EPTThe Games Industry And ATVI - Page 53
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jhonmartin
1 Post
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16893 Posts
On September 08 2023 12:04 WombaT wrote: Right, of course. And you say that for regular auld folks trying to unionise and not say, the massively renumerated folks like god forbid his glorious worth ever be criticised, Bobby Kotick. people who get a lot done end up making mistakes. people who sit around and do nothing... can do it perfectly while complaining about everything else. I'm in favour of orgs like the College of Physicians and Surgeons, the Nurses Union, C.U.P.E., even the C.A.W. However , voice acting is not a real profession. One other poster tried to claim I am universally "anti union". Nothing could be further from the truth. IMO, Collective Bargaining is an important aspect of any free market economy. I can't take voice actors' whining about working conditions seriously. As the great philosopher George Thorogood once said "get a haircut and get a real job". Unions regularly rip off their constituents. Forming a union is not the panacea the over simplified media narratives portray. https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2018/01/07/union-theft-embezzlement-theft-significant-reflects-national-business-tr/1005763001/ In conclusion: in my view C.B. is an important and sometimes even critical aspect of a free market economy. THIS DOES NOT MEAN Unions and orgs like the College of Physicians and Surgeons are inherently "good". There are some situations where a good union is a great solution. There is some situations where a union is pointless. A bad union is bad. There are lots of good unions and lots of bad unions out there. THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS. The click bait headlines of these video game journalists and their reporting that barely scratches the surface of these issues is merely comedic fodder. BIBLIO: the "doing nothing perfectly" line comes from Thomas Sowell. On September 08 2023 12:04 WombaT wrote: It’s ridiculous how you don’t so much lick the corporate boots as go full deep throat on it, every single time possible LOL, you don't read my posts. You take a few segments of sentences and then extrapolate. I'm the guy playing EA NHL '94, Starcraft2, and the Borderlands series. Those games give "the corporations" zero money. On September 08 2023 22:31 Ryzel wrote: Specifically January, February, and the first half of March. Somewhere between a quarter and a third of the elapsed time in 2023. Also is not related to your original point, as a lot of these remakes/remasters the public loves use updated voice acting as well. voice acting is not a real profession. any one can be a voice actor. randy pitchford is a "voice actor". A huge number of remakes have no voices. The entire Nintendo online collection has almost zero voice acting. The Nintendo Switch and its online service are an absolute smash hit. The games are fucking amazing and they are ancient. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11610 Posts
However , voice acting is not a real profession. How do you come to that conclusion? Is acting a real profession? Writing? Music? Who gets to decide what is or isn't a real profession? You say that "anyone can be a voice actor", and while that is probably true, i would argue that not anyone can be a good voice actor. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25956 Posts
It is only you claiming that unions are a panacea, albeit to disavow some hypothetical objector. Nobody here is claiming they’re perfect institutions that fix every issue, just that on the face of how the industry operates they’re likely to be an upgrade for average Joe and Jane. Yes you’re a very pro-union fellow, obviously, despite negatively presenting them every single post in this thread. The contrast in the lens of scrutiny you apply to dear old Bobby Kotick and unionisation moves really couldn’t be more stark. | ||
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StasisField
United States1086 Posts
any one can be a voice actor. Only an idiot would say this. Case and point: https://youtube.com/shorts/W0aYUARWhUM?si=z5K3XxET820kOBS0 If you're actually so irrationally upset by the mere mention of unions like Jimmy is that you lash out like a child and attempt to devalue a skilled profession as not a real job, then you might want to visit a psychologist, show them where the union touched you, and get some help. | ||
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Fleetfeet
Canada2601 Posts
hits the same as any one can be a singer Yeah fuck it man, you've got hands? You can be a draw er. Not even a real profession. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25956 Posts
