EPTSocial distancing most definitely works. There's no question about that. But this also has a pretty wide range of negative side effects.. While I'm okay with a period of social distancing to knock down spread, it's not a viable long term solution (and even with positive news about vaccines, the period until vaccines are in place still counts as long term imo).
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28733 Posts
Social distancing most definitely works. There's no question about that. But this also has a pretty wide range of negative side effects.. While I'm okay with a period of social distancing to knock down spread, it's not a viable long term solution (and even with positive news about vaccines, the period until vaccines are in place still counts as long term imo). | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On November 15 2020 23:49 Liquid`Drone wrote: (Especially not at this stage where there's no shortage of reasonable masks - I was fine with the initial message of 'don't hoard n95 masks cuz medical personnel might need them'. ) No shortage of reasonable masks except actual N95 masks. Would be nice to have some of those given that, you know, plague wards in hospitals aren't the only place they're needed. | ||
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Vivax
22145 Posts
On November 15 2020 23:49 Liquid`Drone wrote: Mask use is unintrusive (unless you are in such bad shape you should be really afraid of getting covid), but how effective it is isn't really conclusive. The point is rather that this is a measure anybody can take without being negatively influenced by it, and the idea is that the more people who wear them, the more open society can be. I get that you want to argue that masks aren't some magical solution to covid, and I agree, but I don't see what the problem with wearing them is. (Especially not at this stage where there's no shortage of reasonable masks - I was fine with the initial message of 'don't hoard n95 masks cuz medical personnel might need them'. ) Social distancing most definitely works. There's no question about that. But this also has a pretty wide range of negative side effects.. While I'm okay with a period of social distancing to knock down spread, it's not a viable long term solution (and even with positive news about vaccines, the period until vaccines are in place still counts as long term imo). Considering that we're headed for another lockdown and the blame is entirely shifted to private meetings, I find it questionable that 1) Masks are effective and 2) private meetings are supposedly the main source. Contact tracing hasn't worked here but the confidence with which these meetings are blamed suggests the legislators don't have any clue themselves and simply prioritize shifting the blame from themselves for the measures being proven insufficient. I suspect Germany soft-sanctioning us by declaring us a red zone when they are one of the main drivers of tourism is the main motivator behind the measures, though I have seen the ICU numbers of my local town and they are indeed on the rise and almost at limit, with the patients usually being over 80 something. I don't know what their average turnover time is though. If the average patient needs a few days at most to be released as healthy, that would be positive. And from this article (didn't really format the quote properly) : https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(14)70846-1/fulltext + Show Spoiler + Attention has focused on attempts to assess the eff ectiveness of interventions that might be expected to mitigate the eff ect of pandemics, especially to the 2009 H1N1 pandemic, but the results of these have not been helpful because, for epidemiological reasons, they have not been able to produce consistent evidence of eff ect or of lack of eff ect.19,20 Thus, whereas there is a high degree of confi dence in handwashing as an intervention, there is much less certainty about the contribution of mask wearing and social distancing, including the contribution of school closures in the 2009 pandemic, and the use of thermal screening at ports has been challenged. Personally I've gotten used to wearing a mask but I think it's a small benefit at most. What really bothers me though are the lockdowns and limitations past 8 PM. Additionally this rumour that you can’t get immune after an infection is really bold imo. Otherwise we could have had some sort of immunity certification for a while now. How’s a vaccine even supposed to work if natural immunity is considered imppssible? | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5599 Posts
On November 15 2020 23:49 Liquid`Drone wrote: Mask use is unintrusive (unless you are in such bad shape you should be really afraid of getting covid), but how effective it is isn't really conclusive. The point is rather that this is a measure anybody can take without being negatively influenced by it, and the idea is that the more people who wear them, the more open society can be. I get that you want to argue that masks aren't some magical solution to covid, and I agree, but I don't see what the problem with wearing them is. (Especially not at this stage where there's no shortage of reasonable masks - I was fine with the initial message of 'don't hoard n95 masks cuz medical personnel might need them'. ) Social distancing most definitely works. There's no question about that. But this also has a pretty wide range of negative side effects.. While I'm okay with a period of social distancing to knock down spread, it's not a viable long term solution (and even with positive news about vaccines, the period until vaccines are in place still counts as long term imo). I don't really have a horse in this race, but here could be a problem with this reasoning. If masks turn out to not be that helpful but the fact that people use them make "society more open" anyway, as you put it, that could potentially make the spread worse. Also, I'm one of the very few people here in Sweden who wear a n95 mask when the buss is crowded - and it really is pretty obnoxious, I have to say, especially since my glasses fog up all the time... | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On November 16 2020 01:27 LegalLord wrote: No shortage of reasonable masks except actual N95 masks. Would be nice to have some of those given that, you know, plague wards in hospitals aren't the only place they're needed. https://cambridgemask.com/ In stock, knock yourself out. They're in fact N99 masks, i've got multiple in the house/car. And no, they're not too restrictive, if my mother with COPD can breathe through that mask, anyone can. and it really is pretty obnoxious, I have to say, especially since my glasses fog up all the time... Get a decent mask then. My sunglasses don't fog up because my masks are actually fitting my face, rather than the stupid paper crap that leaves huge gaps under the eyes. | ||
