EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 4670
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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Billyboy
1448 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15736 Posts
On December 20 2024 06:21 BlackJack wrote: I don't know why we've gone 9 rounds on Santa Claus. The argument for discussing him - that we shouldn't trust the government less for lying to us because we don't trust our parents less for lying about Santa can be dismissed with 2 seconds of rational thought (a lot to ask for some). We still trust our parents despite the lie because the years of them raising us outweighs the lie about a fairytale. If Fauci wants to start breastfeeding me then I'll let him pass on a couple lies here and there. Its an incredibly empty and shitty comparison. I agree. I often need to slap my hand away from the temptation of over-using metaphors and this is a reason why. A friendly word of advice for all my TL brethren: If the person you're engaging with dismisses your metaphor or expresses frustration with it, just ditch it. You don't need the metaphor. Just talk about the topic instead of trying to drag the rotting corpse of the metaphor along for every subsequent post. It just makes everyone, yourself included, frustrated and walking in circles. All that being said, I do think issues like panic buying, mass hysteria, and other similar dynamics are well-studied enough for us to understand it really is better for the government to tell partial truths sometimes. I wouldn't say Covid was handled well in that way. Covid was basically all the bad parts of government dishonesty without any of the good parts. So just being entirely clear while I do think fringe and special situations require dishonesty to prevent stampedes/trampling and stuff like that, I don't think our government's handling of covid can be excused by that. | ||
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Dan HH
Romania9173 Posts
On December 20 2024 06:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: What do you mean by "pro-Santa", because letting kids critically think about Santa's existence is the opposite of telling them he exists. If you just mean that you're pro- "letting kids figure out Santa doesn't exist on their own", then that makes sense to me; I wouldn't consider that position to be particularly pro- (or anti-) Santa. The discussion was whether to keep the tradition or discard it. My argument for keeping it is that initially telling children he exists only for them to inevitably develop doubts and questioning it is a valuable lesson. Even in a case like the one Fleetfeet described, when someone's parents are truthful about it from the start, the existence of the myth around them and seeing neighbours/classmates that buy into it makes them think about why people believe the things they do. It's not necessary of course, but as far as traditions go it's a rite of passage that I don't find useless. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
Then again I figured out who Santa was when I was five. Maybe that's an early age, I don't know. If at age ten I still didn't know the truth I might've developed jealousy or an inferiority complex. Maybe parents should tell their kids the truth about Santa at an earlier age. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28739 Posts
As a sidenote my 2 and a half year old is experiencing his first Christmas where he understands that something special is happening and it is amazing.  definitely not pushing the idea that the presents he gets are given by santa clause as a reward for being a good kid though lol. I remember i sorta pretended that mega man was real in kindergarten (i 'knew' he wasn't though) but i dont think i ever actually believed in santa tbh. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15736 Posts
On December 20 2024 07:47 Liquid`Drone wrote: Hm I'm just surprised that school age children seemingly believe in santa clause? Like a 3-4-5 year old ok, but when they're pushing 7-8? I think there's an issue with Christmas being so commerialized in the sense that it might well make poorer kids aware that they are poor because they hear that their classmates got stuff 10x as expensive as the stuff they got, but surely by the time they're comparing presents and understanding the costs of them they no longer believe in santa? As a sidenote my 2 and a half year old is experiencing his first Christmas where he understands that something special is happening and it is amazing. definitely not pushing the idea that the presents he gets are given by santa clause as a reward for being a good kid though lol. I remember i sorta pretended that mega man was real in kindergarten (i 'knew' he wasn't though) but i dont think i ever actually believed in santa tbh.Very happy you and your family are experiencing the magic of a kid's first fully aware Christmas. It was wonderful for us. Also, regarding 8 year olds believing in Santa, some parents take an obsessive interest in their kid believing Santa is real. They'll go so far as to intervene and try to convince their kids their friends are lying or something. It feels like some kinda weird emotional issue on the part of the parents, lol. My daughter enjoys Santa the same way she enjoys other fictional components of holidays. The few times she has been like "but wait is he real", I try to very gently inform her Santa isn't real by comparing him to other fictional characters we enjoy and emphasize the fun of it all. It feels like a good way to preserve the magic while also being honest. | ||
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Fleetfeet
Canada2636 Posts
On December 20 2024 03:59 Dan HH wrote: My pro-Santa argument is that kids wondering about whether he is or isn't real makes them think critically in a way that's difficult for schoolwork to mimic, because it's something they're very invested in. This is the exact reason I took a page from Calvin's father (from Calvin and Hobbes) and lie to my nieces and nephews. like this. | ||
