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United States43405 Posts
On May 04 2020 02:15 Sermokala wrote:
Unlike any other nation in the world's history bar maybe the roman empire America is not a homogeneous population in any way.
I'm very curious about your history education because you make these very strange statements. Firstly, Rome practiced a pretty hardcore policy of Romanization until the very end of the Western Empire. Secondly, Brazil? Russia? Yugoslavia? Mexico? Argentina? Anywhere in the old Ottoman Empire? Italy?
The idea that America is unique because it's had multiple migrations to it is really bizarre.
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Most countries national story is a comforting lie about homogeneity. Most European countries are made up of groups that would had considered themselves distinctly different at the birth of USA, speaking different languages with different cultural customs and many still do today. American individualism being a product of distinct cultures mixing seem very unlikely especially when there are different kinds of individualism (for instance I would observe the French and Germans are hierarchical in formal situations but not in casual situations, the "scandinavians" are very individualistic in personal matters, but also have a very collective mindset to social matters) but such observations are probably beyond the scope of coronavirus responses.
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On May 04 2020 03:40 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Most countries national story is a comforting lie about homogeneity. Most European countries are made up of groups that would had considered themselves distinctly different at the birth of USA, speaking different languages with different cultural customs and many still do today. American individualism being a product of distinct cultures mixing seem very unlikely especially when there are different kinds of individualism (for instance I would observe the French and Germans are hierarchical in formal situations but not in casual situations, the "scandinavians" are very individualistic in personal matters, but also have a very collective mindset to social matters) but such observations are probably beyond the scope of coronavirus responses.
It's not. LL's version of history is a common thread of ways that Americans tell ourselves that we're different or special when it really isn't true.
It's a cultural ideal that a big chunk of an Americans are indoctrinated with from a very young age. It's not something mysteriously unique about our diversity or anything like that.
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Protests likely happen in all countries. Take it with a grain of salt if all the news you see about US is protesting. Hawaii has a handful of protestors but no one gives them any mind, they’re all haoles (white people from mainland, aka non locals) they do not represent the general population here.
The narrative media should be covering is that people want to see restrictions lessen (in alignment to hospital occupancy) so that we can work on recovering the economy. 6 months down the line when people start being evicted and the unemployment stops coming in, shits gonna get real fucking bad real fucking quick.
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Lalalaland34499 Posts
I know this is relevant given the American protests are about coronavirus but it's also veering slightly off topic for the purpose of this thread...
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On May 03 2020 03:50 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2020 05:33 Vindicare605 wrote:
This is starting to get really crazy.
This whole thing is really putting a big old test on American federalism. Despite how much I agree with Governor Newsom's order to close down the beaches in OC, the fact that the city council is overriding it is also something I agree with, I think local governments should have the ability to have the final say.
Either way, this is turning into a big mess and these protests are clearly not practicing safe social distancing. They better make that vaccine quick. Can you imagine the prolonged damage this is going to have if people just go out regularly (no masks, no social distancing etc.)? Imagine 1-2+ years of this, it's unbelievable. I feel like people aren't gonna take this issue seriously until it affects them personally. It still feels distant to most people, it really hasn't hit home yet. Hello? This virus has spread to every continent, just because it hasn't reached your state or city/town yet doesn't mean it won't. It's extremely sad because by the time everyone does take it seriously it'll be too late, once again. Haven't we seen this story play out before? Preventive measures need to be taken.. not reactive (that's the advantage you get from being hit late). There's nothing greater than the collective health of society. Unfortunately a half ass quarantine for a month won't accomplish much. The reward you get for abiding by a strict quarantine is that you help keep society safe (which includes you, your friends and family) and you get to restart the economy with less likelihood of future setbacks (avoiding exponential growth, having to re-lockdown, over-flooding hospitals etc.). We'll have to see how many more deaths it'll take before everyone starts taking this seriously. It's unbelievable to me how split the country is, especially relative to the Asian nations. You would think that something as serious as a pandemic would help bring people together. I still think it will eventually but it'll be at the expense of others. Human nature at its finest, i guess. It's sad because we're causing the death of others, to me that's the worst form of selfishness. Nothing else to say.
