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On July 14 2018 01:38 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2018 01:31 xDaunt wrote:On July 14 2018 01:28 Plansix wrote:
I think Trump really wants to be buddies with Putin for some reason that we don't entirely know at this point. Because Trump's normal stance on diplomacy is "attack attack attack, claim everything is great". This isn't really accurate. Trump goes out of his way to be nice to leaders with whom he is trying to build a relationship from scratch. He wants a productive summit, so he's not going to lead it off with a big a "fuck you" to Putin. If we accept that international diplomacy runs on playground rules, I guess I could accept that. But that doesn't excuse Trump excusing the invasion of Ukraine and other things Russia in recent interviews. Other nations watch this coverage and don't see it as 5D chess. They see the President throwing Ukraine to the wolves to be buddy buddy with Putin. So I question how productive this summit is going to be, especially with how hard Trump got played by NK and the EU nations at the last summits.
I'm not sure why you're so quick to conclude that Trump got played by anyone. Let's see what happens.
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On July 14 2018 01:31 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2018 01:28 Plansix wrote:
I think Trump really wants to be buddies with Putin for some reason that we don't entirely know at this point. Because Trump's normal stance on diplomacy is "attack attack attack, claim everything is great". This isn't really accurate. Trump goes out of his way to be nice to leaders with whom he is trying to build a relationship from scratch. He wants a productive summit, so he's not going to lead it off with a big a "fuck you" to Putin.
What's wrong with a big fuck you to Putin given the evidence that he ordered an attack on our democratic process? Shit, that is more damaging to our country that if he literally attacked a base of ours and killed troops. Trump has basically said fuck you to our allies for doing far less. Now all of a sudden we should be ok with him being formal and mannered to an enemy? Especially hilarious after how rude he has been in Britain.
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On July 14 2018 01:40 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2018 01:36 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On July 14 2018 01:31 xDaunt wrote:On July 14 2018 01:28 Plansix wrote:
I think Trump really wants to be buddies with Putin for some reason that we don't entirely know at this point. Because Trump's normal stance on diplomacy is "attack attack attack, claim everything is great". This isn't really accurate. Trump goes out of his way to be nice to leaders with whom he is trying to build a relationship from scratch. He wants a productive summit, so he's not going to lead it off with a big a "fuck you" to Putin. He's gone out of his way to be nice to Putin in particular, KJU, and Xi. He's picked as many fights as possible with America's traditional allies, like Canada, Britain, Germany, etc. Now he's bitching about possibly leaving NATO. This doesn't concern you at all?? Not really. Like I said before, I don't really pay attention to what Trump says so much as I pay attention to the bottom line of what he's done. Rhetoric is Trump's tactic to get what he wants. Why y'all keep missing that obvious point is beyond me. Let's just take a look at the recent NATO summit as an example. Here's what the bloody New York Times wrote at the beginning of its editorial board statement today: Show nested quote +Now that the smoke has cleared from the NATO summit meeting, the most tangible result is apparent: President Trump advanced President Barack Obama’s initiative to keep the allies on track to shoulder a more equitable share of NATO’s costs. Mr. Trump even signed on to a tough statement directed at Russia. For once he saw eye to eye with his predecessor. Source. Seriously, all of y'all were acting like a bunch of rabid hyenas in here yesterday. You should be embarrassed.
We literally discussed this yesterday, you doop. They all praised Trump for keeping them on track with defense spending, while also not really doing anything more that what they already agreed to. They took a deal cut by Obama and told Trump it was his accomplishment and he ate it up. Just like you are right now. You folks are so easily played it is almost comical, but its mostly depressing.
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On July 14 2018 01:41 On_Slaught wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2018 01:31 xDaunt wrote:On July 14 2018 01:28 Plansix wrote:
I think Trump really wants to be buddies with Putin for some reason that we don't entirely know at this point. Because Trump's normal stance on diplomacy is "attack attack attack, claim everything is great". This isn't really accurate. Trump goes out of his way to be nice to leaders with whom he is trying to build a relationship from scratch. He wants a productive summit, so he's not going to lead it off with a big a "fuck you" to Putin. What's wrong with a big fuck you to Putin given the evidence that he ordered an attack on our democratic process? Shit, that is more damaging to our country that if he literally attacked a base of ours and killed troops. Trump has basically said fuck you to our allies for doing far less. Now all of a sudden we should be ok with him being formal and mannered to an enemy? Especially hilarious after how rude he has been in Britain.
