EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 972
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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Ryzel
United States529 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15686 Posts
On December 06 2018 00:08 Ryzel wrote: I hope Flynn and his family are guarded heavier than Fort Knox (figure of speech), because there are some very powerful groups that will want to discourage anyone else doing what Flynn has done. Yeah it's particularly tense because I am assuming that everything Mueller says Friday makes this a lot more official and a lot harder to fight from a societal point of view. So much of the ammo against the investigation is built by uncertainty and lack of public evidence. Once that goes away, it is going to be really difficult to protect Trump and whoever conspired with Trump. It gets a lot harder for fox to say nothing is happening when Flynn and Cohen evidence is presented. And I still think Manafort will eventually flip. Probably tomorrow. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15686 Posts
On December 06 2018 01:18 Plansix wrote: Manafort is fucked. He lied to the investigation team, so he is worthless as a witness. They are going to throw the book at him because he has no value to the investigation. I think it is very likely that Manafort has proof he could provide to help the FBI in a variety of ways. Manafort isn't trustworthy, but that doesn't mean he is useless. If he provided air-tight evidence, he is suddenly useful. That being said, I imagine Cohen and Flynn together are able to provide similar information that would eventually lead Mueller to the same places. I wonder what sort of information only Manafort would have. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On December 06 2018 01:38 Mohdoo wrote: I think it is very likely that Manafort has proof he could provide to help the FBI in a variety of ways. Manafort isn't trustworthy, but that doesn't mean he is useless. If he provided air-tight evidence, he is suddenly useful. That being said, I imagine Cohen and Flynn together are able to provide similar information that would eventually lead Mueller to the same places. I wonder what sort of information only Manafort would have. Right. Remember that they probably only knew Manafort lied to them in the first place because they were also getting information from other sources. If he had any info unique to himself, they'd probably find it, but he proved to be an unreliable witness, who wouldn't so much as corroborate what they already found elsewhere. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7888 Posts
On December 06 2018 01:18 Plansix wrote: Manafort is fucked. He lied to the investigation team, so he is worthless as a witness. They are going to throw the book at him because he has no value to the investigation. What kind of sentence is he gonna get iuo? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 06 2018 01:38 Mohdoo wrote: I think it is very likely that Manafort has proof he could provide to help the FBI in a variety of ways. Manafort isn't trustworthy, but that doesn't mean he is useless. If he provided air-tight evidence, he is suddenly useful. That being said, I imagine Cohen and Flynn together are able to provide similar information that would eventually lead Mueller to the same places. I wonder what sort of information only Manafort would have. Trustworthiness is critical to being a witness. Any information Manafort provides can’t be used at trial because the Defendant’s counsel will be able to attack it by saying Manafort is a liar, which is fact. I know it is sort of hard for folks outside the legal field to understand, but trust and honesty is everything in to the court and law. People make fun of attorneys for being dishonest, but the truth is that they cannot openly and intentionally lie in that profession. And by extension, they cannot use liars to base their case on. Someone like Manafort is a giant liability for any investigation team that they wouldn’t want anywhere near their case, because they cannot withhold things from the other side when they finally bring charges. They have to put it all on the table, so they don't want use anything Manafort would provide. On December 06 2018 01:51 Biff The Understudy wrote: What kind of sentence is he gonna get iuo? It is very likely he will die in prison. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21667 Posts
On December 06 2018 01:38 Mohdoo wrote: Mueller burned Manafort as a witness when he told the judge he lies to investigators and voided the plea deal. I think it is very likely that Manafort has proof he could provide to help the FBI in a variety of ways. Manafort isn't trustworthy, but that doesn't mean he is useless. If he provided air-tight evidence, he is suddenly useful. That being said, I imagine Cohen and Flynn together are able to provide similar information that would eventually lead Mueller to the same places. I wonder what sort of information only Manafort would have. Which also shows that Manafort doesn't have anything truly vital he is willing to give up or Mueller wouldn't have thrown him back out. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15686 Posts
On December 06 2018 01:54 Plansix wrote: Trustworthiness is critical to being a witness. Any information Manafort provides can’t be used at trial because the Defendant’s counsel will be able to attack it by saying Manafort is a liar, which is fact. I know it is sort of hard for folks outside the legal field to understand, but trust and honesty is everything in to the court and law. People make fun of attorneys for being dishonest, but the truth is that they cannot openly and intentionally lie in that profession. And by extension, they cannot use liars to base their case on. Someone like Manafort is a giant liability for any investigation team that they wouldn’t want anywhere near their case, because they cannot withhold things from the other side when they finally bring charges. They have to put it all on the table, so they don't want use anything Manafort would provide. It is very likely he will die in prison. Gotcha, makes sense to me. Sounds to me like a pardon is the only way Manafort doesn't die in prison. But I imagine there are so many state charges that it is certain anyway. I am struggling to feel bad for him. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7888 Posts
