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On September 27 2025 15:37 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2025 14:41 EnDeR_ wrote:On September 27 2025 11:19 Introvert wrote:On September 27 2025 00:23 EnDeR_ wrote:On September 26 2025 22:19 Introvert wrote:On September 26 2025 16:19 EnDeR_ wrote:On September 26 2025 12:21 Introvert wrote:
I would say it's more a hope born of necessity. For reasons both ideological and cultural it can be harder for people on the left to countenance people who disagree with them very strongly but that's part of why I think it will take some great national struggle or disaster to return our government to better functioning. Things will have to be placed aside, on both left and right.
Could you explain a bit more about what you mean by "it's harder for people on the left to countenance people that disagree with them very strongly"? Anecdotally, the two times I've had a conversation with someone heavily pro-Trump, even mild disagreement was taken as a personal offense that could not be countenanced. Neither time was a pleasant conversation. Anecdotically, also, the couple times I've had a strong disagreement with someone who identifies as 'on the left', it was fairly amicable and we reached a point where we could understand where each of us was coming from. If you want to know, a specific example was about trans people on TV and how this was going to mess up his kids, another was about DEI implementation in the workplace. Sent hit the nail on the head. In less rancourous times there was a saying, iirc penned by commentator Charles Krauthammer that "Conservatives think liberals are wrong, liberals think Conservatives are evil." I think this is mostly true (keep on mind we are saying "liberal" in the American sense of the word). For the criticism that the right is very "moralistic" i think surely that criticism (if you would even call it that) applies to the left at least as much. There is also the cultural dimension as well. American popular culture and academia has become so insular and increasingly left-wing that it's far easier, from what i can tell, for someone on the left to hear almost nothing from someone they disagree with than the opposite. It’s surely true on campus, and I and many others could attest to that personally. I'm sure it's not quite so overwhelming in a more conservative state, but any conservative who has ever attended college or seen a single thing a famous actor has said or read a news story in a legacy newspaper has had to read and interact with people they disagree with. Some Trumpers are incredibly annoying though, yes. I don't disagree that this may have been the case back in the day. But is it true now? I don't think right-wingers are moralistic; that kind of went when Trump became the standard-bearer. There was a clear shift from "holier than thou, you must uphold family values or you will go to hell" to "owning the libs", I don't think this is really arguable to be honest. In fact, it is becoming more and more common for right-wing people to describe anything left of center as their "enemies". You're painting conservatives as some kind of responsible parent with an unruly leftwing teenager, and I just don't think that image holds in modern America. Somewhat related to what you saying there is an interesting thing happening in the Republican party that it is getting less obviously religious. I think for a long time Democrats yearned for such a day,, now I wonder if they are reconsidering lol. That aside, I think it's hard to argue against the fact that discourse has gotten worse. For the moment I will abstain from guessing *why* but I do think you are more or less correct. I didn't mean my comments in a paternalistic sense, but I think at least that the type of politicians conservatives used to vote for were less combative. Again, for the sake of discussion I am agnostic as to why this is true. But I would add that this more aggressive tone doesn't undermine what I said. It's true, if you are left-wing nudist in Berkeley, California who only eats locally grown non-GMO vegetables, there's also a chance your social circle is more "diverse" than an 85% white evangelical town in Nowhereville, Arkansas. But if you or your kids in that small town went to college almost anywhere, if they ever turned on the news, if they ever saw a movie, if they ever read anything at all about the nation they lived in, they'd have a deeper understanding of people on the other side than the free-range Bay Area man. Because that left-wing man in one of the hearts of blue America *probably* knows far less about the tens of millions of citizens who disagree with him than the college educated evangelical Christian. Sure, the former may know lots of people, but he has a huge, huge blind spot. And it would be entirely possible to go on living that way unless he consciously chose to learn something more. It's not that people on the right can't be a-holes or close-minded. I think these are all traits that come with human.exe, no software update required. Maybe that's my conservatism talking. So I think both sides are growing in their obvious and stated contempt for the other, but combined with what I said and Sent. so succinctly summarized before, I think (my opinion) that it's harder for people on the left to really know what people who disagree with them think. I don't mean people who come from different cultures but all moved the same place and share a kind of mixed cultural milieu, but people who honest to God disagree about some very fundamental things. My one tiny data point I will give here is that every survey says that people on the left are more willing to cut off family members and friends over politics. At first blush that is not the most open-minded behavior lol Social media has helped silo people with their media consumption, so maybe both sides are becoming alike, but i do think that for a long time the right had an idea, imperfectly followed, as principles often are, that accepting that people could disagree with you over VALUES was ok. Ok, i also think is true that a Mile Pence type politician is closer to the archetype conservatives historically voted for. It is also inarguable that that is simply not the direction of travel now. You're right about leftwing people not being particularly open minded. I saw those same stats. You don't have to go farther than this thread, GH could never picture himself working with someone that doesn't pass his purity tests. We are in a big mess and it's not getting better. But you are connecting those two dots by saying "this can only mean that leftwing people are ignorant of what people that disagree with them think, otherwise they'd be more open minded". You could make the reverse argument "this is because leftwing people know exactly what the people they disagree with think and can't see themselves engaging with that kind of disregard for human rights". I think the latter is closer to the truth than the former. ah, I see what you are saying, I think. Is that not disagreeing more with the potential ideological underpinnings previously mentioned? I guess I would return to the (admittedly extreme) example I gave. From what I can tell, it's not that hard, just by accident of birth, to never come across very conservative viewpoints articulated well and and defended systematically. There's no guarantee of it in high school, non in college, almost none in regular print media. In popular media you might have some right-of-center ideas appear and presented perhaps sympathetically (though also often unsympathetically). If those ideas appear there one often has to wonder if it was an accident, and it's often just background or subtext. Now of course it's true that none of these things make those views right or wrong. But I don't think I'm getting too far ahead of myself in saying it's more difficult for someone on the right to avoid opinions and arguments they don't want to hear then someone on the left. Making all allowance for individual circumstances of course.
