• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 07:02
CEST 13:02
KST 20:02
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins EWC 202515Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 20259Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15
Community News
[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder2EWC 2025 - Replay Pack2Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced27BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0
StarCraft 2
General
Serral wins EWC 2025 #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Greatest Players of All Time: 2025 Update Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 EWC 2025 - Replay Pack
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event TaeJa vs Creator Bo7 SC Evo Showmatch Esports World Cup 2025 $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune
Brood War
General
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced Shield Battery Server New Patch BW General Discussion [BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
Does 1 second matter in StarCraft? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread UK Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 655 users

The Games Industry And ATVI - Page 48

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
Prev 1 46 47 48 49 50 77 Next
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17257 Posts
May 14 2021 21:30 GMT
#941
I'm not actually interested in this game but I know a lot of people are. I did play my fair share of MMOs and nowadays I mostly stick to single-player games, much less chance for disappointment there.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
Harris1st
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Germany6927 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-15 07:40:32
May 14 2021 22:30 GMT
#942
On May 15 2021 06:30 Manit0u wrote:
I'm not actually interested in this game but I know a lot of people are. I did play my fair share of MMOs and nowadays I mostly stick to single-player games, much less chance for disappointment there.


In that case, I'm kinda hyped for Biomutant
Whaddaya think about that one?

Though I still think some sort of catch up boost or something for ppl who start late or simply have less time is okay. As long as they are capped somehow
Go Serral! GG EZ for Ence. Flashbang dance FTW
Archeon
Profile Joined May 2011
3253 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-14 23:02:55
May 14 2021 23:01 GMT
#943
On May 15 2021 07:30 Harris1st wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2021 06:30 Manit0u wrote:
I'm not actually interested in this game but I know a lot of people are. I did play my fair share of MMOs and nowadays I mostly stick to single-player games, much less chance for disappointment there.


In that case, I'm kinda hyped for Biomutant
Whaddaya think about that one?

Though I still don't think some sort of catch up boost or something for ppl who start late or simply have less time is okay. As long as they are capped somehow

Imo the problem with catch up boosts is that it only makes sense if your leveling sucks and if your leveling sucks you made a ton of boring content. So imo it'd be better to make the leveling content engaging than use a band-aid that can be monetized, which always brings the hidden incentive to make leveling more boring and slow in order to bring more money in.

The usual solution is to create dungeons with variable player sizes so ppl who want more challenge can just go lower on the party numbers, but they need the more exploration heavy populace for their player count, so they can't make mainly dungeons and shared cities like GW1 if they want a large consistent player count.
low gravity, yes-yes!
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17257 Posts
May 15 2021 00:41 GMT
#944
Heh, I'm still playing GW1 from time to time. By far my favorite MMO (not counting Genesis MUD which I've been playing for 23 years now).
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
May 15 2021 08:31 GMT
#945
On May 15 2021 08:01 Archeon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2021 07:30 Harris1st wrote:
On May 15 2021 06:30 Manit0u wrote:
I'm not actually interested in this game but I know a lot of people are. I did play my fair share of MMOs and nowadays I mostly stick to single-player games, much less chance for disappointment there.


In that case, I'm kinda hyped for Biomutant
Whaddaya think about that one?

Though I still don't think some sort of catch up boost or something for ppl who start late or simply have less time is okay. As long as they are capped somehow

Imo the problem with catch up boosts is that it only makes sense if your leveling sucks and if your leveling sucks you made a ton of boring content. So imo it'd be better to make the leveling content engaging than use a band-aid that can be monetized, which always brings the hidden incentive to make leveling more boring and slow in order to bring more money in.

The usual solution is to create dungeons with variable player sizes so ppl who want more challenge can just go lower on the party numbers, but they need the more exploration heavy populace for their player count, so they can't make mainly dungeons and shared cities like GW1 if they want a large consistent player count.