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baal
10541 Posts
On December 20 2024 07:47 Liquid`Drone wrote: Hm I'm just surprised that school age children seemingly believe in santa clause? Like a 3-4-5 year old ok, but when they're pushing 7-8? I think there's an issue with Christmas being so commerialized in the sense that it might well make poorer kids aware that they are poor because they hear that their classmates got stuff 10x as expensive as the stuff they got, but surely by the time they're comparing presents and understanding the costs of them they no longer believe in santa? As a sidenote my 2 and a half year old is experiencing his first Christmas where he understands that something special is happening and it is amazing. definitely not pushing the idea that the presents he gets are given by santa clause as a reward for being a good kid though lol. I remember i sorta pretended that mega man was real in kindergarten (i 'knew' he wasn't though) but i dont think i ever actually believed in santa tbh.So are you planning on telling him Santa gives the presents regardless of his behaviour? I don't think it has much of a direct effect on the behavior of kids in terms of "being good" beyond like late november but I wonder if it has an impact in other ways like what message should you send?: Be good and good things will happen to you, or you will always be unconditionally loved or you could make an early stoic by randomizing his present and sometimes he gets coal for no fault of his own lol. | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5599 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium5046 Posts
There's some lore and it's evolved quite a bit and had also been completely perverted into a a grand commercial event, but it has something endearing. It's very public and he enters the country on a boat and you can go watch it with media hyping it up etc. But it's also an illusion that's shattered at a certain point and I'm also on the fence if it's all that necessary to keep the illusion there. Kids love it and I'm quite sure they don't have trauma after understanding he's not real. It's like a folklorian tradition that's got out of hand via marketing capitalizing on it. Bastards. Also it got political at one point because of reasons, but I won't get into that at the moment. It's basically fun times that strengthens social cohesion. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
For santa specifically, I've never really seen the ROI. It's a harder and harder lift as more parents come to the same conclusion, it's going to come crashing down eventually no matter what, and there is an unavoidable trust issue there even if it's minor in the scheme of things. I'd rather they just enjoy the fantasy as a fantasy. It feels more scaleable. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45270 Posts
On December 20 2024 22:07 Belisarius wrote: I've generally taken a "nah kid, spiderman's not real. But he's awesome!" stance. It seems to have simplified a lot of this stuff. They know what's real and what's not, but they also have a lot of fun pretending to web each other. It doesn't seem to be a problem. Kids are wired to imagine things, the average 5-year old is perfectly comfortable being full-on engaged with stuff that obviously doesn't exist. For santa specifically, I've never really seen the ROI. It's a harder and harder lift as more parents come to the same conclusion, it's going to come crashing down eventually no matter what, and there is an unavoidable trust issue there even if it's minor in the scheme of things. I'd rather they just enjoy the fantasy as a fantasy. It feels more scaleable. I like that take. Appreciating and assessing fictional and mythical characters happens all the time, in books and television and whatnot. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26242 Posts
On December 20 2024 22:07 Belisarius wrote: I've generally taken a "nah kid, spiderman's not real. But he's awesome!" stance. It seems to have simplified a lot of this stuff. They know what's real and what's not, but they also have a lot of fun pretending to web each other. It doesn't seem to be a problem. Kids are wired to imagine things, the average 5-year old is perfectly comfortable being full-on engaged with stuff that obviously doesn't exist. For santa specifically, I've never really seen the ROI. It's a harder and harder lift as more parents come to the same conclusion, it's going to come crashing down eventually no matter what, and there is an unavoidable trust issue there even if it's minor in the scheme of things. I'd rather they just enjoy the fantasy as a fantasy. It feels more scaleable. It was quite fun taking young kiddo to a Con because he thought he’d met the real Spiderman! Not something I could do now | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15736 Posts
On December 20 2024 14:41 baal wrote: So are you planning on telling him Santa gives the presents regardless of his behaviour? I don't think it has much of a direct effect on the behavior of kids in terms of "being good" beyond like late november but I wonder if it has an impact in other ways like what message should you send?: Be good and good things will happen to you, or you will always be unconditionally loved or you could make an early stoic by randomizing his present and sometimes he gets coal for no fault of his own lol. "Carrot on a stick" is bad for kids psychologically and has an overall negative effect on behavior long term. Its a bit of a trap for parents because it appears to work extremely well at first and then falls apart. Similar to when parents try to potty train their kids with rewards. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28739 Posts
