EPTIn any case, a quick search didn't show a 10%-20% layoff every so often to keep people sharp, so I'd like to see some numbers backing up these claims.
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 4683
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Uldridge
Belgium4975 Posts
In any case, a quick search didn't show a 10%-20% layoff every so often to keep people sharp, so I'd like to see some numbers backing up these claims. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10821 Posts
I don't doubt that some crypto/tech/enterprenuer-bro has given speeches about how awesome and how much sense such a practise makes. When I personally look around... Brain/Experience drain due to people going into retirement or changing their work place for other reasons is easily one of the biggest problems most firms face. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On January 03 2025 21:10 Uldridge wrote: Didn't know you had access to business owners that are relatively large in size who have the pull to just lay off 10% of their staff at a whim. In any case, a quick search didn't show a 10%-20% layoff every so often to keep people sharp, so I'd like to see some numbers backing up these claims. I'm not claiming it myself, I'm asking. I only recently learned about this phenomenon and I want to understand it myself (in case it's real and not a myth). | ||
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Sadist
United States7294 Posts
The key for these workers is to try to stay long enough to get a green card so then you can leave to go work wherever you want. That takes years though so you are gonna be underpaid with minimal security for years. You got to get lucky as blanket layoffs of the contract workforce can fuck you over through no fault of your own. | ||
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Sadist
United States7294 Posts
On January 03 2025 21:48 Magic Powers wrote: I'm not claiming it myself, I'm asking. I only recently learned about this phenomenon and I want to understand it myself (in case it's real and not a myth). This does not happen in any industry i have heard of anymore unless the company is trying to shrink the workforce. Jack Welch was a big proponent of this at GE and sadly it caught on for a while (he was a total fuckhead imo). Forced ranking rating systems and the like need to go the way of the dinosaur. Its terrible for morale. Sure there is always bloat at large companies and you do have low performers that can probably go in the beginning, but after years of this you will kill your company IMO. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On January 03 2025 22:03 Sadist wrote: This does not happen in any industry i have heard of anymore unless the company is trying to shrink the workforce. Jack Welch was a big proponent of this at GE and sadly it caught on for a while (he was a total fuckhead imo). Forced ranking rating systems and the like need to go the way of the dinosaur. Its terrible for morale. Sure there is always bloat at large companies and you do have low performers that can probably go in the beginning, but after years of this you will kill your company IMO. I see, so nowadays it may still be a practice in a few specific companies but isn't a widespread issue? That sounds plausible, there will always be bad practice in a number of companies. Then it's good to point out when it happens but not something to generally raise the alarm about. | ||
KwarK
United States43337 Posts
On January 03 2025 18:44 Uldridge wrote: It seems that, based on Mohdoos claims about strawberry picking, he doesn't have much of a clue about working conditions and employer-employee dynamics. For instance, getting a higher education high specialty person up to speed and worked in every so often (20% of your work force!?) is very costly and a hassle I think no company ever wants to deal with actually. What an HR mess that thing has to be. Exception: all these contracts are temporary and are renewed every year. Seems ridiculous still as you want a stable workforce. Experience and specialization gives your busines flexibility and reliability. No, it’s you who have no clue bud. You may think that no company would do that but Jack Welch of GE who was a hugely influential figure in management made his name by doing exactly that. Just because it seems like it’d be really stupid doesn’t mean that it can’t be how it’s done in management. | ||
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KwarK
United States43337 Posts
