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United States24676 Posts
I'm honestly pretty disappointed in you all and this Santa debate, revealing to me that Santa isn't real.
Also, it looks like the government shutdown might be averted, Trump's/Elon's/Vance's demands omitted.
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On December 20 2024 03:31 WombaT wrote:For funsies Poll: Should Santa be abolished?No (13) 72% Yes (3) 17% Maintained, but in another form (2) 11% 18 total votes Your vote: Should Santa be abolished? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Maintained, but in another form
See this is exactly what I was looking for. My point was that Santa is a lie that we all socially agree is okay to spread to children. If you go up to kids and yell in their face that santa is a lie and you shouldn't base your moral system around the threat of not getting gifts or not, when your gifts have nothing to do with your moral behavior during the year, you're the bad guy. I have a problem with santa and would never lie to my kids about a mass surveillance state but a lot of conservatives seem to have no problem with it.
The same as you should trust the government in an emergency to do whatever it needs to do to act in your best interest. If people don't want to talk about santa anymore we can switch to "there is a dirt bomb in the sports stadium during a game". The government shouldn't be telling people there is a dirty bomb and they need to leave, they should tell people they need to evacuate the building for a fire or something that isn't an emergency so that people don't panic and everyone gets out quickly and safely.
On December 20 2024 06:32 Billyboy wrote:
What are the lies? Because the vast majority of the information was accurate to the knowledge at the time. All I can think of is that they said it was not a lab leak, when the truth was that it could be. Considering where it came from had no material difference, and they were going to look into deeper once everything was under control, I get where they were coming from. And there are a hell of a lot worse lies. Hell, a shit ton of companies have lied worse in their advertisement's or resisting recalls. It is a strange rewriting of history to act as though people were generally lied too. Well I mean they were, but they are for some reason not mad the people who kept claiming about the curing properties of shit like ivermectin.
In order to avoid the public panic buying masks and other ppe equipment the government (not trumps government the bad one guys) downplayed makes effectiveness. After they were able to secure supplies of ppe for the hospital network they then informed the public that masks were critical and everyone should be wearing them.
Conservatives feel this is a deep betrayal of the people's ability to trust the government and one of the prime crimes of fauci that he should be prosecuted for.
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Northern Ireland25159 Posts
On December 21 2024 10:51 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2024 03:31 WombaT wrote:For funsies Poll: Should Santa be abolished?No (13) 72% Yes (3) 17% Maintained, but in another form (2) 11% 18 total votes Your vote: Should Santa be abolished? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Maintained, but in another form
See this is exactly what I was looking for. My point was that Santa is a lie that we all socially agree is okay to spread to children. If you go up to kids and yell in their face that santa is a lie and you shouldn't base your moral system around the threat of not getting gifts or not, when your gifts have nothing to do with your moral behavior during the year, you're the bad guy. I have a problem with santa and would never lie to my kids about a mass surveillance state but a lot of conservatives seem to have no problem with it. The same as you should trust the government in an emergency to do whatever it needs to do to act in your best interest. If people don't want to talk about santa anymore we can switch to "there is a dirt bomb in the sports stadium during a game". The government shouldn't be telling people there is a dirty bomb and they need to leave, they should tell people they need to evacuate the building for a fire or something that isn't an emergency so that people don't panic and everyone gets out quickly and safely. Show nested quote +On December 20 2024 06:32 Billyboy wrote:
What are the lies? Because the vast majority of the information was accurate to the knowledge at the time. All I can think of is that they said it was not a lab leak, when the truth was that it could be. Considering where it came from had no material difference, and they were going to look into deeper once everything was under control, I get where they were coming from. And there are a hell of a lot worse lies. Hell, a shit ton of companies have lied worse in their advertisement's or resisting recalls. It is a strange rewriting of history to act as though people were generally lied too. Well I mean they were, but they are for some reason not mad the people who kept claiming about the curing properties of shit like ivermectin. In order to avoid the public panic buying masks and other ppe equipment the government (not trumps government the bad one guys) downplayed makes effectiveness. After they were able to secure supplies of ppe for the hospital network they then informed the public that masks were critical and everyone should be wearing them. Conservatives feel this is a deep betrayal of the people's ability to trust the government and one of the prime crimes of fauci that he should be prosecuted for.
Yeah but many conservatives are full of shit so, there is that.
Demanding both 100% transparency and indeed at times prescience from governmental agencies during COVID while hand waving outright bollocks Trump was spewing at the time.
No wonder they like the idea of Santa Claus
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On December 21 2024 10:51 Sermokala wrote:
The same as you should trust the government in an emergency to do whatever it needs to do to act in your best interest.