The problem is that the measurments are have major impacts as well, so you can't just close the country and lock up everybody for as long as you want, stop the virus in its track and expect everything to be good.
Quarantines are very complicated! Several Asian countries never even had them, because they were so good at avoiding spread in other ways. While effective, mass quarentines should be an abolute last resort. I doubt we will ever see this again anywhere, as the social, psychological and economic consequenzes will prove to be way too high. It is much wiser and cheaper to adopt the strategies of South Korea and Taiwan.
If you look at China, reopening while keeping the virus in check is perfectly possible, and there has been no 2nd waves, which seem to be a major concern. China also never locked down more than 10% of its population.
I do not like this martyr thinking, believing that maximum sacrifice is the best way to succeed. It is a virus, not some kind of evil god. While dangerous, a rational approach is the best, not panic.
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On May 04 2020 05:18 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2020 03:50 TT1 wrote:On May 02 2020 05:33 Vindicare605 wrote:https://twitter.com/NBCLA/status/1256318950826078208This is starting to get really crazy. This whole thing is really putting a big old test on American federalism. Despite how much I agree with Governor Newsom's order to close down the beaches in OC, the fact that the city council is overriding it is also something I agree with, I think local governments should have the ability to have the final say. Either way, this is turning into a big mess and these protests are clearly not practicing safe social distancing. They better make that vaccine quick. Can you imagine the prolonged damage this is going to have if people just go out regularly (no masks, no social distancing etc.)? Imagine 1-2+ years of this, it's unbelievable. I feel like people aren't gonna take this issue seriously until it affects them personally. It still feels distant to most people, it really hasn't hit home yet. Hello? This virus has spread to every continent, just because it hasn't reached your state or city/town yet doesn't mean it won't. It's extremely sad because by the time everyone does take it seriously it'll be too late, once again. Haven't we seen this story play out before? Preventive measures need to be taken.. not reactive (that's the advantage you get from being hit late). There's nothing greater than the collective health of society. Unfortunately a half ass quarantine for a month won't accomplish much. The reward you get for abiding by a strict quarantine is that you help keep society safe (which includes you, your friends and family) and you get to restart the economy with less likelihood of future setbacks (avoiding exponential growth, having to re-lockdown, over-flooding hospitals etc.). We'll have to see how many more deaths it'll take before everyone starts taking this seriously. It's unbelievable to me how split the country is, especially relative to the Asian nations. You would think that something as serious as a pandemic would help bring people together. I still think it will eventually but it'll be at the expense of others. Human nature at its finest, i guess. It's sad because we're causing the death of others, to me that's the worst form of selfishness. Nothing else to say. The problem is that the measurments are have major impacts as well, so you can't just close the country and lock up everybody for as long as you want, stop the virus in its track and expect everything to be good. Quarantines are very complicated! Several Asian countries never even had them, because they were so good at avoiding spread in other ways. While effective, mass quarentines should be an abolute last resort. I doubt we will ever see this again anywhere, as the social, psychological and economic consequenzes will prove to be way too high. It is much wiser and cheaper to adopt the strategies of South Korea and Taiwan. If you look at China, reopening while keeping the virus in check is perfectly possible, and there has been no 2nd waves, which seem to be a major concern. China also never locked down more than 10% of its population. I do not like this martyr thinking, believing that maximum sacrifice is the best way to succeed. It is a virus, not some kind of evil god. While dangerous, a rational approach is the best, not panic.
China reported <100 cases/day for weeks before opening. The US report 30k/day.
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Reopening while keeping the virus in check is possible once you have the virus in check. Afaik that is pretty much the plan of most nations currently. Lockdown to reduce the virus to levels where you can individually track all cases again.
The US is not at that point. The US is not even reducing cases currently, they are still growing every day.
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The other part of lifting a lockdown is having adequate PPE and testing which the US is still severely lacking.