I do think that conservatives are more likely to work with people they disagree with. This can be both a boon and a curse. You couldn't explain otherwise the extreme ideology takeover that has happened over the conservative party.
The feeling I'm getting is that you're the kind of conservative that'd much rather vote for a Mike Pence than a Charlie Kirk. But you'd also not be that fussed if a Charlie Kirk got elected and started implementing an extreme agenda. And I think that reflects the first point. You're more okay with differing viewpoints as long as it's moving in the direction you want.
Leftleaning folks have a harder time doing that, as they're generally much more aligned with what you'd normally call their 'principles', which are normally centered on granting equal human rights to all. This is also why it's hard to find well-articulated conservative viewpoints. It's just harder to argue that some groups should be more privileged than others.
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On September 27 2025 15:24 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2025 15:06 Acrofales wrote:On September 27 2025 14:45 oBlade wrote:On September 27 2025 05:19 Gorsameth wrote:On September 27 2025 04:44 LightSpectra wrote:
I can't help but imagine the mood of a room full of decorated generals and admirals being told what it means to be 'a true warrior' by an alcoholic National Guard reservist. Barely disguised complete and utter contempt I imagine. Most general and flag officers should be professionals, free of such tumblr contempt for authority. Unfortunately there is an element of politics once you get to be a general - or rather even when you get to be a general. For the most part they will have basic respect for civilian control of the military and the chain of command, but there's also too many generals in general, so cutting out the ones who think like you do would be great. You're getting really good at twisting the meaning. While it's true that the military structure placed under the authority of a civilian is something they have balked at since governments started doing it, and with plenty of coups throughout history and around the world as a result, this was, in particular, a flippant remark about Hegseth. Usually the civilian in charge of the military is at least somewhat competent. Hegseth has proven to be anything but. Contempt is singularly understandable. This is the US military and these are general and flag officers confirmed by Congress, not some McDonalds where your boss made you clean up or cut your hours. If your boss wants to talk to you about something, you give it your full attention and be open how you can make it happen and what you can contribute and how you can inform him. None of that is happening with an attitude of seething resentment that you only have to wait 3.5 years until it's back to autopilot and you're in charge of yourself because you know best and how dare the Secretary of Defense want to have a meeting when I'm so busy and there are still Chinese balloons to let fly over the entire length of the US. The US military doesn't balk at civilian control of itself. Anyone who goes down that road should say goodbye to their career and potentially freedom. For example a #NotMyPresident Hillary supporter who thought the 2016 election was illegitimate can never be trusted with a command. Thankfully there's not an actual case of this we're talking about, it's just forum posters projecting what they hope general and flag officers should do and feel to stick it to their boss and defending imaginary generals/admirals for their first amendment right to do/feel things there's no report they have done/felt.
What about a Jan 6 insurrectionist? Would they be fit for military command?
I find it hilarious and sad that you bring up a hypothetical case of not accepting the presidential elections as opposed to the very real one that happened more recently.
But that is all aside from the very real security concerns of (1) forcing your deployed commanders to leave their command and fly thousands of miles to attend a meeting ,and (2) gathering all your military command together in a single location so you can give them a speech. Making all of that happen without problems will be time consuming and expensive.
If i were a DOGE enthusiast as you so clearly were, I would be up in arms about an unprecedented meeting like this. A meeting that, according to what info anybody has, could've been an email.
And if this were called by even a halfway competent defense secretary like Jim Mattis, we'd expect it to be a necessary thing. But it's Pete Hegseth. So most likely he just wants his Instagram moment.
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On September 27 2025 11:19 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2025 00:23 EnDeR_ wrote:On September 26 2025 22:19 Introvert wrote:On September 26 2025 16:19 EnDeR_ wrote:On September 26 2025 12:21 Introvert wrote:
I would say it's more a hope born of necessity. For reasons both ideological and cultural it can be harder for people on the left to countenance people who disagree with them very strongly but that's part of why I think it will take some great national struggle or disaster to return our government to better functioning. Things will have to be placed aside, on both left and right.