On January 03 2025 22:48 Magic Powers wrote: I see, so nowadays it may still be a practice in a few specific companies but isn't a widespread issue? That sounds plausible, there will always be bad practice in a number of companies. Then it's good to point out when it happens but not something to generally raise the alarm about. Twitter did it when Elon took over. It happens a lot. It’s hard to explain just how important GE was back then because of its total failure since then. CEO of GE was the most important corporate job in America which therefore made it the most important job in America. GE was the company, a massive conglomerate that made everything from fuses to jet engines. What they did trickled down through corporate culture in the same way that the techniques that the Beatles pioneered influenced everything that came after. So when Jack Welch comes up with forced rankings and firing the bottom 10% then that’s not an isolated event, that’s the gold standard. That’s taught to all the MBAs. That’s what you talk about in job interviews to show you’re not a dinosaur. It’s part of the culture. This was a few decades ago and GE is no longer the same company but you absolutely cannot understate how influential all this shit was. The Beatles may not be releasing new albums today but that doesn’t make them irrelevant. Firing bottom performers en masse is still absolutely a thing, even if you would come across as a bit of a boomer for doing it. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18146 Posts
On January 04 2025 01:10 KwarK wrote: Twitter did it when Elon took over. It happens a lot. It’s hard to explain just how important GE was back then because of its total failure since then. CEO of GE was the most important corporate job in America which therefore made it the most important job in America. GE was the company, a massive conglomerate that made everything from fuses to jet engines. What they did trickled down through corporate culture in the same way that the techniques that the Beatles pioneered influenced everything that came after. So when Jack Welch comes up with forced rankings and firing the bottom 10% then that’s not an isolated event, that’s the gold standard. That’s taught to all the MBAs. That’s what you talk about in job interviews to show you’re not a dinosaur. It’s part of the culture. This was a few decades ago and GE is no longer the same company but you absolutely cannot understate how influential all this shit was. The Beatles may not be releasing new albums today but that doesn’t make them irrelevant. Firing bottom performers en masse is still absolutely a thing, even if you would come across as a bit of a boomer for doing it. I don't think we're (and I'll admit velr, uldridge and my ideas might differ here, but will lump us together for now) asserting that it doesn't happen in some companies. We're just questioning that this is currently the norm in tech companies. Velr and I apparently based on our own experiences working in tech companies (albeit in Europe), and uldridge on general organisational principles. Note that we're all in Europe, where firing people tends to be considerably more expensive for the company than it is in the US. "Underperforming" is generally not a valid reason for firing, and the employee would receive a compensation. Rounds of layoffs obviously happen. Sometimes a company does worse than expected, and finds itself with too many employees for its new situation. Then people need to be fired. Here in Spain there's something called an ERE, an administrative procedure that a company may file for that allows for a negotiated shrinking. Even then employees that get laid off have a right to compensation, usually negotiated between the unions and the employer. Most European countries have some kind of system for this. However, it isn't seen as healthy or normal when a company has to do this. Furthermore, there are currently far more jobs in tech than qualified people. Most companies have been desperately trying to hold on to everybody, as general policy. Firing people in rounds for "underperforming" would soon give you a reputation as a horrible company to work for, and you'd have to pay more to compensate. It'd probably just go downhill from there... so companies instead try to maintain a reputation as a great place to work, which includes avoiding unnecessary stress from frequent rounds of layoffs. Last year's performance reviews I heard rumors that each manager was only allowed to designate at most one employee as exceeding expectations, so when I got that designation I brought it up with my manager. He said it was nonsense. Both a colleague, who had imho exceeded expectations far more than I had, and I could both get it (and the slightly higher bonus that goes with that). That stands in stark contrast to the previous company I mentioned earlier that definitely had strict forced rankings and at most one person could be at the top and at least one person had to be in the bottom "grade". | ||
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KwarK
United States43337 Posts
Stack ranking and the layoffs are still popular in tech. Europe is obviously different because you literally can’t do it in Europe. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14051 Posts
AND THE CLOWN SHOW IS BACK 3 have voted for someone other than johnson from the GOP and we're back in the shit show that is house congressional chaos. 6 abstentions as of now but that could change. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45149 Posts
On January 04 2025 03:30 Sermokala wrote: The vote for speaker is on right now. AND THE CLOWN SHOW IS BACK 3 have voted for someone other than johnson from the GOP and we're back in the shit show that is house congressional chaos. 6 abstentions as of now but that could change. Are the 3 GOP dissenters uniting around someone else? What's the point, tbh? | ||
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Sermokala
