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I've lived in a number of places in Canada on well/septic. It is what DPB and others have described, no walking to a well with a bucket to get the water for the day, no having to boil your water every time so its drinkable (Though I have vacationed at cabins and campgrounds where that was suggested!). It isn't exactly dystopian, it's only a few considerations different than integrated plumbing.
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On August 19 2023 00:08 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2023 23:04 Sadist wrote:On August 18 2023 22:39 brian wrote:On August 18 2023 20:21 Velr wrote:A town with 2000 people not having a sewage system in a modern country isn't "normal", no matter how you put it. In Switzerland there is a law, since 1991, that buildings have to be connected to the sewage system. 98% of them are connected. This includes small towns in the mountains and so on.... Google translate of a cantonal (~state) law as example: https://www.fr.ch/sites/default/files/2019-12/eaux_usees_obligation_raccorder_de.pdf3.1 Construction zone Within the building zones, all buildings, including the residential buildings of farms, must be connected (Art. 11 para. 2 letter a GSchG). 3.2 Outside the construction zone The area of public sewers also includes the buildings outside the building zones for the the connection to the sewage network if appropriate and reasonable (Art. 11 Para. 2 Letter c GSchG). In practice the connection of polluted waste water to the public sewage system outside of building zones is expedient if it can be produced without any problems (according to state of the art technology) and with normal structural effort. (Article 12 paragraph 1 letter a GSchV). In rare cases, it may be due to topographical reasons or because of difficult ground conditions, prove that a connection is not justified. The fact that the sewage has to be pumped, according to case law, does not justify a release from the connection obligation In short: It's plain illegal to build and not be connected to a sewage system if there are not serious topographical reasons for it, being "a bit too far away" or "it would be expensive" aren't such reasons. the state of texas alone is 17x the size of switzerland. we have 49 other states in the union. I don’t know if your perception of ‘too far away’ really applies. a better comparison of size for a given country might be Australia, where i have doubts the whole country is fitted for sewages and water. On August 18 2023 21:08 Acrofales wrote:On August 18 2023 20:19 EnDeR_ wrote:On August 18 2023 19:39 Sadist wrote:On August 18 2023 14:15 Velr wrote:
We are talking about the US not India right? This is mindboggling. The US is way bigger than most people realize. Because of this the population density is much lower than people expect. It can be tricky to fund this stuff when a towns population is like 2000 and the tax base is small and everyone is spread out. Federal money usually doesnt cover stuff like water & sewer. Having a septic tank isnt so bad if it works well. I know several people who have city sewer connections and if theres a deluge of storm water or tree roots have gotten into the pipes the sewer will back up into their basement and the city wont pay for repairs. I just had a quick google and only found news for one town in Spain that has no running water infrastructure ( Fuentes de Agreda population: 1), although admittedly this is not exactly a foolproof metric. All the other news items talk about drought causing shortages or water unsuitable for consumption, but the infrastructure is there. Spain also has very sparsely populated areas, particularly near the middle of the country with population densities over large stretches around 1-10 people/km^2, which I believe is similar to what you're referring to. If Spain (not exactly topping anyone's richest countries list) can manage to link up historical small towns to the water supply, it is fairly mindboggling to see that one of the richest countries on the planet can't manage this fairly pedestrian feat, in all honesty. I agree that I cannot really think of anywhere that isn't connected to running water. Even tiny hamlets in the Pyrenees with like 20 inhabitants have running water. Of course, it might actually be easier there, as mountain water is pretty abundant and pure, but still, the same goes for tiny hamlets in the middle of Extremadura or Almería. They have running water. Plumbing and electricity is a bit trickier and I've stayed at rural B&Bs that have a septic tank and rely on solar panels on their roof for electricity. That said, a septic tank is a reasonable solution, probably a lot more reasonable than trying to connect all the farms in outlying regions to some kind of municipal sewer.
well water, for practical use, is running water. you can turn on a faucet and do laundry. the limitation is usually like- don’t plan to do three loads of laundry and have five people shower in a given day. Realistically there should be no problem with this. If there are any concerns with the well running dry you have bigger issues. People fill swimming pools with well water. You risk burning your well pump out by doing that but the amount of water shouldnt be a concern. But ya to be clear I am not sure if people are imaging no running water and pooping in a ditch but thats not it. Its exactly like being on city water and sewage except you have a well pump and probably a water softener and your septic gets pumped every few years for a couple hundred bucks. It also would be interesting to compare population densities for Canada and the US and control for urban centers. I have a feeling a higher percentage of Canadas populations live in larger cities than the US. My rationale could be wrong but even though the US has 320 million people we dont have nearly as many cities on the highest population list as one may expect. Additionally, we dont really have any "Mega Cities" other than NYC. In short, there are a shocking amount of suburbs, small towns, etc compared to some more highly urbanized countries. Here’s what I found,2021 rural population was 6,601,982 people, while the urban population was 30,389,999 people for Canada In 2020, there were approximately 57.47 million people living in rural areas in the United States, compared to about 274.03 million people living in urban areas. Which is shockingly similar it’s like 17-83% for Canada and 18-82% for the US and part of that is rounding so less than a half percent difference. Density is not close we’re 4 per square Km 11 per sq mile and the US is 37 per square km and 96 per mile. If you took the Arctic out of Canada it would still be close but like still far away. I live near the city in Alberta that is tied for 3rd/4th largest and its 100k people. Alberta is the 4th most populated province. Our prairies are empty and giant.