On September 22 2023 03:01 StasisField wrote: Only an idiot would say this. Case and point: https://youtube.com/shorts/W0aYUARWhUM?si=z5K3XxET820kOBS0 If you're actually so irrationally upset by the mere mention of unions like Jimmy is that you lash out like a child and attempt to devalue a skilled profession as not a real job, then you might want to visit a psychologist, show them where the union touched you, and get some help. Jimmy isn’t against unions, I understand one can get that impression when he talks negatively about them every single post, or says they’re moving to unionise for something that isn’t even a ‘real job’ But he’s pro-union! Just as Idra deep down had a profound respect for Protoss players back in the day | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16893 Posts
On September 21 2023 23:11 WombaT wrote: They aren’t primarily complaining about working conditions though Jimmy they’re particularly focused on their prior work being used to feed AI approximations of their voice, which wasn’t a factor or technically feasible on much of their old work, thus contracts may leave them vulnerable to. they're whining about working conditions. you can employ word play using the word "primarily" if you like. Here they are whining about working conditions. https://www.theguardian.com/games/2022/oct/18/an-insult-video-game-voice-actors-speak-out-to-demand-fair-pay On September 22 2023 03:01 StasisField wrote: If you're actually so irrationally upset by the mere mention of unions like Jimmy is that you lash out like a child i've already explained my perspective on unions and collective bargaining. this is not my perspective on unions. you are not reading my posts. A union for hospital workers can be a great collective bargaining unit. A union for software makers doesn't work and is a waste of time. That's my view... I've said it many times in this thread. You are ignoring these statement I guess? On September 22 2023 03:59 Fleetfeet wrote: any one can be a voice actor hits the same as any one can be a singer Yeah fuck it man, you've got hands? You can be a draw er. Not even a real profession. a voice actor is merely an element of a fantasy world presentation. Contrast this with Jason Patric the guy who played Jim Raynor in Rush. Jason Patric is in very real danger during his on screen performances. To wit... Big difference between what the guy voicing Jim Raynor, the fantasy cartoon character in Starcraft, had to do and the guy who played Jim Raynor on film. Jason Patric takes on a huge risk of brutal physical injuries as part of his job. Clotworthy risks nothing. I totally get why nurses, actors, factory workers, and night shift retail employees want and need a union. They are at great physical risk every hour they are at work. | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5221 Posts
On September 22 2023 15:04 JimmyJRaynor wrote: they're whining about working conditions. you can employ word play using the word "primarily" if you like. Here they are whining about working conditions. https://www.theguardian.com/games/2022/oct/18/an-insult-video-game-voice-actors-speak-out-to-demand-fair-pay i've already explained my perspective on unions and collective bargaining. this is not my perspective on unions. you are not reading my posts. A union for hospital workers can be a great collective bargaining unit. A union for software makers doesn't work and is a waste of time. That's my view... I've said it many times in this thread. You are ignoring these statement I guess? a voice actor is merely an element of a fantasy world presentation. Contrast this with Jason Patric the guy who played Jim Raynor in Rush. Jason Patric is in very real danger during his on screen performances. To wit... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxWV4KDMed4 Big difference between what the guy voicing Jim Raynor, the fantasy cartoon character in Starcraft, had to do and the guy who played Jim Raynor on film. Jason Patric takes on a huge risk of brutal physical injuries as part of his job. Clotworthy risks nothing. I totally get why nurses, actors, factory workers, and night shift retail employees want and need a union. They are at great physical risk every hour they are at work. What do you think about software developers who were at physical risk every hour while working for ActiBlizz? When they were physically at risk from overtime, or physically at risk from abuse and groping and felt like they were in danger, in very real danger during their work hours? | ||
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Tayyaba
2 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11610 Posts