Could you explain a bit more about what you mean by "it's harder for people on the left to countenance people that disagree with them very strongly"? Anecdotally, the two times I've had a conversation with someone heavily pro-Trump, even mild disagreement was taken as a personal offense that could not be countenanced. Neither time was a pleasant conversation. Anecdotically, also, the couple times I've had a strong disagreement with someone who identifies as 'on the left', it was fairly amicable and we reached a point where we could understand where each of us was coming from. If you want to know, a specific example was about trans people on TV and how this was going to mess up his kids, another was about DEI implementation in the workplace. Sent hit the nail on the head. In less rancourous times there was a saying, iirc penned by commentator Charles Krauthammer that "Conservatives think liberals are wrong, liberals think Conservatives are evil." I think this is mostly true (keep on mind we are saying "liberal" in the American sense of the word). For the criticism that the right is very "moralistic" i think surely that criticism (if you would even call it that) applies to the left at least as much. There is also the cultural dimension as well. American popular culture and academia has become so insular and increasingly left-wing that it's far easier, from what i can tell, for someone on the left to hear almost nothing from someone they disagree with than the opposite. It’s surely true on campus, and I and many others could attest to that personally. I'm sure it's not quite so overwhelming in a more conservative state, but any conservative who has ever attended college or seen a single thing a famous actor has said or read a news story in a legacy newspaper has had to read and interact with people they disagree with. Some Trumpers are incredibly annoying though, yes. I don't disagree that this may have been the case back in the day. But is it true now? I don't think right-wingers are moralistic; that kind of went when Trump became the standard-bearer. There was a clear shift from "holier than thou, you must uphold family values or you will go to hell" to "owning the libs", I don't think this is really arguable to be honest. In fact, it is becoming more and more common for right-wing people to describe anything left of center as their "enemies". You're painting conservatives as some kind of responsible parent with an unruly leftwing teenager, and I just don't think that image holds in modern America. Somewhat related to what you saying there is an interesting thing happening in the Republican party that it is getting less obviously religious. I think for a long time Democrats yearned for such a day,, now I wonder if they are reconsidering lol. That aside, I think it's hard to argue against the fact that discourse has gotten worse. For the moment I will abstain from guessing *why* but I do think you are more or less correct. I didn't mean my comments in a paternalistic sense, but I think at least that the type of politicians conservatives used to vote for were less combative. Again, for the sake of discussion I am agnostic as to why this is true. But I would add that this more aggressive tone doesn't undermine what I said. It's true, if you are left-wing nudist in Berkeley, California who only eats locally grown non-GMO vegetables, there's also a chance your social circle is more "diverse" than an 85% white evangelical town in Nowhereville, Arkansas. But if you or your kids in that small town went to college almost anywhere, if they ever turned on the news, if they ever saw a movie, if they ever read anything at all about the nation they lived in, they'd have a deeper understanding of people on the other side than the free-range Bay Area man. Because that left-wing man in one of the hearts of blue America *probably* knows far less about the tens of millions of citizens who disagree with him than the college educated evangelical Christian. Sure, the former may know lots of people, but he has a huge, huge blind spot. And it would be entirely possible to go on living that way unless he consciously chose to learn something more. It's not that people on the right can't be a-holes or close-minded. I think these are all traits that come with human.exe, no software update required. Maybe that's my conservatism talking. So I think both sides are growing in their obvious and stated contempt for the other, but combined with what I said and Sent. so succinctly summarized before, I think (my opinion) that it's harder for people on the left to really know what people who disagree with them think. I don't mean people who come from different cultures but all moved the same place and share a kind of mixed cultural milieu, but people who honest to God disagree about some very fundamental things. My one tiny data point I will give here is that every survey says that people on the left are more willing to cut off family members and friends over politics. At first blush that is not the most open-minded behavior lol Social media has helped silo people with their media consumption, so maybe both sides are becoming alike, but i do think that for a long time the right had an idea, imperfectly followed, as principles often are, that accepting that people could disagree with you over VALUES was ok.
People cutting off their family members over politics isn't less open-minded, unless you somehow have information on why they cut them off.
Trump is in power. Trump is a fascist. If my family supports Trump and shows complete disregard for my well-being, then cutting them off is sad but reasonable, and not closed-minded whatsoever.
Also I wanna see a source for this absurd claim that left-wingers are less exposed to a variety/opposing viewpoints, or to specific viewpoints, and thus effectively less knowledgeable about politics. Seriously now, come on. Prove it.
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On September 27 2025 15:53 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2025 15:37 Introvert wrote:On September 27 2025 14:41 EnDeR_ wrote:On September 27 2025 11:19 Introvert wrote:On September 27 2025 00:23 EnDeR_ wrote:On September 26 2025 22:19 Introvert wrote:On September 26 2025 16:19 EnDeR_ wrote:On September 26 2025 12:21 Introvert wrote:
I would say it's more a hope born of necessity. For reasons both ideological and cultural it can be harder for people on the left to countenance people who disagree with them very strongly but that's part of why I think it will take some great national struggle or disaster to return our government to better functioning. Things will have to be placed aside, on both left and right.