I guess the population density is my point. An example might be Austrailia. Yes its fucking huge but most of the population is on the coasts. Its misleading to me to consider this vast openness in the middle in the population density calculations. Same goes for Canada. You would conclude Canada and Austrailia were super rural but thats not the case at all for nearly everyone living there.
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On August 19 2023 00:31 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2023 00:17 Fleetfeet wrote:
I've lived in a number of places in Canada on well/septic. It is what DPB and others have described, no walking to a well with a bucket to get the water for the day, no having to boil your water every time so its drinkable (Though I have vacationed at cabins and campgrounds where that was suggested!). It isn't exactly dystopian, it's only a few considerations different than integrated plumbing. I have too, on farms and lots of acreages are the same and make sense. The 5 mins from big urban area or towns without it was what was shocking to me.
What's 5 minutes now wasn't always 5 minutes. What looks like a suburb wasn't always. It doesn't make sense to run pipes out to 1-2 houses. So they get a septic tank. Then 2 more people build, and they get septic tanks. Then 3 more, etc. And each time plumbing doesn't make sense. And then everyone has a well and septic tanks, so it doesn't make sense to scrap them all for a city hookup.
Its kinda like how my dad has satellite TV and Internet now. It would cost like 5 grand to run him a cable line. However, I expect in 25 years that area will be pretty bustling (its about 30 minutes from one of the fastest growing cities in the US).
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There is no shortage of cities who bankrupted themselves with infrastructure projects because they thought they were giving to keep growing at a rapid rate and massively overextended.
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On August 19 2023 03:45 JimmiC wrote:
There is plenty of corruption in the US, that is true. But acting like how it is, is because of good decisions is foolish.
Only thing that would be dumber would be part of a political party that was mad at big pharma and defended private health care.
Every citizen will become its own apothecary! Make pills with just these herbs found in your own back yard.
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On August 19 2023 03:45 JimmiC wrote:
There is plenty of corruption in the US, that is true. But acting like how it is, is because of good decisions is foolish.
Only thing that would be dumber would be part of a political party that was mad at big pharma and defended private health care.
Its not corruption, its irrational ambition. Like the plan to put a bunch of sewage and piping into a subdivision with 1 house because you are sure its going to soon have 100.
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The argument seems fairly absurd that money is the reason why a small percentage of Americans don't have clean tap water. The vast majority of Americans have access to it. It only takes a few extra steps to give access to the remaining people, money is certainly not the issue. It's only a matter of policy.
A truly big problem is that trust in tap water has declined. This is unfortunately rooted in fact, because contaminated tap water has indeed been discovered many times. A consequence of that is that people stop drinking tap water that has already been made safe. They don't get as much fluoride on their teeth, and instead more sugar from soft drinks, and thus the financial and health cost of fluid consumption increases a lot, while tap water would be much less expensive.
Distrust has led to a disproportionate avoidance of tap water. Only very few cases exist where water is contaminated, but distrust is easily around 30 times greater than that. Strict water safety policies need to be instated across the whole country so that people's trust can be regained, leading to better health and lower spending.
The few cases where people lack access to tap water, or where their sewage is basically broken, need to be addressed as well.
This is strictly not a money problem. It's a matter of doing it.