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On May 04 2020 05:18 Slydie wrote:
If you look at China, reopening while keeping the virus in check is perfectly possible, and there has been no 2nd waves, which seem to be a major concern. China also never locked down more than 10% of its population.
I do not like this martyr thinking, believing that maximum sacrifice is the best way to succeed. It is a virus, not some kind of evil god. While dangerous, a rational approach is the best, not panic.
China did a lockdown on *all* areas even slightly impacted by the virus when they had 800 overall reported cases, with the hardest one in Wuhan :
- no going outside, only ONE per household every two days to buy food
- blocking all ingoing and outgoing highways, airports, public transportation, isolating the towns, fuck you if you were visiting someone, there was less than 24h advance notice.
- publicly marking all buildings where there was a case of Covid, actively telling the population to delate people with symptoms
- shutting down all entrances to community/villages bar one, with a curfew, to control all incoming and outgoing movements at the lowest level.
- shutting down *all* non-vital industries for minimum 3 weeks.
AND that lockdown lasted two and a half months.
This is what it took to completely (well, publicly at least) shut it off, and avoid a second wave, and they could only do it because the whole country wasn't affected, yet. You can't do the same in the west as whole countries are affected, and especially in the US due to the mentality there. Only Spain came close I guess, but they did it a lot later...
I don't understand. Yesterday you were telling that 2 months was much too long, and now you are praising how China did it "without locking the whole country".
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Here's an update of Singapore. Previous update:
https://www.liquiddota.com/forum/general/556693-coronavirus-and-you?page=119#2367
Last I updated 3 weeks back, we were at 2500 total cases. After an average of about a thousand cases a day, today we're at 18k. Sounds very terrible but it's actually not for Singaporeans.
Basically majority (85%+?) of the cases are our migrant workers, who are mostly housed in purpose built dormitories that are fairly isolated from the local neighbourhoods. These migrant workers mostly work in our construction industry, cleaning etc, dirty/labour jobs that Singaporeans don't want to do. Risk of community spread from them should be quite low because most of the migrant workers are forced to be quarantined in the dormitories and can't go out for a period.
Healthy migrant workers in essential sectors has been screened have been shifted out of dormitories into alternative housing. These housing includes some vacant public housing projects, military camps and even cruise ships. That's right, cruise ships. Their movements are still fairly restricted, but at least by separating them from quarantined workers in dormitories, we still have access to their valuable labour.
On a community level, the number of cases has dropped quite a lot 1 month into the pseudo 'lock down'. Yesterday, we had 650 new cases, of which only 10 were Singaporeans/permanent residents. For the past week, we have been averaging roughly this amount of community cases as well, down from the 100+ a month back.
Is our pseudo 'lock down' working? I guess so. We still have 1 more month to go before restrictions are eased (not lifted). The government did forget about the risk our migrant workers faced, but I do think they have done ALOT to rectify the situation. It's hard work when you have big giant clusters because of how many of them live in the purpose built dormitories. At least the situation has been stable, and hopefully will improve soon.
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On May 04 2020 03:28 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2020 02:15 Sermokala wrote:
Unlike any other nation in the world's history bar maybe the roman empire America is not a homogeneous population in any way. I'm very curious about your history education because you make these very strange statements. Firstly, Rome practiced a pretty hardcore policy of Romanization until the very end of the Western Empire. Secondly, Brazil? Russia? Yugoslavia? Mexico? Argentina? Anywhere in the old Ottoman Empire? Italy? The idea that America is unique because it's had multiple migrations to it is really bizarre.
The romanization was for large parts of the empire voluntary,thats why it could last for such a long time. There was a lot to like about rome and romanization,a well organised and structured society and many conquered regions where eventually quiet happy to be part of the roman empire.
America can not be compared to the roman empire or any other nation in the world and in that way it is very unique,but in a positive way.
It is true that america is not a homogeneous population but the remarkable thing about america is that despite not beeing a homogenous population it managed to develop a very strong national identity across all the different population groups. Americans identify themselves as an american first,and as an irish,italian etc second.
