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On October 14 2020 01:50 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2020 12:28 WarSame wrote:On October 13 2020 11:35 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Numbers in the Netherlands have not been good at all. For a month infection numbers have just been rising and rising every day. There's been some minor measures to combat the rise but it doesn't seem to help much. If you extrapolate we will get into 'hospitals don't have time for non-urgent procedures' territory soon.
Rumors are the government will completely close all restaurants and bars again starting tomorrow Ontario's been going poorly as well. Gyms, restaurants and bars just got closed down again. I'm frustrated because I think some places are much more responsible for case growth than others. If restaurants are most of the cause then close those and leave theaters, gyms, etc. open. If otherwise, do otherwise. If all are responsible to reasonable degrees then close them all - but are they? Where's our public data that's going into these decisions? Is it parties solely the thing that's causing this? If so, what's the point in shutting down anything, instead of just cracking down on parties? We've had, what, 7 months to collect good data? Where is it? Where's the spread coming from? You can only collect data that exists. And none of the gyms, restaurants, and theaters are exactly chomping at the bit to disclose whether they were the loci of COVID superspreader events (and it's not like they would even know how many people they infected). Pretty much all we can rely on in a meaningful inference sense is the pre/post intervention closure info, which hit all of those at once and is heavily correlated with lifts on maximum gathering side, so you can't disentangle which is responsible.
It's possible, but you need to have low enough case counts that contact tracing works. For us, something like 20-30% of cases were traced back to bars/nightclubs, so that's a relatively impactful way of reducing spread without super drastic measures.
Side note: I just got a Covid test today. My left sinus has never felt so clean. I swear like 50% more air goes through there now. Kinda worried because both me and a coworker on my team are out with covid symptoms. Just went through a drive through center, no appointment or anything, took about an hour total including the wait. Should know within 48 hours whether or not it's simply a cold.
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All restaurants and bars will be closed completely for at least 4 weeks in Netherlands. Teamsports with more than 4 people will be stopped as well. Schools will stay open for now.
It will be tough for restaurants/bars to survive financially. Shops can stay open but have to close earlier. Alcohol can't be sold in the evening to discourage parties at home.
Face mask will be obligatory inside any public building. (Though technically only 'strongly advised' now because they need to fix the legality of forcing mask usage'). Mask usage in NL has been point of discussion for a long time, since the focus earlier in the year was on social distancing and the stance was that people with masks might get overconfident and not stay at distance because they think the mask makes everything safe. But at this point it feels long overdue as we clearly need both social distancing ánd masks because infection numbers are rising fast.
There's a decent amount of corona=hoax people here in NL too unfortunately, I hope they realize what damage they are causing.
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On October 12 2020 11:34 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2020 10:31 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On October 12 2020 06:27 JimmiC wrote:On October 12 2020 05:56 BlackJack wrote:“We in the World Health Organization do not advocate lockdowns as the primary means of control of this virus,” Nabarro said.
“The only time we believe a lockdown is justified is to buy you time to reorganize, regroup, rebalance your resources, protect your health workers who are exhausted, but by and large, we’d rather not do it.” Basically a verbatim account of what I have been saying in this thread for over 6 months. I'm glad the health professionals and I agree. This is what everyone has been saying. No one thinks lockdowns should be the primary method, nor have they been. The big strawman is that there a pro lockdown people wanting permanent lockdowns. There are plenty in Australia.Victoria has been in lockdown for over half of this year.Thankfully the Premiers secretary resigned a few hours ago and there are rumblings that the premiers own party will remove him from office. Seems like his comments recently that restrictions may not be lifted as much as expected (on Oct 19th) even though a state of 6 million is only getting 10-15 cases per day may have been the last straw. I dont know the Aus at all but complete lockdown with 10-15 does sound crazy. Is the strategy to completely get rid of it so they can completely open up minus travel?
Yes they seem to be going for complete elimination now and mandatory vaccines for travellers later.Latest is Australia's international border may be closed until the end of 2021
https://7news.com.au/travel/treasurer-josh-frydenberg-says-budget-assumes-borders-will-open-by-the-end-of-next-year-c-1370629
If you want to a silver lining, it's a great time to go to university and study.Many have dropped their fees substantially since international students aren't arriving.
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Northern Ireland27230 Posts
Eugh 4 week lockdown.
