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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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Jankisa
Croatia1119 Posts
Well, them, the Canadian truckers and who knows who as well. In any case, I do think it's a shitty mechanism that has way too much power, it's pretty ironic that those who campaign on "financial freedom" are now using this to go after their enemies but whatchagonna do. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17246 Posts
1 minute in Trump starts talking auto jobs. Trump is taking dead aim at Canada and Mexico. He wants all the auto jobs back in the USA. Lost in all this is the reason the jobs left. Overly militant UAW activity caused a lot of the job losses. UAW contracts in the 1970s–2000s were among the richest in U.S. manufacturing Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) — “Union Wage Premiums Largest in Auto Industry” BLS Monthly Labor Review, multiple issues from the 1970s–1980s → The BLS repeatedly reported that: “Among major manufacturing industries, auto workers represented by the UAW received the highest average earnings and the largest total compensation packages.” Watch popular TV shows from the late 70s and early 80s and many jokes are told about how militant unions were in that era. SCTV and WKRP were two popular shows joking about it. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26236 Posts
US cars suck, there’s not huge demand overseas for them. That’s not really on the people building them. | ||
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Sadist
United States7322 Posts
On December 12 2025 09:55 WombaT wrote: In a prosperous nation, isn’t a sector having good wages a good thing? US cars suck, there’s not huge demand overseas for them. That’s not really on the people building them. Thats not really accurate. UNECE has different regulations than FMVSS. Also good luck driving F150s on roads in Ireland or the UK (have not been to mainland europe so cannot speak to that). Separately, while IMO the UAW is difficult to deal with and I think they are an overall net positive. NAFTA was a huge part of why we ended up where we did. I actually think if Mexico was safer that just about everything wouldve ended up there. Labor is not the largest part of the cost of a car by a long shot but execs are gonna try to shave cost to hit KPIs however they can sadly. Separately Jimmy is full of shit. He always makes statements but doesnt really take a side. BTW ontario has had auto manufacturing way longer that the 1970s Jimmy. Arent you a canadian? Dont you want auto jobs in Ontario? Also the UAW is not the union in Canada.... With assembly line manufacturing as a line worker you cannot really "stand out". Without unions its gonna be a race to the bottom for the line workers. Pretending like if there were no unions in place youd rise up the ranks and earn more because you are a "better" worker is nonsense. | ||
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Hat Trick of Today
178 Posts
They are excessively wide, have surprisingly small trays (especially for quad cab variants), relatively poor handing on urban roads due to size and stock tires often being bad on asphalt (tbh this is kind of user error as most people overbuy their trucks and never use them offroad), trays being high off the ground so weirdly difficult to access gear, and are generally really expensive. The economics don’t really make sense a lot of the time. If you’re in Asia, you could buy a giant F150 to show how much of a big man you are or you could buy a kei truck at like 1/4 the price that has double the tray space AND a tipping tray. Or you could buy a fully loaded out van with all the relevant storage hardware for your relevant trade for a similar price. But as shown by a lot of Cybertruck users bragging about fitting 8 bags of mulch in their truck beds, most of these trucks end up being babied urban drivers that don’t do an ounce of hard work. So practicality (both practically and financially judging by the amount of auto loan delinquencies in 2025) probably isn’t that big of a factor for US consumers who are in the market for this type of vehicle. | ||
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Sadist
United States7322 Posts
Ive been to China and to me their roads in the big cities are way closer to the roads in the US. It makes sense to me why you see larger vehicles in some places than others just by looking at roads and infrastructures. | ||
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Hat Trick of Today
178 Posts
There have been an uptick of US style pick up trucks from the usual suspects but I imagine the BYDs of the world end up being road princesses that will never see a dirt track in their lifetimes. The result of consumer affluence I suppose. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14102 Posts
By demanding higher emission standards you're doing a good thing. I'm not going to hear that its bad. But the car companies saw that the much easier and profitable thing to do is to make more expensive vehicles that are larger to get around having to do any design work to make their cars better. This degraded the cars value in any country that has reasonable infastructure and doesn't tolerate supermassive cars that are designed to kill kids. Having grills that are higher than the average human being is insane and shouldn't have ever been tolerated. Nobody should want an F-150. Its shit at being a normal persons vehicle and is shit at being a work vehicle. Anyone with a shred of knowedge about work sites knows that no one is going to fuck around with a substandard road situation. the road builder is the first guy to any new project and will make sure everyone can get to and out of the site in any weather. there is no enviorment where a truck is going to be needed where a semi or a much heavier truck is going to be wanted more. The only thing it satisfies is people who need to compensate about misplaced manhood and don't understand why minivans are just more utility for what they actually use a vehicle for. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17246 Posts