On September 22 2023 15:04 JimmyJRaynor wrote: they're whining about working conditions. you can employ word play using the word "primarily" if you like. Here they are whining about working conditions. https://www.theguardian.com/games/2022/oct/18/an-insult-video-game-voice-actors-speak-out-to-demand-fair-pay i've already explained my perspective on unions and collective bargaining. this is not my perspective on unions. you are not reading my posts. A union for hospital workers can be a great collective bargaining unit. A union for software makers doesn't work and is a waste of time. That's my view... I've said it many times in this thread. You are ignoring these statement I guess? a voice actor is merely an element of a fantasy world presentation. Contrast this with Jason Patric the guy who played Jim Raynor in Rush. Jason Patric is in very real danger during his on screen performances. To wit... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxWV4KDMed4 Big difference between what the guy voicing Jim Raynor, the fantasy cartoon character in Starcraft, had to do and the guy who played Jim Raynor on film. Jason Patric takes on a huge risk of brutal physical injuries as part of his job. Clotworthy risks nothing. I totally get why nurses, actors, factory workers, and night shift retail employees want and need a union. They are at great physical risk every hour they are at work. I am a teacher. I am usually not under any risk of real danger at my work. Is my job not a real job? Why would danger be relevant to determine if a job is a valid profession? Or if people need a union? Unions don't only negotiate about workplace protections, they can also negotiate other stuff like compensation, vacation time, and so forth. | ||
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Fleetfeet
Canada2601 Posts
On September 22 2023 15:04 JimmyJRaynor wrote: they're whining about working conditions. you can employ word play using the word "primarily" if you like. Here they are whining about working conditions. https://www.theguardian.com/games/2022/oct/18/an-insult-video-game-voice-actors-speak-out-to-demand-fair-pay i've already explained my perspective on unions and collective bargaining. this is not my perspective on unions. you are not reading my posts. A union for hospital workers can be a great collective bargaining unit. A union for software makers doesn't work and is a waste of time. That's my view... I've said it many times in this thread. You are ignoring these statement I guess? a voice actor is merely an element of a fantasy world presentation. Contrast this with Jason Patric the guy who played Jim Raynor in Rush. Jason Patric is in very real danger during his on screen performances. To wit... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxWV4KDMed4 Big difference between what the guy voicing Jim Raynor, the fantasy cartoon character in Starcraft, had to do and the guy who played Jim Raynor on film. Jason Patric takes on a huge risk of brutal physical injuries as part of his job. Clotworthy risks nothing. I totally get why nurses, actors, factory workers, and night shift retail employees want and need a union. They are at great physical risk every hour they are at work. This didn't elaborate on your position or defend it in a meaningful way. You just attempted to move the goalposts to some other dumb shit. Keep living in your awkward fantasy land where you get to determine who does and doesn't have value. | ||
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granttransomeson
1 Post
User was banned for this post. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16893 Posts
No need for a union at Nintendo because everyone is happy. LOL. https://www.ign.com/articles/nintendo-of-america-doesnt-have-unions-partly-because-of-high-employee-satisfaction-president-says On September 24 2023 00:37 Fleetfeet wrote: This didn't elaborate on your position or defend it in a meaningful way. You just attempted to move the goalposts to some other dumb shit. Keep living in your awkward fantasy land where you get to determine who does and doesn't have value. LOGICAL FALLACY: appeal to mockery. The "value" is the creators of teh minute to minute game play action in an action game. Without the awesome action nothing else is possible. The Intellivsion came first. its success made possible the "Intellivoice" voice synthesis module and the first games with VOICE. The creators of the minute to minute action make possible for a budget to pay any voices to be in an action game. I explained exactly why voice acting is not a real profession. Acting is a real profession. Take the Borderlands universe for example. The #1 "voice" is that of Handsome Jack .. voiced by a real life actor. The #2 "voice" of the universe is Clap Trap ... voiced by an employee who is a full time artist. Crazy Earl is voiced by the CEO Randy Pitchford. Blizzard artist Chris Metzen is one of the most iconic voices of the Warcraft universe. Any one can be a part time voice actor. The voice actor people claiming they are in some kind of real profession (like medicine or law or education or actuarial) are taking themselves too seriously. It is hilarious the voice actors are whining about being "replaced by AI" when, in fact, the first voices in video games were CPU generated non-human voices. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25956 Posts
