On December 16 2023 03:39 NoobSkills wrote: Every single hater in this thread for whatever reason won't put their money where their mouth is. The biggest factor in all of everything that is wrong with Acti and gaming is most likely rooted in money. You can say X Y Z leadership who ignore sexual harassment and now rush out crappy unfinished games is the problem. You can argue that they should be fired for not firing the guy who sexually harassed other employees, but that dude is really good at pumping out crappy unfinished games. And because 99.99999% of you have bought multiple titles from them in the past few years you support that money making machine, which gladly will ignore any issue you have with anything because they're fucking rich off of it. They sold you SC2 in 3 parts making it a 180 dollar game. Sure there was a little extra story, but you just got suckered into buying an overpriced base game. You've bought the rushed WOW remake, you bought D2R and D3 and despite D3 being a failure you bought D4. You bought that latest rushed COD that is glitchy and overrun by hackers.
You like to complain about it, but refuse to do anything about it. Anyone in a top slot at that company has minimal chance of being fired if they can directly correlate the fact that they spend the least making a video game and generate billions in profits. And negative publicity isn't a deterrant for most people receiving billions in compensation for that publicity.
I mean, plenty of us haven’t actually bought off ActiBlizz in quite some time. When did Legacy drop? And I personally didn’t mind how they released it, I felt I got sufficient stuff each iteration, plus it did incentivise the devs to continue working on the game. I don’t think you can get from WoL to what we have now via patching alone, or I doubt ActiBlizz would fund such an endeavour anyway. Of course things outside the game have enhanced it greatly, from the pro scene to these hallowed forums, but it’s up there for me in terms of bang for my buck of anything I’ve bought over the years.
Your general point stands, money talks, bullshit walks after all. But, especially given the age profile of TLers is increasing all the time, I’m not sure it’s fair to assume folks here are criticising ActiBlizz while buying every new title they’re putting out.
Gamers as a wider cohort have swallowed bullshit practices from since I can remember, and it’s clearly on consumers at this point that some of the more egregious stuff still happens, or even worse practices develop. I headbutt the nearest table every time I’m reminded people pre-order games in an age of digital distribution, where so many high-profile janky launches have occurred.
I do tend to demarcate between stock money grabbing stuff that blights the industry, and other concerns, notably this example. I can grudgingly accept the former is just the way of the world, but you can still make that money hand over fist without enabling a culture where sexual harassment flourishes. It doesn’t enhance the money-making machine in any notable way, and it’s a moral failing of leadership at various levels that it allegedly went down.
As a consumer, and if enough of my cohort feel the same, there’s leverage there to have x company get their act together if people aren’t buying their products anymore. To do so on a specific moral issue requires a lot of coordination and discipline, it’s harder to do obviously especially if you still want x product. And the company really needs to see a direct link between the issue and a drop in revenue. Difficult but not impossible, and I do think there’s generally a collective failure on this front.
I mean if a company has an awful culture during relative good times, what’s that going to look like in worse times when morale crumbles and stress rises.
Jimmy it’s very rich for you to say this thread is full of people making polemics when every post you make is either trashing workers, or ‘sit down and let Jimmy tell you a story about my life/how folks need to pull themselves up by the bootstraps/Atari in the 80s/NHL 94’
I agree overall that the practices in gaming exist overall and are not all directly linked to each other. Game companies making worse and more rushed games doesn't mean they must have sexual predators on their team. It goes more to the support system which allows it to happen and reinforcing that same behavior with zero recourse. Like giving your dog a treat every time it shits on your couch. And the massive incentive from stock gains and just general profit are the biggest of dog treats which means they're willing to do plenty of less than stellar things because in the end they're still going to make bank. The recent lawsuit has a penalty of what 30 million and that is wipe your ass money to them. Meanwhile a boycott of D4 or any title would be a huge hit to everything and speak volumes. And while I don't assume that everyone bought every title I find it hard to believe that when this subject comes up everyone claims to have purchased nothing, but perhaps those just so happen to be the ones that are interested in this subject. My point wasn't that sexual harassment or overworking employees or making a rushed/shitty product is vital to making profit off a game, it was that because they have that obscene profit they're willing to ignore the negatives.
