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Tiananmen Square deniers.
I've seen it all.
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On October 10 2019 06:14 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 06:08 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 05:53 Excludos wrote:On October 10 2019 05:47 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 05:43 Excludos wrote:On October 10 2019 05:33 chuchuchu wrote:
Even Wikipedia has debates about whether there is a massacre in Tiananmen (1989). There are no debates on Wikipedia about whether the massacre happened. People are allowed to debate on the wiki debate page, and on there anyone and whomever can say whatever the heck they please. That never makes it onto the actual article itself, which requires sources for everything you post. And there are plenty of sources for Tiananmen square. There's fucking photos of it! And they have existed since before Photoshop was a thing. Are you questioning my ability to use the network? Yes. Quite profoundly: https://observers.france24.com/en/20120604-new-photos-emerge-showing-tiananmen-square-just-after-1989-massacre-china-student-protest-commemorationAnd thanks for making me google these for you. They make me sick to my stomach. There are more, btw. Any google search will do. They are not censored over here (yet) The "tank man" is from the day after the massacre, not from the massacre itself. https://baijiahao.baidu.com/s?id=1561088272745847&wfr=spider&for=pcI really hope that you can look at these. What is the photo of the slaughter? What is evidence? What is the real slaughter However, it seems that it is hard to say clearly with Westerners and whites. After all, it is a country that relies on the slave trade and the ethnic groups of Africa and the Americas are extinct. I would like to know that Americans are afraid when they are lying on the land where Indians and blacks are buried. So far you have compared the Hong Kong protesters with the KKK, I think you called me stupid, it's hard to know for sure with your English, you are denying the tiananmen square massacre happened and now you start to get racist about "whites". I wonder where you'll go next!
He (or they) are going to present this thread to his boss and call it a day. Job done.
Nobody defends any government as irrationally as this (new) user does unless it is his job. Please ignore him, propaganda and derailing opposing threads is his job.
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On October 10 2019 06:14 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 06:08 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 05:53 Excludos wrote:On October 10 2019 05:47 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 05:43 Excludos wrote:On October 10 2019 05:33 chuchuchu wrote:
Even Wikipedia has debates about whether there is a massacre in Tiananmen (1989). There are no debates on Wikipedia about whether the massacre happened. People are allowed to debate on the wiki debate page, and on there anyone and whomever can say whatever the heck they please. That never makes it onto the actual article itself, which requires sources for everything you post. And there are plenty of sources for Tiananmen square. There's fucking photos of it! And they have existed since before Photoshop was a thing. Are you questioning my ability to use the network? Yes. Quite profoundly: https://observers.france24.com/en/20120604-new-photos-emerge-showing-tiananmen-square-just-after-1989-massacre-china-student-protest-commemorationAnd thanks for making me google these for you. They make me sick to my stomach. There are more, btw. Any google search will do. They are not censored over here (yet) The "tank man" is from the day after the massacre, not from the massacre itself. https://baijiahao.baidu.com/s?id=1561088272745847&wfr=spider&for=pcI really hope that you can look at these. What is the photo of the slaughter? What is evidence? What is the real slaughter However, it seems that it is hard to say clearly with Westerners and whites. After all, it is a country that relies on the slave trade and the ethnic groups of Africa and the Americas are extinct. I would like to know that Americans are afraid when they are lying on the land where Indians and blacks are buried. So far you have compared the Hong Kong protesters with the KKK, I think you called me stupid, it's hard to know for sure with your English, you are denying the tiananmen square massacre happened and now you start to get racist about "whites". I wonder where you'll go next!
Westerners still believe that they are on the side of democracy and freedom.
Instead of standing in the US-China trade war and the Sino-US dispute, it stands on the side of the United States.
Hong Kong and the NBA are just a continuation of this struggle.
You are like a high school student.
Disappointed
Is the fact of the statement racial discrimination? very funny. Just like you won't praise me for accepting the Cultural Revolution.
Is it freedom of speech?
When things are reversed, when a Chinese person in turn accuses the West of being racist, it is brainwashed and persecuted.
I am only suspecting the tears of the crocodile. Because Western society is the beneficiary of the collapse of Chinese society.
If I am racist, I will not mention that I love nasa and love Kennedy.
As you are ridiculous about my remarks, I also treat your remarks like this.
You call me the AI of high school students.
Indeed, because my native language is Chinese, using Google Translate allows me to express a lot of things faster.
I at least think that my English is better than your Chinese.
Of course you won't care, but still laugh at my English. Emm, this is what I want to say. Because you are born to think that you are right, think that everyone should speak English and think that you are on the side of justice.
Yes, I said it is a fact, and you should believe in what I believe. It is not difficult to explain why there are always many missionaries in the West, and even in the most glorious time in history, the East did not send a missionary to the West.
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On October 10 2019 03:46 chuchuchu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 03:26 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 10 2019 03:03 CxWiLL wrote:On October 10 2019 02:35 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 10 2019 02:23 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 01:47 Excludos wrote:On October 10 2019 01:12 chuchuchu wrote:
All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different. I can not for the life of me guess whether this is a troll, of if he's actually brainwashed enough to think that a totalitarian regime is the same as Japan and England because they have a hyped up Emperor/Queen who are as such in name only, and doesn't actually have any real power. On October 10 2019 01:31 jy_9876543210 wrote:
Well... he's just posting whatever he had learned. The big machine doesn't care about TL forum, it's too small. He just feels that he needs to do something to help no matter how little, although the entire post sounds worse than a high school essay... You severely underestimate the Chinese troll farm. They care about your mom's Facebook posts. Similarly, the Chinese also think that you have been brainwashed by the West. You often talk about freedom of speech and democracy. But when the Chinese spoke themselves, you said that the Chinese were wrong and the Chinese shut up. You always talk about your own thoughts and negate other thoughts. The Chinese never say to the TV that the American values are wrong and the Western social thoughts are wrong. American things, Americans are the masters. I want to ask, can Europeans make their own decisions? Can the British be the masters themselves? I talk about Japan and the United Kingdom. If you think that countries like Japan and the United States are the same, I hope that you can learn more about Japanese society. For example, people who committed suicide because of the emperor's abdication. I talked about Japan and the United Kingdom because, like other countries, they are democratic and free, even with emperors and queens. Similarly, the Chinese believe that they are also democratic and free, even if it does not seem to be at all. But the truth is this. The British can't vote for the Queen. The Japanese can't decide the Emperor. On the contrary, the Japanese Emperor has great influence. Although the Japanese often deny this political issue, Japan's political arena is still a political continuation from the Meiji Restoration before World War II. Think about the Shinzo Abe family. Instead of ridiculing China’s autocracy, is it also ridiculing Japan’s autocracy. I don't think anyone has ridiculed President Bush. I mean two President Bush. I want to give an example. I don't know if you can understand. In the last US election, although more than half of the people supported Hillary, Trump was still elected to the US president because the state voted more. One person, becoming the president of a country, even if he is only supported by half of the people. Is this democracy? Is this half the tyranny of the other half? Should the United States be divided into two countries, is Hillary and Trump half? In addition, I really like Trump's make America great gain, but I remember that if there were any mistakes, there were many parades in the United States, and irony, against Teplang's words. Is this the embodiment of democracy and freedom of speech? It doesn't matter if brainwashed people believe they are not brainwashed. If Chinese people believe they are not being manipulated they are simply manipulated into believing the are not manipulated. Ironic isn't it. It is simple the people/organizations that try to limit knowledge and freedom of speech always do that because they have an agenda. Having an agenda means they want to control what you know because if they succeed in controlling what you know then they also by extension control what you believe. China claiming that foreign news outlets are lying are simply another step in controling what the chinese people believe, because if only chinese news are regarded as trustworthy they control what you believe which means they control you. All governments wants to do this to everyone, manipulation is simply what everyone does. However if you censor the internet and censor news and information you don't like then we live in a totalitarian state, like China. From wiki: "Mainland Chinese Internet censorship programs have censored Web sites that include (among other things):[citation needed] Web sites belonging to "outlawed" or suppressed groups, such as pro-democracy activists and Falun Gong. News sources that often cover topics that are considered defamatory against China, such as police brutality, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests, freedom of speech, and democracy.[64] These sites include Voice of America and the Chinese edition of BBC News.Sites related to the Taiwanese government, media, or other organizations, including sites dedicated to religious content, and most large Taiwanese community websites or blogs. Web sites that contain anything the Chinese authorities regard as obscenity or pornography. Web sites relating to criminal activity. Sites linked with the Dalai Lama, his teachings or the International Tibet Independence Movement. Most blogging sites experience frequent or permanent outages. Web sites deemed as subversive. Other topics censored include: 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests, Xinjiang re-education camps, Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China, and more." Another Chinese are brainwashed and CCP is evil post, yet again. So you boldly claim that Chinese are so brainwashed they don't even know they are brainwashed. How do you know you are in a safe place where all of your informations from western media (especially wiki, which most Chinese people won't read and edit) are all correct fact and neutral. It is just hilarious to see the people live outside of China and never visited China consider themselves more knowlegable about China than people actually living there, by only watching a few video clip and reading some poorly-based reports. I am sorry, I understand you feel affronted, my reply was only directed at user chuchuchu. I don't really believe that chinese in general are brainwashed and I certainly don't think I know anything about your country or that all I know is right. My point is that China as a country is heavily manipulating media, that is a fact there is no way around that. Censoring knowledge or opinion is only done as I explained to further an agenda. Therefore you cannot compare western media manipulation with chinese, it is like comparing a gun to a cannon. We have a free internet where anyone may say whatever they want and everyone is free to read whatever they want. That is a fact and it means arguing that we in the west are the manipulated ones is a moot point, it is true we are manipulated but we are still less manipulated then you. On October 10 2019 03:08 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 02:35 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 10 2019 02:23 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 01:47 Excludos wrote:On October 10 2019 01:12 chuchuchu wrote:
All people are support freedom of speech and democracy,but Japan has a Emperor，England has a Queen，US and France dont have .The same thing looks different. I can not for the life of me guess whether this is a troll, of if he's actually brainwashed enough to think that a totalitarian regime is the same as Japan and England because they have a hyped up Emperor/Queen who are as such in name only, and doesn't actually have any real power. On October 10 2019 01:31 jy_9876543210 wrote:
Well... he's just posting whatever he had learned. The big machine doesn't care about TL forum, it's too small. He just feels that he needs to do something to help no matter how little, although the entire post sounds worse than a high school essay... You severely underestimate the Chinese troll farm. They care about your mom's Facebook posts. Similarly, the Chinese also think that you have been brainwashed by the West. You often talk about freedom of speech and democracy. But when the Chinese spoke themselves, you said that the Chinese were wrong and the Chinese shut up. You always talk about your own thoughts and negate other thoughts. The Chinese never say to the TV that the American values are wrong and the Western social thoughts are wrong. American things, Americans are the masters. I want to ask, can Europeans make their own decisions? Can the British be the masters themselves? I talk about Japan and the United Kingdom. If you think that countries like Japan and the United States are the same, I hope that you can learn more about Japanese society. For example, people who committed suicide because of the emperor's abdication. I talked about Japan and the United Kingdom because, like other countries, they are democratic and free, even with emperors and queens. Similarly, the Chinese believe that they are also democratic and free, even if it does not seem to be at all. But the truth is this. The British can't vote for the Queen. The Japanese can't decide the Emperor. On the contrary, the Japanese Emperor has great influence. Although the Japanese often deny this political issue, Japan's political arena is still a political continuation from the Meiji Restoration before World War II. Think about the Shinzo Abe family. Instead of ridiculing China’s autocracy, is it also ridiculing Japan’s autocracy. I don't think anyone has ridiculed President Bush. I mean two President Bush. I want to give an example. I don't know if you can understand. In the last US election, although more than half of the people supported Hillary, Trump was still elected to the US president because the state voted more. One person, becoming the president of a country, even if he is only supported by half of the people. Is this democracy? Is this half the tyranny of the other half? Should the United States be divided into two countries, is Hillary and Trump half? In addition, I really like Trump's make America great gain, but I remember that if there were any mistakes, there were many parades in the United States, and irony, against Teplang's words. Is this the embodiment of democracy and freedom of speech? It doesn't matter if brainwashed people believe they are not brainwashed. If Chinese people believe they are not being manipulated they are simply manipulated into believing the are not manipulated. Ironic isn't it. It is simple the people/organizations that try to limit knowledge and freedom of speech always do that because they have an agenda. Having an agenda means they want to control what you know because if they succeed in controlling what you know then they also by extension control what you believe. China claiming that foreign news outlets are lying are simply another step in controling what the chinese people believe, because if only chinese news are regarded as trustworthy they control what you believe which means they control you. All governments wants to do this to everyone, manipulation is simply what everyone does. However if you censor the internet and censor news and information you don't like then we live in a totalitarian state, like China. From wiki: "Mainland Chinese Internet censorship programs have censored Web sites that include (among other things):[citation needed] Web sites belonging to "outlawed" or suppressed groups, such as pro-democracy activists and Falun Gong. News sources that often cover topics that are considered defamatory against China, such as police brutality, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests, freedom of speech, and democracy.[64] These sites include Voice of America and the Chinese edition of BBC News.Sites related to the Taiwanese government, media, or other organizations, including sites dedicated to religious content, and most large Taiwanese community websites or blogs. Web sites that contain anything the Chinese authorities regard as obscenity or pornography. Web sites relating to criminal activity. Sites linked with the Dalai Lama, his teachings or the International Tibet Independence Movement. Most blogging sites experience frequent or permanent outages. Web sites deemed as subversive. Other topics censored include: 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests, Xinjiang re-education camps, Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China, and more." I don't want to talk about these issues, because your approach is not through personal experience, but the Western media. I can simply say a few things. You can go and find out, maybe there is a deeper feeling. 1. Falun Gong preaches that they can acquire the same abilities as Superman. They are basically seriously ill, and they don’t have to go to the hospital. They must respect the Lord as their father, obey all commands, and basically self-immolation. I have an uncle, because he have practiced Falun Gong and he was ridiculed by everyone around me. It is true that it is unbelievable that because of socialism, the Chinese are more convinced of science. 2. The problem of Tibet, the territorial issue need not be said more. The primitive religion of Tibet was ruled in Tibet. At that time, the Chinese Communist Party’s army hoped to peacefully reunite Tibet. However, they found that Tibetan religion actually practiced slavery. Tibet’s situation is like Leo. Pod II is like his Congolese Free State. Of course you see a kindly exile, telling you some mysterious oriental religious thoughts, but he never told you that he used to be a slave owner, using the religious utensils of the human skin, and the things like the sister drum. I hope that you will not be afraid at night. You can also check Mao Zedong's position in Tibet. You may not believe it. He is considered to be a generation of Tibetan religious leaders (there are paper documents, museums I see). 3. Organ problems. China is not a country that is always complete, or even a relatively complete law. We are working hard, but I think that China, which was chaotic years ago, is developing too fast, so we often say that we used In less than 30 years, it has gone through hundreds of years of Western history, and modern civilization and primitive agricultural civilization coexist. If you are curious, in the public network search, sell your kidneys to buy Apple mobile news, you may understand that organ problems are not government manipulation, but the product of low education, unsound laws, and chaotic times. It’s gone now, because everything has changed. The Chinese government does not need to buy and sell organs to make money. This is very naive. Do you think China is authoritarian? Only the government needs a word, where to buy and sell organs. 4, Beijing 1989, you can go to Wikipedia to see, because I also saw where, from a person who accepts Chinese culture, I will not believe that: I can not die, they can bleed, but I am going to the United States . There are also the same experiencers who said that the massacre did not exist. But does it exist? You can search for the complete video of the tank, which is the video of the person being taken away after the circumvention. You can also search for photos of some police and soldiers being burned on the flyover. It is true that they have treated people with restraint, but unfortunately people sometimes do not treat them with restraint, just like Hong Kong now. I'm sorry but I don't care. The issues you describe above are topics that the Chinese government censor, either A) You have researched sources that are banned in your country and thus learned truths that your government wants to hide from you. Or B) You are writing the information that the Chinese goverment are feeding you while at the same time saying that it is not allowed to fact check this information. So either you have broken your countries rules and gone out of your way to research what you are not allowed to research, which in and of itself is proof that you don't agree with the rules of your country. Or you are just ignorantly repeating the drivel spoonfed to your by the government. Obviously, I am now active in the same environment as you. I don't know where we both have information asymmetry, or if you are serving the UK or the CIA, so you know something that won't be known to the public. You are using a limited amount of things you see in the Western media (in fact, most, not all) to question a person who has personal experience while living in China and the West, one that has access to almost all information networks (China) The network administrator is not scary for 20 years. At least I have downloaded some Japanese movies in the last 10 years, so you can imagine what we can find on the Chinese network.) So what you see, in the media or on the internet, I have seen it. If you claim that you have more information than me. I can only think that it is like Marco Polo who once thought China is the country of gold. And because there is something about China, so many Chinese are very interested in it, even when they are discussing with their parents, like a legendary novel. However, he failed to launch a new Crusade through this statement (whether Westerners like the Eastern Expedition or launch a global war, this is a humorous ridicule, I hope you can understand and respect my values)
All I said was one thing, the chinese ban certain information and censor knowledge, his includes but is not limited to the internet and the great information wall of China. Since that is all I said and you strongly argue I don't know what I am talking about, are you denying the existence of internet censorship in china? It is merely the western media making up its existence, in reality no knowledge is banned in china the internet is free?