United States14051 Posts
On January 04 2025 03:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Are the 3 GOP dissenters uniting around someone else? What's the point, tbh? Sir this is the Republican party. Democrats sending out a representative from the colonies and territories to protest them not being able to vote lol. Jeffries wins if the absentie or non voting republicans don't vote for someone lol. If I had to give a real answer I think this is the first spark of the civil war that was inevitable. A part of the modern gop heard the propaganda about them being the party of fiscal responsibility and believed it. Meanwhile trump has always been a cut taxes/increase spending kind of guy. Ok they did background haranguing and are now going to vote for johnson. Very swampy shit lol. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15725 Posts
On January 04 2025 01:48 Acrofales wrote: I don't think we're (and I'll admit velr, uldridge and my ideas might differ here, but will lump us together for now) asserting that it doesn't happen in some companies. We're just questioning that this is currently the norm in tech companies. Velr and I apparently based on our own experiences working in tech companies (albeit in Europe), and uldridge on general organisational principles. Note that we're all in Europe, where firing people tends to be considerably more expensive for the company than it is in the US. "Underperforming" is generally not a valid reason for firing, and the employee would receive a compensation. Rounds of layoffs obviously happen. Sometimes a company does worse than expected, and finds itself with too many employees for its new situation. Then people need to be fired. Here in Spain there's something called an ERE, an administrative procedure that a company may file for that allows for a negotiated shrinking. Even then employees that get laid off have a right to compensation, usually negotiated between the unions and the employer. Most European countries have some kind of system for this. However, it isn't seen as healthy or normal when a company has to do this. Furthermore, there are currently far more jobs in tech than qualified people. Most companies have been desperately trying to hold on to everybody, as general policy. Firing people in rounds for "underperforming" would soon give you a reputation as a horrible company to work for, and you'd have to pay more to compensate. It'd probably just go downhill from there... so companies instead try to maintain a reputation as a great place to work, which includes avoiding unnecessary stress from frequent rounds of layoffs. Last year's performance reviews I heard rumors that each manager was only allowed to designate at most one employee as exceeding expectations, so when I got that designation I brought it up with my manager. He said it was nonsense. Both a colleague, who had imho exceeded expectations far more than I had, and I could both get it (and the slightly higher bonus that goes with that). That stands in stark contrast to the previous company I mentioned earlier that definitely had strict forced rankings and at most one person could be at the top and at least one person had to be in the bottom "grade". I get what you're saying and there is some correctness to what you're saying. But human psychology plays a big role too. As Kwark pointed out, you are indeed underestimating the amount of layoffs or firing that occurs in the US. As a frame of reference, engineering managers in the US laugh about how its "totally impossible to fire anyone in Europe". From their perspective, its like Europeans are never fired. Layoffs are not only in large announced waves in the US. Sometimes companies just kinda quietly fire 100 people. Those people fired will always be the ones who were lower in the group rankings last year. I know you and I agree and disagree off and on, but I hope you have interacted with me enough to know that I don't try to make things up to save face or win an argument. I will happily be labeled a lunatic for the things I say, but you always know I really think what I am saying is true. I have been in my industry for over 10 years and have other friends who have worked in all the big companies of my industry. My experience and the experiences of my friends all paint the same picture: There is a constant looming fog of layoffs. Management will also drizzle in bits of fear mongering about financial results and "hope there aren't layoffs, but you never know" and other such things. Engineering managers often have too many people on their teams and can't reasonably keep track of every small contribution of every member of their team. This has an unfortunate result of people needing to "market" themselves and constantly seek visibility and to broadcast their contributions. Rather than being judged strictly by the merits of their contributions, feats of valor in the form of working late or replying to emails during the weekend become critical components to having a strong and favorable annual rating. I'm not so cynical as to say individual contributions don't matter. They of course do and are a major part of ratings as well. But the feats of valor are major, huge contributions as well. The H1Bs being