You belong, to quote Napoleon XIV:
"To the funny farm
Where life is beautiful all the time"
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On December 21 2024 11:05 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2024 10:51 Sermokala wrote:
The same as you should trust the government in an emergency to do whatever it needs to do to act in your best interest. You belong, to quote Napoleon XIV: "To the funny farm Where life is beautiful all the time"
I'm sure you think its hilarious to tell other people that they have mental health issues and should be committed to an institution but those were really shitty places even before they were replaced by jails.
Do you have anything to contribute or should we expect this to be the best you can provide?
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On December 21 2024 11:13 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2024 11:05 Razyda wrote:On December 21 2024 10:51 Sermokala wrote:
The same as you should trust the government in an emergency to do whatever it needs to do to act in your best interest. You belong, to quote Napoleon XIV: "To the funny farm Where life is beautiful all the time" I'm sure you think its hilarious to tell other people that they have mental health issues and should be committed to an institution but those were really shitty places even before they were replaced by jails. Do you have anything to contribute or should we expect this to be the best you can provide?
No my dude, I don't think it's hilarious, I find it rather sad. To be brutally honest with you though, I think you are the prime example of someone who needs help. Like a lot.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On December 21 2024 11:01 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2024 10:51 Sermokala wrote:On December 20 2024 03:31 WombaT wrote:For funsies Poll: Should Santa be abolished?No (13) 72% Yes (3) 17% Maintained, but in another form (2) 11% 18 total votes Your vote: Should Santa be abolished? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Maintained, but in another form
See this is exactly what I was looking for. My point was that Santa is a lie that we all socially agree is okay to spread to children. If you go up to kids and yell in their face that santa is a lie and you shouldn't base your moral system around the threat of not getting gifts or not, when your gifts have nothing to do with your moral behavior during the year, you're the bad guy. I have a problem with santa and would never lie to my kids about a mass surveillance state but a lot of conservatives seem to have no problem with it. The same as you should trust the government in an emergency to do whatever it needs to do to act in your best interest. If people don't want to talk about santa anymore we can switch to "there is a dirt bomb in the sports stadium during a game". The government shouldn't be telling people there is a dirty bomb and they need to leave, they should tell people they need to evacuate the building for a fire or something that isn't an emergency so that people don't panic and everyone gets out quickly and safely. On December 20 2024 06:32 Billyboy wrote:
What are the lies? Because the vast majority of the information was accurate to the knowledge at the time. All I can think of is that they said it was not a lab leak, when the truth was that it could be. Considering where it came from had no material difference, and they were going to look into deeper once everything was under control, I get where they were coming from. And there are a hell of a lot worse lies. Hell, a shit ton of companies have lied worse in their advertisement's or resisting recalls. It is a strange rewriting of history to act as though people were generally lied too. Well I mean they were, but they are for some reason not mad the people who kept claiming about the curing properties of shit like ivermectin. In order to avoid the public panic buying masks and other ppe equipment the government (not trumps government the bad one guys) downplayed makes effectiveness. After they were able to secure supplies of ppe for the hospital network they then informed the public that masks were critical and everyone should be wearing them. Conservatives feel this is a deep betrayal of the people's ability to trust the government and one of the prime crimes of fauci that he should be prosecuted for. Yeah but many conservatives are full of shit so, there is that. Demanding both 100% transparency and indeed at times prescience from governmental agencies during COVID while hand waving outright bollocks Trump was spewing at the time. No wonder they like the idea of Santa Claus
Demanding everyone to “trust the experts” immediately after giving them the green light to lie is what’s bollocks. At the very least they shouldn’t scratch their head and wonder why there is so much skepticism.
In another discussion about the UK riots you were angry that misinformation was causing the riots and essentially said that if the truth led to riots then such is life. Sermokala has the opposite believe systems. He would believe that if the truth leads to riots then we should dismissing it as disinformation anyway and that way we will have no riots. In the COVID thread he defending dismissing the lab origin theory because it caused anti-Asian hate crimes. He would happily have the
Ministry of Truth lie to us if “it’s for our own good.” It’s insane.
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Santa Claus is part of the massive wave of Canadians heading south.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadians-moving-to-the-us-hits-10-year-high-1.7218479
You'll notice Santa Claus wears the Canadian hockey team colours. So that pretty much proves he is Canadian.
There's nothing new about Canadians moving south of the 49th parallel for love, work or warmer weather, but the latest figures from the American Community Survey (ACS) suggest it's now happening at a much higher rate than the historical average.
"People grumble about Trudeau and they're not happy with him, but it's not a driving factor for my clients. I see a huge influx of Canadians moving to the U.S. and the main thing is just the cost of housing. It's a lot of young couples."
before we got married my wife bought her own house 45 minutes from Washington DC for $199,000 with a 1.99% mortgage rate. Something like was never possible in Canada.
