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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23313 Posts
The US spends as much at the state level per capita as most comparable nations do on their fully nationalised systems, and the same again via the private market. For generally worse results in terms of healthcare metrics on average. Now that money sloshing around, you probably get better pay and conditions on average, so as a healthcare professional yeah an attractive carrot. | ||
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Vivax
21731 Posts
https://www.bradyunited.org/resources/statistics about 300 people a day get shot over there. Technically Mr. CEO was a drop in the bucket. But his status made the deed special for the media. Less immoral corporations and less guns would go a long way. If these whales spent money on things that would improve society instead of super yachts and other types of penis surrogates it‘d help the crappy image of today‘s corporatism. You can buy everything in the US. But not your safety and wellbeing. Basics like healthcare and higher education murder your finances apparently. And this guys job was pretty close to a hitmans. Legally institutionalized murder is not that uncommon… Maybe he just wanted to show that he was better at the job than him. | ||
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KT_Elwood
605 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23313 Posts
On December 12 2024 07:05 Vivax wrote: According to this https://www.bradyunited.org/resources/statistics about 300 people a day get shot over there. Technically Mr. CEO was a drop in the bucket. But his status made the deed special for the media. Less immoral corporations and less guns would go a long way. If these whales spent money on things that would improve society instead of super yachts and other types of penis surrogates it‘d help the crappy image of today‘s corporatism. You can buy everything in the US. But not your safety and wellbeing. Basics like healthcare and higher education murder your finances apparently. And this guys job was pretty close to a hitmans. Legally institutionalized murder is not that uncommon… Why would people do that? The whole point of capitalism is buying stupid status trinkets, the whole point is that capital buys you power, status and prestige. It’s completely baked into the system, it’s the incentive in the system, it’s the reason someone speculating on stocks earns more than a nurse, or a teacher, or (insert a thousand jobs) You’re asking for beer that does all the beer things but doesn’t come with a hangover. The whole reason people become wealthy enough to buy yachts is because people want to become wealthy enough to buy a fucking yacht. Some may subsequently want to do some good, and fair play to those people. Most people who are primarily motivated by doing some good never end up with the requisite resources to make a huge systematic dent in anything, because they’re not soulless enough ghouls in the first place. It’s an awful system, and indeed the inequity it spawns is actively getting worse | ||
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BlackJack
United States10089 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35076 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43550 Posts
On December 12 2024 08:44 BlackJack wrote: I bet there will be a lot of posts about jury nullification shared on social media whenever the trial begins Just to clarify, "jury nullification" would be if the jurors are technically convinced that the defendant is legally guilty because of what the law entails, but they still decide to return a verdict of Not Guilty because they morally side with the defendant and/or don't approve of what the actual law is? Is that accurate? And that would hypothetically get the defendant off the hook for his crime, because he'd be free from Double Jeopardy, right? (Unless he'd be charged with a different crime, later on.) | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22398 Posts
On December 12 2024 09:05 Gahlo wrote: Has been from the moment he got taken in. Having the verdict from Daniel Penny's killing of Jordan Neely (harkens back to the "self-defense" discussion) come out at ~the same time certainly helped solidify it in many people's minds. As well as the contradictions that came with it. Pretty well summed up by the juxtaposition of the two stories in this clip. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35076 Posts
On December 12 2024 09:27 GreenHorizons wrote: Having the verdict from Daniel Penny's killing of Jordan Neely (harkens back to the "self-defense" discussion) come out at ~the same time certainly helped solidify it in many people's minds. As well as the contradictions that came with it. Pretty well summed up by the juxtaposition of the two stories in this clip. https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1866280962084237738 Absolutely. It's disgusting what went on there and how little coverage it has gotten. | ||
KwarK
United States41652 Posts
On December 12 2024 09:19 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Just to clarify, "jury nullification" would be if the jurors are technically convinced that the defendant is legally guilty because of what the law entails, but they still decide to return a verdict of Not Guilty because they morally side with the defendant and/or don't approve of what the actual law is? Is that accurate? And that would hypothetically get the defendant off the hook for his crime, because he'd be free from Double Jeopardy, right? (Unless he'd be charged with a different crime, later on.) Jury nullification isn't a specific thing, it's a loophole where the jury aren't required to explain the reason for their verdict to anyone and a case can't be retried because the jury got it wrong. It's a gap between other conventions that would be bad to patch. The jury doesn't announce "we're nullifying because of an unjust law", they just say "not guilty". | ||
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BlackJack
United States10089 Posts
On December 12 2024 09:27 GreenHorizons wrote: Having the verdict from Daniel Penny's killing of Jordan Neely (harkens back to the "self-defense" discussion) come out at ~the same time certainly helped solidify it in many people's minds. As well as the contradictions that came with it. Pretty well summed up by the juxtaposition of the two stories in this clip. https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1866280962084237738 Who would have guessed you’d have a stronger case for self-defense for attempting to subdue a deranged person threatening to kill people than you would for shooting someone in the back. Clearly not the people that want to live in the clown world. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23313 Posts
