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On June 23 2020 22:01 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2020 16:21 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 23 2020 06:29 Elroi wrote:On June 22 2020 03:57 KwarK wrote:
Another way of describing herd immunity is just letting the disease kill everyone it can. It’s like a firefighting strategy that involves letting the fire burn down all the flammable buildings and trusting in stone building immunity. It’s the absence of a strategy dressed up in fancy words. No. The idea is that the herd protects the weak when enough people have had the disease that it cannot spread any longer in the population. Before that you have to isolate and protect the weak individuals from getting the disease. If that strategy is correct or not is another discussion altogether. I think the difference of casualties between Sweden and Norway tells you all there is to know about said strategy. It doesn't work. I obviously didn't discuss that in my post though so I don't know why you would respond like that. But since you brought it up there is a discussion to be had on that topic that is difficult and needs a lot more nuance than you make it look like. The "difference of casualties between Sweden and Norway" does absolutely not tell me "all there is to know" about which strategy is the best cope with the virus. There is a lot more to take into account. For example: Did you know that about 15% of the workforce in Norway has been laid off since the start of the pandemic as a result of the lock down? Surely that is going to translate into deaths and misery since about every disease known to man correlates with poverty and unemployment? Another thing to keep in mind is that there is no excess mortality in Sweden right now. There has obviously been many deaths already, which is a tragedy - but it is important to keep in mind that Sweden has had regular flue seasons with similar or even higher number of casualties in 1993, 1996 and 2000 without any drastic measures taken to reduce the number of deaths. These are just some of the things to keep in mind when comparing strategies and outcomes between the two countries. The question is very complex and I don't know which strategy is the best. We probably can't tell until at least a year from now. What if Norway gets a new breakout of the disease because they don't have any immunity in the population? That would arguably make Sweden's strategy the most logical one. On the other hand, if there is a very efficient new cure that is discovered right now, that would probably make Norway's strategy the best. But I have a suspicion that you only care about the situation in Sweden/Norway because you can use it as a kind of strawman to criticize people like Trump, Johnson or Bolsonaro.
Actually the sad thing is that Norway and Sweden have in fine adopted relatively similar strategy, with small exceptions that have made a world of difference: cancelling large event, focusing on social distancing early and closing bars, restaurants and schools at the worst of the epidemic.
Norway has a tenth of swedish casualties per capita. True, many people were "permitert" for a while but that basically mean being on 70-80% of your salary for a couple of mon
Sweden, as Tegnel recognizes himself hasn't achieved anything close to herd immunity. It just has lost a lot of lives.
I believe the swedes did what they thought was right, but as of now it looks like they blundered the whole crisis at the expense of their elderly and for relatively little economic gain.
Nothing to do with Trump and Bolsonaro whose clusterfuck of a crisis management has come from their signature cocktail of stupidity and rejection of any advice coming from anyone who knows anything at all.
As for Johnson, it's just been incompetence and extreme nonchalance at the beginning of the crisis, but the UK was gonna be a massacre anyway. People were dying in emergency rooms before the pandemic because of how disgustingly underfunded the NHS is.
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I love playing and watching tennis, but we absolutely cannot have these kinds of tennis tournaments yet. It's still way too risky.
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You would think athletes would be more health conscious and be extra careful considering how crippling lung damage would be to their careers but I guess not...
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On June 23 2020 23:29 Gorsameth wrote:You would think athletes would be more health conscious and be extra careful considering how crippling lung damage would be to their careers but I guess not...
He's made a few controversial remarks in the past about vaccinations for coronavirus, so I don't think he took the situation as seriously as most athletes.
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Peru here
Things are not going well here, I was fortunate enough to keep my job (I'm a nerd who works with radiation and science in a big copper trader company), but I keep seeing people who lost jobs and savings and it doesn't seem to end in a near future.
I'm afraid I guess of my next-door neighbor things are going south and its a matter of time when people go out and pillage private property.
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On June 23 2020 23:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2020 23:29 Gorsameth wrote:You would think athletes would be more health conscious and be extra careful considering how crippling lung damage would be to their careers but I guess not... He's made a few controversial remarks in the past about vaccinations for coronavirus, so I don't think he took the situation as seriously as most athletes.