On December 12 2025 09:55 WombaT wrote: In a prosperous nation, isn’t a sector having good wages a good thing? US cars suck, there’s not huge demand overseas for them. That’s not really on the people building them. This is an over simplification. Actually, the lazy militant union members were a negative factor. The Michigan jobs went only a couple hundred kilometers down the 401. CAW built far more reliable cars by workers in a more reasonable union. Buzz Hargrove and Bob White were great union leaders. They got top wages for this workers. They got union members who worked their asses off building more reliable cars. The standard of living in Michigan's northern neighbour soared... Detroit became a crime ridden ghost town. Detroit was decimated. The cities to the east and north in Canada... got great jobs. The mainstream was well aware of how overly militant and lazy American union workers had become. The most popular sitcom of the day in 1980, "WKRP in Cincinnati" had an episode where a guy robbing a store with a gun told WKRP's "Bucky Dornster" the radio station engineer to freeze. Bucky's reply? "Go ahead and shoot, but you're going to have to answer to engineer's local 10610 if i don't get my lunch" The guy holding the gun replies "ohh hey sorry man.. go ahead... i don't want any trouble with the teamsters union". That was considered a hilarious joke. This is how over the top American unions had become by 1980. In 1985 the CAW broke away from the UAW and this marked a major inflection point in auto manufacturing in North America. SOURCE: Jeffery Harrod, "Labour and Multinationals in the Automotive Sector" (1988) Harrod found that CAW bargaining created: “a perception of greater labour stability in Canada compared with the strike-prone U.S. environment.” This made Canada appealing to automakers. The UAW was forever going on strike at the slightest provocation. The CAW was far more stable. Canada won.. the USA lost. The CAW was a better union than the UAW. The CAW was more stable.. the UAW was a shitshow. If you guys need sources on Detroit declining in the 1970s and 1980s ... i can supply that ... however , it is a well known and accepted fact. A Union exists on a spectrum just like any other human organization. There are great, good, ok, mediocre, bad , and corrupt Unions. Really bad Unions drive away jobs. Corrupt Unions drive away jobs and rob their members of money they earned. Really good Unions, like the CAW under WHite and Hargrove does good for the workers and the megacorps that employ their workers. I'm just about ready to sing the Canadian National Anthem after this post. | ||
KwarK
United States43545 Posts
Some weird stuff in this latest Trump speech where he finally addresses that many Americans are having trouble making ends meet. He has some suggestions about how Americans can get the economy back on track. First we should look at our household pencil budgets. If we're buying 37 pencils then that's probably an area where we can make cutbacks and buy steel instead. Also dolls. 37 dolls per child is just too many and Americans need to stop after one or two. All of the Biden dementia arguments were so very obviously made in bad faith in the face of whatever the fuck this is. Biden was 77 when elected. "We think the President has dementia" "Yes, but he has a very strong and experienced team running the day to day" "Okay but he still shouldn't be president, if they're so good at running the country then surely they should be president" "Fair, we'll switch the candidate to them" "We're going to vote for this 79 year old man with very obvious dementia instead" "Will he at least have a strong and experienced team running the day to day?" "lolno" | ||
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dyhb
United States103 Posts
On December 12 2025 23:09 Sermokala wrote: Isn’t this a bit like telling gamers they don’t need the fastest rig with the best graphics card and large, brilliant monitor, and expecting them to just go along with it? They don’t actually need it, it’s just a luxury item, and it’s only predatory computer manufacturers that make more expensive products.A lot of the issue with modern us car design is the car companies' self-sabotaging their future to get around laws and satisfy short term shareholder value. By demanding higher emission standards you're doing a good thing. I'm not going to hear that its bad. But the car companies saw that the much easier and profitable thing to do is to make more expensive vehicles that are larger to get around having to do any design work to make their cars better. This degraded the cars value in any country that has reasonable infastructure and doesn't tolerate supermassive cars that are designed to kill kids. Having grills that are higher than the average human being is insane and shouldn't have ever been tolerated. Nobody should want an F-150. Its shit at being a normal persons vehicle and is shit at being a work vehicle. Anyone with a shred of knowedge about work sites knows that no one is going to