In any event, its nice to see the Fed cut rates again. I wonder if a common mortgage shopper will ever get 1.99% again?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2024/12/18/fed-rate-cut-rates-slowdown-2025/77047771007/
The economy, meanwhile, grew at a healthy 2.8% annual rate in the third quarter and is projected to expand 3.1% in the current quarter, according to the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta’s forecast. A retail sales report this week underscored that consumer spending is still robust despite strains on lower-income households.
And job growth has bounced back from hurricanes and worker strikes that depressed payrolls in early fall, with 227,000 payroll gains in November.
This is all nice to see.
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On December 21 2024 15:38 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Santa Claus is part of the massive wave of Canadians heading south. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadians-moving-to-the-us-hits-10-year-high-1.7218479You'll notice Santa Claus wears the Canadian hockey team colours. So that pretty much proves he is Canadian. Show nested quote +There's nothing new about Canadians moving south of the 49th parallel for love, work or warmer weather, but the latest figures from the American Community Survey (ACS) suggest it's now happening at a much higher rate than the historical average. Show nested quote +"People grumble about Trudeau and they're not happy with him, but it's not a driving factor for my clients. I see a huge influx of Canadians moving to the U.S. and the main thing is just the cost of housing. It's a lot of young couples." before we got married my wife bought her own house 45 minutes from Washington DC for $199,000 with a 1.99% mortgage rate. Something like was never possible in Canada. In any event, its nice to see the Fed cut rates again. I wonder if a common mortgage shopper will ever get 1.99% again? https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2024/12/18/fed-rate-cut-rates-slowdown-2025/77047771007/Show nested quote +The economy, meanwhile, grew at a healthy 2.8% annual rate in the third quarter and is projected to expand 3.1% in the current quarter, according to the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta’s forecast. A retail sales report this week underscored that consumer spending is still robust despite strains on lower-income households.
And job growth has bounced back from hurricanes and worker strikes that depressed payrolls in early fall, with 227,000 payroll gains in November. This is all nice to see.
I guess the Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer aspect of the Santa canon was added after 1935, when the first and only reindeer colony was introduced to Canada.
It was all a plot to get over the border, Given Santa's difficulty getting a visa. How do you stop a guy with flying reindeer getting over the border? Not even a ridiculously high tech, unassailable security feature like a wall could stop him.
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On December 21 2024 16:14 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2024 15:38 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Santa Claus is part of the massive wave of Canadians heading south. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadians-moving-to-the-us-hits-10-year-high-1.7218479You'll notice Santa Claus wears the Canadian hockey team colours. So that pretty much proves he is Canadian. There's nothing new about Canadians moving south of the 49th parallel for love, work or warmer weather, but the latest figures from the American Community Survey (ACS) suggest it's now happening at a much higher rate than the historical average. "People grumble about Trudeau and they're not happy with him, but it's not a driving factor for my clients. I see a huge influx of Canadians moving to the U.S. and the main thing is just the cost of housing. It's a lot of young couples." before we got married my wife bought her own house 45 minutes from Washington DC for $199,000 with a 1.99% mortgage rate. Something like was never possible in Canada. In any event, its nice to see the Fed cut rates again. I wonder if a common mortgage shopper will ever get 1.99% again? https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2024/12/18/fed-rate-cut-rates-slowdown-2025/77047771007/The economy, meanwhile, grew at a healthy 2.8% annual rate in the third quarter and is projected to expand 3.1% in the current quarter, according to the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta’s forecast. A retail sales report this week underscored that consumer spending is still robust despite strains on lower-income households.
And job growth has bounced back from hurricanes and worker strikes that depressed payrolls in early fall, with 227,000 payroll gains in November. This is all nice to see. I guess the Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer aspect of the Santa canon was added after 1935, when the first and only reindeer colony was introduced to Canada. It was all a plot to get over the border, Given Santa's difficulty getting a visa. How do you stop a guy with flying reindeer getting over the border? Not even a ridiculously high tech, unassailable security feature like a wall could stop him.
The Nightmare Before Christmas had some ideas about putting a stop to a rogue Santa
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On December 21 2024 14:31 BlackJack wrote: Sermokala has the opposite believe systems. He would believe that if the truth leads to riots then we should dismissing it as disinformation anyway and that way we will have no riots. In the COVID thread he defending dismissing the lab origin theory because it caused anti-Asian hate crimes. He would happily have the
Ministry of Truth lie to us if “it’s for our own good.” It’s insane.