You're going to law school and hope to be a lawyer right? You better learn something about negotiation and personal relationships. Sometimes it is strategically wise to hold your tongue (see Putin). Sometimes it is strategically wise to back over someone who is already politically dead for the sake of building relationships with the inevitable successors (see Theresa May).
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We also discussed how he was getting played by NK. They are literally expanding their nuclear capabilities while Trump tweets about how he made them a non-threat.
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On July 14 2018 01:44 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2018 01:41 On_Slaught wrote:On July 14 2018 01:31 xDaunt wrote:On July 14 2018 01:28 Plansix wrote:
I think Trump really wants to be buddies with Putin for some reason that we don't entirely know at this point. Because Trump's normal stance on diplomacy is "attack attack attack, claim everything is great". This isn't really accurate. Trump goes out of his way to be nice to leaders with whom he is trying to build a relationship from scratch. He wants a productive summit, so he's not going to lead it off with a big a "fuck you" to Putin. What's wrong with a big fuck you to Putin given the evidence that he ordered an attack on our democratic process? Shit, that is more damaging to our country that if he literally attacked a base of ours and killed troops. Trump has basically said fuck you to our allies for doing far less. Now all of a sudden we should be ok with him being formal and mannered to an enemy? Especially hilarious after how rude he has been in Britain. You're going to law school and hope to be a lawyer right? You better learn something about negotiation and personal relationships. Sometimes it is strategically wise to hold your tongue (see Putin). Sometimes it is strategically wise to back over someone who is already politically dead for the sake of building relationships with the inevitable successors (see Theresa May).
Ah, so you missed the part where he licked her boots apologising, accusing the Sun of all people to be fake news?
Right, right.
edit: for those who missed it btw and think i made Obama bit up
Q: How can you improve relations with Russia when they have illegally occupied another country?
Trump says that happened when Obama was president. He says he does not think Putin would have done that if Trump had been president. He says, if you look at what he has done, no other president has done so much. Crimea was an Obama disaster.
He literally said that.
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On July 14 2018 01:45 On_Slaught wrote:
We also discussed how he was getting played by NK. They are literally expanding their nuclear capabilities while Trump tweets about how he made them a non-threat.
Like I said, the North Korea issue isn't settled. It's going to take years to see how it's going to pan out. Trump hasn't really given up anything yet.
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On July 14 2018 01:46 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2018 01:44 xDaunt wrote:On July 14 2018 01:41 On_Slaught wrote:On July 14 2018 01:31 xDaunt wrote:On July 14 2018 01:28 Plansix wrote:
I think Trump really wants to be buddies with Putin for some reason that we don't entirely know at this point. Because Trump's normal stance on diplomacy is "attack attack attack, claim everything is great". This isn't really accurate. Trump goes out of his way to be nice to leaders with whom he is trying to build a relationship from scratch. He wants a productive summit, so he's not going to lead it off with a big a "fuck you" to Putin. What's wrong with a big fuck you to Putin given the evidence that he ordered an attack on our democratic process? Shit, that is more damaging to our country that if he literally attacked a base of ours and killed troops. Trump has basically said fuck you to our allies for doing far less. Now all of a sudden we should be ok with him being formal and mannered to an enemy? Especially hilarious after how rude he has been in Britain. You're going to law school and hope to be a lawyer right? You better learn something about negotiation and personal relationships. Sometimes it is strategically wise to hold your tongue (see Putin). Sometimes it is strategically wise to back over someone who is already politically dead for the sake of building relationships with the inevitable successors (see Theresa May). Ah, so you missed the part where he licked her boots apologising, accusing the Sun of all people to be fake news? Right, right.
No, I didn't miss that part. He wanted a good, civil press conference, hence the backpedaling and attacking the Sun.
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On July 14 2018 01:41 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2018 01:38 Plansix wrote:On July 14 2018 01:31 xDaunt wrote:On July 14 2018 01:28 Plansix wrote:
I think Trump really wants to be buddies with Putin for some reason that we don't entirely know at this point. Because Trump's normal stance on diplomacy is "attack attack attack, claim everything is great". This isn't really accurate. Trump goes out of his way to be nice to leaders with whom he is trying to build a relationship from scratch. He wants a productive summit, so he's not going to lead it off with a big a "fuck you" to Putin. If we accept that international diplomacy runs on playground rules, I guess I could accept that. But that doesn't excuse Trump excusing the invasion of Ukraine and other things Russia in recent interviews. Other nations watch this coverage and don't see it as 5D chess. They see the President throwing Ukraine to the wolves to be buddy buddy with Putin. So I question how productive this summit is going to be, especially with how hard Trump got played by NK and the EU nations at the last summits. I'm not sure why you're so quick to conclude that Trump got played by anyone. Let's see what happens.