Something that was lacking in for example the former ussr where the different population groups always maintained a strong national identity of their own which eventually contributed to the collapse of the ussr when the opportunity was there.
Maybe the difference is that in the usa all the different population groups never had their own state to begin with and to fall back to.They where part of the united states of america from the start of the nation and every individual state was a mixed bag from the start at least to some extend.
If america did start with say an irish state,an italian state,a dutch state,an english state and an afro american state then it would be quiet different but that is not the case.
Sry for this of topic post,The usa is a very interesting nation but this discussion maybe is better suited for a different thread.
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A little bit back on thread topic.
My husband works in IT support (adminning databases) and many customers who were unpersuadable for years finally decided to give remote access to DBAs when corona hit. Not all of them though =( for the coming month he'll have to go to the customer's office to migrate their databases... desperately need to stay calm and hope they at least do the distancing/disinfection procedures.
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On May 04 2020 14:43 Mohdoo wrote:And similarly, now we apparently have a great method of getting oxygen levels way up, without surgery: https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/how-a-free-extremely-low-risk-er-technique-is-saving-lives-from-coronavirus-215640425.htmlThis is all so encouraging. People need to remember that the situation looked as grim as it did because scientists and doctors hadn't had enough time to analyze it yet. We are getting there. We will likely find a lot of ways to decrease death rates without vaccines or anything. Still need vaccines of course, but we will likely find a lot of bandaid solutions.
Proning isn't new though. I remember reading an article about how nurses did it and how it works in a hospital in Holland at the start of March. It is pretty labor intensive and requires special training, but definitely appears to help. As long as hospitals aren't overwhelmed and have the staff to do this, it's a fantastic option.
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Proning is definitely not new. They even make mechanical hospital beds that can prone a patient and they cost an unbelievable amount of money. However it is typically only done in the ICU and not in ERs, evidently until now. I only skimmed the article but it seems to only provide anecdotal evidence for how effective it is in improving patient outcomes.
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We have been proning (having people lay flat on their stomachs) people at a Northeastern US hospital for the past 5 weeks. It does significantly improve oxygenation in most patients. Originally we were only proning people in the icu, specifically people who were intubated. Due to its success, now we have those patients who can safely lay on thier stomachs do so on thier own, aka self proning.
The big issues with proning are that a significant portion of the severely ill are elderly/demented and/or morbidly obese, meaning self proning is unsafe.
Edit: added location
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New measures for railway stations in the netherlands.
People have to keep 4 steps distance on the escelator. Normally people stand 2 by 2 on the escelator (standing on the right and walking up the escelator on the left) and the escelators are always packed with a short waiting line after a train has arived
Now it is 1 person every 5 steps,meaning capacity of the escelator is 10% tops (even less as people wont be able to walk up anymore either which slightly increases capacity)
The rest of the system is supposed to run at 20%-25% capacity so i wonder if the escelators wont be a huge bottleneck in getting people of the platform with long lines forming in front of them,which will also have to keep 1.5 meter distance between every person. At first look it seems like this can not work but lets hope it can.
There are also normal stairs but people will have to keep their distance on those as well. No facemasks announced yet,though they are obligated on a few international trains.
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Only Spain came close I guess, but they did it a lot later...
I live in Spain, so that is my main reference. The lockdown here was 50 days, which is dramatic. I believe even more people were locked up than in China, and the rules were extremely tight.
I hope the information about the effect of opening up different areas of society flows well between countries. The good thing about the US taking big risks in that regard is that others can watch and see what works and what doesn't.
In Norway, the authorothies released an estimate of the current reproduction number of the virus, but with major insecurity. The effect of lockdowns etc. do barely register until after a week, and are not certain until after 3 weeks. The same is true for opening up.
Oh, and Spain had its first day with under 200 deaths. Things are looking bright. There is a major debate about facemasks, which are not obligatory except in public transport and for some professions.
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EPT