Could you explain a bit more about what you mean by "it's harder for people on the left to countenance people that disagree with them very strongly"? Anecdotally, the two times I've had a conversation with someone heavily pro-Trump, even mild disagreement was taken as a personal offense that could not be countenanced. Neither time was a pleasant conversation. Anecdotically, also, the couple times I've had a strong disagreement with someone who identifies as 'on the left', it was fairly amicable and we reached a point where we could understand where each of us was coming from. If you want to know, a specific example was about trans people on TV and how this was going to mess up his kids, another was about DEI implementation in the workplace. Sent hit the nail on the head. In less rancourous times there was a saying, iirc penned by commentator Charles Krauthammer that "Conservatives think liberals are wrong, liberals think Conservatives are evil." I think this is mostly true (keep on mind we are saying "liberal" in the American sense of the word). For the criticism that the right is very "moralistic" i think surely that criticism (if you would even call it that) applies to the left at least as much. There is also the cultural dimension as well. American popular culture and academia has become so insular and increasingly left-wing that it's far easier, from what i can tell, for someone on the left to hear almost nothing from someone they disagree with than the opposite. It’s surely true on campus, and I and many others could attest to that personally. I'm sure it's not quite so overwhelming in a more conservative state, but any conservative who has ever attended college or seen a single thing a famous actor has said or read a news story in a legacy newspaper has had to read and interact with people they disagree with. Some Trumpers are incredibly annoying though, yes. I don't disagree that this may have been the case back in the day. But is it true now? I don't think right-wingers are moralistic; that kind of went when Trump became the standard-bearer. There was a clear shift from "holier than thou, you must uphold family values or you will go to hell" to "owning the libs", I don't think this is really arguable to be honest. In fact, it is becoming more and more common for right-wing people to describe anything left of center as their "enemies". You're painting conservatives as some kind of responsible parent with an unruly leftwing teenager, and I just don't think that image holds in modern America. Somewhat related to what you saying there is an interesting thing happening in the Republican party that it is getting less obviously religious. I think for a long time Democrats yearned for such a day,, now I wonder if they are reconsidering lol. That aside, I think it's hard to argue against the fact that discourse has gotten worse. For the moment I will abstain from guessing *why* but I do think you are more or less correct. I didn't mean my comments in a paternalistic sense, but I think at least that the type of politicians conservatives used to vote for were less combative. Again, for the sake of discussion I am agnostic as to why this is true. But I would add that this more aggressive tone doesn't undermine what I said. It's true, if you are left-wing nudist in Berkeley, California who only eats locally grown non-GMO vegetables, there's also a chance your social circle is more "diverse" than an 85% white evangelical town in Nowhereville, Arkansas. But if you or your kids in that small town went to college almost anywhere, if they ever turned on the news, if they ever saw a movie, if they ever read anything at all about the nation they lived in, they'd have a deeper understanding of people on the other side than the free-range Bay Area man. Because that left-wing man in one of the hearts of blue America *probably* knows far less about the tens of millions of citizens who disagree with him than the college educated evangelical Christian. Sure, the former may know lots of people, but he has a huge, huge blind spot. And it would be entirely possible to go on living that way unless he consciously chose to learn something more. It's not that people on the right can't be a-holes or close-minded. I think these are all traits that come with human.exe, no software update required. Maybe that's my conservatism talking. So I think both sides are growing in their obvious and stated contempt for the other, but combined with what I said and Sent. so succinctly summarized before, I think (my opinion) that it's harder for people on the left to really know what people who disagree with them think. I don't mean people who come from different cultures but all moved the same place and share a kind of mixed cultural milieu, but people who honest to God disagree about some very fundamental things. My one tiny data point I will give here is that every survey says that people on the left are more willing to cut off family members and friends over politics. At first blush that is not the most open-minded behavior lol Social media has helped silo people with their media consumption, so maybe both sides are becoming alike, but i do think that for a long time the right had an idea, imperfectly followed, as principles often are, that accepting that people could disagree with you over VALUES was ok. Ok, i also think is true that a Mile Pence type politician is closer to the archetype conservatives historically voted for. It is also inarguable that that is simply not the direction of travel now. You're right about leftwing people not being particularly open minded. I saw those same stats. You don't have to go farther than this thread, GH could never picture himself working with someone that doesn't pass his purity tests. We are in a big mess and it's not getting better. But you are connecting those two dots by saying "this can only mean that leftwing people are ignorant of what people that disagree with them think, otherwise they'd be more open minded". You could make the reverse argument "this is because leftwing people know exactly what the people they disagree with think and can't see themselves engaging with that kind of disregard for human rights". I think the latter is closer to the truth than the former. ah, I see what you are saying, I think. Is that not disagreeing more with the potential ideological underpinnings previously mentioned? I guess I would return to the (admittedly extreme) example I gave. From what I can tell, it's not that hard, just by accident of birth, to never come across very conservative viewpoints articulated well and and defended systematically. There's no guarantee of it in high school, non in college, almost none in regular print media. In popular media you might have some right-of-center ideas appear and presented perhaps sympathetically (though also often unsympathetically). If those ideas appear there one often has to wonder if it was an accident, and it's often just background or subtext. Now of course it's true that none of these things make those views right or wrong. But I don't think I'm getting too far ahead of myself in saying it's more difficult for someone on the right to avoid opinions and arguments they don't want to hear then someone on the left. Making all allowance for individual circumstances of course. I do think that conservatives are more likely to work with people they disagree with. This can be both a boon and a curse. You couldn't explain otherwise the extreme ideology takeover that has happened over the conservative party. The feeling I'm getting is that you're the kind of conservative that'd much rather vote for a Mike Pence than a Charlie Kirk. But you'd also not be that fussed if a Charlie Kirk got elected and started implementing an extreme agenda. And I think that reflects the first point. You're more okay with differing viewpoints as long as it's moving in the direction you want. Leftleaning folks have a harder time doing that, as they're generally much more aligned with what you'd normally call their 'principles', which are normally centered on granting equal human rights to all. This is also why it's hard to find well-articulated conservative viewpoints. It's just harder to argue that some groups should be more privileged than others.
Now that first paragraph is fascinating and it's so tempting to follow it further. But I sense we are winding down (or maybe it's just getting late here and I'm mistaken).
I would agree with the broad strokes of what you are saying, though maybe not the particulars. Arguably, part of what makes conservatism is its non-utopian view that inclines people to get the best they can from an imperfect situation. Like all things this can lead to having a little too large of a tent at times. There are certainly those on the left I think who would take a different view of the underlying reasons for the manifested behavior. And I appreciate that your last paragraph is kinda demonstrating the ideological or principled argument, in its own way.
I don't fully accept that framing as you laid it out (certainly not as it leads to your last sentence), but I certainly agree that's how many on the left see it. And I agree that on the part of many well-meaning and thoughtful lefties that's how it would appear.
I guess to sum up my part of this, I would encourage anyone reading this to make more of an attempt to understand, after all, it's not like tens of millions of your fellow citizens will just disappear : )
edit: I will add this, thinking about what you said. I disagree with "This is also why it's hard to find well-articulated conservative viewpoints." Going back to what I said about values, and what you said about principles, I feel there is a tendency to slam to the door shut and to not even take up the argument, even just as an argument, that could be debated. It's often considered wrong to even consider it. It's not like there haven't been serious people conservatives claim as intellectual ancestors. So I don't think agree with this, though the dearth of (open) conservative academics is not good for anyone.