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Slydie
1929 Posts
On November 15 2020 23:49 Liquid`Drone wrote: Mask use is unintrusive (unless you are in such bad shape you should be really afraid of getting covid), but how effective it is isn't really conclusive. The point is rather that this is a measure anybody can take without being negatively influenced by it, and the idea is that the more people who wear them, the more open society can be. I get that you want to argue that masks aren't some magical solution to covid, and I agree, but I don't see what the problem with wearing them is. (Especially not at this stage where there's no shortage of reasonable masks - I was fine with the initial message of 'don't hoard n95 masks cuz medical personnel might need them'. ) Social distancing most definitely works. There's no question about that. But this also has a pretty wide range of negative side effects.. While I'm okay with a period of social distancing to knock down spread, it's not a viable long term solution (and even with positive news about vaccines, the period until vaccines are in place still counts as long term imo). Yes, the IDEA is that if everybody wears masks, we can move around as normal without being locked down. In Spain, that is aboslutely how so few questions were asked, as people are terrified to be locked in their homes for another 2 weeks. But, in the real world, the numbers and research tell me that that "idea" is a pure political and moral construction. I don't know where you live, but if you live in Norway, as your signature says, you don't know what you are talking about. The Norwegian government has always had a very rational way of dealing with mask use, starting off with making a database what the research on subject. They are only recommending them in very specific situations where the rule of 1m distance can't be overheld. Wearing masks in airplanes suck, but if it is proved to have effect, I don't mind as I don't fly that often, especially not now. I have major doubts in their effect in stores and short rides in public transport too, but it is doable, and WHO says it can be recommended it in areas with a lot of spread, so fine. The real problems imo start with blanked obligations, including outside and even for mountain hikes in some areas, like they have here in Spain. You get no benefit from that bullshit, and looking at the massive 2nd wave Spain is suffering, it should be obvious. You only have so much political capital you can use, and spending so much of it on enforcing "universal" face masks in Spain was an obvious mistake. NO, the virus practiaclly does not spread on the street, and passing a stranger with under 1m distance is not dangerous, unless you go out of your way to sneeze or spit them in the face, but that is how people think now. That was while people were still visiting friends and familiy, sharing meals and going to bars almost like previously. I also disagree with the "non intrusive" part. Obliging people to cover their faces everywhere in public is actually a major intrusion of private liberty, and I have fresh memories about heated debates about how awful it was by muslim women to cover theirs. The main issue for me isn't really to wear it myself, but how it makes us all less human, blocking almost all facial comunication. In Spain, teachers and kindergaten personel also have to wear them, with the obvious disadvantages it has for dealing with the youngsters. Teenagers, for whom appreciation from their peers is the most important thing in the worlds, put their masks under their chins as soon as they don't thnk anybody is watching anyway. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On November 16 2020 16:01 m4ini wrote: https://cambridgemask.com/ In stock, knock yourself out. They're in fact N99 masks, i've got multiple in the house/car. And no, they're not too restrictive, if my mother with COPD can breathe through that mask, anyone can. Get a decent mask then. My sunglasses don't fog up because my masks are actually fitting my face, rather than the stupid paper crap that leaves huge gaps under the eyes. Maybe production wouldn't be able to keep up with increased and more complex demand. The quality of masks could start to diminish. They're still trying to figure out what the best masks are - outside of surgical masks or N95 - and cloth is apparently the best material. I don't know how easy/difficult it is to mass produce cloth masks for everyone, especially including those who were glasses. Just saying "get a decent mask" seems quite dismissive to me. If all people who wear glasses asked you what mask to wear, would you give them all the same answer? How would they all get their hands on those? And then you also have to keep in mind you can't wear the same mask through the whole day. So many people would need several masks readily available, further increasing demand. Then there's the problem that people would have to correctly follow professional advice on mask usage and recycling, for each type of mask. Do they? https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-10-effectiveness-mask-materials.html Plus, I think that mask mandates may've potentially had an unexpected effect on the infection rate. There have been cases reported of people gathering because they thought they'd be safe if they all wore masks, and as a result they got infected. Did masks result in more lax policies, increasing the infection rate? Quite possibly. I'm not sure about this radical mask-on approach. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45221 Posts