Now that microsoft is going at it I do have some faith. In my personal opinion they've been good for gaming. You can have your gripes about Bill Gates, but I don't think he was ever really in charge of the gaming department and he has long since stopped being the CEO. Meanwhile the xbox, game pass, the support of failing studios might have been costly, but has generally supported gamers in having access to a quality service. Perhaps they change Acti-Trash-Blizz as a whole and make it a normal company once again with standards and professional responsibility.
On December 16 2023 05:16 WombaT wrote: Jimmy it’s very rich for you to say this thread is full of people making polemics when every post you make is either trashing workers, or ‘sit down and let Jimmy tell you a story about my life/how folks need to pull themselves up by the bootstraps/Atari in the 80s/NHL 94’
i am providing full context. the video game industry has been scum since before the 1980s. Nolan Bushnell and Mattel fucked over consumers and competitors super hard before 1980. My sig quote is from before 1980. David Crane left Atari after being told he was no more important than a factory worker. He then started Activision and made Pitfall. Activision didn't want to pay Atari even $1 in licensing fees.
So people in this industry claiming they are "shocked and surprised" at the scummy activity of the industry are just play-acting or willfully ignoring the 50 year history of the industry.
Namco paid the maker of Pacman $30K USD. The game made $1 billion in 1980 not adjusted to inflation. If we adjust to inflation the maker of Pacman got paid 120K USD adn the game took in $4 billion in revenue in 1980. Pacman went on to make $22Billion adjusted to inflation. The 2nd highest revenue Arcade game was MsPacman. He got paid $0 for Ms Pacman.
Namco gets some college kids to make Ms. Pacman and the original Pacman creator got $0.
So if the big hitters of the industry talk the way they do in my sig quote and pay peanuts to an absolute genius ... what do you think the industry will do when it deals with the average video game worker?
Atari and Mattel did everything they could to hide their game makers away so that they could be not offered better jobs. What caused the 1983 end of Mattel and Atari? Really idiotic, stupid decisions and really bad games. Arcade games hit record revenue levels in 1983.
In 1989, Nintendo wanted no one renting their cartridges so they sued Blockbuster for photocopying video game manuals etc etc. Pure scum. Nintendo didn't want anyone trying out their games for a few dollars so they pulled whatever scummy legal maneuvres were possible to stop it.
I can go on and on covering numerous scumbucket moves made by industry big hitters in every decade. The industry is scum.
If anyone decides to base their entire career around the video game industry and then claims they are "shocked and surprised" by nasty actions in the industry they get zero sympathy from me. They are managing their lives like a drunk driver.
This Asmongold guy reflects many of my attitudes about whiney software makers. It starts at 3 minutes and 30 seconds.
“no court or any independent investigation has substantiated any allegations that: there has been systemic or widespread sexual harassment at Activision Blizzard,” or that “Activision Blizzard senior executives ignored, condoned, or tolerated a culture of systemic, harassment, retaliation, or discrimination.”
I thought the government of California was going to rescue everyone from the living hell of working at ATVI. In both the EEOC and DFEH cases nothing systemic was found. What happened guys? I thought the government was going to save the day? I thought the government of California and USA was going to make our lives right.
ANyhow, there is probably nothing systemic going on at ATVI the last few years. However, with 10,000+ employees and the company being around since 1979 there is prolly some super evil stuff that has gone on with small groups of employees. meh.
On December 16 2023 05:16 WombaT wrote: Jimmy it’s very rich for you to say this thread is full of people making polemics when every post you make is either trashing workers, or ‘sit down and let Jimmy tell you a story about my life/how folks need to pull themselves up by the bootstraps/Atari in the 80s/NHL 94’
Polemics: complaining and criticizing without offering any possible solution. I offer a path of action rather than just whining. the solution is: notice how scummy the industry is. plan accordingly.
We've seen the government is not going to help you. In fact, the government even gives these corps giant tax breaks facilitating their bullshit.
On December 16 2023 03:39 NoobSkills wrote: Every single hater in this thread for whatever reason won't put their money where their mouth is. The biggest factor in all of everything that is wrong with Acti and gaming is most likely rooted in money. You can say X Y Z leadership who ignore sexual harassment and now rush out crappy unfinished games is the problem. You can argue that they should be fired for not firing the guy who sexually harassed other employees, but that dude is really good at pumping out crappy unfinished games. And because 99.99999% of you have bought multiple titles from them in the past few years you support that money making machine, which gladly will ignore any issue you have with anything because they're fucking rich off of it. They sold you SC2 in 3 parts making it a 180 dollar game. Sure there was a little extra story, but you just got suckered into buying an overpriced base game. You've bought the rushed WOW remake, you bought D2R and D3 and despite D3 being a failure you bought D4. You bought that latest rushed COD that is glitchy and overrun by hackers.