And that is exactly the same as telling a child that Santa Claus is real, obviously 
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On December 21 2024 17:55 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2024 16:14 Jockmcplop wrote:On December 21 2024 15:38 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Santa Claus is part of the massive wave of Canadians heading south. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadians-moving-to-the-us-hits-10-year-high-1.7218479You'll notice Santa Claus wears the Canadian hockey team colours. So that pretty much proves he is Canadian. There's nothing new about Canadians moving south of the 49th parallel for love, work or warmer weather, but the latest figures from the American Community Survey (ACS) suggest it's now happening at a much higher rate than the historical average. "People grumble about Trudeau and they're not happy with him, but it's not a driving factor for my clients. I see a huge influx of Canadians moving to the U.S. and the main thing is just the cost of housing. It's a lot of young couples." before we got married my wife bought her own house 45 minutes from Washington DC for $199,000 with a 1.99% mortgage rate. Something like was never possible in Canada. In any event, its nice to see the Fed cut rates again. I wonder if a common mortgage shopper will ever get 1.99% again? https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2024/12/18/fed-rate-cut-rates-slowdown-2025/77047771007/The economy, meanwhile, grew at a healthy 2.8% annual rate in the third quarter and is projected to expand 3.1% in the current quarter, according to the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta’s forecast. A retail sales report this week underscored that consumer spending is still robust despite strains on lower-income households.
And job growth has bounced back from hurricanes and worker strikes that depressed payrolls in early fall, with 227,000 payroll gains in November. This is all nice to see. I guess the Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer aspect of the Santa canon was added after 1935, when the first and only reindeer colony was introduced to Canada. It was all a plot to get over the border, Given Santa's difficulty getting a visa. How do you stop a guy with flying reindeer getting over the border? Not even a ridiculously high tech, unassailable security feature like a wall could stop him. The Nightmare Before Christmas had some ideas about putting a stop to a rogue Santa
One of my favorite Halloween movies, and one of my favorite Christmas movies.
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Northern Ireland25159 Posts
On December 21 2024 14:31 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2024 11:01 WombaT wrote:On December 21 2024 10:51 Sermokala wrote:On December 20 2024 03:31 WombaT wrote:For funsies Poll: Should Santa be abolished?No (13) 72% Yes (3) 17% Maintained, but in another form (2) 11% 18 total votes Your vote: Should Santa be abolished? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Maintained, but in another form
See this is exactly what I was looking for. My point was that Santa is a lie that we all socially agree is okay to spread to children. If you go up to kids and yell in their face that santa is a lie and you shouldn't base your moral system around the threat of not getting gifts or not, when your gifts have nothing to do with your moral behavior during the year, you're the bad guy. I have a problem with santa and would never lie to my kids about a mass surveillance state but a lot of conservatives seem to have no problem with it. The same as you should trust the government in an emergency to do whatever it needs to do to act in your best interest. If people don't want to talk about santa anymore we can switch to "there is a dirt bomb in the sports stadium during a game". The government shouldn't be telling people there is a dirty bomb and they need to leave, they should tell people they need to evacuate the building for a fire or something that isn't an emergency so that people don't panic and everyone gets out quickly and safely. On December 20 2024 06:32 Billyboy wrote:
What are the lies? Because the vast majority of the information was accurate to the knowledge at the time. All I can think of is that they said it was not a lab leak, when the truth was that it could be. Considering where it came from had no material difference, and they were going to look into deeper once everything was under control, I get where they were coming from. And there are a hell of a lot worse lies. Hell, a shit ton of companies have lied worse in their advertisement's or resisting recalls. It is a strange rewriting of history to act as though people were generally lied too. Well I mean they were, but they are for some reason not mad the people who kept claiming about the curing properties of shit like ivermectin. In order to avoid the public panic buying masks and other ppe equipment the government (not trumps government the bad one guys) downplayed makes effectiveness. After they were able to secure supplies of ppe for the hospital network they then informed the public that masks were critical and everyone should be wearing them. Conservatives feel this is a deep betrayal of the people's ability to trust the government and one of the prime crimes of fauci that he should be prosecuted for. Yeah but many conservatives are full of shit so, there is that. Demanding both 100% transparency and indeed at times prescience from governmental agencies during COVID while hand waving outright bollocks Trump was spewing at the time. No wonder they like the idea of Santa Claus Demanding everyone to “trust the experts” immediately after giving them the green light to lie is what’s bollocks. At the very least they shouldn’t scratch their head and wonder why there is so much skepticism. In another discussion about the UK riots you were angry that misinformation was causing the riots and essentially said that if the truth led to riots then such is life. Sermokala has the opposite believe systems. He would believe that if the truth leads to riots then we should dismissing it as disinformation anyway and that way we will have no riots. In the COVID thread he defending dismissing the lab origin theory because it caused anti-Asian hate crimes. He would happily have the Ministry of Truth lie to us if “it’s for our own good.” It’s insane.