That's such a PR screw up, I'm surprised he doesn't have people around him who at least could tell him it's damaging for his reputation.
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On June 24 2020 01:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2020 23:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 23 2020 23:29 Gorsameth wrote:You would think athletes would be more health conscious and be extra careful considering how crippling lung damage would be to their careers but I guess not... He's made a few controversial remarks in the past about vaccinations for coronavirus, so I don't think he took the situation as seriously as most athletes. That's such a PR screw up, I'm surprised he doesn't have people around him who at least could tell him it's damaging for his reputation.
Yeah :/ I hope he comes out of all this okay (health-wise) and learns a little bit from this experience.
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On June 23 2020 22:46 Neneu wrote:Except closing of schools and kindergartens, the only major difference between Norway and Sweden have been how quickly they introduced new rules/guidelines together with the lack of guidelines to nursing homes. It is wrong that 15% of the workforce have been laid off since the pandemic as a result of the lockdown. Our current unemployment, if you include people who have part-time job or without a job at all, the rate is about 10.2% (2.07% higher than Sweden) . It is also wrong to say that most of the unemployment has come from the lockdown itself. Norway is a country which have most of its private sector jobs within exporting of goods or tourism, which has been heavily hit by the economic downturn, difficult to impossible logistics during pandemic, oil price crash, and a complete shutdown of foreign tourism. Sweden isn't going for herd immunity. Going for herd immunity while also having an R below 1, would take ages.
I think one advantage that Norway has on Sweden is they properly invested the money they made from Oil and can easily use it to help their citizens. It is actually astonishing how much foresight they have in terms of long term planning. It also shows that politicians seem to care about the good of the country and not just profit. I would need to find the details if you really want to but koodos to your country !
On June 23 2020 23:08 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2020 22:01 Elroi wrote:On June 23 2020 16:21 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 23 2020 06:29 Elroi wrote:On June 22 2020 03:57 KwarK wrote:
Another way of describing herd immunity is just letting the disease kill everyone it can. It’s like a firefighting strategy that involves letting the fire burn down all the flammable buildings and trusting in stone building immunity. It’s the absence of a strategy dressed up in fancy words. No. The idea is that the herd protects the weak when enough people have had the disease that it cannot spread any longer in the population. Before that you have to isolate and protect the weak individuals from getting the disease. If that strategy is correct or not is another discussion altogether. I think the difference of casualties between Sweden and Norway tells you all there is to know about said strategy. It doesn't work. I obviously didn't discuss that in my post though so I don't know why you would respond like that. But since you brought it up there is a discussion to be had on that topic that is difficult and needs a lot more nuance than you make it look like. The "difference of casualties between Sweden and Norway" does absolutely not tell me "all there is to know" about which strategy is the best cope with the virus. There is a lot more to take into account. For example: Did you know that about 15% of the workforce in Norway has been laid off since the start of the pandemic as a result of the lock down? Surely that is going to translate into deaths and misery since about every disease known to man correlates with poverty and unemployment? Another thing to keep in mind is that there is no excess mortality in Sweden right now. There has obviously been many deaths already, which is a tragedy - but it is important to keep in mind that Sweden has had regular flue seasons with similar or even higher number of casualties in 1993, 1996 and 2000 without any drastic measures taken to reduce the number of deaths. These are just some of the things to keep in mind when comparing strategies and outcomes between the two countries. The question is very complex and I don't know which strategy is the best. We probably can't tell until at least a year from now. What if Norway gets a new breakout of the disease because they don't have any immunity in the population? That would arguably make Sweden's strategy the most logical one. On the other hand, if there is a very efficient new cure that is discovered right now, that would probably make Norway's strategy the best. But I have a suspicion that you only care about the situation in Sweden/Norway because you can use it as a kind of strawman to criticize people like Trump, Johnson or Bolsonaro. Actually the sad thing is that Norway and Sweden have in fine adopted relatively similar strategy, with small exceptions that have made a world of difference: cancelling large event, focusing on social distancing early and closing bars, restaurants and schools at the worst of the epidemic. Norway has a tenth of swedish casualties per capita. True, many people were "permitert" for a while but that basically mean being on 70-80% of your salary for a couple of mon Sweden, as Tegnel recognizes himself hasn't achieved anything close to herd immunity. It just has lost a lot of lives. I believe the swedes did what they thought was right, but as of now it looks like they blundered the whole crisis at the expense of their elderly and for relatively little economic gain. Nothing to do with Trump and Bolsonaro whose clusterfuck of a crisis management has come from their signature cocktail of stupidity and rejection of any advice coming from anyone who knows anything at all. As for Johnson, it's just been incompetence and extreme nonchalance at the beginning of the crisis, but the UK was gonna be a massacre anyway. People were dying in emergency rooms before the pandemic because of how disgustingly underfunded the NHS is.