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On October 10 2019 06:27 Xamo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 06:14 Penev wrote:On October 10 2019 06:08 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 05:53 Excludos wrote:On October 10 2019 05:47 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 05:43 Excludos wrote:On October 10 2019 05:33 chuchuchu wrote:
Even Wikipedia has debates about whether there is a massacre in Tiananmen (1989). There are no debates on Wikipedia about whether the massacre happened. People are allowed to debate on the wiki debate page, and on there anyone and whomever can say whatever the heck they please. That never makes it onto the actual article itself, which requires sources for everything you post. And there are plenty of sources for Tiananmen square. There's fucking photos of it! And they have existed since before Photoshop was a thing. Are you questioning my ability to use the network? Yes. Quite profoundly: https://observers.france24.com/en/20120604-new-photos-emerge-showing-tiananmen-square-just-after-1989-massacre-china-student-protest-commemorationAnd thanks for making me google these for you. They make me sick to my stomach. There are more, btw. Any google search will do. They are not censored over here (yet) The "tank man" is from the day after the massacre, not from the massacre itself. https://baijiahao.baidu.com/s?id=1561088272745847&wfr=spider&for=pcI really hope that you can look at these. What is the photo of the slaughter? What is evidence? What is the real slaughter However, it seems that it is hard to say clearly with Westerners and whites. After all, it is a country that relies on the slave trade and the ethnic groups of Africa and the Americas are extinct. I would like to know that Americans are afraid when they are lying on the land where Indians and blacks are buried. So far you have compared the Hong Kong protesters with the KKK, I think you called me stupid, it's hard to know for sure with your English, you are denying the tiananmen square massacre happened and now you start to get racist about "whites". I wonder where you'll go next! He (or they) are going to present this thread to his boss and call it a day. Job done. Nobody defends any government as irrationally as this (new) user does unless it is his job. Please ignore him, propaganda and derailing opposing threads is his job.
Aww but it's funny :/
I mean I know what you are talking about but how is what this account is spewing in this thread in any way productive for the Chinese government? It is not exactly convincing anyone, for the most part it's just amusing people. Well me at least.
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You guys aren't going to convince anyone who joined since June.
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On October 10 2019 06:29 chuchuchu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 06:14 Penev wrote:On October 10 2019 06:08 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 05:53 Excludos wrote:On October 10 2019 05:47 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 05:43 Excludos wrote:On October 10 2019 05:33 chuchuchu wrote:
Even Wikipedia has debates about whether there is a massacre in Tiananmen (1989). There are no debates on Wikipedia about whether the massacre happened. People are allowed to debate on the wiki debate page, and on there anyone and whomever can say whatever the heck they please. That never makes it onto the actual article itself, which requires sources for everything you post. And there are plenty of sources for Tiananmen square. There's fucking photos of it! And they have existed since before Photoshop was a thing. Are you questioning my ability to use the network? Yes. Quite profoundly: https://observers.france24.com/en/20120604-new-photos-emerge-showing-tiananmen-square-just-after-1989-massacre-china-student-protest-commemorationAnd thanks for making me google these for you. They make me sick to my stomach. There are more, btw. Any google search will do. They are not censored over here (yet) The "tank man" is from the day after the massacre, not from the massacre itself. https://baijiahao.baidu.com/s?id=1561088272745847&wfr=spider&for=pcI really hope that you can look at these. What is the photo of the slaughter? What is evidence? What is the real slaughter However, it seems that it is hard to say clearly with Westerners and whites. After all, it is a country that relies on the slave trade and the ethnic groups of Africa and the Americas are extinct. I would like to know that Americans are afraid when they are lying on the land where Indians and blacks are buried. So far you have compared the Hong Kong protesters with the KKK, I think you called me stupid, it's hard to know for sure with your English, you are denying the tiananmen square massacre happened and now you start to get racist about "whites". I wonder where you'll go next! Westerners still believe that they are on the side of democracy and freedom. Instead of standing in the US-China trade war and the Sino-US dispute, it stands on the side of the United States. Hong Kong and the NBA are just a continuation of this struggle. You are like a high school student. Disappointed Is the fact of the statement racial discrimination? very funny. Just like you won't praise me for accepting the Cultural Revolution. Is it freedom of speech? When things are reversed, when a Chinese person in turn accuses the West of being racist, it is brainwashed and persecuted. I am only suspecting the tears of the crocodile. Because Western society is the beneficiary of the collapse of Chinese society. If I am racist, I will not mention that I love nasa and love Kennedy. As you are ridiculous about my remarks, I also treat your remarks like this. You call me the AI of high school students. Indeed, because my native language is Chinese, using Google Translate allows me to express a lot of things faster. I at least think that my English is better than your Chinese. Of course you won't care, but still laugh at my English. Emm, this is what I want to say. Because you are born to think that you are right, think that everyone should speak English and think that you are on the side of justice. Yes, I said it is a fact, and you should believe in what I believe. It is not difficult to explain why there are always many missionaries in the West, and even in the most glorious time in history, the East did not send a missionary to the West.
No one laughs at your English. In fact the only mention seem to praise you attempts to write English. But why not make things up. After all you already made up that wikipedia debates over Tiananmen Square massacre, which it does not. Disgusting.
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On October 10 2019 06:20 chuchuchu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 06:10 HaFnium wrote:On October 10 2019 05:18 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 04:57 jy_9876543210 wrote:On October 10 2019 04:48 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 04:41 jy_9876543210 wrote:On October 10 2019 04:35 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 03:57 phodacbiet wrote:On October 10 2019 02:46 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 02:13 Excludos wrote:
[quote]
I hope you understand that while this is an interesting conversation, your views are inherently skewed by the propaganda you've been fed every day. We know how the Chinese media works (and it's not just China btw. America has much of the same problems, and most of us here do recognise it as such). You have already made made several false statements and made comparisons that does not make sense (Comparing China to England because England has a mock Queen for instance). As such everything you say will be taken with the biggest grain of salt imaginable
I do think it's interesting what the ordinary Chinese thinks, but it truthfully doesn't matter. You don't get to commit human rights violations and consider it ok because "The ordinary Chinese thinks so". Guess who doesn't think it's ok? Hong Kong and its citizens. Very interesting, wrong comparison I just want to show that some forms of democracy and freedom will change, just as discrimination against blacks is definitely not one of freedom of speech in the United States. Although Martin Luther King was killed. Similarly, China's democracy and freedom are not so much the same as the United States, because the so-called autocracy and dictator seem to be like the Queen of England and the Emperor of Japan. And when you talk about it, we should think about Hong Kong and its citizens. I am very eager to ask, do you know how many Hong Kong people participated in this Chinese National Day celebration? Including young people, college students, government officials, police, famous stars, and ordinary people. Do you think we should think about Hong Kong people, then do you know how many people in Hong Kong support the police parade? The police in Hong Kong, the government in Hong Kong, Hong Kong, so many condemns the violent protesters, and the ordinary people, shouting at the bbc reporters, this is Hong Kong, China, the taxi driver who supports the law revision, isn't it Hong Kong? What you see seems to be the collective public opinion of Hong Kong, actually because those people have amplified this reaction through radical methods. Think about it, if it is really a problem of the society and the Chinese government, the Hong Kong government, the ordinary people of Hong Kong (Is it not ordinary people and the grassroots officials?) Are these attitudes still not showing anything? Think about how good the credibility of the Hong Kong government is, and the same group of people are not trusted now. The vast majority of protesters on the streets of Hong Kong are college students, young people, and young unemployed people. Is this a normal antibody or a collective carnival of young people, like an American youth who likes to take drugs? China has experienced two very painful students, and the young people have dominated the political violent protests, almost smashing the entire country. However, these protests did not make more than a billion people ignorant, and the ordinary Chinese who were at a loss knew how to live well. The Chinese have supported all the legal acts of Hong Kong and have wanted to split China and Hong Kong for many years. There is nothing too fierce. We support Hong Kong, support democracy, support freedom, and even to some extent, support universal suffrage in Hong Kong. However, what you have to understand is what is the slogan of Hong Kong's independence and violence? This is what the Hong Kong player and the NBA rocket manager said. This is also why the Chinese currently call it a terrorist, because terrorists in the Middle East often call themselves freedom fighters. If Hong Kong, China, is not dominated by the majority of Chinese people and by the majority of Hong Kong people, then who will decide? Can Texas and California declare independence today and expel all blacks and people from other states？ So，why China give up HK？and Violent protestors demanding the expulsion of mainlanders？ In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons。 (you can find it in many Hong Kong movies，In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons (you can find out from many Hong Kong movies, including asking mainlanders if they have seen Apple phones made in China, and mocking the mainland for lack of high-rise power and modern technology, the same thing is still happening to Chinese people in Europe, the United States, etc.)It used to be Korea and Japan.). You bring up valid points, but what you seem to miss out on is how this all started in the first place. There is currently a Sino-British joint declaration agreement between China and the UK dated back in 1984 and went into effect in 1997 stating that HK will have its own government, is able to pass its own laws, and that their way of life would not change for 50 years. You can read a bit on that agreement here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration. This means that in this agreement, China agreed that its PRC principles would not be practiced in HK until 2047. Despite this agreement, in 2014, China proposed a reform to HK's electoral system, a clear infringement of the agreement. Since China agreed that HK could remain autonomous and have authority over their own government, then why is China screening candidates for HK's Chief Executive? This started around 2014 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests), and afterwards the British Foreign Office announced that Chinese officials now treat this declaration as void. You say China support HK's democracy, then why not let the HK'ers elect who they want, instead of screening who they want the HK people to elect? The HK'ers are upset because they were promised 50 years, but China is trying to impose only 22 years into the treaty. Does this mean China's words aren't even worth 50% of what they put on papers? So flash forward to the current protest, how did it start? Well, China wanted to pass an extradite bill in HK, another infringement of the current agreement. HK'ers did not want this law, which they are within their own rights to deny since China agreed it will not impose, yet China still adamantly demand that this law be passed. If you look over at the 5 demands HK is currently protesting for, they are extremely reasonable given that China started this by breaking their words. 1. Full withdrawal of the extradition bill - Very valid demand, considering China signed an agreement that they will not be imposing their laws in HK until 2047. Last I checked, it's only 2019. 2. Inquiry into police brutality - Also valid, the people would like to investigate police's conduct. The police are meant to protect the people, not beat them up when they are protesting. 3. Retracting the classification of protesters as rioters - This started because China broke its words, so the people were upset and protested. Had China not broke its words, this wouldn't have happened. The people marched because China lied, not because they randomly rioted out of no where. This point can be a case by case basis with some standards since I understand not all protesters are good, some can be destructive, and we should judge them fairly. 4. Amnesty for arrested protesters - Same as point 3. 5. Dual universal suffrage, for both their Legislative and Chief Executive - Again, China signed an agreement that allows the HK'ers to manage their own government. If they are true to their words, let the HK'ers decide how they want their government to be ran. My main point is that HK originally didn't protest for independence. This was NOT how the protest started. They started because China lied and backed out of their own words only 22 years into a 50 years signed agreement. It is only escalating because instead of admitting they were in the wrong, China cracked down on the HK citizens. HK citizens now are entertaining independence because they realized Mainland China does not keep its word. To use a Starcraft analogy, this is similar to Mengsk, Reynor, and Kerrigan working together, yet Mengsk abandoned Kerrigan on that one planet (forgot the name). When Reynor became rightfully pissed for what Mengsk did and turned on him, Mengsk called Reynor a terrorist. China is pulling a Mengsk right now. If China is true to its words. Come back in 28 years and let the HK'ers do what they want to do with their government for now. 1. China hopes to sign extradition regulations with Hong Kong (extending criminal offenders because there have been criminals who have committed murder and rape in mainland China and have been cast into Hong Kong. The Chinese government and other countries such as the United States also have extradition regulations, and the Hong Kong government has other regions. The state has extradition regulations). Why is it rejected? This is not because mainland China requires the implementation of laws in Hong Kong, but hopes to sign regulations with Hong Kong. This is actually very strange. It is actually an agreement between a country and a country within a country. 2. I hope that you can read the Sino-British Joint Declaration carefully. He has not given the British any rights after this. You can blame the Chinese government, but because of this, I think other countries are involved. This is still the Beijing government of China and the Hong Kong region. problem. In addition, the Chinese government's commitment is to keep Hong Kong unchanged for 50 years. I don't know how you understand it. I have two thoughts. One is to continue Hong Kong before the colony in 1997, and the second is to follow the basic law after 1997. Hong Kong. Before 1997, Hong Kong was a colony. Hong Kong people did not even have British nationality. The leaders of Hong Kong were all British whites. They were also British nationals, both the first and the second, including the Hong Kong Constitution, the Sino-British Joint Declaration. During the British colonial period, there was no universal suffrage. I don't know where Hong Kong's universal suffrage comes from. This violates the Constitution of Hong Kong - the Basic Law. In addition, without universal suffrage, it cannot mean that they have no democracy. Hong Kong's politics is closer to the Swiss political system, and each leader does not adopt the Swiss rotation system. Keeping it for 50 years, isn't it just that there is no universal suffrage? Once the universal suffrage is not a violation of the China Commitment and the Sino-British Joint Declaration, and the Hong Kong Basic Law? Although I think that Hong Kong has been harming itself for 50 years, the development of first-tier cities in China is much better than that of Hong Kong. For me, I have lived in Shanghai for a long time, and Hong Kong is like a rural area. Of course, I am not actually, most of them. This is also true in Europe, and I have a stark contrast to the views of Japanese cities. 3. The Chinese government of Beijing and all Chinese have never opposed liberal democracy and legal protests. However, after the Cultural Revolution, the Chinese were sensitive to the protests because we realized that such collective behavior would often evolve into violence. For example, China’s previous protests, the US bombing of the Yugoslav embassy, and Japan’s activities to commemorate the death of soldiers in World War II. This kind of parade in China has produced extreme violence, as happened in Hong Kong. If you don't trust the Chinese and don't trust the Chinese government, don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised, don't believe it? Don't you believe in Western media? Go look for their evaluation of the Hong Kong police and the Hong Kong government in history. 4. Special criminals are not advisable. Think about the United States, but the country with the highest proportion of prison population. Of course, I don't want China to become the United States. But think about it. There are many British nationals in the Hong Kong police, white people (maybe I think you still don't believe in the yellow race, but I don't think it is racist). Hong Kong's judicial system, so the judges are British nationality, Australian nationality, 90% of judges are white. You should trust them, not a group of unemployed people, a group of young people who have taken a poison and drink alcohol and have sex on the roadside (although you call it freedom, but often these are blocked by neutral media). Opposite to these violent protesters are peaceful protesters who have long since left the protest, and supporters who support the police, support the Hong Kong government, and support the Chinese government. They are more numerous, but unfortunately they need to work and they do not use violence. So it seems to be weak, and because many of them are older people (you should have heard of Hong Kong's aging), they are not very familiar with the Internet, and the Internet is now a Z-age person (in fact, 1995-2000) Born person). 5. Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people. Hong Kong knows that Hong Kong is bought by Li Ka-shing, and that the Chinese government cannot interfere and support socialism. Everyone has food and housing. Later, the economic decline of Western society, if you are a European, there should be experience, the US economy has recently grown, but it is also uncomfortable. After the 2008 financial turmoil, it has been declining for a long time. China is getting better and better. When China gets better, when they find that the Chinese who once earned 200 yuan a month have the same income and even more money, they find that they can’t be like the colonial era. Next, when it came to China, it became a millionaire, went to bed with more girls, and bought more luxurious cosmetics. So I hope to return to the colonial era and pass violence. (Their slogan is what you saw in this Hong Kong player and the NBA), by robbing mobile phone stores, selling them online, by raising the flags of the United States and the United Kingdom. I saw Swedes, and I think I should understand why, academically, the Sedgmo syndrome. Perhaps Westerners believe that the colonial era is very glorious. "don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised" "Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people." This is trolling for sure... I can hardly find any other explanations. Oh, poor man. In fact, it is very simple. You only need to use Google to search for the gap between the rich and the poor in Hong Kong. Have you been to Hong Kong and China? I am very familiar with it. Yeah yeah I can find Gini index for every country in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equalityBut why do you think that's the reason of the protest? Where did you find that? Who told you