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On September 27 2025 15:24 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2025 15:06 Acrofales wrote:On September 27 2025 14:45 oBlade wrote:On September 27 2025 05:19 Gorsameth wrote:On September 27 2025 04:44 LightSpectra wrote:
I can't help but imagine the mood of a room full of decorated generals and admirals being told what it means to be 'a true warrior' by an alcoholic National Guard reservist. Barely disguised complete and utter contempt I imagine. Most general and flag officers should be professionals, free of such tumblr contempt for authority. Unfortunately there is an element of politics once you get to be a general - or rather even when you get to be a general. For the most part they will have basic respect for civilian control of the military and the chain of command, but there's also too many generals in general, so cutting out the ones who think like you do would be great. You're getting really good at twisting the meaning. While it's true that the military structure placed under the authority of a civilian is something they have balked at since governments started doing it, and with plenty of coups throughout history and around the world as a result, this was, in particular, a flippant remark about Hegseth. Usually the civilian in charge of the military is at least somewhat competent. Hegseth has proven to be anything but. Contempt is singularly understandable. This is the US military and these are general and flag officers confirmed by Congress, not some McDonalds where your boss made you clean up or cut your hours. If your boss wants to talk to you about something, you give it your full attention and be open how you can make it happen and what you can contribute and how you can inform him. None of that is happening with an attitude of seething resentment that you only have to wait 3.5 years until it's back to autopilot and you're in charge of yourself because you know best and how dare the Secretary of Defense want to have a meeting when I'm so busy and there are still Chinese balloons to let fly over the entire length of the US. The US military doesn't balk at civilian control of itself. Anyone who goes down that road should say goodbye to their career and potentially freedom. For example a #NotMyPresident Hillary supporter who thought the 2016 election was illegitimate can never be trusted with a command.Thankfully there's not an actual case of this we're talking about, it's just forum posters projecting what they hope general and flag officers should do and feel to stick it to their boss and defending imaginary generals/admirals for their first amendment right to do/feel things there's no report they have done/felt.
How ironic, then, that the current commander in chief has called various elections illegitimate.
Thank you for agreeing that he can't be trusted.
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On September 27 2025 15:37 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2025 14:41 EnDeR_ wrote:On September 27 2025 11:19 Introvert wrote:On September 27 2025 00:23 EnDeR_ wrote:On September 26 2025 22:19 Introvert wrote:On September 26 2025 16:19 EnDeR_ wrote:On September 26 2025 12:21 Introvert wrote:
I would say it's more a hope born of necessity. For reasons both ideological and cultural it can be harder for people on the left to countenance people who disagree with them very strongly but that's part of why I think it will take some great national struggle or disaster to return our government to better functioning. Things will have to be placed aside, on both left and right.
Could you explain a bit more about what you mean by "it's harder for people on the left to countenance people that disagree with them very strongly"? Anecdotally, the two times I've had a conversation with someone heavily pro-Trump, even mild disagreement was taken as a personal offense that could not be countenanced. Neither time was a pleasant conversation. Anecdotically, also, the couple times I've had a strong disagreement with someone who identifies as 'on the left', it was fairly amicable and we reached a point where we could understand where each of us was coming from. If you want to know, a specific example was about trans people on TV and how this was going to mess up his kids, another was about DEI implementation in the workplace. Sent hit the nail on the head. In less rancourous times there was a saying, iirc penned by commentator Charles Krauthammer that "Conservatives think liberals are wrong, liberals think Conservatives are evil." I think this is mostly true (keep on mind we are saying "liberal" in the American sense of the word). For the criticism that the right is very "moralistic" i think surely that criticism (if you would even call it that) applies to the left at least as much. There is also the cultural dimension as well. American popular culture and academia has become so insular and increasingly left-wing that it's far easier, from what i can tell, for someone on the left to hear almost nothing from someone they disagree with than the opposite. It’s surely true on campus, and I and many others could attest to that personally. I'm sure it's not quite so overwhelming in a more conservative state, but any conservative who has ever attended college or seen a single thing a famous actor has said or read a news story in a legacy newspaper has had to read and interact with people they disagree with. Some Trumpers are incredibly annoying though, yes. I don't disagree that this may have been the case back in the day. But is it true now? I don't think right-wingers are moralistic; that kind of went when Trump became the standard-bearer. There was a clear shift from "holier than thou, you must uphold family values or you will go to hell" to "owning the libs", I don't think this is really arguable to be honest. In fact, it is becoming more and more common for right-wing people to describe anything left of center as their "enemies". You're painting conservatives as some kind of responsible parent with an unruly leftwing teenager, and I just don't think that image holds in modern America. Somewhat related to what you saying there is an interesting thing happening in the Republican party that it is getting less obviously religious. I think for a long time Democrats yearned for such a day,, now I wonder if they are reconsidering lol. That aside, I think it's hard to argue against the fact that discourse has gotten worse. For the moment I will abstain from guessing *why* but I do think you are more or less correct. I didn't mean my comments in a paternalistic sense, but I think at least that the type of politicians conservatives used to vote for were less combative. Again, for the sake of discussion I am agnostic as to why this is true. But I would add that this more aggressive tone doesn't undermine what I said. It's true, if you are left-wing nudist in Berkeley, California who only eats locally grown non-GMO vegetables, there's also a chance your social circle is more "diverse" than an 85% white