Every leveling done for the 51st time is boring. SWTOR has one of the best base leveling out there and trust me - it gets boring. It gets boring pretty fast. Like really really fast. I have over 40 characters in there IIRC(haven't logged for a long time) And if you skip the content you lose some fancy things(e.g. the Darth title which is really unfortunate for a Star Wars Sith character )

No matter how good your leveling system is, if you force multiple characters and multiple leveling from the start it will get boring eventually. Also not everyone is so hyped about leveling no matter how engaging you do that because some people just want to do the endgame content - e.g. in many games leveling through PvP is harder than leveling through PvE. Some players don't give a flying fuck about the PvE but to access the endgame PvP you need the level. And the hardcore PvE players just see the dungeons and OW PvE as a boring barrier to raids, where the PvE really begins.
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17257 Posts
May 15 2021 21:18 GMT
#946
Heh, for me the best part of any MMO is the leveling process. Most end game stuff is boring as hell for me (like doing dungeons over and over again).
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
Archeon
Profile Joined May 2011
3253 Posts
May 16 2021 01:41 GMT
#947
On May 15 2021 17:31 deacon.frost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2021 08:01 Archeon wrote:
On May 15 2021 07:30 Harris1st wrote:
On May 15 2021 06:30 Manit0u wrote:
I'm not actually interested in this game but I know a lot of people are. I did play my fair share of MMOs and nowadays I mostly stick to single-player games, much less chance for disappointment there.


In that case, I'm kinda hyped for Biomutant
Whaddaya think about that one?

Though I still don't think some sort of catch up boost or something for ppl who start late or simply have less time is okay. As long as they are capped somehow

Imo the problem with catch up boosts is that it only makes sense if your leveling sucks and if your leveling sucks you made a ton of boring content. So imo it'd be better to make the leveling content engaging than use a band-aid that can be monetized, which always brings the hidden incentive to make leveling more boring and slow in order to bring more money in.

The usual solution is to create dungeons with variable player sizes so ppl who want more challenge can just go lower on the party numbers, but they need the more exploration heavy populace for their player count, so they can't make mainly dungeons and shared cities like GW1 if they want a large consistent player count.

Every leveling done for the 51st time is boring. SWTOR has one of the best base leveling out there and trust me - it gets boring. It gets boring pretty fast. Like really really fast. I have over 40 characters in there IIRC(haven't logged for a long time) And if you skip the content you lose some fancy things(e.g. the Darth title which is really unfortunate for a Star Wars Sith character )

No matter how good your leveling system is, if you force multiple characters and multiple leveling from the start it will get boring eventually. Also not everyone is so hyped about leveling no matter how engaging you do that because some people just want to do the endgame content - e.g. in many games leveling through PvP is harder than leveling through PvE. Some players don't give a flying fuck about the PvE but to access the endgame PvP you need the level. And the hardcore PvE players just see the dungeons and OW PvE as a boring barrier to raids, where the PvE really begins.

I get all these, but let's be honest, there is no reason why lategame needs to be more engaging than playing through the leveling area. If you create story quests, an open world and team-based dungeons so everyone can pick their poison there's no reason to level-gate this or that content unless you want to sell boosters. Games like GW2 or blade and soul introduced dungeons with a decent challenge fairly early on and in SWTOR I can try the 2/4-man dungeons solo if I want a challenge.

Like MMOs tend to have this distribution into OW leveling phase for explorers and social players and lategame dungeon/raid phase for the gameplay faction and unless your power growth is extremely exponential I don't see the point of level-gating the latter. Because like you say at some point the leveling phase gets boring and the gameplay people only play to use their char at max level in raids, but that basically means that only ~1% of the game actually has replay value for them.

And SWTOR imo really isn't a good case for good base leveling. The story representation is entertaining, but outside of the main quest you know the rest with your second char of the same faction. Else it's imo a typical case of extremely boring leveling, from lack of challenge to strong build limitations to slowed down fights with channel times and global cds to long ass travel times TOR does everything to make the actual gameplay during leveling as dull as possible.
low gravity, yes-yes!
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17257 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-16 02:35:03
May 16 2021 02:34 GMT
#948