My issue is less COVID skepticism in some quarters, but rather a lack of it.
‘It’s literally 1984’ repeated every time for me isn’t especially skeptical. It precludes possibilities such as agencies may be acting earnestly and just not have a 100% hit rate in making correct calls. Or that a lie may be white and at least well-intended.
From memory your position(s) was more couched in the latter, I’ve not really got an issue with ‘Yeah I understand Fauci was trying to avoid panic buying and hoarding, I still think he ultimately was wrong to lie.’ There’s a certain weighing of A versus B and C, which actual skepticism does require.
Can’t speak to Serm as their views are theirs and mine are mine. I’d generally err on the side of ‘is it true?’ and be rather permissive there.
I’d be more critical if the wider society, culture and structures had some kind of generally unwavering Kantian approach to truth. But we’ll elect proven bullshitters, jail or blacklist whistleblowers depending on if they’re blowing on security or corporates, and our media culture is absolutely permeated by bullshit.
Within that context I can’t say I find a Fauci to be particularly egregious overall.
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Fauci did lie when he said there's no reason to be walking around with a face mask. It was strictly incorrect to say that. It would've been correct to say a mask shortage for health care workers had to be prevented.
The dilemma Fauci faced was that telling people the latter would more likely lead to a shortage for health care workers than telling them the masks were unneeded. Or at least that's what he probably thought.
Did he mess up? Certainly. He forgot to consider that a lie erodes trust, and that trust can never be replaced no matter how well intentioned the lie was. So he made both a strategic mistake and an ethical mistake at the same time.
I think Fauci should've understood that people are selfish aholes who will panic buy no matter what you tell them. People do what they do. They're aholes.
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On December 21 2024 10:51 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2024 03:31 WombaT wrote:For funsies Poll: Should Santa be abolished?No (13) 72% Yes (3) 17% Maintained, but in another form (2) 11% 18 total votes Your vote: Should Santa be abolished? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Maintained, but in another form
See this is exactly what I was looking for. My point was that Santa is a lie that we all socially agree is okay to spread to children. If you go up to kids and yell in their face that santa is a lie and you shouldn't base your moral system around the threat of not getting gifts or not, when your gifts have nothing to do with your moral behavior during the year, you're the bad guy. I have a problem with santa and would never lie to my kids about a mass surveillance state but a lot of conservatives seem to have no problem with it. The same as you should trust the government in an emergency to do whatever it needs to do to act in your best interest. If people don't want to talk about santa anymore we can switch to "there is a dirt bomb in the sports stadium during a game". The government shouldn't be telling people there is a dirty bomb and they need to leave, they should tell people they need to evacuate the building for a fire or something that isn't an emergency so that people don't panic and everyone gets out quickly and safely. Show nested quote +On December 20 2024 06:32 Billyboy wrote:
What are the lies? Because the vast majority of the information was accurate to the knowledge at the time. All I can think of is that they said it was not a lab leak, when the truth was that it could be. Considering where it came from had no material difference, and they were going to look into deeper once everything was under control, I get where they were coming from. And there are a hell of a lot worse lies. Hell, a shit ton of companies have lied worse in their advertisement's or resisting recalls. It is a strange rewriting of history to act as though people were generally lied too. Well I mean they were, but they are for some reason not mad the people who kept claiming about the curing properties of shit like ivermectin. In order to avoid the public panic buying masks and other ppe equipment the government (not trumps government the bad one guys) downplayed makes effectiveness. After they were able to secure supplies of ppe for the hospital network they then informed the public that masks were critical and everyone should be wearing them. Conservatives feel this is a deep betrayal of the people's ability to trust the government and one of the prime crimes of fauci that he should be prosecuted for.
I guess that tracks, just super strange for them to be mad at that when they are still listening and trusting people who are still lying about the effectiveness of masks. Especially when Fauci did it for public good (I mean look how people were with toilet paper FFS) and the ones that they like are doing it for personal profit.