You mean he didn't claim that NK had returned the return the remains US vets that died during the Korean war. Yet, not only had they not done that, but they stood up the US delegation that was set to meet with them to set up how it was going to happen. NK is now ignoring the US and pretending like the meeting wasn't real.
Endless experts said this was exactly what would happen with NK. Yet Trump went along with it and people cheered him on. NK got what it has wanted for 50 years and the US got nothing except a letter to Trump saying he is good. That is the text book example of getting played.
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On July 14 2018 01:44 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2018 01:41 On_Slaught wrote:On July 14 2018 01:31 xDaunt wrote:On July 14 2018 01:28 Plansix wrote:
I think Trump really wants to be buddies with Putin for some reason that we don't entirely know at this point. Because Trump's normal stance on diplomacy is "attack attack attack, claim everything is great". This isn't really accurate. Trump goes out of his way to be nice to leaders with whom he is trying to build a relationship from scratch. He wants a productive summit, so he's not going to lead it off with a big a "fuck you" to Putin. What's wrong with a big fuck you to Putin given the evidence that he ordered an attack on our democratic process? Shit, that is more damaging to our country that if he literally attacked a base of ours and killed troops. Trump has basically said fuck you to our allies for doing far less. Now all of a sudden we should be ok with him being formal and mannered to an enemy? Especially hilarious after how rude he has been in Britain. You're going to law school and hope to be a lawyer right? You better learn something about negotiation and personal relationships. Sometimes it is strategically wise to hold your tongue (see Putin). Sometimes it is strategically wise to back over someone who is already politically dead for the sake of building relationships with the inevitable successors (see Theresa May).
Fair enough. But this fails too address two things.
1. Where is this idea that we aren't still building a relationship with the UK coming from? Relationships are always evolving and this is especially relevant now since with Brexit we will need a new trade deal.
2. What does Russia have that we want? The world has not been destabilized by us not being all cozy with them. (This is a legit question... I'm not sure why we care about improving relations. As long as we aren't at war)
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On July 14 2018 01:48 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2018 01:46 m4ini wrote:On July 14 2018 01:44 xDaunt wrote:On July 14 2018 01:41 On_Slaught wrote:On July 14 2018 01:31 xDaunt wrote:On July 14 2018 01:28 Plansix wrote:
I think Trump really wants to be buddies with Putin for some reason that we don't entirely know at this point. Because Trump's normal stance on diplomacy is "attack attack attack, claim everything is great". This isn't really accurate. Trump goes out of his way to be nice to leaders with whom he is trying to build a relationship from scratch. He wants a productive summit, so he's not going to lead it off with a big a "fuck you" to Putin. What's wrong with a big fuck you to Putin given the evidence that he ordered an attack on our democratic process? Shit, that is more damaging to our country that if he literally attacked a base of ours and killed troops. Trump has basically said fuck you to our allies for doing far less. Now all of a sudden we should be ok with him being formal and mannered to an enemy? Especially hilarious after how rude he has been in Britain. You're going to law school and hope to be a lawyer right? You better learn something about negotiation and personal relationships. Sometimes it is strategically wise to hold your tongue (see Putin). Sometimes it is strategically wise to back over someone who is already politically dead for the sake of building relationships with the inevitable successors (see Theresa May). Ah, so you missed the part where he licked her boots apologising, accusing the Sun of all people to be fake news? Right, right. No, I didn't miss that part. He wanted a good, civil press conference, hence the backpedaling and attacking the Sun.
Ah, okay.
So let me get this straight.
This:
Sometimes it is strategically wise to back over someone who is already politically dead for the sake of building relationships with the inevitable successors (see Theresa May).
Is also this:
I said [in the Sun interview] that this incredible woman here is doing a fantastic job, a great job, and I mean that. I have gotten to know Theresa May much better over the last two days than the last year-and-a-half. I think she is a terrific woman and doing a terrific job ...
She will do very well. She is a tough negotiator and a very smart and determined person. I would much rather have her as my friend than enemy.
As a sidenote, the attack on the Sun was retarded too because:
He claimed the Sun write-up of his interview was “fake news” because it did not include his positive comments about May (even though it did). [guardian]
Did i get that one right?