So, even other devs are getting on the cash shop hate.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-16 04:37:40
May 16 2021 04:30 GMT
#949
I agree with Archeon but i would add I think the OW leveling gameplay, when it involves nearby players whether for coop or pvp or a mix of both can be great and is exactly what I'm looking for in a MMO. That's why wow vanilla on a high pop server (no layers etc) is amazing, as long as there are always and everywhere players near you the gameplay is the best! Totally challenging especially when pvp is involved too. I don't really get bored with the leveling game, the only thing that matters for fun factor is that there are always players around, no low pop, no layers etc. [Because i would say wow is not a good single player game eheh ] So if you played on Nostalrius and some other places like that or some server openings you know what I mean i think, 100% would do it again but it's hard to find the place for it actually. (wow classic only was first few weeks, too low pop due to layers and i suppose player cap too and other issues that came up later i heard about boost meta because of bad balance changes etc)
I understand ppl who like raids and stuff but it's not what I come to a MMO for, I want open world stuff not instances, so I barely ever do BGs also. Anyway there's no reason these can't be good at any level not just max level etc.
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17984 Posts
May 16 2021 07:47 GMT
#950
On May 16 2021 13:30 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
I agree with Archeon but i would add I think the OW leveling gameplay, when it involves nearby players whether for coop or pvp or a mix of both can be great and is exactly what I'm looking for in a MMO. That's why wow vanilla on a high pop server (no layers etc) is amazing, as long as there are always and everywhere players near you the gameplay is the best! Totally challenging especially when pvp is involved too. I don't really get bored with the leveling game, the only thing that matters for fun factor is that there are always players around, no low pop, no layers etc. [Because i would say wow is not a good single player game eheh ] So if you played on Nostalrius and some other places like that or some server openings you know what I mean i think, 100% would do it again but it's hard to find the place for it actually. (wow classic only was first few weeks, too low pop due to layers and i suppose player cap too and other issues that came up later i heard about boost meta because of bad balance changes etc)
I understand ppl who like raids and stuff but it's not what I come to a MMO for, I want open world stuff not instances, so I barely ever do BGs also. Anyway there's no reason these can't be good at any level not just max level etc.

You say that, but the very first foray into Burning Crusade was hell. As a warlock I took to wanding monsters to tag them. The PvP wasn't the problem. It was competing with your own faction for monsters (or collectibles). Having enough other players around, such as in the Barrens, is fun. Having too many is worse than playing it through solo.
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-16 10:25:25
May 16 2021 10:23 GMT
#951
On May 16 2021 06:18 Manit0u wrote:
Heh, for me the best part of any MMO is the leveling process. Most end game stuff is boring as hell for me (like doing dungeons over and over again).

Yeah, but most players see it the other way around.

On May 16 2021 10:41 Archeon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2021 17:31 deacon.frost wrote:
On May 15 2021 08:01 Archeon wrote:
On May 15 2021 07:30 Harris1st wrote:
On May 15 2021 06:30 Manit0u wrote:
I'm not actually interested in this game but I know a lot of people are. I did play my fair share of MMOs and nowadays I mostly stick to single-player games, much less chance for disappointment there.


In that case, I'm kinda hyped for Biomutant
Whaddaya think about that one?

Though I still don't think some sort of catch up boost or something for ppl who start late or simply have less time is okay. As long as they are capped somehow

Imo the problem with catch up boosts is that it only makes sense if your leveling sucks and if your leveling sucks you made a ton of boring content. So imo it'd be better to make the leveling content engaging than use a band-aid that can be monetized, which always brings the hidden incentive to make leveling more boring and slow in order to bring more money in.

The usual solution is to create dungeons with variable player sizes so ppl who want more challenge can just go lower on the party numbers, but they need the more exploration heavy populace for their player count, so they can't make mainly dungeons and shared cities like GW1 if they want a large consistent player count.

Every leveling done for the 51st time is boring. SWTOR has one of the best base leveling out there and trust me - it gets boring. It gets boring pretty fast. Like really really fast. I have over 40 characters in there IIRC(haven't logged for a long time) And if you skip the content you lose some fancy things(e.g. the Darth title which is really unfortunate for a Star Wars Sith character )

No matter how good your leveling system is, if you force multiple characters and multiple leveling from the start it will get boring eventually. Also not everyone is so hyped about leveling no matter how engaging you do that because some people just want to do the endgame content - e.g. in many games leveling through PvP is harder than leveling through PvE. Some players don't give a flying fuck about the PvE but to access the endgame PvP you need the level. And the hardcore PvE players just see the dungeons and OW PvE as a boring barrier to raids, where the PvE really begins.