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On December 21 2024 19:53 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2024 14:31 BlackJack wrote:On December 21 2024 11:01 WombaT wrote:On December 21 2024 10:51 Sermokala wrote:On December 20 2024 03:31 WombaT wrote:For funsies Poll: Should Santa be abolished?No (13) 72% Yes (3) 17% Maintained, but in another form (2) 11% 18 total votes Your vote: Should Santa be abolished? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Maintained, but in another form
See this is exactly what I was looking for. My point was that Santa is a lie that we all socially agree is okay to spread to children. If you go up to kids and yell in their face that santa is a lie and you shouldn't base your moral system around the threat of not getting gifts or not, when your gifts have nothing to do with your moral behavior during the year, you're the bad guy. I have a problem with santa and would never lie to my kids about a mass surveillance state but a lot of conservatives seem to have no problem with it. The same as you should trust the government in an emergency to do whatever it needs to do to act in your best interest. If people don't want to talk about santa anymore we can switch to "there is a dirt bomb in the sports stadium during a game". The government shouldn't be telling people there is a dirty bomb and they need to leave, they should tell people they need to evacuate the building for a fire or something that isn't an emergency so that people don't panic and everyone gets out quickly and safely. On December 20 2024 06:32 Billyboy wrote:
What are the lies? Because the vast majority of the information was accurate to the knowledge at the time. All I can think of is that they said it was not a lab leak, when the truth was that it could be. Considering where it came from had no material difference, and they were going to look into deeper once everything was under control, I get where they were coming from. And there are a hell of a lot worse lies. Hell, a shit ton of companies have lied worse in their advertisement's or resisting recalls. It is a strange rewriting of history to act as though people were generally lied too. Well I mean they were, but they are for some reason not mad the people who kept claiming about the curing properties of shit like ivermectin. In order to avoid the public panic buying masks and other ppe equipment the government (not trumps government the bad one guys) downplayed makes effectiveness. After they were able to secure supplies of ppe for the hospital network they then informed the public that masks were critical and everyone should be wearing them. Conservatives feel this is a deep betrayal of the people's ability to trust the government and one of the prime crimes of fauci that he should be prosecuted for. Yeah but many conservatives are full of shit so, there is that. Demanding both 100% transparency and indeed at times prescience from governmental agencies during COVID while hand waving outright bollocks Trump was spewing at the time. No wonder they like the idea of Santa Claus Demanding everyone to “trust the experts” immediately after giving them the green light to lie is what’s bollocks. At the very least they shouldn’t scratch their head and wonder why there is so much skepticism. In another discussion about the UK riots you were angry that misinformation was causing the riots and essentially said that if the truth led to riots then such is life. Sermokala has the opposite believe systems. He would believe that if the truth leads to riots then we should dismissing it as disinformation anyway and that way we will have no riots. In the COVID thread he defending dismissing the lab origin theory because it caused anti-Asian hate crimes. He would happily have the Ministry of Truth lie to us if “it’s for our own good.” It’s insane. My issue is less COVID skepticism in some quarters, but rather a lack of it. ‘It’s literally 1984’ repeated every time for me isn’t especially skeptical. It precludes possibilities such as agencies may be acting earnestly and just not have a 100% hit rate in making correct calls. Or that a lie may be white and at least well-intended. From memory your position(s) was more couched in the latter, I’ve not really got an issue with ‘Yeah I understand Fauci was trying to avoid panic buying and hoarding, I still think he ultimately was wrong to lie.’ There’s a certain weighing of A versus B and C, which actual skepticism does require. Can’t speak to Serm as their views are theirs and mine are mine. I’d generally err on the side of ‘is it true?’ and be rather permissive there. I’d be more critical if the wider society, culture and structures had some kind of generally unwavering Kantian approach to truth. But we’ll elect proven bullshitters, jail or blacklist whistleblowers depending on if they’re blowing on security or corporates, and our media culture is absolutely permeated by bullshit. Within that context I can’t say I find a Fauci to be particularly egregious overall.
The problem with the "But Trump tells a lot of bollocks too..." point is that I'm not sitting here saying you should blindly trust Trump
It's just ridiculous to phrase the mask lie as serving your best interest. Your best interest would be to equip yourself with a high quality mask. Foregoing a mask and catching COVID is not in your best interest. It's literally against your interest and serves a sort of communal interest where we prioritize masks to front line workers. Those frontline workers of course got COVID anyway and I know this because basically everyone has had COVID. So it wasn't even that worthwhile of a lie. Imagine blowing all your trust capital on such a stupid reason.