Really unsure how ima deal with this one. Oh boi
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On October 14 2020 21:46 WombaT wrote:
Eugh 4 week lockdown.
Really unsure how ima deal with this one. Oh boi
What exactly is "lockdown" in your case? The same term is used to describe 99999999999 different situations.
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Northern Ireland27230 Posts
On October 14 2020 23:25 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2020 21:46 WombaT wrote:
Eugh 4 week lockdown.
Really unsure how ima deal with this one. Oh boi What exactly is "lockdown" in your case? The same term is used to describe 99999999999 different situations.
Basically I have to work and basically nowhere else is open, no mixing with others in their homes, for at least a month. Schools are closed, that kind of thing.
Just a bit frustrated. Started college again, work weren’t playing ball in letting me drop my overtime commitments, so dropped seeing my girlfriend until I got on top of the workload, with the proviso that I’m available once I did obviously! Now we be locked down again.
Kiddo can’t go to school for a fortnight minimum, lockdown notice was too short for me to negotiate time off work as I could have taken care of childcare and saved his mum a bunch of case. Which I would have loved to do especially as he was quite upset I couldn’t see him last week (had to isolate pending test results) and is banging on about staying over at mine.
Yeah pretty much venting at this stage haha.
A bit of fucking notice would be nice if nothing else, but I understand you give too much and it gets into last days of Rome territory
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Catalonia is back to very close to lockdown conditions as well. Restaurants and bars closed and shops heavily restricted on entries (30% of "normal" capacity). Informal gatherings have been restricted for a while, but insofar as I know that isn't being restricted further.
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Bars have to close for 4 weeks in the Netherlands and then you see them advertise for one last party before the lockdown and I can't help but facepalm that a lot of people apparently still don't get the message.
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Mexico2170 Posts
A small thought experiment...
You wake up. It's January 23, the day Wuhan went into lock down. The virus has been silently spreading since late novemeber (though slowly since it's exponential growth).
Everyone went back in time. Everyone knows what is going to happen. You retain all your memories, everyone does.
Would the world manage Covid better? or worse?
Cause I'm leaning on worse...
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If this includes medical staff then I would say much better. I think emergency orders to close international travel, to shut down major public transit and to manufacture, distribute and require masks get implemented, and most places see no March surge of cases.
Of course, America still shits the bed.
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Gotta go back quite a bit further in time to change much here in the US
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Saban negative... Might have been a false +. Well known risk when conducting so many tests of asymptomatic people.
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On October 17 2020 05:34 [Phantom] wrote:
A small thought experiment...
You wake up. It's January 23, the day Wuhan went into lock down. The virus has been silently spreading since late novemeber (though slowly since it's exponential growth).
Everyone went back in time. Everyone knows what is going to happen. You retain all your memories, everyone does.
Would the world manage Covid better? or worse?
Cause I'm leaning on worse...
Even if everyone just starting shitting out cloth masks, we would likely save hundreds of thousands of lives. Imagine if everyone started wearing high quality cloth masks in February. Schools probably would have never closed.
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First thing that needs to be done as a lesson of all this mess, is to close all these markets like the one in Wuhan. I'm sure Chinese people can learn to live without a market for wild animals.
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On October 17 2020 06:37 arbiter_md wrote:
First thing that needs to be done as a lesson of all this mess, is to close all these markets like the one in Wuhan. I'm sure Chinese people can learn to live without a market for wild animals.
As soon as this is mentioned, people are quick to say "bUt iTs CuLtUrE aNd ThIS iS RaRe!1111!!!!"
Its like holy shit dude, just stop. The idea that China can't have clean markets is totally ridiculous.
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On October 17 2020 05:55 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2020 05:34 [Phantom] wrote:
A small thought experiment...
You wake up. It's January 23, the day Wuhan went into lock down. The virus has been silently spreading since late novemeber (though slowly since it's exponential growth).
Everyone went back in time. Everyone knows what is going to happen. You retain all your memories, everyone does.
Would the world manage Covid better? or worse?
Cause I'm leaning on worse... Even if everyone just starting shitting out cloth masks, we would likely save hundreds of thousands of lives. Imagine if everyone started wearing high quality cloth masks in February. Schools probably would have never closed.
That's an absurd claim. Masks are only mildly effective, and they are least effective in.places like schools where people are enclosed for 8 hours indoors, in the same spot for 40+ minutes straight. Schools are safe because kids aren't good at spreading (its not impossible, they just are low spreaders), that is mask- independent.