On October 25 2023 01:04 JimmyJRaynor wrote: The solution for morale problems at any company is just to fire all the unhappy people. No need for a union at Nintendo because everyone is happy. LOL. https://www.ign.com/articles/nintendo-of-america-doesnt-have-unions-partly-because-of-high-employee-satisfaction-president-says LOGICAL FALLACY: appeal to mockery. The "value" is the creators of teh minute to minute game play action in an action game. Without the awesome action nothing else is possible. The Intellivsion came first. its success made possible the "Intellivoice" voice synthesis module and the first games with VOICE. The creators of the minute to minute action make possible for a budget to pay any voices to be in an action game. I explained exactly why voice acting is not a real profession. Acting is a real profession. Take the Borderlands universe for example. The #1 "voice" is that of Handsome Jack .. voiced by a real life actor. The #2 "voice" of the universe is Clap Trap ... voiced by an employee who is a full time artist. Crazy Earl is voiced by the CEO Randy Pitchford. Blizzard artist Chris Metzen is one of the most iconic voices of the Warcraft universe. Any one can be a part time voice actor. The voice actor people claiming they are in some kind of real profession (like medicine or law or education or actuarial) are taking themselves too seriously. It is hilarious the voice actors are whining about being "replaced by AI" when, in fact, the first voices in video games were CPU generated non-human voices. Aren’t Nintendo very notable for not subjecting their devs to crazy crunch and for *shock* actually pushing games back rather than doing so? Didn’t Iwata take a huge pay cut, and other executives take hefty but lesser ones after a particularly bad set of financials? Sure the latter doesn’t make a huge dent on said financials, but symbolically and morale wise, rather important no? Wow no shit a company who already treats their employees relatively well has a workforce less inclined to unionise. But please, more folksy references to systems and companies half a century ago as if they’re particularly relevant to the wider industry today | ||
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Fleetfeet
Canada2601 Posts
On October 25 2023 01:04 JimmyJRaynor wrote: The solution for morale problems at any company is just to fire all the unhappy people. No need for a union at Nintendo because everyone is happy. LOL. https://www.ign.com/articles/nintendo-of-america-doesnt-have-unions-partly-because-of-high-employee-satisfaction-president-says LOGICAL FALLACY: appeal to mockery. The "value" is the creators of teh minute to minute game play action in an action game. Without the awesome action nothing else is possible. The Intellivsion came first. its success made possible the "Intellivoice" voice synthesis module and the first games with VOICE. The creators of the minute to minute action make possible for a budget to pay any voices to be in an action game. I explained exactly why voice acting is not a real profession. Acting is a real profession. Take the Borderlands universe for example. The #1 "voice" is that of Handsome Jack .. voiced by a real life actor. The #2 "voice" of the universe is Clap Trap ... voiced by an employee who is a full time artist. Crazy Earl is voiced by the CEO Randy Pitchford. Blizzard artist Chris Metzen is one of the most iconic voices of the Warcraft universe. Any one can be a part time voice actor. The voice actor people claiming they are in some kind of real profession (like medicine or law or education or actuarial) are taking themselves too seriously. It is hilarious the voice actors are whining about being "replaced by AI" when, in fact, the first voices in video games were CPU generated non-human voices. Your argument isn't a real argument. Source : I decided I'm the arbiter of what is and isn't a real argument. | ||
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goiflin
Canada1218 Posts
On October 25 2023 01:04 JimmyJRaynor wrote: The solution for morale problems at any company is just to fire all the unhappy people. No need for a union at Nintendo because everyone is happy. LOL. https://www.ign.com/articles/nintendo-of-america-doesnt-have-unions-partly-because-of-high-employee-satisfaction-president-says LOGICAL FALLACY: appeal to mockery. The "value" is the creators of teh minute to minute game play action in an action game. Without the awesome action nothing else is possible. The Intellivsion came first. its success made possible the "Intellivoice" voice synthesis module and the first games with VOICE. The creators of the minute to minute action make possible for a budget to pay any voices to be in an action game. I explained exactly why voice acting is not a real profession. Acting is a real profession. Take the Borderlands universe for example. The #1 "voice" is that of Handsome Jack .. voiced by a real life actor. The #2 "voice" of the universe is Clap Trap ... voiced by an employee who is a full time artist. Crazy Earl is voiced by the CEO Randy Pitchford. Blizzard artist Chris Metzen is one of the most iconic voices of the Warcraft universe. Any one can be a part time voice actor. The voice actor people claiming they are in some kind of real profession (like medicine or law or education or