein and RNA that can float somewhere else in the genome and insert itself. Sometimes they interrupt an important gene and cause a genetic disease; the rest of the time they probably don’t do much at all.
Neither is a serious reason to think the vaccine’s RNA will get integrated to any meaningful degree. There’s a reason viruses always bring their own reverse transcriptase with them; you can’t just insert RNA into a bunch of cells and get any significant degree of integration. Dunno who Pieter Borger is, but this feels a lot like when any MD willing to say “HCQ works” started getting screenshotted and shared all over the internet. This is not a good way to understand expert consensus.
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EPT