that? You are very familiar with it but you don't know the reason? After removing the tax and welfare transfers, Hong Kong’s Gini index was as high as 0.54. If you have been to Chicago and New York, think about where the tramp is, social security (Hong Kong people want to thank the Hong Kong police for their efforts) In addition, you should check that the top ten billionaires in Hong Kong account for Hong Kong's GDP (more than 35%). The disparity between the rich and the poor in Hong Kong has been criticized by the United Nations. If you can visit Hong Kong's own website You will find that Hong Kong officially announced that there are 1.3 million poor people in 7.6 million people in Hong Kong. Perhaps you should use Google to search for the poor in Hong Kong directly, or go to Hong Kong in person. Take a look at the slums in the bustling city. (The slums in mainland China have long since disappeared) Hong Kong is an area without a universal retirement protection system. It is well developed, but his university enrollment rate is only 20%. This is the famous ten universities in Hong Kong. Hong Kong is a developed region and an unbalanced region. You should probably look at the encyclopedia about Li Ka-shing and see his property. We call him Lee half HK (Lee half HK) Chuchuchu's posts are so hard to understand - can see him trying really hard with google translate. One thing is quite clear - the majority HK people definitely do not support the police. The support for the government/leader/police in HK has reached an all time low. And yes it's done by a reputable organisation and has traditionally been neutral in these matters. A lot of of the so called "police supporters/govenrnment supporters" get paid to go on these demonstrations... Yes, this is why I said that the Western media is very interesting. Look at this site, of course, although you claim that you are only there, there is no review, but the content of these sites will never appear in front of you. See how many people are paying to tens of thousands of people to participate in such a rally? And it is clear that the support of the government is a certain age, most people are 30-60 years old. They need work to support themselves, people eat every day, and many of them still support the students who participated in the protest. You can look for photos or evidence at will. You will find that the vast majority of protesters are young people in their 20s. Can't you explain the problem? These people represent Hong Kong? Unemployed people can also represent Hong Kong? Http://news.cri.cn/20190701/80d56a44-5fb6-9b0d-52d5-9d4e461ea353.htmlHttp://www.xinhuanet.com//gangao/2019-07/29/c_1124813323.htm
What? Does it really matter "what they protest for"? I thought the point is they have the right to protest and speak it, without being beaten up? One group of 2million people can protest, of course another 160k people can also protest. "Who's the majority?" that's what "one man, one vote" can decide, which is what they want, so if you are wondering why don't you just give them a chance and find the answer?
And if you are emphasizing on the age distribution, can you tell me the age distribution in this photos?
https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/03/31/pictures-12000-hongkongers-march-protest-evil-china-extradition-law-organisers-say/
https://www.todayonline.com/world/hong-kong-protesters-take-their-message-chinese-tourists
Yes there are some young people, but "the vast majority in their 20s"? What?
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On October 10 2019 06:41 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 06:27 Xamo wrote:On October 10 2019 06:14 Penev wrote:On October 10 2019 06:08 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 05:53 Excludos wrote:On October 10 2019 05:47 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 05:43 Excludos wrote:On October 10 2019 05:33 chuchuchu wrote:
Even Wikipedia has debates about whether there is a massacre in Tiananmen (1989). There are no debates on Wikipedia about whether the massacre happened. People are allowed to debate on the wiki debate page, and on there anyone and whomever can say whatever the heck they please. That never makes it onto the actual article itself, which requires sources for everything you post. And there are plenty of sources for Tiananmen square. There's fucking photos of it! And they have existed since before Photoshop was a thing. Are you questioning my ability to use the network? Yes. Quite profoundly: https://observers.france24.com/en/20120604-new-photos-emerge-showing-tiananmen-square-just-after-1989-massacre-china-student-protest-commemorationAnd thanks for making me google these for you. They make me sick to my stomach. There are more, btw. Any google search will do. They are not censored over here (yet) The "tank man" is from the day after the massacre, not from the massacre itself. https://baijiahao.baidu.com/s?id=1561088272745847&wfr=spider&for=pcI really hope that you can look at these. What is the photo of the slaughter? What is evidence? What is the real slaughter However, it seems that it is hard to say clearly with Westerners and whites. After all, it is a country that relies on the slave trade and the ethnic groups of Africa and the Americas are extinct. I would like to know that Americans are afraid when they are lying on the land where Indians and blacks are buried. So far you have compared the Hong Kong protesters with the KKK, I think you called me stupid, it's hard to know for sure with your English, you are denying the tiananmen square massacre happened and now you start to get racist about "whites". I wonder where you'll go next! He (or they) are going to present this thread to his boss and call it a day. Job done. Nobody defends any government as irrationally as this (new) user does unless it is his job. Please ignore him, propaganda and derailing opposing threads is his job. Aww but it's funny :/ I mean I know what you are talking about but how is what this account is spewing in this thread in any way productive for the Chinese government? It is not exactly convincing anyone, for the most part it's just amusing people. Well me at least.
You're right, it is funny.
One anonymous user in a small community thread is not going to change the world, specially if it is not a skilled professional, but it is a small push in their direction. If you have a lot of them in a lot of sites, it is not small anymore.
Convincing is not the only way for him to win this small battle. Filling the thread with nonsensic discussions may be funny for some users but deviates the thread from its original intention, and therefore discourages participation in the discussion started by the OP.
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On October 10 2019 06:46 jy_9876543210 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 06:20 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 06:10 HaFnium wrote:On October 10 2019 05:18 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 04:57 jy_9876543210 wrote:On October 10 2019 04:48 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 04:41 jy_9876543210 wrote:On October 10 2019 04:35 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 03:57 phodacbiet wrote:On October 10 2019 02:46 chuchuchu wrote:
[quote]
Very interesting, wrong comparison I just want to show that some forms of democracy and freedom will change, just as discrimination against blacks is definitely not one of freedom of speech in the United States.
Although Martin Luther King was killed.
Similarly, China's democracy and freedom are not so much the same as the United States, because the so-called autocracy and dictator seem to be like the Queen of England and the Emperor of Japan.
And when you talk about it, we should think about Hong Kong and its citizens.
I am very eager to ask, do you know how many Hong Kong people participated in this Chinese National Day celebration? Including young people, college students, government officials, police, famous stars, and ordinary people.
Do you think we should think about Hong Kong people, then do you know how many people in Hong Kong support the police parade? The police in Hong Kong, the government in Hong Kong, Hong Kong, so many condemns the violent protesters, and the ordinary people, shouting at the bbc reporters, this is Hong Kong, China, the taxi driver who supports the law revision, isn't it Hong Kong?
What you see seems to be the collective public opinion of Hong Kong, actually because those people have amplified this reaction through radical methods.
Think about it, if it is really a problem of the society and the Chinese government, the Hong Kong government, the ordinary people of Hong Kong (Is it not ordinary people and the grassroots officials?) Are these attitudes still not showing anything? Think about how good the credibility of the Hong Kong government is, and the same group of people are not trusted now.
The vast majority of protesters on the streets of Hong Kong are college students, young people, and young unemployed people. Is this a normal antibody or a collective carnival of young people, like an American youth who likes to take drugs?
China has experienced two very painful students, and the young people have dominated the political violent protests, almost smashing the entire country. However, these protests did not make more than a billion people ignorant, and the ordinary Chinese who were at a loss knew how to live well.
The Chinese have supported all the legal acts of Hong Kong and have wanted to split China and Hong Kong for many years. There is nothing too fierce.
We support Hong Kong, support democracy, support freedom, and even to some extent, support universal suffrage in Hong Kong.
However, what you have to understand is what is the slogan of Hong Kong's independence and violence? This is what the Hong Kong player and the NBA rocket manager said.
This is also why the Chinese currently call it a terrorist, because terrorists in the Middle East often call themselves freedom fighters.
If Hong Kong, China, is not dominated by the majority of Chinese people and by the majority of Hong Kong people, then who will decide?
Can Texas and California declare independence today and expel all blacks and people from other states？
So，why China give up HK？and Violent protestors demanding the expulsion of mainlanders？
In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons。
(you can find it in many Hong Kong movies，In mainland China, Hong Kong people's bad reputation, sense of geographical superiority and discrimination against mainlanders are the main reasons (you can find out from many Hong Kong movies, including asking mainlanders if they have seen Apple phones made in China, and mocking the mainland for lack of high-rise power and modern technology, the same thing is still happening to Chinese people in Europe, the United States, etc.)It used to be Korea and Japan.).
