EPTSouth American Politics thread - Page 34
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States24264 Posts
On August 23 2019 12:57 JimmiC wrote: Where does the US say it supports Slash and Burn or is this more assumptions states as facts? The US has done enough things to the environment and to SA no need to make things up. Or "presume" Are you trying to argue that the Trump administration opposes the deforestation plans and policy of Bolsonaro's administration, that they are indifferent, or that you just can't make any inferences based on the information you're aware of? | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States24264 Posts
On August 23 2019 14:09 JimmiC wrote: None of the above. I'm arguing that inferences are not facts and should not be stated as such. They should be stated with things like "I think" or "I believe". As for what I presume, I don't know what Trump thinks. Do I think he would be for mass deforestation? If it was profitable for him I would think so, because I think he only cares about himself like most narcissists, but in this case likely no since he needs votes from the midwest, his tariffs have hurt farmers. China has begun to get most of their soy beans from Brazil to spite Trump. Brazilian deforestation by farmers looking to grow more soy for China does not help him or his chances of being re-elected. Trump is not pure evil looking to do whatever damage he can do where ever he can do it, he is a pragmatist and a narcissist and possibly a sociopath. If it helped him personally different story. But even though I have decently well thought out reasoning for why he wouldn't be for it I would never treat this inference like a fact, because it is not one. And I find it exceedingly frustrating when people do. It is what creates the alternative fact narrative and people believing shit they shouldn't because people, often in high positions, are doing what you often do and stating their opinion/presumption/inference as if it is a fact. Heck I didn't even presume you had nothing to back up your claims, I suspected as much based on many of our conversations but because I couldn't be sure I asked for a source. Your inference that Trump and his state departments very public support of Bolsonaro and not even lip-service criticism of his very public plan of fascist deforestation is actually Trump opposing it seems like a stretch to say the least but I can at least understand why you think that now. I think it's more reasonable to think the US/Trump administration prioritizes profiting off of central and south america over the people or well being of any "plebs" as it has for its entire history as well as a general disregard for indigenous peoples. That there may be an extremely selfish reason for Trump to oppose it (in his mind and not in public) doesn't really even matter to the practical reality of non-opposition anyway though. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28876 Posts
On August 23 2019 11:06 GoTuNk! wrote: I'm sorry to imply anything then, that's a perfectly valid point. I'm honestly appaled how some people, like GH, but all over instagram, can't wait 2 seconds when a natural disaster happens and inmediatately use it to put baseless blame on politicians they don't like. Or again in GH's case, on unrelated countries they deeply hate, like the US. This is a man made natural disaster and there's no doubt that Bolsonaro is a significant part of the reason why the deforestation and amount of forest fires is accelerating. I mean the guy doesn't even acknowledge that there is a climate problem. He doesn't even want money from other countries to preserve the amazon rainforest (this is 'imperialism') because he seemingly does not believe the rainforest produces any value. He's literally the most harmful person on the entire planet right now. | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
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GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
On August 23 2019 22:58 Liquid`Drone wrote: This is a man made natural disaster and there's no doubt that Bolsonaro is a significant part of the reason why the deforestation and amount of forest fires is accelerating. I mean the guy doesn't even acknowledge that there is a climate problem. He doesn't even want money from other countries to preserve the amazon rainforest (this is 'imperialism') because he seemingly does not believe the rainforest produces any value. He's literally the most harmful person on the entire planet right now. I have no idea or shred of evidence of who started the fires, but I'm gonna blame the Brazilian president because I dislike him. I will also conviniently ignore 14 year Bolivian dictator Evo Morales who did issue a decree allowing farming in the Amazon, less than a month ago, that could aswell been how the fires started. Morever, Evo Morales is the guy who is not accepting any international help. This is not a blame game, but all this Americans and Europeans reading leftist propaganda (like you and GH) should take a moment to pause, think, and maybe acnowledge you simply don't know what happened because no one does. JimmiC dislikes Trump and Bolsonaro as much as you do, but he understand he doesn't know what has happened yet and that burning your own forest is a politically disastrous move, and politicians first concern is always re-election so maybe Bolsonaro doesn't want the forest to burn, specially given the leftist propaganda will blame him inmedietately. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28876 Posts
Then Bolsonaro, when Norway freezes the payment for 2019 because the rainforest has not been protected according to the agreement, says that Norway has no business in saying what Brazil can or cannot do with its own rainforest, while also attacking us for producing oil (fair enough imo!) and posting a video of people from the faroe islands hunting whales and claiming this is Norway hunting whales, they have no moral high ground. Have you seen any quotes from Bolsonaro indicating that he cares deeply about protecting the rainforest? Because I have seen many indicating that he doesn't give a shit, and then, shortly after he rises to power, the deforestation starts accelerating like crazy, he defunds the organization supposed to monitor the deforestation and claims they are lying (I think - brazilians correct me if I'm wrong on any of this please.  ), and forest fires double from one year to the next. This is not some random coincidence. If Morales also deserves blame, that's another story. Totally plausible, I dunno. Norway has mostly been involved with Brazil, so we get way more news relating to that. However with 60% of the Amazon being in Brazil, and less than 10% being in Bolivia, it seems weird that this would be all Moraleses fault. | ||
