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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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DropBear
Australia4374 Posts
On February 28 2025 18:42 WombaT wrote: I’m not very good at reading complicated graphs, can some kind soul explain that one for me? It says that under Republicans, the US national debt goes up. Under Democrats, US national debt goes down. I would like to see 2022, 2023 and 2024 though | ||
KwarK
United States43203 Posts
On February 28 2025 18:49 DropBear wrote: It says that under Republicans, the US national debt goes up. Under Democrats, US national debt goes down. I would like to see 2022, 2023 and 2024 though Under Democrats it goes up less sharply except Clinton. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11623 Posts
On February 28 2025 18:42 WombaT wrote: I’m not very good at reading complicated graphs, can some kind soul explain that one for me? Description (neutral) The higher the bar, the higher the deficit. (Spending - Revenue) in percent of GDP, this number is thus scaled to how big the economy was in that year. During some presidents time, the bars got bigger on average. During other presidents time, the bars got smaller on average this is denoted as trend lines. The colours mean which party the president belonged to. Note that this is the deficit, not the actual debt. The debt is the integral over time of that deficit. As long as the lines are above zero, debt goes up. Interpretation (opinion): Some people might notice correlations between party membership of the president and the direction of the change in size of the bars. That correlation does not correspond to what one party specifically claims about which party is irresponsible with money and which party knows how to handle money. One can also note that the guy constantly talking about reducing the deficit has the singular worst record in this regard compared to any president in that timeline. I also want to add that debt is not necessarily a bad thing for a country. Borrowing money cheaply and using that money to invest in the country so there is a better economy later can be a very good thing. | ||
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oBlade
United States5765 Posts
On February 28 2025 18:42 WombaT wrote: I’m not very good at reading complicated graphs, can some kind soul explain that one for me? Basically, it means either: 1) 2008 and 2020 were outliers of huge deficit spending by Congress, which everyone in this thread knows is the branch that controls spending. Wonder what happened in those years. OR 1) Biden died after 1 year and 2) Except for COVID in 2020, Congress under Democrat administrations has generally spent with bigger deficits than Republicans On February 28 2025 18:49 DropBear wrote: It says that under Republicans, the US national debt goes up. Under Democrats, US national debt goes down. I would like to see 2022, 2023 and 2024 though It doesn't show that. If there is a deficit, the debt is going up. Period. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10801 Posts
So if any R tells you, they care about the deficit/spending or anything of the stort, just laugh them out of the room. They care about their own Taxes. Which makes sense, they are too eogistical or dim to see anything in a context other than "MYYY PREECCCIOUS". | ||
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EnDeR_
Spain2773 Posts
On February 28 2025 18:53 oBlade wrote: Basically, it means either: 1) 2008 and 2020 were outliers of huge deficit spending by Congress, which everyone in this thread knows is the branch that controls spending. Wonder what happened in those years. OR 1) Biden died after 1 year and 2) Except for COVID in 2020, Congress under Democrat administrations has generally spent with bigger deficits than Republicans It doesn't show that. If there is a deficit, the debt is going up. Period. oBlade is correct in that, other than during a brief period between 1998 and 2000, the debt has gone up with every sitting president. However, you can make a point about who has made the debt go up "more". Looking at the graph, it is pretty evident that the Trump tax cuts from 2017 caused the biggest increase in debt by any sitting president in history. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25996 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium4951 Posts
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KwarK
United States43203 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium4951 Posts
This cements my hypothesis once more that truth is narrative driven, not data driven. People voted for Trump because he's a blabbermouth, not because he uses nice speech and is able to dance around topics (well he is by not knowing specifics on subject matters and usually spouting word salads that are incoherent as 80+ year olds usually start to have, but you know...). That resonates now with people. They're done with all the high class vocabulary, legislatory talk. It sounds weaselish and non-trustworthy to them. But, what people fail to account for is nuance. They don't know how complex the government is and they want a oversimplification of an oversimplification. + Show Spoiler + By the way, I hate posting shorts: do you think Russel is also compromised by the Russians? https://www.youtube.com/shorts/FaqSSbVgbKA | ||
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Simberto
Germany11623 Posts
On February 28 2025 19:39 KwarK wrote: Fortunately Trump fired a shitload of IRS agents so that should help. He just needs to fire the guys who do the budget numbers. Can't have a deficit if you don't look at the books! On February 28 2025 19:13 WombaT wrote: Thanks for the responses y’all, although am disappoint you didn’t pick up the sarcasm :p I am a maths teacher, so i am working off the base assumption that someone really doesn't understand when they ask a question about maths. | ||
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Dan HH
Romania9135 Posts
On February 28 2025 20:34 Simberto wrote: He just needs to fire the guys who do the budget numbers. Can't have a deficit if you don't look at the books! Oh we can go much lower than that. Have Rogan introduce Trump to Terrence Howard and we might get an executive order that redefines math and physics. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45012 Posts