I think Sweden was a disaster because they had all the warnings coming from Italy and Spain. The only thing they cared about is the economy and didn't mind losing lives. It was NOT their priority. I don't think they care about taking care of their citizens and not only that, they were held on a pedastral from other countries (UK, Brazil and US for example) for their methodology.
The UK lied about their numbers, lied about their NHS help, and voted last year to remove funding to the NHS. Their whole political alignment was under fire and they stuck to their guns and their political idiologies instead of caring for their people. They got caught lying about the number of deaths where it was 5x the amount they publicly stated. How the UK can continue voting for this party, I have no idea. They cared more about politics than their people again even though Johnson was in ICU! When you look at the UK, it was a total disaster.
The US was the same as the UK, but add to that the fact that bailouts were given to corporations (friends) without tying them to anything. This is ridiculous. People will say that they don't want industries going bankrupt but ... bankruptcy does not mean that the company let's go of everybody. It just means that the executives get nothing (which they obvious don't deserve because they failed the company) and it gives the workers MORE power in the decision making for how to get out of bankruptcy. The US is basically a little tricky because it's an election year and so politics played a huge role in the decision making. There is a problem when there is a pandemic and you cannot even have a bipartisan consensus.
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On June 24 2020 02:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 01:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 23 2020 23:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 23 2020 23:29 Gorsameth wrote:You would think athletes would be more health conscious and be extra careful considering how crippling lung damage would be to their careers but I guess not... He's made a few controversial remarks in the past about vaccinations for coronavirus, so I don't think he took the situation as seriously as most athletes. That's such a PR screw up, I'm surprised he doesn't have people around him who at least could tell him it's damaging for his reputation. Yeah :/ I hope he comes out of all this okay (health-wise) and learns a little bit from this experience.
Definitely hoping that the pro athletes who get it come out ok.
It'd suck if he was the first of the big 3 in tennis to retire, directly because of covid causing his stamina to drop.
It would galvanize a large group of people to take the virus seriously, because an icon would be crippled. Imagine how devastated Brazil would be if Neymar caught it and had to retire as a result.
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On June 24 2020 02:25 Lmui wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 02:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2020 01:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 23 2020 23:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 23 2020 23:29 Gorsameth wrote:You would think athletes would be more health conscious and be extra careful considering how crippling lung damage would be to their careers but I guess not... He's made a few controversial remarks in the past about vaccinations for coronavirus, so I don't think he took the situation as seriously as most athletes. That's such a PR screw up, I'm surprised he doesn't have people around him who at least could tell him it's damaging for his reputation. Yeah :/ I hope he comes out of all this okay (health-wise) and learns a little bit from this experience. Definitely hoping that the pro athletes who get it come out ok. It'd suck if he was the first of the big 3 in tennis to retire, directly because of covid causing his stamina to drop. It would galvanize a large group of people to take the virus seriously, because an icon would be crippled. Imagine how devastated Brazil would be if Neymar caught it and had to retire as a result.
Agreed. I do love the Federer/Nadal/Djokovic dynasty, and all 3 of them (and many others) make tennis so interesting to follow. Soccer and other sports would have similarly tragic experiences if their biggest names had to retire due to coronavirus.