You bring up valid points, but what you seem to miss out on is how this all started in the first place. There is currently a Sino-British joint declaration agreement between China and the UK dated back in 1984 and went into effect in 1997 stating that HK will have its own government, is able to pass its own laws, and that their way of life would not change for 50 years. You can read a bit on that agreement here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration. This means that in this agreement, China agreed that its PRC principles would not be practiced in HK until 2047. Despite this agreement, in 2014, China proposed a reform to HK's electoral system, a clear infringement of the agreement. Since China agreed that HK could remain autonomous and have authority over their own government, then why is China screening candidates for HK's Chief Executive? This started around 2014 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests), and afterwards the British Foreign Office announced that Chinese officials now treat this declaration as void. You say China support HK's democracy, then why not let the HK'ers elect who they want, instead of screening who they want the HK people to elect? The HK'ers are upset because they were promised 50 years, but China is trying to impose only 22 years into the treaty. Does this mean China's words aren't even worth 50% of what they put on papers? So flash forward to the current protest, how did it start? Well, China wanted to pass an extradite bill in HK, another infringement of the current agreement. HK'ers did not want this law, which they are within their own rights to deny since China agreed it will not impose, yet China still adamantly demand that this law be passed. If you look over at the 5 demands HK is currently protesting for, they are extremely reasonable given that China started this by breaking their words. 1. Full withdrawal of the extradition bill - Very valid demand, considering China signed an agreement that they will not be imposing their laws in HK until 2047. Last I checked, it's only 2019. 2. Inquiry into police brutality - Also valid, the people would like to investigate police's conduct. The police are meant to protect the people, not beat them up when they are protesting. 3. Retracting the classification of protesters as rioters - This started because China broke its words, so the people were upset and protested. Had China not broke its words, this wouldn't have happened. The people marched because China lied, not because they randomly rioted out of no where. This point can be a case by case basis with some standards since I understand not all protesters are good, some can be destructive, and we should judge them fairly. 4. Amnesty for arrested protesters - Same as point 3. 5. Dual universal suffrage, for both their Legislative and Chief Executive - Again, China signed an agreement that allows the HK'ers to manage their own government. If they are true to their words, let the HK'ers decide how they want their government to be ran. My main point is that HK originally didn't protest for independence. This was NOT how the protest started. They started because China lied and backed out of their own words only 22 years into a 50 years signed agreement. It is only escalating because instead of admitting they were in the wrong, China cracked down on the HK citizens. HK citizens now are entertaining independence because they realized Mainland China does not keep its word. To use a Starcraft analogy, this is similar to Mengsk, Reynor, and Kerrigan working together, yet Mengsk abandoned Kerrigan on that one planet (forgot the name). When Reynor became rightfully pissed for what Mengsk did and turned on him, Mengsk called Reynor a terrorist. China is pulling a Mengsk right now. If China is true to its words. Come back in 28 years and let the HK'ers do what they want to do with their government for now. 1. China hopes to sign extradition regulations with Hong Kong (extending criminal offenders because there have been criminals who have committed murder and rape in mainland China and have been cast into Hong Kong. The Chinese government and other countries such as the United States also have extradition regulations, and the Hong Kong government has other regions. The state has extradition regulations). Why is it rejected? This is not because mainland China requires the implementation of laws in Hong Kong, but hopes to sign regulations with Hong Kong. This is actually very strange. It is actually an agreement between a country and a country within a country. 2. I hope that you can read the Sino-British Joint Declaration carefully. He has not given the British any rights after this. You can blame the Chinese government, but because of this, I think other countries are involved. This is still the Beijing government of China and the Hong Kong region. problem. In addition, the Chinese government's commitment is to keep Hong Kong unchanged for 50 years. I don't know how you understand it. I have two thoughts. One is to continue Hong Kong before the colony in 1997, and the second is to follow the basic law after 1997. Hong Kong. Before 1997, Hong Kong was a colony. Hong Kong people did not even have British nationality. The leaders of Hong Kong were all British whites. They were also British nationals, both the first and the second, including the Hong Kong Constitution, the Sino-British Joint Declaration. During the British colonial period, there was no universal suffrage. I don't know where Hong Kong's universal suffrage comes from. This violates the Constitution of Hong Kong - the Basic Law. In addition, without universal suffrage, it cannot mean that they have no democracy. Hong Kong's politics is closer to the Swiss political system, and each leader does not adopt the Swiss rotation system. Keeping it for 50 years, isn't it just that there is no universal suffrage? Once the universal suffrage is not a violation of the China Commitment and the Sino-British Joint Declaration, and the Hong Kong Basic Law? Although I think that Hong Kong has been harming itself for 50 years, the development of first-tier cities in China is much better than that of Hong Kong. For me, I have lived in Shanghai for a long time, and Hong Kong is like a rural area. Of course, I am not actually, most of them. This is also true in Europe, and I have a stark contrast to the views of Japanese cities. 3. The Chinese government of Beijing and all Chinese have never opposed liberal democracy and legal protests. However, after the Cultural Revolution, the Chinese were sensitive to the protests because we realized that such collective behavior would often evolve into violence. For example, China’s previous protests, the US bombing of the Yugoslav embassy, and Japan’s activities to commemorate the death of soldiers in World War II. This kind of parade in China has produced extreme violence, as happened in Hong Kong. If you don't trust the Chinese and don't trust the Chinese government, don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised, don't believe it? Don't you believe in Western media? Go look for their evaluation of the Hong Kong police and the Hong Kong government in history. 4. Special criminals are not advisable. Think about the United States, but the country with the highest proportion of prison population. Of course, I don't want China to become the United States. But think about it. There are many British nationals in the Hong Kong police, white people (maybe I think you still don't believe in the yellow race, but I don't think it is racist). Hong Kong's judicial system, so the judges are British nationality, Australian nationality, 90% of judges are white. You should trust them, not a group of unemployed people, a group of young people who have taken a poison and drink alcohol and have sex on the roadside (although you call it freedom, but often these are blocked by neutral media). Opposite to these violent protesters are peaceful protesters who have long since left the protest, and supporters who support the police, support the Hong Kong government, and support the Chinese government. They are more numerous, but unfortunately they need to work and they do not use violence. So it seems to be weak, and because many of them are older people (you should have heard of Hong Kong's aging), they are not very familiar with the Internet, and the Internet is now a Z-age person (in fact, 1995-2000) Born person). 5. Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people. Hong Kong knows that Hong Kong is bought by Li Ka-shing, and that the Chinese government cannot interfere and support socialism. Everyone has food and housing. Later, the economic decline of Western society, if you are a European, there should be experience, the US economy has recently grown, but it is also uncomfortable. After the 2008 financial turmoil, it has been declining for a long time. China is getting better and better. When China gets better, when they find that the Chinese who once earned 200 yuan a month have the same income and even more money, they find that they can’t be like the colonial era. Next, when it came to China, it became a millionaire, went to bed with more girls, and bought more luxurious cosmetics. So I hope to return to the colonial era and pass violence. (Their slogan is what you saw in this Hong Kong player and the NBA), by robbing mobile phone stores, selling them online, by raising the flags of the United States and the United Kingdom. I saw Swedes, and I think I should understand why, academically, the Sedgmo syndrome. Perhaps Westerners believe that the colonial era is very glorious. "don't you believe that the Hong Kong government and the Hong Kong police, which have always been highly praised" "Why did they protest? Quite simply, young people can't find a job without a way out, and they are poor. The long-term segregation policy with mainland China discriminates against mainland Chinese people and believes that they are all poor people, as whites discriminate against black people." This is trolling for sure... I can hardly find any other explanations. Oh, poor man. In fact, it is very simple. You only need to use Google to search for the gap between the rich and the poor in Hong Kong. Have you been to Hong Kong and China? I am very familiar with it. Yeah yeah I can find Gini index for every country in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equalityBut why do you think that's the reason of the protest? Where did you find that? Who told you that? You are very familiar with it but you don't know the reason? After removing the tax and welfare transfers, Hong Kong’s Gini index was as high as 0.54. If you have been to Chicago and New York, think about where the tramp is, social security (Hong Kong people want to thank the Hong Kong police for their efforts) In addition, you should check that the top ten billionaires in Hong Kong account for Hong Kong's GDP (more than 35%). The disparity between the rich and the poor in Hong Kong has been criticized by the United Nations. If you can visit Hong Kong's own website You will find that Hong Kong officially announced that there are 1.3 million poor people in 7.6 million people in Hong Kong. Perhaps you should use Google to search for the poor in Hong Kong directly, or go to Hong Kong in person. Take a look at the slums in the bustling city. (The slums in mainland China have long since disappeared) Hong Kong is an area without a universal retirement protection system. It is well developed, but his university enrollment rate is only 20%. This is the famous ten universities in Hong Kong. Hong Kong is a developed region and an unbalanced region. You should probably look at the encyclopedia about Li Ka-shing and see his property. We call him Lee half HK (Lee half HK) Chuchuchu's posts are so hard to understand - can see him trying really hard with google translate. One thing is quite clear - the majority HK people definitely do not support the police. The support for the government/leader/police in HK has reached an all time low. And yes it's done by a reputable organisation and has traditionally been neutral in these matters. A lot of of the so called "police supporters/govenrnment supporters" get paid to go on these demonstrations... Yes, this is why I said that the Western media is very interesting. Look at this site, of course, although you claim that you are only there, there is no review, but the content of these sites will never appear in front of you. See how many people are paying to tens of thousands of people to participate in such a rally? And it is clear that the support of the government is a certain age, most people are 30-60 years old. They need work to support themselves, people eat every day, and many of them still support the students who participated in the protest. You can look for photos or evidence at will. You will find that the vast majority of protesters are young people in their 20s. Can't you explain the problem? These people represent Hong Kong? Unemployed people can also represent Hong Kong? Http://news.cri.cn/20190701/80d56a44-5fb6-9b0d-52d5-9d4e461ea353.htmlHttp://www.xinhuanet.com//gangao/2019-07/29/c_1124813323.htm What? Does it really matter "what they protest for"? I thought the point is they have the right to protest and speak it, without being beaten up? One group of 2million people can protest, of course another 160k people can also protest. "Who's the majority?" that's what "one man, one vote" can decide, which is what they want, so if you are wondering why don't you just give them a chance and find the answer?