evangelical town in Nowhereville, Arkansas. But if you or your kids in that small town went to college almost anywhere, if they ever turned on the news, if they ever saw a movie, if they ever read anything at all about the nation they lived in, they'd have a deeper understanding of people on the other side than the free-range Bay Area man. Because that left-wing man in one of the hearts of blue America *probably* knows far less about the tens of millions of citizens who disagree with him than the college educated evangelical Christian. Sure, the former may know lots of people, but he has a huge, huge blind spot. And it would be entirely possible to go on living that way unless he consciously chose to learn something more. It's not that people on the right can't be a-holes or close-minded. I think these are all traits that come with human.exe, no software update required. Maybe that's my conservatism talking. So I think both sides are growing in their obvious and stated contempt for the other, but combined with what I said and Sent. so succinctly summarized before, I think (my opinion) that it's harder for people on the left to really know what people who disagree with them think. I don't mean people who come from different cultures but all moved the same place and share a kind of mixed cultural milieu, but people who honest to God disagree about some very fundamental things. My one tiny data point I will give here is that every survey says that people on the left are more willing to cut off family members and friends over politics. At first blush that is not the most open-minded behavior lol Social media has helped silo people with their media consumption, so maybe both sides are becoming alike, but i do think that for a long time the right had an idea, imperfectly followed, as principles often are, that accepting that people could disagree with you over VALUES was ok. Ok, i also think is true that a Mile Pence type politician is closer to the archetype conservatives historically voted for. It is also inarguable that that is simply not the direction of travel now. You're right about leftwing people not being particularly open minded. I saw those same stats. You don't have to go farther than this thread, GH could never picture himself working with someone that doesn't pass his purity tests. We are in a big mess and it's not getting better. But you are connecting those two dots by saying "this can only mean that leftwing people are ignorant of what people that disagree with them think, otherwise they'd be more open minded". You could make the reverse argument "this is because leftwing people know exactly what the people they disagree with think and can't see themselves engaging with that kind of disregard for human rights". I think the latter is closer to the truth than the former. ah, I see what you are saying, I think. Is that not disagreeing more with the potential ideological underpinnings previously mentioned? I guess I would return to the (admittedly extreme) example I gave. From what I can tell, it's not that hard, just by accident of birth, to never come across very conservative viewpoints articulated well and and defended systematically. There's no guarantee of it in high school, non in college, almost none in regular print media. In popular media you might have some right-of-center ideas appear and presented perhaps sympathetically (though also often unsympathetically). If those ideas appear there one often has to wonder if it was an accident, and it's often just background or subtext. Now of course it's true that none of these things make those views right or wrong. But I don't think I'm getting too far ahead of myself in saying it's more difficult for someone on the right to avoid opinions and arguments they don't want to hear then someone on the left. Making all allowance for individual circumstances of course.
We already know that you consider far-right publications "right-of-center", so I hope you excuse me for laughing out loud while you describe "right-of-center" ideas as those being presented in movies/TV etc. in your argument about left-wingers not being tolerant of/knowledgeable about right-wing (read: far-right) ideas.
You're crafting an argument on a basis of pure assumptions. You're still assuming a biased conclusion before fabricating a premise to fit the conclusion. If you stopped doing that, we could take you seriously.
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On September 27 2025 16:35 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2025 15:37 Introvert wrote:On September 27 2025 14:41 EnDeR_ wrote:On September 27 2025 11:19 Introvert wrote:On September 27 2025 00:23 EnDeR_ wrote:On September 26 2025 22:19 Introvert wrote:On September 26 2025 16:19 EnDeR_ wrote:On September 26 2025 12:21 Introvert wrote:
I would say it's more a hope born of necessity. For reasons both ideological and cultural it can be harder for people on the left to countenance people who disagree with them very strongly but that's part of why I think it will take some great national struggle or disaster to return our government to better functioning. Things will have to be placed aside, on both left and right.
Could you explain a bit more about what you mean by "it's harder for people on the left to countenance people that disagree with them very strongly"? Anecdotally, the two times I've had a conversation with someone heavily pro-Trump, even mild disagreement was taken as a personal offense that could not be countenanced. Neither time was a pleasant conversation. Anecdotically, also, the couple times I've had a strong disagreement with someone who identifies as 'on the left', it was fairly amicable and we reached a point where we could understand where each of us was coming from. If you want to know, a specific example was about trans people on TV and how this was going to mess up his kids, another was about DEI implementation in the workplace. Sent hit the nail on the head. In less rancourous times there was a saying, iirc penned by commentator Charles Krauthammer that "Conservatives think liberals are wrong, liberals think Conservatives are evil." I think this is mostly true (keep on mind we are saying "liberal" in the American sense of the word). For the criticism that the right is very "moralistic" i think surely that criticism (if you would even call it that) applies to the left at least as much. There is also the cultural dimension as well. American popular culture and academia has become so insular and increasingly left-wing that it's far easier, from what i can tell, for someone on the left to hear almost nothing from someone they disagree with than the opposite. It’s surely true on campus, and I and many others could attest to that personally. I'm sure it's not quite so overwhelming in a more conservative state, but any conservative who has ever attended college or seen a single thing a famous actor has said or read a news story in a legacy newspaper has had to read and interact with people they disagree with. Some Trumpers are incredibly annoying though, yes. I