You like to complain about it, but refuse to do anything about it. Anyone in a top slot at that company has minimal chance of being fired if they can directly correlate the fact that they spend the least making a video game and generate billions in profits. And negative publicity isn't a deterrant for most people receiving billions in compensation for that publicity.
I (and a bunch of other people in this thread) did put my money where my mouth is. I used to buy everything Blizzard, from BW over Diablo 2, WoW + Lots of expansions + monthly subscription, SC2, Diablo 3, SC2-2.
And now i don't. I haven't bought SC2-3, i haven't bought any of the remakes, i have stopped giving WoW money sometime after cataclysm came out, and i haven't bought D4.
I still game a lot, i still buy games. Just other games, not Blizzard ones. Because they no longer have the quality i liked, and are getting more and more infested with microtransactions. So now, instead of one Blizzard game, i buy 3-5 smaller indies, and probably have a lot more fun that way.
On December 16 2023 03:39 NoobSkills wrote: Every single hater in this thread for whatever reason won't put their money where their mouth is. The biggest factor in all of everything that is wrong with Acti and gaming is most likely rooted in money. You can say X Y Z leadership who ignore sexual harassment and now rush out crappy unfinished games is the problem. You can argue that they should be fired for not firing the guy who sexually harassed other employees, but that dude is really good at pumping out crappy unfinished games. And because 99.99999% of you have bought multiple titles from them in the past few years you support that money making machine, which gladly will ignore any issue you have with anything because they're fucking rich off of it. They sold you SC2 in 3 parts making it a 180 dollar game. Sure there was a little extra story, but you just got suckered into buying an overpriced base game. You've bought the rushed WOW remake, you bought D2R and D3 and despite D3 being a failure you bought D4. You bought that latest rushed COD that is glitchy and overrun by hackers.
You like to complain about it, but refuse to do anything about it. Anyone in a top slot at that company has minimal chance of being fired if they can directly correlate the fact that they spend the least making a video game and generate billions in profits. And negative publicity isn't a deterrant for most people receiving billions in compensation for that publicity.
I (and a bunch of other people in this thread) did put my money where my mouth is. I used to buy everything Blizzard, from BW over Diablo 2, WoW + Lots of expansions + monthly subscription, SC2, Diablo 3, SC2-2.
And now i don't. I haven't bought SC2-3, i haven't bought any of the remakes, i have stopped giving WoW money sometime after cataclysm came out, and i haven't bought D4.
I still game a lot, i still buy games. Just other games, not Blizzard ones. Because they no longer have the quality i liked, and are getting more and more infested with microtransactions. So now, instead of one Blizzard game, i buy 3-5 smaller indies, and probably have a lot more fun that way.
I’ve really no personal issue with micro transactions if they’re done well, of course they frequently aren’t.
WoW I had some fun with but I don’t really like the grind/loot/grind loop, so skipped Diablo after 2. Overwatch I heard was decent but never tried, Warcraft 3 Reforged was a fucking farce and the OG is my favourite game ever, it takes a lot for me not to purchase that.
I loved Diablo 2 (and 1) but so much of that was being a youngster, LANing with my brother and both of us being underdeveloped and not gaming veterans just beating the game was a bit of a challenge.
It ’s pretty easy for me to ‘boycott’ modern Blizzard because they don’t make or support the games I like any more. WC3 was genuinely quite painful as my OG copy doesn’t even work anymore,
graphics really have not improved much in 10 years. Not many games require state of the art 2023 graphics. As a result, games can be made by fewer and fewer people. The industry can go full circle. It can go back to the "garage programmer" days of the 70s and 80s.
River City Ransom was made in the mid 80s by a very small team. in 2016, River City Ransom Underground , a sequel, was made by 1 guy. The game is a blast.
There was a long discussion in here about voice actors wanting to form a union. A few posters seemed to believe a union would solve their problems. Welp, it looks like the Union fucked over the Voice Actors precisely because they are viewed as disposable and low on the totem pole in the creative process of fiction story making. I've never seen a Union fuck over its workers before though. What an unprecedented shock. /s I've stated on multiple occasions that Unions can and do fuck over their workers. No one on this board offered a remedy to that possibility. I'll repeat my remedy. Bet On Yourself and Invest in Yourself. Do Not Rely On A Union.