As a general sidenote btw, the Sun is owned by Murdoch, for those who didn't know.
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On July 14 2018 01:46 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +Q: How can you improve relations with Russia when they have illegally occupied another country?
Trump says that happened when Obama was president. He says he does not think Putin would have done that if Trump had been president. He says, if you look at what he has done, no other president has done so much. Crimea was an Obama disaster.
He literally said that.
I don't see what's wrong with Trump's statement. He's clearly stating that Russia invaded Ukraine because it knew that Obama was a weak president, and that Putin wouldn't have tried it on Trump's watch. I think it goes without saying that everyone knows that Trump has far more resolve than Obama.
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On July 14 2018 01:52 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2018 01:48 xDaunt wrote:On July 14 2018 01:46 m4ini wrote:On July 14 2018 01:44 xDaunt wrote:On July 14 2018 01:41 On_Slaught wrote:On July 14 2018 01:31 xDaunt wrote:On July 14 2018 01:28 Plansix wrote:
I think Trump really wants to be buddies with Putin for some reason that we don't entirely know at this point. Because Trump's normal stance on diplomacy is "attack attack attack, claim everything is great". This isn't really accurate. Trump goes out of his way to be nice to leaders with whom he is trying to build a relationship from scratch. He wants a productive summit, so he's not going to lead it off with a big a "fuck you" to Putin. What's wrong with a big fuck you to Putin given the evidence that he ordered an attack on our democratic process? Shit, that is more damaging to our country that if he literally attacked a base of ours and killed troops. Trump has basically said fuck you to our allies for doing far less. Now all of a sudden we should be ok with him being formal and mannered to an enemy? Especially hilarious after how rude he has been in Britain. You're going to law school and hope to be a lawyer right? You better learn something about negotiation and personal relationships. Sometimes it is strategically wise to hold your tongue (see Putin). Sometimes it is strategically wise to back over someone who is already politically dead for the sake of building relationships with the inevitable successors (see Theresa May). Ah, so you missed the part where he licked her boots apologising, accusing the Sun of all people to be fake news? Right, right. No, I didn't miss that part. He wanted a good, civil press conference, hence the backpedaling and attacking the Sun. Ah, okay. So let me get this straight. This: Show nested quote +Sometimes it is strategically wise to back over someone who is already politically dead for the sake of building relationships with the inevitable successors (see Theresa May).
Is also this: Show nested quote +I said [in the Sun interview] that this incredible woman here is doing a fantastic job, a great job, and I mean that. I have gotten to know Theresa May much better over the last two days than the last year-and-a-half. I think she is a terrific woman and doing a terrific job ...
She will do very well. She is a tough negotiator and a very smart and determined person. I would much rather have her as my friend than enemy. As a sidenote, the attack on the Sun was retarded too because: Show nested quote +He claimed the Sun write-up of his interview was “fake news” because it did not include his positive comments about May (even though it did). [guardian] Did i get that one right?
I'm not sure what you're trying to demonstrate. Trump routinely talks out of both sides of his mouth -- relentlessly attacking someone and then building them back up in the next breath if it suits him.
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Tip of the iceburg.
Manafort trial in 2 weeks.
WikiLeaks and Roger Stone indictment imminent.
And I'm guessing that Congressman is the "honorable" traitor, Rohrabacher.
edit: Maybe you all haven't heard about today's new indictments against "Guccifer 2.0", which is actually a collection of GRU agents. https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4598929-Netyksho-Et-Al-Indictment.html
User was warned for this post.
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On July 14 2018 01:52 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2018 01:46 m4ini wrote:Q: How can you improve relations with Russia when they have illegally occupied another country?
Trump says that happened when Obama was president. He says he does not think Putin would have done that if Trump had been president. He says, if you look at what he has done, no other president has done so much. Crimea was an Obama disaster.
He literally said that. I don't see what's wrong with Trump's statement. He's clearly stating that Russia invaded Ukraine because it knew that Obama was a weak president, and that Putin wouldn't have tried it on Trump's watch. I think it goes without saying that everyone knows that Trump has far more resolve than Obama.
How twisted of a mind would you need to have to actually believe that?
Russia would've invaded Ukraine either way, because there's jack shit the US can do about it. To argue otherwise is disgustingly disingenuous. Trump would've done nothing different, or do you actually think someone believes that he'd go to war with russia? Because lets be clear, Putin would've gone after crimea one way or another?