don't disagree that this may have been the case back in the day. But is it true now? I don't think right-wingers are moralistic; that kind of went when Trump became the standard-bearer. There was a clear shift from "holier than thou, you must uphold family values or you will go to hell" to "owning the libs", I don't think this is really arguable to be honest. In fact, it is becoming more and more common for right-wing people to describe anything left of center as their "enemies". You're painting conservatives as some kind of responsible parent with an unruly leftwing teenager, and I just don't think that image holds in modern America. Somewhat related to what you saying there is an interesting thing happening in the Republican party that it is getting less obviously religious. I think for a long time Democrats yearned for such a day,, now I wonder if they are reconsidering lol. That aside, I think it's hard to argue against the fact that discourse has gotten worse. For the moment I will abstain from guessing *why* but I do think you are more or less correct. I didn't mean my comments in a paternalistic sense, but I think at least that the type of politicians conservatives used to vote for were less combative. Again, for the sake of discussion I am agnostic as to why this is true. But I would add that this more aggressive tone doesn't undermine what I said. It's true, if you are left-wing nudist in Berkeley, California who only eats locally grown non-GMO vegetables, there's also a chance your social circle is more "diverse" than an 85% white evangelical town in Nowhereville, Arkansas. But if you or your kids in that small town went to college almost anywhere, if they ever turned on the news, if they ever saw a movie, if they ever read anything at all about the nation they lived in, they'd have a deeper understanding of people on the other side than the free-range Bay Area man. Because that left-wing man in one of the hearts of blue America *probably* knows far less about the tens of millions of citizens who disagree with him than the college educated evangelical Christian. Sure, the former may know lots of people, but he has a huge, huge blind spot. And it would be entirely possible to go on living that way unless he consciously chose to learn something more. It's not that people on the right can't be a-holes or close-minded. I think these are all traits that come with human.exe, no software update required. Maybe that's my conservatism talking. So I think both sides are growing in their obvious and stated contempt for the other, but combined with what I said and Sent. so succinctly summarized before, I think (my opinion) that it's harder for people on the left to really know what people who disagree with them think. I don't mean people who come from different cultures but all moved the same place and share a kind of mixed cultural milieu, but people who honest to God disagree about some very fundamental things. My one tiny data point I will give here is that every survey says that people on the left are more willing to cut off family members and friends over politics. At first blush that is not the most open-minded behavior lol Social media has helped silo people with their media consumption, so maybe both sides are becoming alike, but i do think that for a long time the right had an idea, imperfectly followed, as principles often are, that accepting that people could disagree with you over VALUES was ok. Ok, i also think is true that a Mile Pence type politician is closer to the archetype conservatives historically voted for. It is also inarguable that that is simply not the direction of travel now. You're right about leftwing people not being particularly open minded. I saw those same stats. You don't have to go farther than this thread, GH could never picture himself working with someone that doesn't pass his purity tests. We are in a big mess and it's not getting better. But you are connecting those two dots by saying "this can only mean that leftwing people are ignorant of what people that disagree with them think, otherwise they'd be more open minded". You could make the reverse argument "this is because leftwing people know exactly what the people they disagree with think and can't see themselves engaging with that kind of disregard for human rights". I think the latter is closer to the truth than the former. ah, I see what you are saying, I think. Is that not disagreeing more with the potential ideological underpinnings previously mentioned? I guess I would return to the (admittedly extreme) example I gave. From what I can tell, it's not that hard, just by accident of birth, to never come across very conservative viewpoints articulated well and and defended systematically. There's no guarantee of it in high school, non in college, almost none in regular print media. In popular media you might have some right-of-center ideas appear and presented perhaps sympathetically (though also often unsympathetically). If those ideas appear there one often has to wonder if it was an accident, and it's often just background or subtext. Now of course it's true that none of these things make those views right or wrong. But I don't think I'm getting too far ahead of myself in saying it's more difficult for someone on the right to avoid opinions and arguments they don't want to hear then someone on the left. Making all allowance for individual circumstances of course. We already know that you consider far-right publications "right-of-center", so I hope you excuse me for laughing out loud while you describe "right-of-center" ideas as those being presented in movies/TV etc. in your argument about left-wingers not being tolerant of/knowledgeable about right-wing (read: far-right) ideas. You're crafting an argument on a basis of pure assumptions. You're still assuming a biased conclusion before fabricating a premise to fit the conclusion. If you stopped doing that, we could take you seriously.
I contend your lack of familiarity with the American right is perfectly ok but makes you look silly when you start talking like this. you are free to contest the premises but I have made a valid argument. Unfortunately, to dispute the premises you have to know something about them.
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On September 27 2025 16:48 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2025 16:35 Magic Powers wrote:On September 27 2025 15:37 Introvert wrote:On September 27 2025 14:41 EnDeR_ wrote:On September 27 2025 11:19 Introvert wrote:On September 27 2025 00:23 EnDeR_ wrote:On September 26 2025 22:19 Introvert wrote:On September 26 2025 16:19 EnDeR_ wrote:On September 26 2025 12:21 Introvert wrote:
I would say it's more a hope born of necessity. For reasons both ideological and cultural it can be harder for people on the left to countenance people who disagree with them very strongly but that's part of why I think it will take some great national struggle or disaster to return our government to better functioning. Things will have to be placed aside, on both left and right.