I get all these, but let's be honest, there is no reason why lategame needs to be more engaging than playing through the leveling area. If you create story quests, an open world and team-based dungeons so everyone can pick their poison there's no reason to level-gate this or that content unless you want to sell boosters. Games like GW2 or blade and soul introduced dungeons with a decent challenge fairly early on and in SWTOR I can try the 2/4-man dungeons solo if I want a challenge.

Like MMOs tend to have this distribution into OW leveling phase for explorers and social players and lategame dungeon/raid phase for the gameplay faction and unless your power growth is extremely exponential I don't see the point of level-gating the latter. Because like you say at some point the leveling phase gets boring and the gameplay people only play to use their char at max level in raids, but that basically means that only ~1% of the game actually has replay value for them.

And SWTOR imo really isn't a good case for good base leveling. The story representation is entertaining, but outside of the main quest you know the rest with your second char of the same faction. Else it's imo a typical case of extremely boring leveling, from lack of challenge to strong build limitations to slowed down fights with channel times and global cds to long ass travel times TOR does everything to make the actual gameplay during leveling as dull as possible.

Yeah, it is also over 10 years old and was obsolete-ish when it was released. I use it as an example because I know it. From what I've tried every other MMO has boring leveling. Be it FF14, GW2 or WoW. Out of these 4 the biggest winner is me not playing them

The endgame is more engaging because it is the endgame. It is the target experience for the most players. If you're a typical MMORPG player you spend hundreds of hours in the endgame and less than a hundred hours in the leveling process. So from the economic point of view - yes, the endgame has to be more endgaging because players will spend there the majority of their time. In other words - you want to keep the players in the game once they reach the max level

Yes, there are players who like to level again and again and again and again. But they're certainly not majority otherwise the leveling experience would have been better

Also notice how you write that you would solo something. In an RPG game you want to solo the shit. This is IMO the biggest issue MMORPG are facing. In what RPG game you would scratch the party and solo the shit? Let's check some the biggest RPG games:
ME - party, KOTOR - party, Baldur's Gate - party

And now let's add that you're playing a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER. WTF? If you want to solo and experience great leveling MMORPG is the worst RPG you can play. Sure, it is an issue if you're a big Star Wars or Warcraft fan(e.g.). But that's how it is.

Edit>
Most people simply don't care about the journey, they care about the target of the journey
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21672 Posts
May 16 2021 10:29 GMT
#952
If your mainly interested in the level part then are you not more looking for an RPG then an MMO-RPG?
I don't know how the multiplayer of RPG's is these days, I play solo but if you want to play an RPG with other people for the story and leveling then I would suspect your more likely to find your grove there then in enjoying just the levelling aspect of an MMO.
Tho some like SWTOR are really good and certainly worth doing.

And as always, If you enjoy levelling in MMO's then I'm not telling you not to or saying your doing it 'wrong'. You do you.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17984 Posts
May 16 2021 12:57 GMT
#953
On May 16 2021 19:29 Gorsameth wrote:
If your mainly interested in the level part then are you not more looking for an RPG then an MMO-RPG?
I don't know how the multiplayer of RPG's is these days, I play solo but if you want to play an RPG with other people for the story and leveling then I would suspect your more likely to find your grove there then in enjoying just the levelling aspect of an MMO.
Tho some like SWTOR are really good and certainly worth doing.

And as always, If you enjoy levelling in MMO's then I'm not telling you not to or saying your doing it 'wrong'. You do you.

You think leveling = solo questing. I guess that just means WoW (and EverQuest) has brainwashed everyone into thinking that's the way to level in an MMORPG. It really shouldn't be tho. If you design the MMO part into the leveling as well, maybe people who want to play an MMORPG won't want to pay to skip it?
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17257 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-16 15:25:16
May 16 2021 15:23 GMT
#954
On May 16 2021 19:23 deacon.frost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 16 2021 06:18 Manit0u wrote:
Heh, for me the best part of any MMO is the leveling process. Most end game stuff is boring as hell for me (like doing dungeons over and over again).

Yeah, but most players see it the other way around.