On November 16 2020 03:59 Elroi wrote: I don't really have a horse in this race, but here could be a problem with this reasoning. If masks turn out to not be that helpful but the fact that people use them make "society more open" anyway, as you put it, that could potentially make the spread worse. Also, I'm one of the very few people here in Sweden who wear a n95 mask when the buss is crowded - and it really is pretty obnoxious, I have to say, especially since my glasses fog up all the time... To be fair though, it's not like the medical community is saying "If you wear a mask, you're guaranteed to be safe from covid and you no longer need to social distance or consider any other precautions." You're right that laymen might stop caring about other precautions if they do just one of the things they're supposed to, but the best we can do is repeat the importance of all these precautions, and hope that people stop being lazy and selfish. | ||
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Vivax
22145 Posts
There’s a reason for the built in plastic nosepiece :p | ||
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Incomplete..ReV
Norway637 Posts
And then last week (Wednesday) I started getting symptoms as well. Runny nose at first, and then when I lost my sense of taste and smell on Thursday there was no doubt at all what I had. Got the reply from the lab yesterday. Now I'm stuck in isolation after having essentially been in isolation already! Fortunately, my wife and son won't have to be quarantined because of me since they've already had it, so that's a plus ^_^ Guess it's as good as time as any to have it over with (assuming I keep getting better the way I am) since then we're good to go for Christmas! It's a bit odd to think though that we are potentially (and most likely) immune. At least for a time. But we are also potentially at risk for getting a much worse round if it if we get it again. Potentially immune, potentially at risk - guess the best thing is to remain safe as always and hope for the best! Isolation really sucks ass, especially when living in an apartment without the chance to go outside. Still, better than the health system going under, so I'll do it willingly and all that. But goodness but it sucks! | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
On November 16 2020 18:01 Slydie wrote: Yes, the IDEA is that if everybody wears masks, we can move around as normal without being locked down. In Spain, that is aboslutely how so few questions were asked, as people are terrified to be locked in their homes for another 2 weeks. But, in the real world, the numbers and research tell me that that "idea" is a pure political and moral construction. I don't know where you live, but if you live in Norway, as your signature says, you don't know what you are talking about. The Norwegian government has always had a very rational way of dealing with mask use, starting off with making a database what the research on subject. They are only recommending them in very specific situations where the rule of 1m distance can't be overheld. Wearing masks in airplanes suck, but if it is proved to have effect, I don't mind as I don't fly that often, especially not now. I have major doubts in their effect in stores and short rides in public transport too, but it is doable, and WHO says it can be recommended it in areas with a lot of spread, so fine. The real problems imo start with blanked obligations, including outside and even for mountain hikes in some areas, like they have here in Spain. You get no benefit from that bullshit, and looking at the massive 2nd wave Spain is suffering, it should be obvious. You only have so much political capital you can use, and spending so much of it on enforcing "universal" face masks in Spain was an obvious mistake. NO, the virus practiaclly does not spread on the street, and passing a stranger with under 1m distance is not dangerous, unless you go out of your way to sneeze or spit them in the face, but that is how people think now. That was while people were still visiting friends and familiy, sharing meals and going to bars almost like previously. I also disagree with the "non intrusive" part. Obliging people to cover their faces everywhere in public is actually a major intrusion of private liberty, and I have fresh memories about heated debates about how awful it was by muslim women to cover theirs. The main issue for me isn't really to wear it myself, but how it makes us all less human, blocking almost all facial comunication. In Spain, teachers and kindergaten personel also have to wear them, with the obvious disadvantages it has for dealing with the youngsters. Teenagers, for whom appreciation from their peers is the most important thing in the worlds, put their masks under their chins as soon as they don't thnk anybody is watching anyway. To me these obligatory mask zones outside are a means to get people to always wear them so that they wear them when it's necessary because they always wear them. To basically take away the individual's responsibility to put on the mask when necessary because it has been shown or thought that some simply are not up to the task of that decision. As I can't read Spanish that well to read up on the reasoning for the policy decisions, this is guess of mine as to the possible reasoning of mask on zones. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45221 Posts
On November 16 2020 21:13 Incomplete..ReV wrote: My wife caught corona at work (teacher) the week before last. She had a bit of a runny nose and sneezed a bit more than normal, plus feeling a bit like a normal cold, but that was the extent of it. The symptoms lasted about 4 days and she was as good as well again when she got the results from the lab. Our son (11 months) caught it as well, but only had a very mild fever for one day. And then last week (Wednesday) I started getting symptoms as well. Runny nose at first, and then when I lost my sense of taste and smell on Thursday there was no doubt at all what I had. Got the reply from the lab yesterday. Now I'm stuck in isolation after having essentially been in isolation already! Fortunately, my wife and son won't have to be quarantined because of me since they've already had it, so that's a plus ^_^ Guess it's as good as time as any to have it over with (assuming I keep getting better the way I am) since then we're good to go for Christmas! It's a bit odd to think though that we are potentially (and most likely) immune. At least for a time. But we are also potentially at risk for getting a much worse round if it if we get it again. Potentially immune, potentially at risk - guess the best thing is to remain safe as always and hope for the best! Isolation really sucks ass, especially when living in an apartment without the chance to go outside. Still, better than the health system going under, so I'll do it willingly and all that. But goodness but it sucks! Hopefully you'll have a reasonably quick and successful recovery!  Best of luck! | ||