Could you explain a bit more about what you mean by "it's harder for people on the left to countenance people that disagree with them very strongly"? Anecdotally, the two times I've had a conversation with someone heavily pro-Trump, even mild disagreement was taken as a personal offense that could not be countenanced. Neither time was a pleasant conversation. Anecdotically, also, the couple times I've had a strong disagreement with someone who identifies as 'on the left', it was fairly amicable and we reached a point where we could understand where each of us was coming from. If you want to know, a specific example was about trans people on TV and how this was going to mess up his kids, another was about DEI implementation in the workplace. Sent hit the nail on the head. In less rancourous times there was a saying, iirc penned by commentator Charles Krauthammer that "Conservatives think liberals are wrong, liberals think Conservatives are evil." I think this is mostly true (keep on mind we are saying "liberal" in the American sense of the word). For the criticism that the right is very "moralistic" i think surely that criticism (if you would even call it that) applies to the left at least as much. There is also the cultural dimension as well. American popular culture and academia has become so insular and increasingly left-wing that it's far easier, from what i can tell, for someone on the left to hear almost nothing from someone they disagree with than the opposite. It’s surely true on campus, and I and many others could attest to that personally. I'm sure it's not quite so overwhelming in a more conservative state, but any conservative who has ever attended college or seen a single thing a famous actor has said or read a news story in a legacy newspaper has had to read and interact with people they disagree with. Some Trumpers are incredibly annoying though, yes. I don't disagree that this may have been the case back in the day. But is it true now? I don't think right-wingers are moralistic; that kind of went when Trump became the standard-bearer. There was a clear shift from "holier than thou, you must uphold family values or you will go to hell" to "owning the libs", I don't think this is really arguable to be honest. In fact, it is becoming more and more common for right-wing people to describe anything left of center as their "enemies". You're painting conservatives as some kind of responsible parent with an unruly leftwing teenager, and I just don't think that image holds in modern America. Somewhat related to what you saying there is an interesting thing happening in the Republican party that it is getting less obviously religious. I think for a long time Democrats yearned for such a day,, now I wonder if they are reconsidering lol. That aside, I think it's hard to argue against the fact that discourse has gotten worse. For the moment I will abstain from guessing *why* but I do think you are more or less correct. I didn't mean my comments in a paternalistic sense, but I think at least that the type of politicians conservatives used to vote for were less combative. Again, for the sake of discussion I am agnostic as to why this is true. But I would add that this more aggressive tone doesn't undermine what I said. It's true, if you are left-wing nudist in Berkeley, California who only eats locally grown non-GMO vegetables, there's also a chance your social circle is more "diverse" than an 85% white evangelical town in Nowhereville, Arkansas. But if you or your kids in that small town went to college almost anywhere, if they ever turned on the news, if they ever saw a movie, if they ever read anything at all about the nation they lived in, they'd have a deeper understanding of people on the other side than the free-range Bay Area man. Because that left-wing man in one of the hearts of blue America *probably* knows far less about the tens of millions of citizens who disagree with him than the college educated evangelical Christian. Sure, the former may know lots of people, but he has a huge, huge blind spot. And it would be entirely possible to go on living that way unless he consciously chose to learn something more. It's not that people on the right can't be a-holes or close-minded. I think these are all traits that come with human.exe, no software update required. Maybe that's my conservatism talking. So I think both sides are growing in their obvious and stated contempt for the other, but combined with what I said and Sent. so succinctly summarized before, I think (my opinion) that it's harder for people on the left to really know what people who disagree with them think. I don't mean people who come from different cultures but all moved the same place and share a kind of mixed cultural milieu, but people who honest to God disagree about some very fundamental things. My one tiny data point I will give here is that every survey says that people on the left are more willing to cut off family members and friends over politics. At first blush that is not the most open-minded behavior lol Social media has helped silo people with their media consumption, so maybe both sides are becoming alike, but i do think that for a long time the right had an idea, imperfectly followed, as principles often are, that accepting that people could disagree with you over VALUES was ok. Ok, i also think is true that a Mile Pence type politician is closer to the archetype conservatives historically voted for. It is also inarguable that that is simply not the direction of travel now. You're right about leftwing people not being particularly open minded. I saw those same stats. You don't have to go farther than this thread, GH could never picture himself working with someone that doesn't pass his purity tests. We are in a big mess and it's not getting better. But you are connecting those two dots by saying "this can only mean that leftwing people are ignorant of what people that disagree with them think, otherwise they'd be more open minded". You could make the reverse argument "this is because leftwing people know exactly what the people they disagree with think and can't see themselves engaging with that kind of disregard for human rights". I think the latter is closer to the truth than the former. ah, I see what you are saying, I think. Is that not disagreeing more with the potential ideological underpinnings previously mentioned? I guess I would return to the (admittedly extreme) example I gave. From what I can tell, it's not that hard, just by accident of birth, to never come across very conservative viewpoints articulated well and and defended systematically. There's no guarantee of it in high school, non in college, almost none in regular print media. In popular media you might have some right-of-center ideas appear and presented perhaps sympathetically (though also often unsympathetically). If those ideas appear there one often has to wonder if it was an accident, and it's often just background or subtext. Now of course it's true that none of these things make those views right or wrong. But I don't think I'm getting too far ahead of myself in saying it's more difficult for someone on the right to avoid opinions and arguments they don't want to hear then someone on the left. Making all allowance for individual circumstances of course. We already know that you consider far-right publications "right-of-center", so I hope you excuse me for laughing out loud while you describe "right-of-center" ideas as those being presented in movies/TV etc. in your argument about left-wingers not being tolerant of/knowledgeable about right-wing (read: far-right) ideas. You're crafting an argument on a basis of pure assumptions. You're still assuming a biased conclusion before fabricating a premise to fit the conclusion. If you stopped doing that, we could take you seriously. I contend your lack of familiarity with the American right is perfectly ok but makes you look silly when you start talking like this. you are free to contest the premises but I have made a valid argument. Unfortunately, to dispute the premises you have to know something about them.
I know the American right as well as you do. Argue with my argument, don't attack me as a person. Follow the thread rules.
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EPT