Are you sure? AFAIK actually very low % of the playerbase usually engages in super end game stuff with scheduled raiding, pushing for the rankings, organized PvP etc.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-16 15:47:24
May 16 2021 15:32 GMT
#955
Yeah I heard many players say the opposite as you deacon and instead "it's about the journey not the destination" (certainly exactly the way i feel, I take all the time to enjoy myself from first minute and focus on the journey always, if the journey is bad i'll leave the game) and referring to players who only care about some part of the endgame as raidlogging which is bad for the game etc. Idk but I think, if leveling isn't a huge important part of the gameplay in a MMO then there is a major design flaw there, why have leveling that takes days of playtime right? Is it purely for ensuring a subscription that lasts that long? ^^ to make you so invested that it's harder to quit or something? but again, I enjoy myself greatly during leveling, it's not about single player, all about unforeseen and unpredictable encounters everywhere, plus resource control and etc. Yes there can be issues with overpopulation, tbh that phase is usually pretty fun and doesn't really last that long. Although on a super crowded server you can indeed have hectic non stop pvp that can be pretty disabling when you don't know how to deal with it (overlevel or go to a less popular area of same level etc).
I think a lot of players play wow to level 40+ and level a bunch of chars. They'll still play hundreds of hours. They're a big portion of the playerbase, sometimes heard that's most players. And honestly you can get a lot of the great OW experience playing at these levels, you don't really need the max level. At 40+ you even already have nearly all your spells ready also; and low level pvp is really fun and nice too (ofc some ppl also make twinks and stuff). All you really need is players around you to fight with and against.
Archeon
Profile Joined May 2011
3253 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-16 17:01:13
May 16 2021 16:53 GMT
#956
On May 16 2021 19:23 deacon.frost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 16 2021 06:18 Manit0u wrote:
Heh, for me the best part of any MMO is the leveling process. Most end game stuff is boring as hell for me (like doing dungeons over and over again).

Yeah, but most players see it the other way around.

Show nested quote +
On May 16 2021 10:41 Archeon wrote:
On May 15 2021 17:31 deacon.frost wrote:
On May 15 2021 08:01 Archeon wrote:
On May 15 2021 07:30 Harris1st wrote:
On May 15 2021 06:30 Manit0u wrote:
I'm not actually interested in this game but I know a lot of people are. I did play my fair share of MMOs and nowadays I mostly stick to single-player games, much less chance for disappointment there.


In that case, I'm kinda hyped for Biomutant
Whaddaya think about that one?

Though I still don't think some sort of catch up boost or something for ppl who start late or simply have less time is okay. As long as they are capped somehow

Imo the problem with catch up boosts is that it only makes sense if your leveling sucks and if your leveling sucks you made a ton of boring content. So imo it'd be better to make the leveling content engaging than use a band-aid that can be monetized, which always brings the hidden incentive to make leveling more boring and slow in order to bring more money in.

The usual solution is to create dungeons with variable player sizes so ppl who want more challenge can just go lower on the party numbers, but they need the more exploration heavy populace for their player count, so they can't make mainly dungeons and shared cities like GW1 if they want a large consistent player count.

Every leveling done for the 51st time is boring. SWTOR has one of the best base leveling out there and trust me - it gets boring. It gets boring pretty fast. Like really really fast. I have over 40 characters in there IIRC(haven't logged for a long time) And if you skip the content you lose some fancy things(e.g. the Darth title which is really unfortunate for a Star Wars Sith character )

No matter how good your leveling system is, if you force multiple characters and multiple leveling from the start it will get boring eventually. Also not everyone is so hyped about leveling no matter how engaging you do that because some people just want to do the endgame content - e.g. in many games leveling through PvP is harder than leveling through PvE. Some players don't give a flying fuck about the PvE but to access the endgame PvP you need the level. And the hardcore PvE players just see the dungeons and OW PvE as a boring barrier to raids, where the PvE really begins.

I get all these, but let's be honest, there is no reason why lategame needs to be more engaging than playing through the leveling area. If you create story quests, an open world and team-based dungeons so everyone can pick their poison there's no reason to level-gate this or that content unless you want to sell boosters. Games like GW2 or blade and soul introduced dungeons with a decent challenge fairly early on and in SWTOR I can try the 2/4-man dungeons solo if I want a challenge.

Like MMOs tend to have this distribution into OW leveling phase for explorers and social players and lategame dungeon/raid phase for the gameplay faction and unless your power growth is extremely exponential I don't see the point of level-gating the latter. Because like you say at some point the leveling phase gets boring and the gameplay people only play to use their char at max level in raids, but that basically means that only ~1% of the game actually has replay value for them.