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3024 Posts
Here's a map with coal plants in operation and opening in 2019, notice Brazil has almost none. China and the US are massively polluting the environment, it's not close. I wish the outrage was not merely focused on underdeveloped countries that don't have the resources to spare to deal with this kind of problem. I don't mean to excuse Brazil or Bolsonaro, I think he's doing terrible things. On the other hand, if the fires stopped today, I worry that the outrage would stop when in fact it wouldn't really change that much in our fight for the environment. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28876 Posts
 I think it's largely the same people who care about all of these issues, but they are fairly powerless within western countries, too. | ||
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3024 Posts
On August 24 2019 07:17 Liquid`Drone wrote: My understanding is that reforestation is considered one of our most important tools for fighting global warming in a world where a couple billions of people in India, South America and Africa can be expected to emit more co2 as their wealth and consumption ability increases. Yeah that's a big issue, and since we can't stop starving people from improving their lives, a good way to help would be to assist these countries as much as possible in developing green tech. I don't see a huge push in high tech sharing coming from developed countries down here in Argentina. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24264 Posts
On August 24 2019 07:36 LG)Sabbath wrote: Yeah that's a big issue, and since we can't stop starving people from improving their lives, a good way to help would be to assist these countries as much as possible in developing green tech. I don't see a huge push in high tech sharing coming from developed countries down here in Argentina. Is that not including China in "developed nations" (I think they are considered developing myself) or not seeing the solar plant they put there as part of a "huge push"? | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States24264 Posts
On August 24 2019 08:44 JimmiC wrote: Thank you for the map, and that is a really cool site as you poke around. It is not surprising with the US considering Trump campaigned on coal (albeit oh so disappointing). The good news is in spite of that there does not appear to be any new or planned coal plants in the states so that is something. I'm going to circulate this site at work. Lots of great info. It also is super telling on why the global environmental community constantly points out that China is the biggest threat along with India, not only the population but that they are still investing in these HORRENDOUS sources of power. No amount of "green washing" by their government can hide this kind of blatant abuse on the environment. And that is before you get into how they handle plastic and the amount of concrete we use. You constantly mention China's concrete like it's not reasonable, what would you have them do instead? Stick to dirt roads and thatch huts? | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States24264 Posts
On August 24 2019 11:03 JimmiC wrote: Just use less. The biggest thing would be to not build entire cities that are not used. But there are many others ways as well. Such as the not needed super highways to hong kong, the biggest this and the biggest that to not only destroy the environment but force millions of people to relocate. One of the reasons they do this is because China has stupid amounts of concrete making infrastructure and they people at the top only make money if they are supplying it to projects. So they always have these "super projects" going on. The Chinese government gets to be awful to the environment, awful to its people, awful to people of neighboring countries. I'm sorry to disappoint you but they are the worlds villain not the US. You could maybe argue US is top 5 (depending on how you weight treating of people outside of your borders compared to humans rights violations on your own people) but China is King. https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/feb/28/the-grey-wall-of-china-inside-the-worlds-concrete-superpower https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under-occupied_developments_in_China They can both be bad but the US has no comparable country in the 21st century when it comes to causing human suffering outside of it's own boarders. It's like the difference between parents abusing their children and someone across the world coming into your house to discipline your kids without being asked. (citizens aren't the children of the government but I think you get the point). I mean even if they used less and didn't develop hydroelectricity (they need an alternative then?), or ghost towns, they'd still be using a shit ton of concrete and more than the rest of the world with perfectly reasonable explanations. While they may be less efficient than they could be, they are doing it more efficiently than the US and it would be catastrophic if they followed the US's example. Your issue about the concrete is opposition to China industrializing moreso than that there's a viable alternative to them making a bunch of concrete. Also are you under the impression that it's not a regular occurrence for friends of government officials to profit off of government projects? I mean remember Halliburton and KBR? | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States24264 Posts
On August 24 2019 11:50 JimmiC wrote: No my point is there are lots of alternatives, why you continue to have such a blind spot for the chinese governments behavior. That's why I asked for them and am still waiting? No I am not. That is what I was saying is despite the ism the operate similar. The difference being it is supposed to illegal in tge states and once in a while people get caught. In China it is just how they do business along with forcing people to all leave there homes. How would that go over in the US. Do you actually know if officials and friends of theirs are caught and held accountable more frequently in the US than in China or do it less frequently than China, or are you just assuming that's the case? | ||
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