I dont normally get political with world news as we have enough to deal with in australia, our protests are pretty peaceful but theyre much smaller in comparison. But when you have the size of 2 million (idk the actual number so im quoting you), it seems especially volatile to violence or unruly behaviour. The police are always going to be present (at least they are here) as regardless of how good your intentions are theres always an individual whos causing trouble now it may be like 1 in like 200 or even some drunk dude, the police have to step in for small situations like that. At 2 million people its just amplified you have police reacting to some nonviolent but possible questionable acts and then it snowballs out of control.
Example: You have police arresting one protestor who is taking it too far, police step in but everything fine. The protestor is sat down to cool off the police protect him and others around him and he might get slap with a mild fine or something but nothing more comes of it. Thats the ideal response right? Repeat that situation a thousand times, and ur getting someone who fucks up the protestor is smashing a window or the police are being too violent to bring him down, at the start this will be a rare occurance but both sides wont see it like that any action against whoevers side will be seen as a generalisation and the whole thing spirals out of control. Im not supporting the police or anything like that, im just saying with so many people everything can snowball
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On October 10 2019 05:33 chuchuchu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 05:01 StasisField wrote:On October 10 2019 04:45 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 04:24 StasisField wrote:On October 10 2019 04:22 whitehat511 wrote:On October 10 2019 03:26 Meta wrote:On October 10 2019 02:04 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 01:44 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 10 2019 01:28 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 01:21 Wombat_NI wrote:
[quote]
They’re not a political platform, but they do have a clear political position here which is tow whatever line the Chinese authorities want them to tow.
Seems to me it was a pretty good platform for the guy to use really, although the attention it gained was more from Blizzard’s reaction than his actions specifically. Gained a fuckload of traction even US Senators are wading in, doubt he’d have been able to elicit such a response with a tweet.
China and especially the Gulf States use sport as an extension of their soft power, they’ve made it political already, likewise the Cold War saw sporting events like the Olympics as an ideological battleground. if it is not an political extension of soft power,why some officials of the organization are talking about politics？if not,STOP talking.As an official, you can't blatantly confront the Chinese public opinion while thinking that discrimination against Chinese people, Chinese culture and support separatism and violence. Why not? National self-determination is a key principle of geopolitics in the modern era. Considering a bomb blew in the windows of my house when I was but a babe, I’m quite happy that the United States interceded and helped facilitate a peace here that respected both of the national identities in our wee country. I would personally like to see more of China and its culture emerge onto the world stage, an old and venerable culture indeed, whose people have accomplished remarkable things in the last few decades especially. If it’s by trampling on everyone and expecting Westerners to bend to their whims and where criticism is construed as a grievous insult then, no thanks. When you think so, have you ever asked about the thoughts of ordinary Chinese? It's like I'm here to express the thoughts of an ordinary Chinese. Indeed, I feel sad that I didn't learn English well, because what I lost is not a good paper, but an opportunity to communicate with others. Not only Americans can define the world. The pioneers of socialism and communism are Germans and French. Formerly President Roosevelt of the United States was also criticized for socialism or communism. But think about Chinese history, the current development of China, and the past workers of Britain. Some ideological conflicts are unavoidable, especially under the propaganda of some western media, they usually distort the report in order to satisfy their own interests. China does not do very well in many places, but it does not want to do so. No Chinese wants his country to be like India with the same population. (I do not mean to discriminate. Most Chinese want to live a good life first and guarantee everyone the same rights, wealth, rights and status.) In China, it is still possible to elect people who have been upgraded from the grassroots level through examinations and votes, while officials at the grassroots level are also elected. In China, former leaders were even born to poor peasants rather than a billion-dollar owner or equally wealthy political family. Both father and son are presidents. Western media believe that China is undemocratic and not free, and the Chinese believe that they are free and democratic. This seems to be a disgusting tactic. I was disappointed with many of the statements, especially those of the distorted Sixth Fourth Movement (my father was one of the participants, but later they built China into the second largest country in the world), and those who believed that the Hong Kong police should not react to any of the protestors'actions. When commenting, consider that China has 1.4 billion people. This country can not change because of the ideas of more than a dozen people, thousands of people and tens of thousands of people. The most important thing is to ensure that more than a billion people, like other Westerners, can live with wealth and dignity on this planet. I wonder what this guy thinks about the hundreds of students that were murdered at Tienanmen Square in 1989. And I wonder what you think about the Trail of Tears? The Trail of Tears is universally taught as an abhorrent action by the United States government here in the US. It is not celebrated. Its brutal events are condemned by the people and by society. So now tell us what you think about Tienanmen Square in 1989. The Chinese often regard 1989 as the same event as the Cultural Revolution. If you preach him, for the Chinese, as if to promote k.k.k, my father used to be one of them, but he told me a lot. The reason why the Chinese do not want to talk about the 1989 and the Cultural Revolution, because this is a disaster and an unspeakable thing. More importantly, they are related to political struggles. It’s as if Americans don’t talk about Lincoln actually not liberating all black slaves. The African Americans actually struggled for human rights until the 1960s-1970s, but today it is no longer a simple assassination of Martin Luther King. In fact, you can see when I see you talking to you here. China is not what you think. I will still talk to you about this, because Blizzard is often more tolerant, just like StarCraft, or World of Warcraft shows. I will not be arrested. Similarly, if I know you in reality, maybe I will pretend not to know and be surprised as you mentioned above. In fact, I started to understand 1989, or from China's website (dark network, the Chinese network is very complicated, in fact, you can find what you want, including everything that violates all human laws) Because we don't want to talk about it, this is not a simple thing. Just like we don't talk about conspiracy theories on the moon or aliens in the 51st district. We talked about Kennedy flying more to the moon and today's nasa, not to him and Marilyn Monroe, as well as Cuba, and the conspiracy theories he was killed. (Actually, these conspiracy theories in the United States were very popular in China. People refused to believe that landing on the moon was true. People also believed that Kennedy died of Marilyn Monroe and family curses, and there were really aliens in District 51.) People in the US talk about our historical figures' short-comings all the time. They are taught in schools. They are not something we have to go seek out on our own on a website. My US History teacher brought up the hypocrisy of Thomas Jefferson writing "The right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" while still owning slaves many times. We were taught about Lincoln's actual beliefs and how what he did did not truly liberate everyone and bring us on an even playing field. The struggles of the Civil Rights movement are talked about in-depth in schools. The atrocities of our government are openly taught and condemned. You just grouped Tienanmen Square in with conspiracy theories and that's all that I think really needs to be said on that, but I will say more. Your own government murdered its own people. It drove students over with tanks without issue. Students that were peacefully protesting. Your government murdered people. It happened. It is not a conspiracy and it does not deserve to be treated like some outlandish concept. The fact you are so afraid to talk about awful things your government has done speaks volumes. Even Wikipedia has debates about whether there is a massacre in Tiananmen (1989).