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Vivax
22145 Posts
On November 16 2020 21:13 Incomplete..ReV wrote: My wife caught corona at work (teacher) the week before last. She had a bit of a runny nose and sneezed a bit more than normal, plus feeling a bit like a normal cold, but that was the extent of it. The symptoms lasted about 4 days and she was as good as well again when she got the results from the lab. Our son (11 months) caught it as well, but only had a very mild fever for one day. And then last week (Wednesday) I started getting symptoms as well. Runny nose at first, and then when I lost my sense of taste and smell on Thursday there was no doubt at all what I had. Got the reply from the lab yesterday. Now I'm stuck in isolation after having essentially been in isolation already! Fortunately, my wife and son won't have to be quarantined because of me since they've already had it, so that's a plus ^_^ Guess it's as good as time as any to have it over with (assuming I keep getting better the way I am) since then we're good to go for Christmas! It's a bit odd to think though that we are potentially (and most likely) immune. At least for a time. But we are also potentially at risk for getting a much worse round if it if we get it again. Potentially immune, potentially at risk - guess the best thing is to remain safe as always and hope for the best! Isolation really sucks ass, especially when living in an apartment without the chance to go outside. Still, better than the health system going under, so I'll do it willingly and all that. But goodness but it sucks! By definition when the symptoms recede (making you immune-for yourself) and maybe a doctor can confirm your viral load isn't sufficient to infect others, why isn't there a legislation in place anywhere that would allow you to move freely as an immune person? This is really something that should have been implemented a long time ago. Oh yeah did a quick googling on this: https://www.who.int/news-room/commentaries/detail/immunity-passports-in-the-context-of-covid-19 WHO says no. They did that in April. F*ck knows what they've been up to in the last months but it's just mind boggling that they can't figure out this reinfection story, or maybe they don't want to (yeah tinfoil hat territory). Of the references in their article all but two are from Chinese studies. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
If you're infectious, taking your mask on and off risks getting droplets on your hands to spread to others via surfaces; if you're not infectious, it means you're exposing yourself to everything that's been touching your mask, and also everything that's been touching your hands. But at least my anecdotal experience is that no mask users in the US use them this way. | ||
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wimpwimpwimp
171 Posts
On November 16 2020 21:43 Vivax wrote: By definition when the symptoms recede (making you immune-for yourself) and maybe a doctor can confirm your viral load isn't sufficient to infect others, why isn't there a legislation in place anywhere that would allow you to move freely as an immune person? This is really something that should have been implemented a long time ago. Oh yeah did a quick googling on this: https://www.who.int/news-room/commentaries/detail/immunity-passports-in-the-context-of-covid-19 WHO says no. They did that in April. F*ck knows what they've been up to in the last months but it's just mind boggling that they can't figure out this reinfection story, or maybe they don't want to (yeah tinfoil hat territory). Of the references in their article all but two are from Chinese studies. There's plenty of anecdotal evidence suggesting the possiblity of reinfections. I remember reading about a Russian scientiest purposefully trying to and succeeding in getting reinfected - and getting a much more severe illness the second time. Here's a paper describing a research project which examined immunity to the four other common coronaviruses over a 35 year period. It found reinfection was common after 12 months: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-1083-1.pdf | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On November 16 2020 16:01 m4ini wrote: https://cambridgemask.com/ In stock, knock yourself out. They're in fact N99 masks, i've got multiple in the house/car. And no, they're not too restrictive, if my mother with COPD can breathe through that mask, anyone can. Prices comparable to what the scalpers charge for N99s? I guess technically "in stock" but hardly indicative of production matching need. The other option is buying KN95s with dubious quality control (e.g. can fog classes), but $3 a pop instead of $30. Ideally real N95s would be produced in sufficient quantities as to be available to anyone who wants one, but oh well, too much to ask for a year into the shortage. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23580 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11716 Posts
I can't even fathom the thought process which goes into hoarding toilet paper of all things. Food, okay. Water, maybe. If you expect and apocalypse, cigarettes for trade might also be useful. But why is it always toilet paper that the hoarders absolutely have to have? And shouldn't they have enough left from the first time they started hoarding toilet paper? | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Silvanel
Poland4740 Posts
For those who want to be spoilered information about link below/ + Show Spoiler + Link leads to BBC article about armed gang stealing toliet paper in Hong Kong - its from February 2020. | ||
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