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On July 14 2018 01:46 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2018 01:45 On_Slaught wrote:
We also discussed how he was getting played by NK. They are literally expanding their nuclear capabilities while Trump tweets about how he made them a non-threat. Like I said, the North Korea issue isn't settled. It's going to take years to see how it's going to pan out. Trump hasn't really given up anything yet.
Trump decided to stop holding military exercises with South Korea. This is a huge concession given away for absolutely nothing. Mattis was not consulted about this decision.
Trump gave KJU a photo op of him standing next to a US President as an equal. In Pyongyang's eyes, this is a very valuable concession indeed, so much so that past US administrations have tried to use the opportunity of such a summit as a carrot to induce good behavior in North Korea.
In return, Trump says he got "denuclearization" but North Korea is just continuing to build infrastructure for its nuclear weapons program.
Trump claims Kim agreed to the return of the remains of American soldiers who died during the Korean War. Trump said that he asked for this partly because the parents of soldiers who died in the Korean War were calling the White House and asking for their children's bodies back. However, the Korean War lasted from 1950 to 1953. More recently, Trump said that 200 bodies have been returned by North Korea since the summit, but this is a blatant lie as the real number is 0.
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On July 14 2018 01:55 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2018 01:52 xDaunt wrote:On July 14 2018 01:46 m4ini wrote:Q: How can you improve relations with Russia when they have illegally occupied another country?
Trump says that happened when Obama was president. He says he does not think Putin would have done that if Trump had been president. He says, if you look at what he has done, no other president has done so much. Crimea was an Obama disaster.
He literally said that. I don't see what's wrong with Trump's statement. He's clearly stating that Russia invaded Ukraine because it knew that Obama was a weak president, and that Putin wouldn't have tried it on Trump's watch. I think it goes without saying that everyone knows that Trump has far more resolve than Obama. How twisted of a mind would you need to have to actually believe that? Russia would've invaded Ukraine either way, because there's jack shit the US can do about it. To argue otherwise is disgustingly disingenuous. Trump would've done nothing different, or do you actually think someone believes that he'd go to war with russia?
I don't really know whether Russia would have done it on Trump's watch or if Trump would have responded militarily. All that I am saying is that Trump is clearly tougher than Obama.
Also, one thing to keep in mind is that Obama likely precipitated the Russian invasion of Ukraine with his meddling in Ukrainian politics. So Russia's invasion of the Ukraine wasn't simply about Obama perceived weakness to the extent that was part of Russia's calculation.
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The biggest invite to Ukraine/Crimea was the Iraq War, which is really, really obvious to anybody who cares.
The reasoning is about as simple as it gets. We, and most NATO members, went from full military at the ready, to a pointless quagmire that evaporated political-will for any future wars, regardless of their justifications.
Obama couldn't invade Syria. He wanted to. He couldn't. So what was he going to do to actual Russia?
Typical conservative nonsense. Blame everyone for your fuck-ups, no matter how crazy it sounds. xDaunt has been doing this for years. Obama was "bad and weak", but the Iraq War has absolutely zero-consequences.
In fact, it never happened.
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On July 14 2018 01:57 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2018 01:46 xDaunt wrote:On July 14 2018 01:45 On_Slaught wrote:
We also discussed how he was getting played by NK. They are literally expanding their nuclear capabilities while Trump tweets about how he made them a non-threat. Like I said, the North Korea issue isn't settled. It's going to take years to see how it's going to pan out. Trump hasn't really given up anything yet. Trump decided to stop holding military exercises with South Korea. This is a huge concession given away for absolutely nothing. Mattis was not consulted about this decision. Trump gave KJU a photo op of him standing next to a US President as an equal. In Pyongyang's eyes, this is a very valuable concession indeed, so much so that past US administrations have tried to use the opportunity of such a summit as a carrot to induce good behavior in North Korea. In return, Trump says he got "denuclearization" but North Korea is just continuing to build infrastructure for its nuclear weapons program. Trump claims Kim agreed to the return of the remains of American soldiers who died during the Korean War. Trump said that he asked for this partly because the parents of soldiers who died in the Korean War were calling the White House and asking for their children's bodies back. However, the Korean War lasted from 1950 to 1953. More recently, Trump said that 200 bodies have been returned by North Korea since the summit, but this is a blatant lie as the real number is 0.
So what. It's all symbolic. I want to see how Trump responds.
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EPT
