US Politics Mega-thread - Page 4042

On August 16 2023 23:15 oBlade wrote:

Free cars too. What else can we finance and cancel so we can get for free? How about rolexes? Some nice latest generation computers. A boat? Private plane?

On August 17 2023 01:09 oBlade wrote:

Many things result in benefits, we live in a world of limited resources in which those must be balanced against costs in any rational system. It plainly does not benefit you to pay my mortgage. It benefits society to have workers that are more productive than they cost.

You ignored cars because probably you see it's inconvenient - Cars are necessary in some locations. But is it necessary to live in those locations? Just because cars are necessary, does that mean you need the Audi? If you get the Audi, is it your neighbor's job to pay for it when he's got a 30 year old Honda? Would he have gotten an Audi too if he knew the game was going to change?

The fact that education is a benefit to society doesn't divide into that any specific level is necessary for each member of it. Nor that it's our job to pay for it. This is the same with housing. I want a 6bed 4bath waterfront with a runway. What's "necessary."

It's beneficial for an airplane to be lighter, that's not cause enough to make the wings out of paper or perform liposuction on every passenger.

If the education WERE so necessary for each of the members in question here, they would have the income to show for it that would enable them to kick their debt to the curb easily.

Is the internet not a societal necessity? A public option for ISPs and telecoms would be nice, but that doesn't take into account people who can't handle drowning in the monthly costs of their phone and data and internet plans. Surely they need some relief.

There are two directions here - A functioning system of economics and laws, or a gold rush to steal as much as possible from the government by voting for it. Either stealing in amounts that are small enough not to look like they matter (only hundreds of billions in comparison to a several trillion dollar budget) or by creating a huge coalition of everyone selflesly voting to steal things for each other's benefits. I'll vote for your student debt cancellation politician if he adopts my 6bed housing mortgage cancellation plan and my cousin's medical debt cancellation plan. The revolution that would be caused by the collapse when the economy goes where this unlegislated spending would inevitably take it, would not lead to the workers' utopia we'd like it to.


Having a housed and educated population is what would be prohibitively expensive if the public sector were footing the bill.

On August 17 2023 01:17 Gorsameth wrote:
I think pay is the fundamental problem yes.

You don't 'need' less educated people to do those so called bottleneck jobs. But they are hard and/or stressful jobs that give garbage pay. If you payed a nurse the same as a doctor I would suspect you have a much easier time finding more people willing to be a nurse.
But capitalism doesn't want to pay more for labour then it absolutely has to, much better to pocket all the money from the productivity then have to pay for it. So we'd rather pull in poor immigrants who will happily work for the royal salary of minimum wage then restructure our economy and society around actually paying for a persons time and effort.

On August 17 2023 01:09 oBlade wrote:
You ignored cars because probably you see it's inconvenient - Cars are necessary in some locations. But is it necessary to live in those locations? Just because cars are necessary, does that mean you need the Audi? If you get the Audi, is it your neighbor's job to pay for it when he's got a 30 year old Honda? Would he have gotten an Audi too if he knew the game was going to change?

The fact that education is a benefit to society doesn't divide into that any specific level is necessary for each member of it. Nor that it's our job to pay for it. This is the same with housing. I want a 6bed 4bath waterfront with a runway. What's "necessary."

It's beneficial for an airplane to be lighter, that's not cause enough to make the wings out of paper or perform liposuction on every passenger.

If the education WERE so necessary for each of the members in question here, they would have the income to show for it that would enable them to kick their debt to the curb easily.

Is the internet not a societal necessity? A public option for ISPs and telecoms would be nice, but that doesn't take into account people who can't handle drowning in the monthly costs of their phone and data and internet plans. Surely they need some relief.

On August 17 2023 02:16 Zambrah wrote:


Free internet and public transport sounds like it'd be pretty great too, tbh

On August 17 2023 02:21 Uldridge wrote:


Seems like large snippets in your response you conflate necessities and luxuries some more.

Why shouldn't a society collectively be burdoned by itself as a whole? Why take such an isolatory approach to marginally aiding a fellow citizen?
Agreeing on base necessities is how we move forward, these base necessities shift accordingly with the technological advancements. If 1% of people owns 50% of the capital, is it so much to ask to share some of it to house people freely, or at least more affordably so that they have less stressful lives?
I've yet to see a truly convincing case to not help the people that make up your base workforce that are stuck in some dystopian cycle of trying to make ends meet, while making "Mr I make 10000x times more than you because I got to get a business degree on daddies money" disproportionately more and more money as time goes on.


What about free healthcare? Or supermarkets providing items at a price that doesn't reflect profit chasing - for water at least, but we can include water and sugar and fat and eggs in that category. Or better yet, cut out the supermarkets for milk and eggs and meats alltogether.