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On August 18 2023 22:39 brian wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2023 20:21 Velr wrote:A town with 2000 people not having a sewage system in a modern country isn't "normal", no matter how you put it. In Switzerland there is a law, since 1991, that buildings have to be connected to the sewage system. 98% of them are connected. This includes small towns in the mountains and so on.... Google translate of a cantonal (~state) law as example: https://www.fr.ch/sites/default/files/2019-12/eaux_usees_obligation_raccorder_de.pdf3.1 Construction zone Within the building zones, all buildings, including the residential buildings of farms, must be connected (Art. 11 para. 2 letter a GSchG). 3.2 Outside the construction zone The area of public sewers also includes the buildings outside the building zones for the the connection to the sewage network if appropriate and reasonable (Art. 11 Para. 2 Letter c GSchG). In practice the connection of polluted waste water to the public sewage system outside of building zones is expedient if it can be produced without any problems (according to state of the art technology) and with normal structural effort. (Article 12 paragraph 1 letter a GSchV). In rare cases, it may be due to topographical reasons or because of difficult ground conditions, prove that a connection is not justified. The fact that the sewage has to be pumped, according to case law, does not justify a release from the connection obligation In short: It's plain illegal to build and not be connected to a sewage system if there are not serious topographical reasons for it, being "a bit too far away" or "it would be expensive" aren't such reasons. the state of texas alone is 17x the size of switzerland. we have 49 other states in the union. I don’t know if your perception of ‘too far away’ really applies. a better comparison of size for a given country might be Australia, where i have doubts the whole country is fitted for sewages and water. Show nested quote +On August 18 2023 21:08 Acrofales wrote:On August 18 2023 20:19 EnDeR_ wrote:On August 18 2023 19:39 Sadist wrote:On August 18 2023 14:15 Velr wrote:
We are talking about the US not India right? This is mindboggling. The US is way bigger than most people realize. Because of this the population density is much lower than people expect. It can be tricky to fund this stuff when a towns population is like 2000 and the tax base is small and everyone is spread out. Federal money usually doesnt cover stuff like water & sewer. Having a septic tank isnt so bad if it works well. I know several people who have city sewer connections and if theres a deluge of storm water or tree roots have gotten into the pipes the sewer will back up into their basement and the city wont pay for repairs. I just had a quick google and only found news for one town in Spain that has no running water infrastructure ( Fuentes de Agreda population: 1), although admittedly this is not exactly a foolproof metric. All the other news items talk about drought causing shortages or water unsuitable for consumption, but the infrastructure is there. Spain also has very sparsely populated areas, particularly near the middle of the country with population densities over large stretches around 1-10 people/km^2, which I believe is similar to what you're referring to. If Spain (not exactly topping anyone's richest countries list) can manage to link up historical small towns to the water supply, it is fairly mindboggling to see that one of the richest countries on the planet can't manage this fairly pedestrian feat, in all honesty. I agree that I cannot really think of anywhere that isn't connected to running water. Even tiny hamlets in the Pyrenees with like 20 inhabitants have running water. Of course, it might actually be easier there, as mountain water is pretty abundant and pure, but still, the same goes for tiny hamlets in the middle of Extremadura or Almería. They have running water. Plumbing and electricity is a bit trickier and I've stayed at rural B&Bs that have a septic tank and rely on solar panels on their roof for electricity. That said, a septic tank is a reasonable solution, probably a lot more reasonable than trying to connect all the farms in outlying regions to some kind of municipal sewer. well water, for practical use, is running water. you can turn on a faucet and do laundry. the limitation is usually like- don’t plan to do three loads of laundry and have five people shower in a given day.
With running water I meant municipally regulated. I guess it's possible that Agbar (and the other water companies) allow people to have wells and then periodic inspections of their tap water, but wells are heavily regulated in the first place (as you'd expect, with the whole country being a semi-desert at best). But basically as a resident, you are not personally responsible for your tap water, the municipality is. So if the municipality is using a well, they are also responsible for ensuring the water quality. There is nobody drilling their own well in their back yard, and no property is in charge of their own drinking water, even if they are the only property drawing from a well.
That's not to say there aren't water restrictions. Living in a semi-desert in the middle of a drought obviously means not everybody can use water for everything they might want. Filling swimming pools with tap water, for instance, is strictly forbidden at the moment, as is washing your car, and until 2 months ago, watering your garden. Obviously each municipality has its own regulations, because each municipality has different requirements. In the middle of Lleida, one of the main farming areas of Catalonia, I'm sure there's a heavier emphasis on using water for irrigation than there is in my own urban area on the coast.
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United States24680 Posts
Although I am not currently having any trouble with my well or septic system, I will point out that in addition to my own well I needed to add a chlorination system (add a bit of bleach at a time) to remove the sulfur smell. I have no idea how the previous owners dealt with that :r I also have a water softening system, a big blue filter, and a reverse-osmosis unit under my kitchen sink.
The chlorination system requires me to add a bottle of bleach and some water to a tank once every few months. The water softening system requires me to add big bags of salt every few months. The big blue filter needs to be changed every 6-12 months or so. The reverse-osmosis unit needs parts replaced every couple of years or so (depending on part). The well water itself I get tested for contaminants every few years. The septic tank needs to be pumped every few years.
While it's quite a normal thing to be in this position, I won't deny it's a pain in the ass.
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United States24680 Posts
Fortunately I haven't needed that service yet but I'm pretty sure the answer is yes. The first firetruck starts spraying water from its own tank. If the fire is big, more trucks show up supplying more water.
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Theres a fire hydrant down the street from me even though im on a well. Not sure if its potable though.
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EPT