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Northern Ireland25159 Posts
On December 22 2024 04:43 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2024 19:53 WombaT wrote:On December 21 2024 14:31 BlackJack wrote:On December 21 2024 11:01 WombaT wrote:On December 21 2024 10:51 Sermokala wrote:On December 20 2024 03:31 WombaT wrote:For funsies Poll: Should Santa be abolished?No (13) 72% Yes (3) 17% Maintained, but in another form (2) 11% 18 total votes Your vote: Should Santa be abolished? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Maintained, but in another form
See this is exactly what I was looking for. My point was that Santa is a lie that we all socially agree is okay to spread to children. If you go up to kids and yell in their face that santa is a lie and you shouldn't base your moral system around the threat of not getting gifts or not, when your gifts have nothing to do with your moral behavior during the year, you're the bad guy. I have a problem with santa and would never lie to my kids about a mass surveillance state but a lot of conservatives seem to have no problem with it. The same as you should trust the government in an emergency to do whatever it needs to do to act in your best interest. If people don't want to talk about santa anymore we can switch to "there is a dirt bomb in the sports stadium during a game". The government shouldn't be telling people there is a dirty bomb and they need to leave, they should tell people they need to evacuate the building for a fire or something that isn't an emergency so that people don't panic and everyone gets out quickly and safely. On December 20 2024 06:32 Billyboy wrote:
What are the lies? Because the vast majority of the information was accurate to the knowledge at the time. All I can think of is that they said it was not a lab leak, when the truth was that it could be. Considering where it came from had no material difference, and they were going to look into deeper once everything was under control, I get where they were coming from. And there are a hell of a lot worse lies. Hell, a shit ton of companies have lied worse in their advertisement's or resisting recalls. It is a strange rewriting of history to act as though people were generally lied too. Well I mean they were, but they are for some reason not mad the people who kept claiming about the curing properties of shit like ivermectin. In order to avoid the public panic buying masks and other ppe equipment the government (not trumps government the bad one guys) downplayed makes effectiveness. After they were able to secure supplies of ppe for the hospital network they then informed the public that masks were critical and everyone should be wearing them. Conservatives feel this is a deep betrayal of the people's ability to trust the government and one of the prime crimes of fauci that he should be prosecuted for. Yeah but many conservatives are full of shit so, there is that. Demanding both 100% transparency and indeed at times prescience from governmental agencies during COVID while hand waving outright bollocks Trump was spewing at the time. No wonder they like the idea of Santa Claus Demanding everyone to “trust the experts” immediately after giving them the green light to lie is what’s bollocks. At the very least they shouldn’t scratch their head and wonder why there is so much skepticism. In another discussion about the UK riots you were angry that misinformation was causing the riots and essentially said that if the truth led to riots then such is life. Sermokala has the opposite believe systems. He would believe that if the truth leads to riots then we should dismissing it as disinformation anyway and that way we will have no riots. In the COVID thread he defending dismissing the lab origin theory because it caused anti-Asian hate crimes. He would happily have the Ministry of Truth lie to us if “it’s for our own good.” It’s insane. My issue is less COVID skepticism in some quarters, but rather a lack of it. ‘It’s literally 1984’ repeated every time for me isn’t especially skeptical. It precludes possibilities such as agencies may be acting earnestly and just not have a 100% hit rate in making correct calls. Or that a lie may be white and at least well-intended. From memory your position(s) was more couched in the latter, I’ve not really got an issue with ‘Yeah I understand Fauci was trying to avoid panic buying and hoarding, I still think he ultimately was wrong to lie.’ There’s a certain weighing of A versus B and C, which actual skepticism does require. Can’t speak to Serm as their views are theirs and mine are mine. I’d generally err on the side of ‘is it true?’ and be rather permissive there. I’d be more critical if the wider society, culture and structures had some kind of generally unwavering Kantian approach to truth. But we’ll elect proven bullshitters, jail or blacklist whistleblowers depending on if they’re blowing on security or corporates, and our media culture is absolutely permeated by bullshit. Within that context I can’t say I find a Fauci to be particularly egregious overall. The problem with the "But Trump tells a lot of bollocks too..." point is that I'm not sitting here saying you should blindly trust Trump
Which is why I initially lead with ‘Yeah but many conservatives are full of shit so, there is that’. As opposed to ‘Blackjack is full of shit’.
There is an argument that arms of the state should be held to a higher standard of veracity given the power they can wield, and I agree there.
It just falls down if one gives the likes of Donald Trump rope, or thinks whistleblowers deserve punishment. Those views don’t co-exist especially neatly with a hardline ‘the truth is more important than pragmatism’ approach to someone like Fauci.
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This is a justification for a lack of trust rather than a cause. If getting covid info wrong ended trust no one would trust the Donald.
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What irks me is that people compared Fauci to the worst of liars. No, he told one crucial lie and he made mistakes under extreme pressure during an unprecedented crisis with very little useful information to work with. He's a high-profile person who made bad mistakes, not a villain who was scheming against Americans. He cared about people, but he failed to live up to people's expectations. There was nothing nefarious about his intent. He just fucked up in a very normal human way by trying to make a strategically good decision that ended up being strategically bad. He learned an important lesson too late.
Furthermore he made every attempt to correct course. He didn't pretend he's perfect, he learned from mistakes made. That's commendable.
Imagine RFK in Fauci's shoes. What an absolute shit show that would've been. There wouldn't have been any learning whatsoever, just blunder after blunder.