Also, its probable, based on what we are seeing, that the best measures, unless you have a full quarantine (probably of an island) are just delays.
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On October 17 2020 06:37 arbiter_md wrote:
First thing that needs to be done as a lesson of all this mess, is to close all these markets like the one in Wuhan. I'm sure Chinese people can learn to live without a market for wild animals.
That, but also we should generally take a closer look at setups which produces diseases.
The same thing that can be said about these markets can also be said about the use of antibiotics in animal farming. We are basically manufacturing multiresistant bacteria there, and we are burning the antibiotics which we could use to fight multiresistant bacteria just to produce more meat cheaper in more torturous conditions.
Anything but very basic antibiotics in meat farms should be banned. Basically everything about the meat industry is disgusting and horrible, but this is also immediately threatening to humans.
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On October 17 2020 05:34 [Phantom] wrote:
A small thought experiment...
You wake up. It's January 23, the day Wuhan went into lock down. The virus has been silently spreading since late novemeber (though slowly since it's exponential growth).
Everyone went back in time. Everyone knows what is going to happen. You retain all your memories, everyone does.
Would the world manage Covid better? or worse?
Cause I'm leaning on worse...
It was barely spread. I think we shut down all international travel, quarantine confirmed cases and eradicate the disease China style before it gets the chance to spread internationally. It took Italy 1 1/2 months after that to go into lockdown. If everyone knows what is going to happen it'll be easy to get support to implement partial lockdown measures in January, especially travel restrictions.
Of course, if Trump does the exact same stuff he did this time around (aka not giving a shit), none of it matters and we mostly end up exactly where we are right now. But Europe avoids the first wave, at least and has 8 extra months to prepare before it ravages through all the old age homes.
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On October 17 2020 15:21 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2020 05:55 Mohdoo wrote:On October 17 2020 05:34 [Phantom] wrote:
A small thought experiment...
You wake up. It's January 23, the day Wuhan went into lock down. The virus has been silently spreading since late novemeber (though slowly since it's exponential growth).
Everyone went back in time. Everyone knows what is going to happen. You retain all your memories, everyone does.
Would the world manage Covid better? or worse?
Cause I'm leaning on worse... Even if everyone just starting shitting out cloth masks, we would likely save hundreds of thousands of lives. Imagine if everyone started wearing high quality cloth masks in February. Schools probably would have never closed. That's an absurd claim. Masks are only mildly effective, and they are least effective in.places like schools where people are enclosed for 8 hours indoors, in the same spot for 40+ minutes straight. Schools are safe because kids aren't good at spreading (its not impossible, they just are low spreaders), that is mask- independent. Also, its probable, based on what we are seeing, that the best measures, unless you have a full quarantine (probably of an island) are just delays.
I think you need to understand that people aren't taking what you say at face value. It is ok for you to think these things, but saying them does not compel us to accept it as true.
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Northern Ireland27230 Posts
On October 18 2020 00:55 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2020 15:21 cLutZ wrote:On October 17 2020 05:55 Mohdoo wrote:On October 17 2020 05:34 [Phantom] wrote:
A small thought experiment...
You wake up. It's January 23, the day Wuhan went into lock down. The virus has been silently spreading since late novemeber (though slowly since it's exponential growth).
Everyone went back in time. Everyone knows what is going to happen. You retain all your memories, everyone does.
Would the world manage Covid better? or worse?
Cause I'm leaning on worse... Even if everyone just starting shitting out cloth masks, we would likely save hundreds of thousands of lives. Imagine if everyone started wearing high quality cloth masks in February. Schools probably would have never closed. That's an absurd claim. Masks are only mildly effective, and they are least effective in.places like schools where people are enclosed for 8 hours indoors, in the same spot for 40+ minutes straight. Schools are safe because kids aren't good at spreading (its not impossible, they just are low spreaders), that is mask- independent. Also, its probable, based on what we are seeing, that the best measures, unless you have a full quarantine (probably of an island) are just delays. I think you need to understand that people aren't taking what you say at face value. It is ok for you to think these things, but saying them does not compel us to accept it as true.
It only took 2 months of schools and colleges (albeit limited) being open here for spikes to happen. As to whether there’s any causal link there remains to be seen, but it is the biggest change to the populace’s routine by a distance recently.
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EPT