fuck around with a substandard road situation. the road builder is the first guy to any new project and will make sure everyone can get to and out of the site in any weather. there is no enviorment where a truck is going to be needed where a semi or a much heavier truck is going to be wanted more. The only thing it satisfies is people who need to compensate about misplaced manhood and don't understand why minivans are just more utility for what they actually use a vehicle for. I’d expect the same response in that case. To go one step further, if some standards eliminated them, I’d expect them to seek workarounds in classification to still obtain the product they want. CAFE standards eliminated many smaller lower-emitting trucks and drove manufacturers into bigger alternatives. This is dealing with perverse incentives derived from market-distorting laws. | ||
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LightSpectra
United States2074 Posts
On December 12 2025 23:09 Sermokala wrote: The only thing it satisfies is people who need to compensate about misplaced manhood and don't understand why minivans are just more utility for what they actually use a vehicle for. You ever notice these folks' Facebook profile pictures are always in the drivers' seat of those same penile compensation SUVs? Sigmund Freud would've strangled innocents to death to use even one of these folks as a case study. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22083 Posts
On December 13 2025 04:18 dyhb wrote: Yes, the US automobile industry spend decades and a fortune to convince the American public that they needed to buy big pickup trucks (because they have different safety and emission standards) and in doing so competed themselves out of the rest of the world, Isn’t this a bit like telling gamers they don’t need the fastest rig with the best graphics card and large, brilliant monitor, and expecting them to just go along with it? They don’t actually need it, it’s just a luxury item, and it’s only predatory computer manufacturers that make more expensive products. I’d expect the same response in that case. To go one step further, if some standards eliminated them, I’d expect them to seek workarounds in classification to still obtain the product they want. CAFE standards eliminated many smaller lower-emitting trucks and drove manufacturers into bigger alternatives. This is dealing with perverse incentives derived from market-distorting laws. Their demise is self inflicted and deserved. ps. If you ever find yourself with a spare 30 minutes you should watch Its obviously biased but it does a good job setting out why Americans came to drive giant pickups they don't need, designed to kill other people on the road. | ||
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Fleetfeet
Canada2629 Posts
On December 13 2025 04:18 dyhb wrote: Isn’t this a bit like telling gamers they don’t need the fastest rig with the best graphics card and large, brilliant monitor, and expecting them to just go along with it? They don’t actually need it, it’s just a luxury item, and it’s only predatory computer manufacturers that make more expensive products. I’d expect the same response in that case. To go one step further, if some standards eliminated them, I’d expect them to seek workarounds in classification to still obtain the product they want. CAFE standards eliminated many smaller lower-emitting trucks and drove manufacturers into bigger alternatives. This is dealing with perverse incentives derived from market-distorting laws. I think where that comparison falls apart is that I could see how my current gaming rig won't perform terribly well running ARC raiders, and where upgrades would help me there and futureproof against other software I want to run. On the other hand, I can dream about how cool offroading with my new truck would be, but even the people I know that do have offroading vehicles and go offroading only do it a couple times a year, and those people aren't eyeballing f-150s for the job. To me it's more like self-run business people who want a powerful laptop for work and end up with an alienware rig or something. Not at all the tool for the job, ends up a lot more showy than they actually need and most of the people who see it aren't like "damn cool", they're like "Hah that's ridiculous why does he have a gaming rig for work" | ||
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dyhb
United States103 Posts
On December 13 2025 05:20 Fleetfeet wrote: Basically, this. My new computer game with insane minimum requirements isn’t a need, much like I don’t need a big truck, but personally do not desire one. I don’t want to subject my recreational purchases to be born from a sinister plot by advertisers from the video game industry and computer parts manufacturers that I need more than 30fps and 1080p. They may be guilty as sin! My own psychology might be keeping up with my gaming friends that run it at 4K and ultra graphics and 60+ fps! So I want to keep an open mind to truck enthusiasts that would level the same exact charge of need and saving the environment/wasteful spending to my version of an expensive purchase that isn’t based from need. I don’t buy based on need. I have extremely price-conscious decisions (I can’t afford this game and the rig to run it) and less-so ones (I want to play this game and have the money to upgrade my pc to run it). I don’t want to be that snob that says your purchase wasn’t based on need, but advertising, while all the time I’m a fucking hypocrite masquerading as something else.I think where that comparison falls apart is that I could see how my current gaming rig won't perform terribly well running ARC raiders, and where upgrades would help me there and futureproof against other software I want to run. On the other hand, I can dream about how cool offroading with my new truck would be, but even the people I know that do have offroading vehicles and go offroading only do it a couple times a year, and those people aren't eyeballing f-150s for the job. To me it's more like self-run business people who want a powerful laptop for work and end up with an alienware rig or something. Not at all the tool for the job, ends up a lot more showy than they actually need and most of the people who see it aren't like "damn cool", they're like "Hah that's ridiculous why does he have a gaming rig for work" | ||