On December 06 2018 01:54 Plansix wrote: Trustworthiness is critical to being a witness. Any information Manafort provides can’t be used at trial because the Defendant’s counsel will be able to attack it by saying Manafort is a liar, which is fact. I know it is sort of hard for folks outside the legal field to understand, but trust and honesty is everything in to the court and law. People make fun of attorneys for being dishonest, but the truth is that they cannot openly and intentionally lie in that profession. And by extension, they cannot use liars to base their case on. Someone like Manafort is a giant liability for any investigation team that they wouldn’t want anywhere near their case, because they cannot withhold things from the other side when they finally bring charges. They have to put it all on the table, so they don't want use anything Manafort would provide. It is very likely he will die in prison. Jesus, that is brutal. Not gonna cry on his fate, but US justice system is so bloody harsh. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 06 2018 02:16 Mohdoo wrote: Gotcha, makes sense to me. Sounds to me like a pardon is the only way Manafort doesn't die in prison. But I imagine there are so many state charges that it is certain anyway. I am struggling to feel bad for him. It is a common misconception about attorneys and the legal profession, mostly caused by TV shows and people disliking the profession. I’ve dealt with a lot of pro se defendants in eviction cases where I have had to basically tell them “We are a law firm, we can’t straight up lie to you.” when telling them really basic stuff, like the date of the hearing or whatever. Not because I give a shit, but because I want to be abundantly clear we are operating in good faith with them. Some people think that lying is part of the profession and no one is held accountable for doing it, when the complete opposite. The pardon thing is more likely now because Manafort isn’t a witness in the investigation, so there is no risk of an obstruction charge. However, I don’t think it will happen any time soon. That pardon will be a low key drop of the mic when Trump checks out of office, whenever that is. On December 06 2018 02:25 Biff The Understudy wrote: Jesus, that is brutal. Not gonna cry on his fate, but US justice system is so bloody harsh. The dude isn't young, he committed a lot of crimes and was given 1000 chances to avoid them. Trump gives this impression that there are no consequences for anything, but that just isn't true. A lot of folks that are around him are going to find that out, just like Nixon's people did. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21667 Posts
On December 06 2018 02:25 Biff The Understudy wrote: Not sure you can blame this on the US. Doing the same stuff in another country could well have the same effect. You just don't often find people this dirty getting caught, and if they are they tend to take the plea deal and then not lie to investigators.Jesus, that is brutal. Not gonna cry on his fate, but US justice system is so bloody harsh. Manafort could have walked away with almost nothing like Flynn. He chose this. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
From 2008, but still relevant today: https://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/19/washington/19fbi.html So depleted are the ranks of the F.B.I.’s white-collar investigators that executives in the private sector say they have had difficulty attracting the bureau’s attention in cases involving possible frauds of millions of dollars. Since 2004, F.B.I. officials have warned that mortgage fraud posed a looming threat, and the bureau has repeatedly asked the Bush administration for more money to replenish the ranks of agents handling nonterrorism investigations, according to records and interviews. But each year, the requests have been denied, with no new agents approved for financial crimes, as policy makers focused on counterterrorism. According to previously undisclosed internal F.B.I. data, the cutbacks have been particularly severe in staffing for investigations into white-collar crimes like mortgage fraud, with a loss of 625 agents, or 36 percent of its 2001 levels. Over all, the number of criminal cases that the F.B.I. has brought to federal prosecutors — including a wide range of crimes like drug trafficking and violent crime — dropped 26 percent in the last seven years, going from 11,029 cases to 8,187, Justice Department data showed. To be completely crass about it, 9/11 and the war on terror has been a huge boon to white collar criminals and large companies that want to commit crimes, including banks like Wells Fargo. And I will beat this drum until it changes, because these assholes cause more systemic harm than terrorism. | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
Now Guliani is raging and saying that Twitter fucked with his message. With somebody this stupid leading the legal team, even if Trump wasnt a obvious criminal he might still be found guilty of something. I wonder if Trump is going for an ineffective assistance of counsel defense? If he would have just deleted the tweet this all would have gone away. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On December 06 2018 02:32 Gorsameth wrote: Not sure you can blame this on the US. Doing the same stuff in another country could well have the same effect. You just don't often find people this dirty getting caught, and if they are they tend to take the plea deal and then not lie to investigators. Manafort could have walked away with almost nothing like Flynn. He chose this. The contrast is rather striking isn't it? Manafort lived a life of crime and luxury. And now he gets to finish it in a taxpayer funded cell. I have no sympathy for the guy. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10700 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 06 2018 02:42 On_Slaught wrote: Anyone else following the Guiliani Twitter story? Basically a typo in a tweet created an incidental website link, which Twitter does automatically. Somebody bought the site Giuliani's tweet linked to and made a page which just says something like Trump is a traitor. Now Guliani is raging and saying that Twitter fucked with his message. With somebody this stupid leading the legal team, even if Trump wasnt a obvious criminal he might still be found guilty of something. I wonder if Trump is going for an ineffective assistance of counsel defense? https://twitter.com/RudyGiuliani/status/1070118915139923968 If he would have just deleted the tweet this all would have gone away. I think folks need to consider that he is an idiot, but claiming social media companies are biased against conservatives has been a tactic the GOP has been using for years. Their complaints about social media have never been based in reality, so this one doesn't need to be either. | ||
KwarK
United States42654 Posts
On December 06 2018 02:25 Biff The Understudy wrote: Jesus, that is brutal. Not gonna cry on his fate, but US justice system is so bloody harsh. And then you remember the texts from his daughters talking about how their dad had people killed and that their money has blood on it. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
On December 06 2018 03:12 TheTenthDoc wrote: A fun/terrifying addendum to that story: Rudy advises Trump on cybersecurity, yet doesn't understand that the hyperlink is obviously occurring in this case but not the other because .in is a valid domain name while .either is not. Reminds me of when the dutch representative leading a committee on investigating failed IT projects, complained to Microsoft to stop calling him from their helpdesk. (he was getting the most standard of scam calls) | ||
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