Yeah, maybe the Chinese censored version lol.
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On October 10 2019 07:01 Xamo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 06:41 Penev wrote:On October 10 2019 06:27 Xamo wrote:On October 10 2019 06:14 Penev wrote:On October 10 2019 06:08 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 05:53 Excludos wrote:On October 10 2019 05:47 chuchuchu wrote:On October 10 2019 05:43 Excludos wrote:On October 10 2019 05:33 chuchuchu wrote:
Even Wikipedia has debates about whether there is a massacre in Tiananmen (1989). There are no debates on Wikipedia about whether the massacre happened. People are allowed to debate on the wiki debate page, and on there anyone and whomever can say whatever the heck they please. That never makes it onto the actual article itself, which requires sources for everything you post. And there are plenty of sources for Tiananmen square. There's fucking photos of it! And they have existed since before Photoshop was a thing. Are you questioning my ability to use the network? Yes. Quite profoundly: https://observers.france24.com/en/20120604-new-photos-emerge-showing-tiananmen-square-just-after-1989-massacre-china-student-protest-commemorationAnd thanks for making me google these for you. They make me sick to my stomach. There are more, btw. Any google search will do. They are not censored over here (yet) The "tank man" is from the day after the massacre, not from the massacre itself. https://baijiahao.baidu.com/s?id=1561088272745847&wfr=spider&for=pcI really hope that you can look at these. What is the photo of the slaughter? What is evidence? What is the real slaughter However, it seems that it is hard to say clearly with Westerners and whites. After all, it is a country that relies on the slave trade and the ethnic groups of Africa and the Americas are extinct. I would like to know that Americans are afraid when they are lying on the land where Indians and blacks are buried. So far you have compared the Hong Kong protesters with the KKK, I think you called me stupid, it's hard to know for sure with your English, you are denying the tiananmen square massacre happened and now you start to get racist about "whites". I wonder where you'll go next! He (or they) are going to present this thread to his boss and call it a day. Job done. Nobody defends any government as irrationally as this (new) user does unless it is his job. Please ignore him, propaganda and derailing opposing threads is his job. Aww but it's funny :/ I mean I know what you are talking about but how is what this account is spewing in this thread in any way productive for the Chinese government? It is not exactly convincing anyone, for the most part it's just amusing people. Well me at least. You're right, it is funny. One anonymous user in a small community thread is not going to change the world, specially if it is not a skilled professional, but it is a small push in their direction. If you have a lot of them in a lot of sites, it is not small anymore. Convincing is not the only way for him to win this small battle. Filling the thread with nonsensic discussions may be funny for some users but deviates the thread from its original intention, and therefore discourages participation in the discussion started by the OP.
You're right of course it's a poster that is best ignored even if it isn't what we're talking about. Like I posted before this shouldn't be a discussion about China but about Blizzard and its disgusting greed over morals decision.
I'm so bored tho.
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So you guys think Blizz will react to the community response in any way?
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On October 10 2019 07:11 Shock710 wrote:
Example: You have police arresting one protestor who is taking it too far, police step in but everything fine. The protestor is sat down to cool off the police protect him and others around him and he might get slap with a mild fine or something but nothing more comes of it. Thats the ideal response right? Repeat that situation a thousand times, and ur getting someone who fucks up the protestor is smashing a window or the police are being too violent to bring him down, at the start this will be a rare occurance but both sides wont see it like that any action against whoevers side will be seen as a generalisation and the whole thing spirals out of control. Im not supporting the police or anything like that, im just saying with so many people everything can snowball
Unfortunately, I fear that's the problem with whats happening in HK. As the protests get out of control, it's harder to defend the actions of the protesters even if you agree with their general goal. I was eating with a mate who (after we start talking about the police having shot someone) shows a full video of the incident essentially showing 10+ guys with batons jumping a policeman and then another policeman comes around a corner and shorts one in the leg. As you reflect on thee things and you think to yourself "what would I do if I was the policeman" and sorry but no shit I would shoot him too.
Having said that, the point isn't about whether anyone here agrees with the protesters in blizzard or not, it's about whether blizzard should be expected to allow people to use their platform to debate these kinds of issues.
I feel they were a bit heavy handed but no idea what happened in the background either.
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Northern Ireland23745 Posts
On October 10 2019 06:01 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2019 05:45 Integra wrote:Brian Kibler has opted out of Hearthstone: [source https://www.polygon.com/2019/10/9/20906844/hearthstone-brian-kibler-quits-grandmasters-blizzard-blitzchung-hong-kong］Popular Hearthstone professional, streamer, and tournament caster Brian Kibler today issued a statement that he “will have no involvement in Grandmasters,” unless “something changes” following Blizzard’s decision to ban Hearthstone player Chung “blitzchung” Ng Wai from the tournament circuit.
Kibler, a regular presence on the Hearthstone competitive commentariat posted a blog today, expressing concern at the “incredibly harsh” punishment meted out by Blizzard to Chung. Earlier this week, the company banned Chung for a year, and confiscated his Asia-Pacific Grandmasters earnings after he shouted “liberate Hong Kong, revolution of our time,” a slogan associated with the current pro-democracy protests.
Blizzard’s actions, which are closely tied to the company’s commercial ambitions in China, have been met with outrage. Some have called for a boycott on the company’s products. Protests have followed from Blizzard employees and Hearthstone competitors.
Kibler’s blog acknowledged that Chung had broken tournament rules, but said that the context of the political situation in Hong Kong, and Activision Blizzard’s Asian ambitions, could not be ignored.
“I won’t pretend to understand either the intricacies of the geopolitical situation in China and Hong Kong or the full extent of Blizzard’s business interests there,” he wrote. “But to me this penalty feels like it is deeply rooted in both. The heavy-handedness of it feels like someone insisted that Blizzard make an example of Blitzchung, not only to discourage others from similar acts in the future but also to appease those upset by the outburst itself.”
Kibler, 39, has been professional card game player for more than two decades, with multiple Hearthstone and Magic: The Gathering tournament trophies. He’s also a regular caster and commentator.
“That kind of appeasement is simply not something I can in good conscience be associated with,” he added in his blog. “When I learned about the ruling, I reached out to Blizzard and informed them that I no longer feel comfortable casting the Grandmasters finals at BlizzCon. I will not be a smiling face on camera that tacitly endorses this decision. Unless something changes, I will have no involvement in Grandmasters moving forward.” Oh, a man with principles, that's cool. I hope more will follow.
Fingers crossed. I got a nice refund on my Warcraft Reforged purchase which funded my drinking tonight, got to go adhere to Irish stereotypes after all!
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Canada8988 Posts
On October 10 2019 07:40 Big-t wrote:
So you guys think Blizz will react to the community response in any way?
Probably not, maybe they are gonna anounce some donation to humanitory/civil right protection organisation at Blizzcon if the pressure stay on, but I don't expect more.
I think the Internet make the protest bigger than it really is, most people playing Blizz games don't check sub-reddit or Twitter. If it get all the way to the US/European political dirsouse, then I imagine were gonna see a reaction
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On October 10 2019 06:10 Komodo wrote:
Have someone stated that the same happened with the NBA? The coach of the Rockets made almost the same comment but the NBA stated that they supported the coach free of speach. China canceled the games that where going to be held in its country.
Of course this has an impact in future NBA endevours in China but remains a reliable company for its workers.
#1. Morey is a Prez of B-Ball Ops not a coach.
#2. He immediately deleted his tweet and said he didn't mean to offend any one and that he is just 1 guy with 1 opnion and imperfect information living the USA who has not experienced what its like to live in China.
#3. You're painting of over simplified picture of what the NBA did. There is way more to it than "they supported the coach free of speach" whatever that is.
Check out James Harden's profuse apology and his proclamation that he loves everything about China.
Klay Thompson has a big deal with a Chinese company. I don't think you're going to hear him engaging in symbolic gestures supporting the Hong Kong protesters.
The NBA is struggling with this issue just like Blizzard is.
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Canada8988 Posts
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What corporate cowardice! From an organization that claims to have values in the social space.
Is TeamLiquid issuing a statement? They run teams in how many Blizzard sports? Teoita & Waxangel are in this thread. Does TeamLiquid as an organization stand with Blizzard in condemning violations of its EULA?
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EPT