On December 20 2024 14:41 baal wrote: So are you planning on telling him Santa gives the presents regardless of his behaviour? I don't think it has much of a direct effect on the behavior of kids in terms of "being good" beyond like late november but I wonder if it has an impact in other ways like what message should you send?: Be good and good things will happen to you, or you will always be unconditionally loved or you could make an early stoic by randomizing his present and sometimes he gets coal for no fault of his own lol. Not planning on telling him santa gives him presents at all. It'll say 'fra mamma og pappa' on the gifts we give him. He has had one interaction with santa so far - all the kids at an event were given a bag with one clementine and one chocolate inside. Considering that everybody got the same it clearly wasnt about how good the children were. That said, while I'm not opposed to applying some behaviorism in my child-rearing, as it clearly produces results, using behaviorism wantonly/incompetently risks the result where that is the only thing that works, and insofar it is possible, I prefer if the guiding principle for his moral choices is 'I'm doing this because it is the right thing to do' rather than 'I'm doing this because it produces the best result for me'. (Not that I expect or want the latter calculation to be entirely absent) | ||
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Ryzel
United States542 Posts
On December 21 2024 02:36 Liquid`Drone wrote: Not planning on telling him santa gives him presents at all. It'll say 'fra mamma og pappa' on the gifts we give him. He has had one interaction with santa so far - all the kids at an event were given a bag with one clementine and one chocolate inside. Considering that everybody got the same it clearly wasnt about how good the children were. That said, while I'm not opposed to applying some behaviorism in my child-rearing, as it clearly produces results, using behaviorism wantonly/incompetently risks the result where that is the only thing that works, and insofar it is possible, I prefer if the guiding principle for his moral choices is 'I'm doing this because it is the right thing to do' rather than 'I'm doing this because it produces the best result for me'. (Not that I expect or want the latter calculation to be entirely absent) The trick is making "the right thing to do" be the thing that "produces the best result for me", in the sense that the feeling of doing the right thing is conditioned to be the primary reinforcer. On December 21 2024 02:12 Mohdoo wrote: "Carrot on a stick" is bad for kids psychologically and has an overall negative effect on behavior long term. Its a bit of a trap for parents because it appears to work extremely well at first and then falls apart. Similar to when parents try to potty train their kids with rewards. On the contrary, "carrot on a stick" is the motivation for the vast majority of adults to get up in the morning and do their jobs. In the context of raising kids, you need the carrot to motivate them to do a difficult task, then deliver the carrot with praise for doing the right thing, then as they do the task more and more it gets easier and easier, so you fade the carrot more and more while keeping the praise. Done correctly over a long enough period, you get to the point where they're fluent in the task and they praise themselves for completing it with no external carrot necessary. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium5046 Posts
Did some of you get Santa black plilled at some point? | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15736 Posts
On December 21 2024 07:43 Uldridge wrote: And that's without countearguing the Santa lie isn't all that horrible or resentment inducing for children finding out eventually. Is this what happened to you? Did some of you get Santa black plilled at some point? My beef with The Big (Santa) Lie isn't intense so much as "conclusive". My 3 year old daughter still totally loves the general fantasy and lore of Christmas/Santa even though she understands Santa isn't real. I feel like kids enjoy all sorts of other fantasy/pretend/characters even if they don't think they fly around the world or whatever. So there's just no incentive to go out of my way to lie to her. There's truly nothing lost when you tell them its similar to other stories we read but its still a neat little component of the Christmas experience. She still gets excited when she sees various Santa decorations or whatever. I'm not clutching pearls about the injustice of a mass coverup harming my daughter's psyche. It just feels like a pointless lie. Would rather not lie to her without an extremely good reason to. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On December 21 2024 09:20 Mohdoo wrote: My beef with The Big (Santa) Lie isn't intense so much as "conclusive". My 3 year old daughter still totally loves the general fantasy and lore of Christmas/Santa even though she understands Santa isn't real. I feel like kids enjoy all sorts of other fantasy/pretend/characters even if they don't think they fly around the world or whatever. So there's just no incentive to go out of my way to lie to her. There's truly nothing lost when you tell them its similar to other stories we read but its still a neat little component of the Christmas experience. She still gets excited when she sees various Santa decorations or whatever. I'm not clutching pearls about the injustice of a mass coverup harming my daughter's psyche. It just feels like a pointless lie. Would rather not lie to her without an extremely good reason to. Seems like a very fair take. Kids love fantasy stories and figures. Toy Story, Frozen. Power Rangers, Sailor Moon. Santa is basically in the same ballpark. Kids have a strong imagination and it's not dampened from knowing the truth. | ||
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Razyda
901 Posts
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