scattered across each time define the peak of feats of valor. They produce large sets of data, send long detailed emails, and do other various things at heinous times of night and during the weekend. Anyone would do what they do, with how much is on the line for them. But here is where the situation gets even more dark. I have a friend who has an H1B on his team that is often championed as an example for others to mirror. Even though his team isn't technically required to work weekends, management always widely draws attention to the things the H1B worker does over the weekend and reminds everyone its important to put their full soul into their work. In this way, the feats of valor become a core component of everyone's job and H1B workers are used to pull everyone else along. And now for the most grim part of this story. This H1B worker, despite being cheered for by management, is a full job level lower than everyone else on the team who is supposed to model themselves after. Despite being on the team for years, somehow passed up for promotion. Could it be because management knows this person is essentially an indentured servant? Fearing deportation if they get fired? Maybe, but I guess we'll never know for sure. It is interesting that another friend of mine has an extremely similar anecdote though. Since I haven't directly seen this at my company, I won't put some giant stamp on it as a universal truth. But I can absolutely put my giant stamp of truth on every other part of this description within my industry. The H1B worker fights for survival, then is used as an example for everyone else to dump their lives into their work. People who don't pick up the pace are criticized and shamed while the H1B worker makes significantly less than everyone else. | ||
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micronesia
United States24745 Posts
edit: looks like it was the first vote actually | ||
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RenSC2
United States1074 Posts
After that round of layoffs, the CEO asked for another round. So the person fired another round, except this time it cut deep and they lost some well liked people who were mediocre workers. After that, the CEO decided it was best not to demand any more cuts from that IT department. I believe the company had H1B employees at the time and mostly kept them because they were mostly producing more than the locals. Most companies in America don't just fire the bottom X% every year or even have a % based ranking system like that. Instead, people will get evaluations that are not rank based, but could be used if needed to make cuts. There are indeed labor laws that protect employees, although they vary from state to state. H1B employees are expected to do more work for less pay and thus employers love them and rely on them. They're great for the companies, but hurt the local labor market. Cutting H1B would hurt American companies, bigly. However, it'd be good for American workers (assuming companies survive having their cheap labor cut out from under them). Trump is in his first meaningful fight with his own populist base. Trump wants cheap labor because he's a corporatist at heart. His populist base wants to defend the American worker from corporatists. I guess we get to grab some popcorn as his base gets tossed under the bus. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4975 Posts
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Sermokala
United States14051 Posts
On January 04 2025 04:35 micronesia wrote: I'm just tuning in now. Did Johnson just win on a second vote? edit: looks like it was the first vote actually So he effectivly lost the first vote, but because there is literaly nothing else to do other than vote for a speaker of the house at the start you can just pause time effectivly. Johnson went into a literal backroom with people and made some sort of deal to get people to switch their votes to him, which they then did, and then they gaveled out the end of the vote. Two years ago was special because gop leadership thought they could shame someone like matt gatz by him embaressing the party. It didn't work. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7387 Posts
On January 04 2025 07:43 Uldridge wrote: Let's say I'm extremely sorry for people being American once again. No wonder you guys are all taking anxiolytics. I'll never be rich, but I'll also never be so stressed that my hair falls out. Nothing motivates like being in the middle of a lease on an apartment and having to every day worry that your job will rug pull you and leave you stuck in a lease with no source of income, or like worrying about your job laying you off when you have a chronic medical condition that would bankrupt/kill you without health insurance, or in the case of an H1B visa person, nothing motivates like the threat of deportation! Gotta love it. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4975 Posts
By the way, I hope you can all stay safe and prosper. It's probably not all bad, but I seemingly wouldn't want to swap places at the moment. When you've landed a prominent position life is probably quite easy, but other social layers, well... | ||
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