EPTI still dont see what appreciable difference it would have made. Others have pointed out the opposite, basically all the negative impacts if you make these accusations and are wrong.
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Sadist
United States7296 Posts
I still dont see what appreciable difference it would have made. Others have pointed out the opposite, basically all the negative impacts if you make these accusations and are wrong. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17133 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On December 22 2024 22:05 Sadist wrote: What safety measures? Do you mean before it spread outside of Wuhan? That wouldve been great but by the time everything ended up in the media it was already spreading globally. I still dont see what appreciable difference it would have made. Others have pointed out the opposite, basically all the negative impacts if you make these accusations and are wrong. Future safety measures, not prior. For example other countries can refuse to fund and work with various labs in China unless they allow complete inspections for safety standards. This gives China an incentive to actually improve safety. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26221 Posts
On December 22 2024 22:19 JimmyJRaynor wrote: The orthodoxy of "Conservative Inc" is going to destroy Candace Owens for interviewing Bart Sibrel. Though Rogan successfully dodged "Conservative Inc" after his Sibrel interview. I think Ms. Owens will get smeared. What do you mean by this, I don’t personally quite the references. On December 22 2024 23:23 Magic Powers wrote: Future safety measures, not prior. For example other countries can refuse to fund and work with various labs in China unless they allow complete inspections for safety standards. This gives China an incentive to actually improve safety. It’s hardly as if the rest of the world exactly covered themselves in glory in that period. But aye I think at some point there’s got to be some sort of post-mortem, I’m just not sure it wouldn’t have been anything other than a shitshow attempting it in the nascent phases of the pandemic. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On December 22 2024 22:05 Sadist wrote: What safety measures? Do you mean before it spread outside of Wuhan? That wouldve been great but by the time everything ended up in the media it was already spreading globally. I still dont see what appreciable difference it would have made. Others have pointed out the opposite, basically all the negative impacts if you make these accusations and are wrong. In 2018 EcoHealth had a research proposal to engineer bat coronaviruses with a human-specific cleavage site that would make them more easily transmissible to humans. The researchers initially boasted that there proposal would be cost-effective because it would be done in a biosafety lab level 2 instead of a BSL level 4 “The BSL-2 nature of work on SARSr-CoVs makes our system highly cost-effective relative to other bat-virus systems ( e.g. Ebola, Marburg, Hendra, Nipah), which require BSL-4 level facilities for cell culture. But the proposal, which was never approved, was later edited because they concluded that U.S. researchers would "freak out" over the idea of doing this in a BSL-2. I commented earlier that the lead author of the Proximal Origins paper considered some of the research being done in gain-of-function to be "completely nuts" for being done at lower level biosafety labs but he was afraid of being judged as a "crackpot" by his peers for not going along with it. In unredacted emails between Fauci and others at the NIH at the beginning of the pandemic the health experts hypothesized that serial passage of coronaviruses into genetically modified mice in an unsecured lab could have led to the emergence and release of SARS-COV-2. The director of the NIH, Dr. Francis Collins seems incredulous that such research would be conducted at a BSL-2. “Surely that wouldn’t be done in a BSL-2 lab?” wrote Collins, referring to biosafety level 2 labs, which do not have the most stringent safety protocols. The response was brief... “Wild West…” was Farrar’s response, an apparent reference to lab practices in China or possibly to the Wuhan Institute of Virology itself. In case anyone is unfamiliar with that American-centric reference, "Wild West" is characterized by a sort of "anything goes" lawlessness of the western American Frontier due to lack of oversight. It's literally the last way you would want to describe a research lab that could release dangerous pathogens into the world. So even the researchers involved in gain-of-function seem to think there are serious safety concerns in their own field. "Wild West.." and "completely nuts" and U.S. scientists would "freak out" over the "cost-effective" work being done. Yet the response here seems to be we couldn't be any less bothered by this. Let's not even talk about it lest we annoy China and then they won't manufacture masks for us. On the same website where people were so concerned with health and safety that they defended having to show vaccine papers to get a cheeseburger. Make it make sense. | ||
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Sadist
United States7296 Posts
What do you want to happen? How would you punish these people and/or china? How would it change how things end up? | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28724 Posts
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Sadist
United States7296 Posts