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On December 22 2024 05:00 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2024 04:43 BlackJack wrote:On December 21 2024 19:53 WombaT wrote:On December 21 2024 14:31 BlackJack wrote:On December 21 2024 11:01 WombaT wrote:On December 21 2024 10:51 Sermokala wrote:On December 20 2024 03:31 WombaT wrote:For funsies Poll: Should Santa be abolished?No (13) 72% Yes (3) 17% Maintained, but in another form (2) 11% 18 total votes Your vote: Should Santa be abolished? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Maintained, but in another form
See this is exactly what I was looking for. My point was that Santa is a lie that we all socially agree is okay to spread to children. If you go up to kids and yell in their face that santa is a lie and you shouldn't base your moral system around the threat of not getting gifts or not, when your gifts have nothing to do with your moral behavior during the year, you're the bad guy. I have a problem with santa and would never lie to my kids about a mass surveillance state but a lot of conservatives seem to have no problem with it. The same as you should trust the government in an emergency to do whatever it needs to do to act in your best interest. If people don't want to talk about santa anymore we can switch to "there is a dirt bomb in the sports stadium during a game". The government shouldn't be telling people there is a dirty bomb and they need to leave, they should tell people they need to evacuate the building for a fire or something that isn't an emergency so that people don't panic and everyone gets out quickly and safely. On December 20 2024 06:32 Billyboy wrote:
What are the lies? Because the vast majority of the information was accurate to the knowledge at the time. All I can think of is that they said it was not a lab leak, when the truth was that it could be. Considering where it came from had no material difference, and they were going to look into deeper once everything was under control, I get where they were coming from. And there are a hell of a lot worse lies. Hell, a shit ton of companies have lied worse in their advertisement's or resisting recalls. It is a strange rewriting of history to act as though people were generally lied too. Well I mean they were, but they are for some reason not mad the people who kept claiming about the curing properties of shit like ivermectin. In order to avoid the public panic buying masks and other ppe equipment the government (not trumps government the bad one guys) downplayed makes effectiveness. After they were able to secure supplies of ppe for the hospital network they then informed the public that masks were critical and everyone should be wearing them. Conservatives feel this is a deep betrayal of the people's ability to trust the government and one of the prime crimes of fauci that he should be prosecuted for. Yeah but many conservatives are full of shit so, there is that. Demanding both 100% transparency and indeed at times prescience from governmental agencies during COVID while hand waving outright bollocks Trump was spewing at the time. No wonder they like the idea of Santa Claus Demanding everyone to “trust the experts” immediately after giving them the green light to lie is what’s bollocks. At the very least they shouldn’t scratch their head and wonder why there is so much skepticism. In another discussion about the UK riots you were angry that misinformation was causing the riots and essentially said that if the truth led to riots then such is life. Sermokala has the opposite believe systems. He would believe that if the truth leads to riots then we should dismissing it as disinformation anyway and that way we will have no riots. In the COVID thread he defending dismissing the lab origin theory because it caused anti-Asian hate crimes. He would happily have the Ministry of Truth lie to us if “it’s for our own good.” It’s insane. My issue is less COVID skepticism in some quarters, but rather a lack of it. ‘It’s literally 1984’ repeated every time for me isn’t especially skeptical. It precludes possibilities such as agencies may be acting earnestly and just not have a 100% hit rate in making correct calls. Or that a lie may be white and at least well-intended. From memory your position(s) was more couched in the latter, I’ve not really got an issue with ‘Yeah I understand Fauci was trying to avoid panic buying and hoarding, I still think he ultimately was wrong to lie.’ There’s a certain weighing of A versus B and C, which actual skepticism does require. Can’t speak to Serm as their views are theirs and mine are mine. I’d generally err on the side of ‘is it true?’ and be rather permissive there. I’d be more critical if the wider society, culture and structures had some kind of generally unwavering Kantian approach to truth. But we’ll elect proven bullshitters, jail or blacklist whistleblowers depending on if they’re blowing on security or corporates, and our media culture is absolutely permeated by bullshit. Within that context I can’t say I find a Fauci to be particularly egregious overall. The problem with the "But Trump tells a lot of bollocks too..." point is that I'm not sitting here saying you should blindly trust Trump Which is why I initially lead with ‘Yeah but many conservatives are full of shit so, there is that’. As opposed to ‘Blackjack is full of shit’. There is an argument that arms of the state should be held to a higher standard of veracity given the power they can wield, and I agree there. It just falls down if one gives the likes of Donald Trump rope, or thinks whistleblowers deserve punishment. Those views don’t co-exist especially neatly with a hardline ‘the truth is more important than pragmatism’ approach to someone like Fauci.
Should this unnamed legion of conservatives trust Trump a whole lot less given his track record? Sure. I don't know how this relates to Trump. But then again I don't know how any of this relates to Santa Claus either, so fair play.
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EPT