And SWTOR imo really isn't a good case for good base leveling. The story representation is entertaining, but outside of the main quest you know the rest with your second char of the same faction. Else it's imo a typical case of extremely boring leveling, from lack of challenge to strong build limitations to slowed down fights with channel times and global cds to long ass travel times TOR does everything to make the actual gameplay during leveling as dull as possible.

Yeah, it is also over 10 years old and was obsolete-ish when it was released. I use it as an example because I know it. From what I've tried every other MMO has boring leveling. Be it FF14, GW2 or WoW. Out of these 4 the biggest winner is me not playing them

The endgame is more engaging because it is the endgame. It is the target experience for the most players. If you're a typical MMORPG player you spend hundreds of hours in the endgame and less than a hundred hours in the leveling process. So from the economic point of view - yes, the endgame has to be more endgaging because players will spend there the majority of their time. In other words - you want to keep the players in the game once they reach the max level

Yes, there are players who like to level again and again and again and again. But they're certainly not majority otherwise the leveling experience would have been better

Also notice how you write that you would solo something. In an RPG game you want to solo the shit. This is IMO the biggest issue MMORPG are facing. In what RPG game you would scratch the party and solo the shit? Let's check some the biggest RPG games:
ME - party, KOTOR - party, Baldur's Gate - party

And now let's add that you're playing a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER. WTF? If you want to solo and experience great leveling MMORPG is the worst RPG you can play. Sure, it is an issue if you're a big Star Wars or Warcraft fan(e.g.). But that's how it is.

Edit>
Most people simply don't care about the journey, they care about the target of the journey

All your biggest RPG games are made by the same studio and the youngest of them is 13 years old. Most open world series like TES or Gothic actually aren't party based.
I talk about soloing stuff because soloing dungeons is the only way to make them challenging in TOR before endgame btw. I don't hate party play and engaged in it on occasion while playing MMOs. Party play would just make TOR leveling even more lacking in challenge than it already is.

If leveling is just a drag why not scratch it entirely or open up a way to skip through it in short order? In GW factions f.e. you'd hit max level after ~5 hours and the rest of the game was decently challenging. If leveling is supposed to be a snoozy drag why implement it in the first place? Or why not flatten it in a way that allows players to tackle lategame content before hitting max level? Why not turn it into a dungeon raid game?

The answer is simple, because there are different player types playing the game. There are explorers who play it to experience the large world, who aren't that interested in dungeons/raids. There are people who play it for the social experience. There are people who have seen dozen of MMOs and play it mainly for the lategame challenge to play their builds in content that fights back. Boosters are mainly for the last group of people but honestly there's no reason to monetize these instead of giving them a free way to skip the leveling they don't enjoy or implement challenging party content to tackle while leveling.

It's lazy design and just because every MMO sucks at this because almost every MMO tries to copy WoW it's become standard and somehow accepted. And they monetize lazy design.
low gravity, yes-yes!
Blitzkrieg0
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States13132 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-16 17:00:32
May 16 2021 16:58 GMT
#957
On May 17 2021 00:23 Manit0u wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 16 2021 19:23 deacon.frost wrote:
On May 16 2021 06:18 Manit0u wrote:
Heh, for me the best part of any MMO is the leveling process. Most end game stuff is boring as hell for me (like doing dungeons over and over again).

Yeah, but most players see it the other way around.


Are you sure? AFAIK actually very low % of the playerbase usually engages in super end game stuff with scheduled raiding, pushing for the rankings, organized PvP etc.


You have to define "super end game" for that to make any sense though. Less than 10% of players are full clearing mythic raids and often lower than 5% from a world of warcraft perspective. If you check heroic clear rates you'll see above 50% which is the majority you're looking for and even that isn't accounting for LFR players.
I'll always be your shadow and veil your eyes from states of ain soph aur.
Sbrubbles
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil5776 Posts
May 16 2021 19:32 GMT
#958
On May 17 2021 01:58 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 17 2021 00:23 Manit0u wrote:
On May 16 2021 19:23 deacon.frost wrote:
On May 16 2021 06:18 Manit0u wrote:
Heh, for me the best part of any MMO is the leveling process. Most end game stuff is boring as hell for me (like doing dungeons over and over again).