He should just come out and say what he means or wants instead of trying to be all cryptic. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On December 23 2024 04:42 Sadist wrote: BlackJack what do you want to happen? You are just stating things but not what you want to happen. No one will argue that there shouldnt be more safety and controls at these labs. What do you want to happen? How would you punish these people and/or china? How would it change how things end up? You can't shrug your shoulders and say well the genie is already out of the bottle so what's the difference and then also insist you want more safety and controls at these labs. If you wanted change in the safety you would be arguing for more scrutiny and more public outcry and instead you are seemingly offering apathy. How do you expect to get more safety if the "completely nuts" "wild west" dangerous research these people are acknowledging in their private emails is allowed to be swept under the rug? It's easy to hollowly declare you want more safety at the labs while being seemingly unbothered that the way for it to come about is quashed. | ||
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Fleetfeet
Canada2611 Posts
On December 23 2024 05:14 BlackJack wrote: You can't shrug your shoulders and say well the genie is already out of the bottle so what's the difference and then also insist you want more safety and controls at these labs. If you wanted change in the safety you would be arguing for more scrutiny and more public outcry and instead you are seemingly offering apathy. How do you expect to get more safety if the "completely nuts" "wild west" dangerous research these people are acknowledging in their private emails is allowed to be swept under the rug? It's easy to hollowly declare you want more safety at the labs while being seemingly unbothered that the way for it to come about is quashed. To this point, I don't think it's fair to ask BJ to explain what accountability would look like. BJ has stated he wants 'accountability' and getting the lad to specify what that looks like just invites headlines like "BJ wants Fauci ARRESTED" and "BJ hopes for WAR on CHINA?". Accountability seems like a reasonable ask - my pushback is that this is asking parents for accountability for lying about santa for years. You can ask all you want - your parents can choose not to be accountable to you. | ||
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Sadist
United States7296 Posts
I would guess China implemented corrective actions or improvements after covid independent if it truly was a leak or not. Every lab in the world and/or government should be doing this anyway. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43270 Posts
On December 23 2024 05:42 Sadist wrote: The topic of poor security at these labs was a topic way before Covid happened. I remember reading articles about how close we were IN THE US to having something similar happen with small pox. I would guess China implemented corrective actions or improvements after covid independent if it truly was a leak or not. Every lab in the world and/or government should be doing this anyway. That's not the only thing. Millions and millions of people have been labeled conspiracy theorists all around the world for this, starting from the POTUS at the time. If lab leak and then lying to the public is the correct answer to COVID, just brushing it away with "oh we learned THIS from this, and we will do better next time" is not enough. | ||
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Sadist
United States7296 Posts
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43270 Posts
I am saying getting to the bottom of this would be the most reasonable thing. To actually figure out what it is, since there is a lot of conflicting evidence against it not being a lab leak (which is a public opinion), what for instance BJ has posted. | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2670 Posts
On December 23 2024 05:14 BlackJack wrote: You can't shrug your shoulders and say well the genie is already out of the bottle so what's the difference and then also insist you want more safety and controls at these labs. If you wanted change in the safety you would be arguing for more scrutiny and more public outcry and instead you are seemingly offering apathy. How do you expect to get more safety if the "completely nuts" "wild west" dangerous research these people are acknowledging in their private emails is allowed to be swept under the rug? It's easy to hollowly declare you want more safety at the labs while being seemingly unbothered that the way for it to come about is quashed. Do you seriously think lab safety standards are for labs in China haven't changed? The Chinese goverment are notorious for coming down hard on entire industries that makes problems appear. You think they were pleased about a pandemic? The time for criticism was before covid. That was when criticism could have done some good. At this point any changes will have been made already been made. And the lab in question will be squeky clean regardless if it was the source or not. You live in a fantasy. You want things that would never have happened. And you want Fauci to have done pointless things that would have done massive harm at precisly the wrong time because you don't like him and you want him to have been wrong. You might say it's about principle, others would say it's just dumb. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On December 23 2024 06:32 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: Do you seriously think lab safety standards are for labs in China haven't changed? The Chinese goverment are notorious for coming down hard on entire industries that makes problems appear. You think they were pleased about a pandemic? The time for criticism was before covid. That was when criticism could have done some good. At this point any changes will have been made already been made. And the lab in question will be squeky clean regardless if it was the source or not. You live in a fantasy. You want things that would never have happened. And you want Fauci to have done pointless things that would have done massive harm at precisly the wrong time because you don't like him and you want him to have been wrong. You might say it's about principle, others would say it's just dumb. If a Monsanto factory potentially leaked a pollutant into the environment that killed a few people I doubt you would defend an attempted cover-up and a maligning of people as conspiracy theorists for talking about it. You wouldn't be easily satisfied as long as they improved the factory's safety. You wouldn't be okay if they lied under oath to Congress about what they were doing at the factory. I'm not sure why your approach in this instance is that there's no use crying over spilled milk and the important thing is not straining relations with China. We had a President mocking China, calling it the Kung-flu, and I'm expected to believe that simple agnosticism over COVID origins would have irreparably alienated China? We must immediately commission a paper to declare it improbable it came from the lab? I'm happy to settle on the last sentence of your post. I think it's about principle. You can think it's dumb. Agree to disagree. | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2670 Posts
On December 23 2024 07:21 BlackJack wrote: If a Monsanto factory potentially leaked a pollutant into the environment that killed a few people I doubt you would defend an attempted cover-up and a maligning of people as conspiracy theorists for talking about it. You wouldn't be easily satisfied as long as they improved the factory's safety. You wouldn't be okay if they lied under oath to Congress about what they were doing at the factory. I'm not sure why your approach in this instance is that there's no use crying over spilled milk and the important thing is not straining relations with China. We had a President mocking China, calling it the Kung-flu, and I'm expected to believe that simple agnosticism over COVID origins would have irreparably alienated China? We must immediately commission a paper to declare it improbable it came from the lab? I'm happy to settle on the last sentence of your post. I think it's about principle. You can think it's dumb. Agree to disagree. Your entire argument falls apart in the first sentence since a pollutant from a factory can't occur naturally. You don't know. Fauci doesn't know. The only people who potentially know are either telling you the truth or are sure as fuck aint saying anything. You will never know. You just want Fauci and by extension the democrats to be wrong and China to be the bad guy. You are pissed because someone in a political position chose to act diplomatically. Seriously, what do you want? A commission to see if it could have been a lab leak? China will present you with evidence that it wasn't one. You'll say you can't trust that evidence. Different experts will say different things but in general that it could have been but we can't know. Relations will be damaged, money will be spent. For what? Something we can conclude right now? Yeah, I'd call that dumb. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43270 Posts
China would never admit to anything like that anyways regardless of if it is "their lab fault" or not. So are you just accepting the outcome as it is now as "you can't never know for sure and China won't tell us for sure"? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26221 Posts
On December 23 2024 06:11 raynpelikoneet wrote: That's not the only thing. Millions and millions of people have been labeled conspiracy theorists all around the world for this, starting from the POTUS at the time. If lab leak and then lying to the public is the correct answer to COVID, just brushing it away with "oh we learned THIS from this, and we will do better next time" is not enough. Maybe millions of people should stop being conspiracy theorists if they dislike the tag so much. That said I did at the time say I had no issue with discussion of the Lab Leak theory, seemed plausible given various bits of circumstantial evidence, or at least eminently possible. But equally let’s not pretend that folks weren’t saying it was definitely a Chinese engineered bio weapon or things such as that, I don’t think it’s a stretch to label that as somewhat conspiratorial. Also a remarkable crossover between folks who claimed such things and folks who subsequently said COVID was no big deal thru to being completely fictitious. The amount of absolute bollocks people were spouting in those times was off the charts, I must say I don’t miss it. It genuinely annoyed me more than life under COVID restrictions. Although on the flip side there also certainly are people who do erroneously dismiss others as being conspiracy theorists, and that was massively in evidence at the time as well. Myself I at least try to be somewhat stringent in applying that label, and I think a fair few within these hallowed halls do so as well. | ||
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Billyboy
1329 Posts
On December 23 2024 04:50 Liquid`Drone wrote: I honestly think the main thing he wants to happen is for people to agree that lying to the public 'for the greater good' is a fucked principle and that the 'truth' should be pursued even if it's not politically expedient or whatnot. Haven't really ever seen BJ wishing for some type of punishment for anyone. That seems like a rational but extraordinarily naïve aim. And only rational if he holds it for everyone equally, which seems extremely unlikely. | ||
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