On February 28 2025 21:11 Dan HH wrote: Oh we can go much lower than that. Have Rogan introduce Trump to Terrence Howard and we might get an executive order that redefines math and physics. Oh god no. They've already tried redefining biology lol. Might as well sabotage the rest of the STEM fields. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23453 Posts
On February 28 2025 18:26 Simberto wrote: I wrote a lengthy response to this. Then i deleted it. Because i thought: "Nevermind. I should take my own advice and stop replying to you. You are simply not worth talking to." Debatelord conservatives are fucking exhausting. If anyone else wants to talk about anything else but this constant idiotic fight with oBlade, i am open for it. LibHorizons: I have a standing invitation to discuss how libs/Dems/Ilk like myself and others can work together towards opposing the Trump administration's agenda. Developing a deliberate and executable plan to gain power and use it. As well as something people can organize around accomplishing over the coming months and years. It's notable that no one is doing it. Especially those that insist they want a better Democratic party but are doing nothing to bring that about besides "hoping", "wishing", and maybe voting in a primary ~year from now . Instead everyone prefers to incessantly do the "Republicans are so stupid and bad, look at how stupid and bad they are" thing while interspersing pointless bad faith arguments with the oBlades of the world. | ||
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oBlade
United States5765 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25996 Posts
On February 28 2025 22:38 GreenHorizons wrote: LibHorizons: I have a standing invitation to discuss how libs/Dems/Ilk like myself and others can work together towards opposing the Trump administration's agenda. Developing a deliberate and executable plan to gain power and use it. As well as something people can organize around accomplishing over the coming months and years. It's notable that no one is doing it. Especially those that insist they want a better Democratic party but are doing nothing to bring that about besides "hoping", "wishing", and maybe voting in a primary ~year from now . Instead everyone prefers to incessantly do the "Republicans are so stupid and bad, look at how stupid and bad they are" thing while interspersing pointless bad faith arguments with the oBlades of the world. There’s just as much disagreement and engagement between everyone else, it’s not like people lurk and don’t contribute unless there’s some conservative for everyone to dunk on. I don’t think that’s an especially fair categorisation. I also think more broadly, most posters here tick the following two boxes: 1. We can collectively do better, the Democratic Party sure as fuck can. 2. That aside, we should keep Trump out of office, or politics of this kind in Europe etc. If we can’t even collectively do that, pushing the status quo towards the left is a bloody tall order. I’m not an expert political strategist, but I don’t think a ‘hey the election is done now, let’s not mention all the stuff we did to let Trump in, what are you going to do now?’ is particularly effective. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11623 Posts
On February 28 2025 23:05 WombaT wrote: There’s just as much disagreement and engagement between everyone else, it’s not like people lurk and don’t contribute unless there’s some conservative for everyone to dunk on. I don’t think that’s an especially fair categorisation. I also think more broadly, most posters here tick the following two boxes: 1. We can collectively do better, the Democratic Party sure as fuck can. 2. That aside, we should keep Trump out of office, or politics of this kind in Europe etc. If we can’t even collectively do that, pushing the status quo towards the left is a bloody tall order. I’m not an expert political strategist, but I don’t think a ‘hey the election is done now, let’s not mention all the stuff we did to let Trump in, what are you going to do now?’ is particularly effective. Agreed on both boxes. I must also say that i apparently missed whenever GH started doing the LibHorizons thing, so i don't really get what that is about and mostly ignored it. Is it GH roleplaying as a Democrat? | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45012 Posts
On February 28 2025 23:17 Simberto wrote: Agreed on both boxes. I must also say that i apparently missed whenever GH started doing the LibHorizons thing, so i don't really get what that is about and mostly ignored it. Is it GH roleplaying as a Democrat? Yeah pretty much. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18110 Posts
On February 28 2025 19:09 EnDeR_ wrote: oBlade is correct in that, other than during a brief period between 1998 and 2000, the debt has gone up with every sitting president. However, you can make a point about who has made the debt go up "more". Looking at the graph, it is pretty evident that the Trump tax cuts from 2017 caused the biggest increase in debt by any sitting president in history. That isn't the conclusion I'd draw from a giant jump in deficit spending in 2020... Don't get me wrong, Trump's 2017 tax cut is idiotic. But without COVID those two bars on the right of that graph would not look like that. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18110 Posts
On February 28 2025 22:38 GreenHorizons wrote: LibHorizons: I have a standing invitation to discuss how libs/Dems/Ilk like myself and others can work together towards opposing the Trump administration's agenda. Developing a deliberate and executable plan to gain power and use it. As well as something people can organize around accomplishing over the coming months and years. It's notable that no one is doing it. Especially those that insist they want a better Democratic party but are doing nothing to bring that about besides "hoping", "wishing", and maybe voting in a primary ~year from now . Instead everyone prefers to incessantly do the "Republicans are so stupid and bad, look at how stupid and bad they are" thing while interspersing pointless bad faith arguments with the oBlades of the world. Tbf, other than DPB and Kwark, most of the people who are on your side are on the other side of the pond and have no real clout with the Democratic party or any other parts of US politics. But if you pick a day we can go to our local US consulates and throw eggs at them or something. | ||
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