Yeah, but most players see it the other way around.


Are you sure? AFAIK actually very low % of the playerbase usually engages in super end game stuff with scheduled raiding, pushing for the rankings, organized PvP etc.


You have to define "super end game" for that to make any sense though. Less than 10% of players are full clearing mythic raids and often lower than 5% from a world of warcraft perspective. If you check heroic clear rates you'll see above 50% which is the majority you're looking for and even that isn't accounting for LFR players.


GW2 is the only MMO I engage with, and there it's not "super end game" stuff that matters, just regular "end game" stuff (WvW, fractals, new story content), which all pretty much require max level. GW2 has its "super end game" in the form of raids, but most people don't engage with them.

The leveling process is GW2 is great fun tbh, but it's just not something I'm interested in dealing with more than once or twice, though thankfully if you engage in WvW (large, week-long PvP match) long enough you accumulate a large ammount of level-up tomes, so you can pretty much skip it.
Bora Pain minha porra!
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17257 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-16 19:53:01
May 16 2021 19:51 GMT
#959
I think the MMO to date that did it the best IMO was the original Guild Wars. Max level was 20 so reachable relatively fast (might take you a few days to a week in Prophecies as it was the slowest one), you could straight up buy weapons and armours with the best stats from the vendors as there were max stats for everything that were not changed in nearly 20 years (level cap also hasn't increased). Still, there was plenty of stuff to do in the game and "end game" consisted of farming for prestige armours and weapons (same stats, just better looks), finishing quests, doing achievements for titles and obviously PvP. Now, if you were only interested in the PvP you could just opt to create a PvP-only char during character creation. You got max lvl char and access to all the weapons and armours but you could not participate in any of the OW content with it, ever.

Now, big part of builds and character development in GW was finding all the skills (had to capture them from mobs, buy from special vendors etc.) and PvP characters got access to all the skills and weapon mods unlocked by RP chars (global account unlocks) or they could unlock them by doing PvP and gathering special currency that let you buy them on that char (and unlock them for RP chars too).

As you can see, you don't need constant power creep and gazillion systems to keep people entertained (GW doesn't even have crafting) for years. I really admire the design and consistency there and even after all those years keep coming back and get entertained even in the tutorial areas.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-16 20:13:20
May 16 2021 20:09 GMT
#960
I liked GW1 but it didn't have open world pvp (no open world even in the sense that it's all instanced and limited to party) so I didn't really stick around for long. Or was there an open world at max level? Can't remember that. I think i would have enjoyed DAOC.
Prev 1 46 47 48 49 50 77 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Sparkling Tuna Cup
10:00
Weekly #99
CranKy Ducklings112
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Harstem 344
Nina 187
StarCraft: Brood War
Horang2 4568
Bisu 1966
Flash 1086
Jaedong 588
Mini 516
Soma 381
EffOrt 368
Stork 301
Zeus 294
Leta 262
[ Show more ]
Larva 190
Hyun 185
ggaemo 155
Killer 139
ToSsGirL 105
Soulkey 97
Mind 89
PianO 84
Dewaltoss 71
yabsab 64
Free 55
Aegong 53
Sharp 52
ZerO 48
Backho 43
soO 38
Rush 35
sSak 25
Shinee 24
Snow 22
sorry 22
Movie 21
Sacsri 20
scan(afreeca) 18
Noble 17
Bale 9
JulyZerg 8
ivOry 6
Icarus 5
Dota 2
XaKoH 419
BananaSlamJamma345
XcaliburYe281
Fuzer 156
League of Legends
JimRising 341
Counter-Strike
olofmeister2084
x6flipin632
oskar204
Other Games
singsing1425
Happy295
DeMusliM187
SortOf149
Lowko92
ZerO(Twitch)14
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta34
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota292
League of Legends
• Stunt837
Upcoming Events
WardiTV European League
4h 58m
PiGosaur Monday
12h 58m
OSC
1d 1h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 4h
The PondCast
1d 22h
Online Event
2 days
Korean StarCraft League
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
Online Event
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
FEL Cracow 2025
Underdog Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
CC Div. A S7
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

BSL 21 Qualifiers
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.