I hate to be the type of guy to say "I told you so" ,but, "I told you so".
Trying to pretend voice acting is a Profession is a bad career move. The voice actors are on the chopping block and being replaced by AI. Switchboard operators were replaced decades ago by tech. I guess at one point in human history one could've viewed themselves as being in this profession. Switchboard operators had to get other jobs and a smart "Voice Actor" will get ahead of this trend and start preparing for a different work force in 2024 and will have to get another type of job.
The Union's actions speak far louder than my words ever could.
What is so hilarious is ... these giant corps can make AI do all these fancy tricks, but they can't replace Crystal Reports. "Holy 1 Track BatComputer Mind, Batman"... I did that as a 21 year old still in university and have been profiting off of it ever since. C'mon guys!
BTW, I use//edit in the "Holy 1 Track Batcomputer Mind" video clip is my sales presentations. It lightens the mood.
Massive layoffs throughout the industry this year. Lots of layoffs last year.
The brutal reality is ... it only takes a few people about a year to make a really fun game.
How do you line this up with claims (made in regards to, for example, the big Playstation games like God of War and Horizon Forbidden West) that games are now way more expensive to make (= lots of manhours, since labor is the main cost)? Do you think they're making a strategic mistake in making these games when they could be making really fun games way faster and way cheaper? Or is there some other explanation?
There are only so many free time hours of consumers. Games like Risk of Rain 2, River City Underground, Retromania Wrestling, BattleBit and other games made by small teams are eating into those free time hours.
Products like "Nintendo Online" use games made from decades ago for people 35+ and they eat into the # of free hours consumers have at their disposal. An industry of Atari 2600 and Intellivision home brew game makers is fulfilling the video game demands for people 45+.
Unity, UE4, UE5, Gamemaker, and other MOD kits are becoming increasingly mature products. Thus, they get easier and easier to use. A handful of scrappy resourceful creators can pull off a solid game.
So games with teams of 200+ taking 5+ years to develop are fighting for a smaller and smaller piece of the free time pie.
People are claiming what is going on is a repeat of the "1983 video game industry crash". I disagree on two points. #1 that is not happening. #2 there was no 1983 video game crash. In 1983, idiot moves by Mattel and Atari led to them getting smashed. Generally speaking, people played more video games than ever before in 1983. Mattel and Atari, led by outside executives who know zero about the video game industry, did some very stupid moves. This is not happening this time around.
I agree. Plus, governments started printing money en masse. This leads to inflation and this leads to higher interest rates to quell inflation. This pattern has occurred many times in the past 100 years.
Any serious business leader claiming they were blindsided by rising interest rates is either incompetent or lyoing. Every Actuary I know stated higher inflation followed by higher interest rates were coming as soon as several governments started printing and handing out free money during Covid. Any serious analyst knew interest rates were headed upwards 3+ years ago.
Rising interest rates makes investors more risk averse. Many video game projects occur on borrowed money.
As I've been saying since I was 18 years old: the video game industry is pure scum. Check this out... this is hilarious.
Sweet Baby Inc is built upon multiple, massive Quebec government subsidies. They got the standard, BS Quebec video game subsidies. They also got a bunch of other subsidies the Quebec government and Canadian government only hand out to specific Quebec companies that fulfill a bunch of bizarre standards.
I must acknowledge that my wife and I were also able to tap into many of these same resources by claiming my wife owns and runs a company where in reality I own and operate. My wife is just a figurehead and it gets us free money from the stupid Canadian government because on paper my wife is a "woman entrepreneur".
I make and sell a report writer add-on tool; I made the original version in 2009. it is used primarily by actuarial firms. In its next iteration I am adding some re-enforcement learning capabilities. I am considering calling it a new product that is used for video game companies to construct analytics on the habits of their player base. So this is a product made by a "video game company".This way, I can get the same "stack" of subsidies Sweet Baby Inc got. The current version of my report writer is used by 1 video game company so I can probably pull this off. About 25% of my family still lives in Quebec. If I hit the "tri fecta" and get all 3 subsidies I'll post it here.
This is what we call : "Welfare for the Rich". It's dystopian.
EPT