actuarial) are taking themselves too seriously. It is hilarious the voice actors are whining about being "replaced by AI" when, in fact, the first voices in video games were CPU generated non-human voices. it's funny you bring up borderlands because the VA for claptrap got physically assaulted by randy, which is pretty relevant to your claims of a lack of danger. I'll be real; there's a lot of industries that you probably don't think are "real jobs" that have far, far more danger than whatever shit you do with your days which kind of makes your arbitration of what is and is not "real" fucking laughable at best. Cool, your mom was a nurse. You're not. You're just some paper pusher. You wouldn't know danger if it looked you in the eye. Cooks are in more danger of bodily injury than many industries with unions. 12+ hour workdays are not uncommon, unpaid work being the expectation is the rule and not the exception, severely damaging coping mechanisms (coke, chain smoking, alcoholism, etc.) are extremely high in the culinary industry, lifespans genuinely shorter in that industry than many others, and the pay rate is far lower than other jobs with similar dangers despite the high skill requirement for working at higher level culinary jobs. Are other jobs not a "real job" because cooks have it worse? Fuck no, that's such a childish way at looking at things. People in the video game industry should unionize if more companies aren't willing to be decent to them (IE: not assfuck their employees consistently). The precise reason unions pop up is because working conditions are not good enough. You cannot rely on the goodwill of the people on top to solve problems. This is also why people literally got shot in the early 20th century to get such firvolities as "consistent pay", "breaks", "weekends", and "a rope to catch me if I slip off this skyscraper I'm building". Some people on top will be decent human beings. People should seek out employment with them over shitty ones, absolutely. There are also not enough decent human beings on top to actually give everyone jobs. And since we don't have a basic income, people are enslaved to work or go homeless. People need to make the changes that will make workplaces workable a legal stipulation of their continued productivity. And armchair office shmucks who got handed their life on a silver platter like yourself, never starved, never had to grind to survive, never been at risk of injury or death in a workplace need to spend more time listening, rather than lecturing the people who understand what the fuck is going on in the world. You know what else we could replace with AI? CEOs. Paper pushers. Bankers. Marketing. It'd save a lot more money for companies than replacing their voice actors. But since these people are the ones making decisions, you won't see that shit since they want their paychecks and they know they won't survive the real world since they have no actual marketable skills besides licking boots and being thin-skinned bitches. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7376 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16893 Posts
On October 25 2023 04:16 goiflin wrote: it's funny you bring up borderlands because the VA for claptrap got physically assaulted by randy, which is pretty relevant to your claims of a lack of danger. that doesn't have much to do with whether or not the ARTIST who voiced Clap Trap is in a profession known as voice acting though. also, it was only an accusation. nothing was proven. rich powerful people get accused of stuff all the time. in the Trevor Bauer case and the Duke Lacrosse case it appears the "victims" instructed other people to injure them so they had bruises for photo shock. so , who knows. figuring out what actually happened is a research project for which i do not have time. On October 25 2023 03:04 Fleetfeet wrote: Your argument isn't a real argument. Source : I decided I'm the arbiter of what is and isn't a real argument. "Echoes From the Borderlands" just did an hour show about the Voice Actors in the game. The voice actors themselves joked for about 10 minutes about how its not even a real job nevermind a profession. Voices in games have been CPU generated since 1982. The voice actors are going to have to accept the fact that they can easily be replaced by machines because the whole thing started with machines. EDIT: i forgot..... Stratovox 1980. CPU generated voice in game. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11610 Posts
I am of the firm opinion that if you can reliably convince people to pay you money to do a thing, then that thing is a real job, you are a professional, and if it takes some skill to do the thing, meaning that not any random guy could do the same thing (which is usually shown by the fact that you are earning above minimum wage), then it is a profession. There need not be any arbitrary criteria by random people to decide what a real job is. Why do we need to gatekeep this? | ||
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