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On June 24 2020 00:29 zalem95 wrote:
Peru here
Things are not going well here, I was fortunate enough to keep my job (I'm a nerd who works with radiation and science in a big copper trader company), but I keep seeing people who lost jobs and savings and it doesn't seem to end in a near future.
I'm afraid I guess of my next-door neighbor things are going south and its a matter of time when people go out and pillage private property.
Thats really sad to hear. You work with spectrometeres? Or with RTG looking for microfractures? What exactly You do with copper/radiation? Seems intresting.
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On June 23 2020 23:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2020 23:29 Gorsameth wrote:You would think athletes would be more health conscious and be extra careful considering how crippling lung damage would be to their careers but I guess not... He's made a few controversial remarks in the past about vaccinations for coronavirus, so I don't think he took the situation as seriously as most athletes.
Controversial is a mild way of putting it. He’s a pure anti-vaxxer and his wife is one of those who is just asking questions when sharing 5G causes coronavirus theories. Of course they didn’t take the situation seriously.
His initial apology was just him talking about himself and taking no responsibility for his actions. The second apology was drafted by a PR person after they saw everyone treating him like a leper.
I’m going to bet that he’s going to learn absolutely nothing from this except to shut up about his conspiracy theories.
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Osaka27174 Posts
There are a couple dozen new cases a day in Tokyo, but almost none in the Kansai area where I live. My school is back to a full time schedule with social distancing measures in place. It is impossible to keep everyone separated though, at lunch times, during class changes, etc everyone is mingling.
About a quarter of the teachers here are using face shields, and the rest are using masks. Exactly zero students are using face shields, and 100% are using masks. I am not looking forward to using either next month when the temperatures will hit the mid 30s.
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When you say that there are social distancing measures in place, at school, can you elaborate? How are classes structured? Very few students at a time, all spread out (so no group work)? Do all the students rotate in throughout the day, or do you see far fewer every day because there isn't enough time in a school day to see everyone you normally would, given these reduced class sizes? (I have no idea how our US schools are going to deal with these issues if/when they reopen in September, especially given that the students are ultimately interacting in the hallways and cafeterias anyway.)
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State is going to start "requiring" masks for people in public spaces where they can't social distance (mostly indoors). Apparently they started "requiring" workers in the same conditions to wear masks earlier this month, which coincides with an uptick in masks worn by workers (and branded masks in particular) I've noticed recently.
However only maybe half the workers I've encountered since the "requirement" was in place have been wearing masks (less than that wearing them properly/consistently). So it seems enforcement is a ymmv situation.
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On June 24 2020 01:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2020 23:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 23 2020 23:29 Gorsameth wrote:You would think athletes would be more health conscious and be extra careful considering how crippling lung damage would be to their careers but I guess not... He's made a few controversial remarks in the past about vaccinations for coronavirus, so I don't think he took the situation as seriously as most athletes. That's such a PR screw up, I'm surprised he doesn't have people around him who at least could tell him it's damaging for his reputation.
if hes dumb enough to spout such nonsense in the first place you could bet that he didnt listen to a word any pr person would say because he thinks hes right. if you genuinely believe youre smarter than the rest then no one is going to stop you from saying stupid shit. just look at the entire trump administration
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Yeah we're keeping our Labor Day wedding plans extremely tenuous at this point because it seems highly likely that some kind of shutdown is going to be needed before too long. The lack of compliance around my neck of the woods gets worse daily.
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On June 24 2020 22:26 farvacola wrote:
Yeah we're keeping our Labor Day wedding plans extremely tenuous at this point because it seems highly likely that some kind of shutdown is going to be needed before too long. The lack of compliance around my neck of the woods gets worse daily.
People are driving me nuts with updates on deadlines for weddings that aren't going to happen, and even if they miraculously legally/logistically could, are going to be highly irresponsible anyway.
I'm trying to be forgiving and understanding (since I'm in the wedding party for some of these) but maaaan it's getting a bit ridiculous at this point with venues dozens of weddings behind and stringing people along to keep their deposits and such.
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EPT