On December 12 2024 12:17 BlackJack wrote: Who would have guessed you’d have a stronger case for self-defense for attempting to subdue a deranged person threatening to kill people than you would for shooting someone in the back. Clearly not the people that want to live in the clown world. I’m starting to find it concerning we’re agreeing on too much stuff these days! Ever been around a deranged person? Someone properly unstable? I have, it was me. I’m fully open about it, most people seem to respect my openness except some strange individual who feels the need to register the odd account to throw a dig. If my family, in coordination with a few friends hadn’t got me sectioned and I was left flying on the winds longer, unsupervised I mean that doesn’t end well. I’m not a particularly big guy, I’ve got pretty decent hand-eye coordination. Was still able to smoke my brother who’s considerably bigger than I am because hey, I’ve no limits anymore. We’ve since more than reconciled, and discussed this period. ‘I was trying to contain and manage you, but when it finally came out it was 100% rage. I could maybe muster up 70% and the remaining 30% was concern for you, you’re going to beat my ass if im pulling punches.’ I’m not going sob story here, not at all. There seems to me a giant naivety about what unstable people actually look like in practice. Fuck I’m just considering the folks I knew from those days who were unstable and recovered, never mind the folks who’ll never leave prison or a psyche ward. You encounter the latter on a train, choke them out. One bloke on one of our proper psycho wards managed to figure how to jam the door system, and subsequently blinded the psychologist using his own broken glasses lenses | ||
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KT_Elwood
605 Posts
On December 12 2024 12:17 BlackJack wrote: Who would have guessed you’d have a stronger case for self-defense for attempting to subdue a deranged person threatening to kill people than you would for shooting someone in the back. Clearly not the people that want to live in the clown world. The guy who killed the other guy wasn't assaulted by him. He approached him from behind, held im in a chokehold for 6 minutes, even past the point he passed out. The victim "threw his jacket on the ground, so violently, that you could hear the zipper impact" "Was screaming and approaching - but never touching - people" "Some people moved away" So the person was annoying, loud, frightening.. in a subway. How does that justify killing the person? He grabbed him from behind, choking him out. He demonstrated his ability to resort to extreme violence, instead of facing the attacker screaming at him. "But he solved the problem" Yep. No one was hurt, but the reject, homeless, drugaddict, who has ZERO lobby. US should really be reminded.. that "heroes" are those who give something, usually their life, to achieve a greater goal. Just killing somebody with little risk to yourself.. wouldn't qualify here. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10089 Posts
But don’t worry. Simply being prosecuted is quite the punishment in itself. It’s sufficient to ensure that the next time this happens the people capable of doing something to stop it will wisely not get involved. Next time the lady with the small child in the stroller can fend for herself against the psychotic man on drugs. Progress. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21224 Posts
someone trying to stab you and you hit them with a brick? self defence. choking a non violent person to death, absolutely not. | ||
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KT_Elwood
605 Posts
The accused un-aliver of the person didn't stand between possible victims..or the person.. he just attacked him from behind. Americans seem to have a different understanding of proportional violence. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3517 Posts
On December 12 2024 23:29 KT_Elwood wrote: According to reports, while the person acted agressively, he never harmed anyone. The accused un-aliver of the person didn't stand between possible victims..or the person.. he just attacked him from behind. Americans seem to have a different understanding of proportional violence. This is possible, but Penny said that Neely threatened to kill everyone on the train. If he speaks the truth, then a chokehold would be justified. The jury is undecided, which is why the judge dismissed the charge. Other charges are ongoing. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10565 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria3517 Posts
On December 12 2024 23:55 Velr wrote: You still wouldn't be allowed to choke someone to death. Once he was controlled, the right to self defense ends (well, it should). Keeping him in the choke for minutes longer is plain murder. It's not that simple. After it becomes a fight for life and death, the perpetrator has to surrender or else you can't tell whether or not you can safely release them. Neely was seen mightily struggling to escape the chokehold, with Penny having to restrain him with a lot of strength and another passenger assisting him in holding Neely down. This is why the initial threat to all the other passengers is the most important element to the case. If Penny says the truth, then the way this transpired can be completely justified. | ||
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oBlade
United States5136 Posts
On December 12 2024 23:29 KT_Elwood wrote: According to reports, while the person acted agressively, he never harmed anyone. The accused un-aliver of the person didn't stand between possible victims..or the person.. he just attacked him from behind. Americans seem to have a different understanding of proportional violence. Americans recognize human beings do not come with handily accessible and conveniently differentiated "pause" and "terminate" buttons that other people can simply press when necessary and therefore historically go against punishing survivors for making it out of situations which arise from the aforestated fact of life. | ||
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