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decafchicken
United States20140 Posts
On December 13 2025 04:53 Gorsameth wrote: Yes, the US automobile industry spend decades and a fortune to convince the American public that they needed to buy big pickup trucks (because they have different safety and emission standards) and in doing so competed themselves out of the rest of the world, Their demise is self inflicted and deserved. ps. If you ever find yourself with a spare 30 minutes you should watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo Its obviously biased but it does a good job setting out why Americans came to drive giant pickups they don't need, designed to kill other people on the road. Ever since i got into cycling I realize how destructive and insane car culture is in America. It's truly mind boggling and negatively impacts so many livability factors for americans | ||
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Simberto
Germany11739 Posts
On December 13 2025 07:06 decafchicken wrote: Ever since i got into cycling I realize how destructive and insane car culture is in America. It's truly mind boggling and negatively impacts so many livability factors for americans Cycling is amazing. I have been cycling to work for about a year now, and the reliability is awesome. I don't have to worry about traffic, or problems with the bus, or anything like that. I just get on my bike, and am at work in 20-25 minutes reliably. And as a teacher, reliability is key, because i can't really ever just be later by 15 minutes or so, so with my electric scooter i always had to plan for the worst case traffic. Also, it is healthy and keeps my belly from becoming more and more fat. | ||
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Hat Trick of Today
178 Posts
Said prebuilt vendor can get away with the this upsell because they sent decades conditioning you to believe 128gb is better than 32gb and that 128gb will help you make money when you convert said desktop into a server in a decade’s time. Neither of these things are true and the end result is a product that is simultaneously not fit for purpose for 90% of consumers and excessively expensive for no reason. It isn’t just more expensive, the decision is often detrimental in terms of performance and made from a position of relative affluence and not practicality. Which is relevant to the original topic of why US car designs aren’t widely adopted worldwide. There’s a few countries like Thailand that have absolutely adopted US truck designs but there are major practical reasons as the higher clearance helps during the typhoon season. But for the US? Abandoning practically like this has major implications on everything as US urban environments are forced to developed in a way to accommodate for these impracticalities. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26236 Posts
On December 13 2025 09:15 Hat Trick of Today wrote: Stuff like the F150 are more akin to a prebuilt vendor like Dell and HP upselling you an expensive desktop with intentionally substandard configurations like 128gb of slow DDR5 memory with the wrong XMP settings installed rather than 32gb of higher performance memory that is properly configured. Said prebuilt vendor can get away with the this upsell because they sent decades conditioning you to believe 128gb is better than 32gb and that 128gb will help you make money when you convert said desktop into a server in a decade’s time. Neither of these things are true and the end result is a product that is simultaneously not fit for purpose for 90% of consumers and excessively expensive for no reason. It isn’t just more expensive, the decision is often detrimental in terms of performance and made from a position of relative affluence and not practicality. Which is relevant to the original topic of why US car designs aren’t widely adopted worldwide. There’s a few countries like Thailand that have absolutely adopted US truck designs but there are major practical reasons as the higher clearance helps during the typhoon season. But for the US? Abandoning practically like this has major implications on everything as US urban environments are forced to developed in a way to accommodate for these impracticalities. It’s long confuddled me, but hey. Ideally you have both, but with vehicles folks want something practical, or alternatively impractical but cool. American megatrucks aren’t really either? Although yeah tastes will vary. At this stage just buy a monster truck, they’re not all that much bigger at this point, and they’re ridiculous vehicles but at least they’re cool in a preposterous testosterone overdose kind of way. | ||
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decafchicken
United States20140 Posts
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