On August 17 2023 02:52 Simberto wrote:


Water: I think a government which is not capable of delivering drinkable water through the pipes into peoples homes is failing its job as a government of a country. After air, drinkable water is the most important and pressing human need. Far ahead of even food. And we have a system that works, and is incredibly cheap. It also produces little to no waste.

Why do so many countries not manage to get drinkable water through their pipes into peoples homes?

I was in italy and saw a guy load a full cart with the cheapest bottled drinking water available. Why is that necessary? It produces so much senseless waste and effort.

Some exceptions may be made for remote areas which are really far off the grid. But for anything close to civilization, not having drinkable water coming out of the pipes should be a major emberassment for the government.

On August 17 2023 03:21 Gorsameth wrote:
I can't speak for a random Italian but despite the local tap producing perfectly fine and healthy water I often drink cheap bottled water because I prefer the taste over tap water (of one brand anyway, tried another and it was worse then the tap water).

If 1% of people owns 50% of the capital, is it so much to ask to share some of it to house people freely, or at least more affordably so that they have less stressful lives?

make up your base workforce that are stuck in some dystopian cycle of trying to make ends meet, while making "Mr I make 10000x times more than you because I got to get a business degree on daddies money" disproportionately more and more money as time goes on.

On August 17 2023 01:09 oBlade wrote:

Many things result in benefits, we live in a world of limited resources in which those must be balanced against costs in any rational system. It plainly does not benefit you to pay my mortgage. It benefits society to have workers that are more productive than they cost.

You ignored cars because probably you see it's inconvenient - Cars are necessary in some locations. But is it necessary to live in those locations? Just because cars are necessary, does that mean you need the Audi? If you get the Audi, is it your neighbor's job to pay for it when he's got a 30 year old Honda? Would he have gotten an Audi too if he knew the game was going to change?

The fact that education is a benefit to society doesn't divide into that any specific level is necessary for each member of it. Nor that it's our job to pay for it. This is the same with housing. I want a 6bed 4bath waterfront with a runway. What's "necessary."

It's beneficial for an airplane to be lighter, that's not cause enough to make the wings out of paper or perform liposuction on every passenger.

If the education WERE so necessary for each of the members in question here, they would have the income to show for it that would enable them to kick their debt to the curb easily.

Is the internet not a societal necessity? A public option for ISPs and telecoms would be nice, but that doesn't take into account people who can't handle drowning in the monthly costs of their phone and data and internet plans. Surely they need some relief.

There are two directions here - A functioning system of economics and laws, or a gold rush to steal as much as possible from the government by voting for it. Either stealing in amounts that are small enough not to look like they matter (only hundreds of billions in comparison to a several trillion dollar budget) or by creating a huge coalition of everyone selflesly voting to steal things for each other's benefits. I'll vote for your student debt cancellation politician if he adopts my 6bed housing mortgage cancellation plan and my cousin's medical debt cancellation plan. The revolution that would be caused by the collapse when the economy goes where this unlegislated spending would inevitably take it, would not lead to the workers' utopia we'd like it to.


Having a housed and educated population is what would be prohibitively expensive if the public sector were footing the bill.

On August 17 2023 02:52 Simberto wrote:


Water: I think a government which is not capable of delivering drinkable water through the pipes into peoples homes is failing its job as a government of a country. After air, drinkable water is the most important and pressing human need. Far ahead of even food. And we have a system that works, and is incredibly cheap. It also produces little to no waste.

Why do so many countries not manage to get drinkable water through their pipes into peoples homes?

I was in italy and saw a guy load a full cart with the cheapest bottled drinking water available. Why is that necessary? It produces so much senseless waste and effort.

Some exceptions may be made for remote areas which are really far off the grid. But for anything close to civilization, not having drinkable water coming out of the pipes should be a major emberassment for the government.

On August 17 2023 03:34 GreenHorizons wrote:

The purpose of the US system of racial capitalism is to prevent that 1% from having to share and keep the 99% from just taking it like they would if it were condensed to an Island of 100 people and 1 person was hoarding 50% of the island's resources and forcing people to do stupid pet tricks for them to "earn" their basic necessities that person claims to own. It's also designed to

People need to wrap their minds around the fact that these are features of capitalism, not bugs.

The point of capitalism isn't to have a high-quality equitable society, it's to rationalize the destitution and inequity as meritocratic instead of inherited.

This makes social democratic solutions to problems inevitable failures. The best social democrats can aim for is a perpetual underclass that "earned" their oppression and exploitation, rather than inheriting it.

On August 17 2023 16:03 Uldridge wrote:
So how do we stop people becoming powerhungry?
Gene editing? Behavioral therapy? Subliminal messaging?

Maybe it will be weeded out simply with time due to how unnecessary the trait may become in future generations, maybe it will stay as an intrinsic part of the heterogenic human behavior set. After all, powerhungry (or leading capacity, more euphimistically) makes for things to happen. It's either that or these people become serial killers.