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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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ZeroByte13
795 Posts
And to be honest this is probably what I'd use for a trans-person that visually doesn't match their pronounces. Using the name only. It would be easier this way and wouldn't hurt anyone. But that's just an assumption - I've never been in such a situation yet. In 36 years I've met exactly 1 trans-person so far, I mean where I'd know they are trans, and I talked to them only once. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45534 Posts
On July 06 2023 17:22 ZeroByte13 wrote: Oh, ok, I misunderstood you then. And to be honest this is probably what I'd use for a trans-person that visually doesn't match their pronounces. Using the name only. It would be easier this way and wouldn't hurt anyone. But that's just an assumption - I've never been in such a situation yet. I think that's a pretty safe and respectful start, although I hope you'll ultimately conclude what I have: It doesn't take much for me to validate trans people, but showing respect goes a long way for the recipient. That's why I use their preferred pronouns, even if I wouldn't have correctly guessed them on my own. I'm a teacher, so I teach the occasional trans student. Some of those trans students have parents who aren't accepting of their child's preferred pronouns, so when I email or talk to the anti-trans parents, I just say the student's name and avoid pronouns altogether. I don't find it to be too awkward to navigate, and it's the best way for me to honor my students while not distracting or pissing off parents that I need to constructively communicate with about something unrelated to gender. | ||
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ZeroByte13
795 Posts
On July 06 2023 17:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: As I said, it's all hypothetical now - I'm yet to end up in such a situation.I think that's a pretty safe and respectful start, although I hope you'll ultimately conclude what I have: It doesn't take much for me to validate trans people It's not about not respecting them, it's about whether my brain will find a workaround for this never-experienced-by-me-before situation or not. Maybe I'll have no issues at all, maybe I will struggle - I prefer to not claim what I'd do in situations I've never been in before. My guess would be - if their personality is great and I want to talk to them often, it'd be easier. If it's not the case, well, why would I talk to/about them much anyway? So maybe all of this is not an issue at all, but I'll know when/if this happens. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
Problems with certain words or strings of words being either too broad or too specific have existed for a very long time, and it creates awkward misunderstandings all the time. People have even had shouting matches and fights over a small bit of miscommunication that could be solved if we were more willing to update our language. A friend of mine has been practically training his customers since years to communicate better with him, and it's resulted in clear improvements. He doesn't let them get away with half-assed speaking, and they respect that. People are capable of learning, they just need a bit of well-intentioned nudging, and if we treat each other with respect and patience we can get somewhere. A lot of that requires improvization and not strict adherence to rules. Rules should support our way of life, not the other way around. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10876 Posts
Genderfluent people are also not some uniform bloc and most also prefer he or she, simply because it's easier. Now we are somewhere at the minority of a minority of a minority... Just don't be an ass and you'll be fine. There is no need to ask for pronouns for the ultra rare case that you meet someone, then misgendered the person because you couldn't tell from their presentation/behaviour and the person uses "special" pronouns. This is plain not an issue. If your unsure, just use the Name instead of pronouns... | ||
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ZeroByte13
795 Posts
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On July 06 2023 16:50 Liquid`Drone wrote: I think 'bullshit' is a bit.. loaded, but there's an element to the pronouns debacle where I can see where one would land there. Not in terms of using she/them, but rather in terms of 'neopronouns', like xe and zir and eir. Again this isn't a real problem or anything, I'm guessing it's like a triple digit number of people who insist on those, but as a person with some interest in linguistics, who most certainly accepts and argues for the concept of languages as subject to evolution, there's something funny about the concept of just inventing a new set of pronouns. It's almost like if someone insisted on new set of articles, like now instead of the I'm gonna use pha and instead of a and an, I'm going with gi and ig. Like it doesn't bother me but if someone prefaced an email with my articles are pha, gi and ig and they then proceeded writing pha meeting is on Monday, we'll discuss the need for gi new coffee machine and pha upcoming Christmas party I'd think that's a bit weird. And yeah I'm just being facetious, I can understand how there was a vacuum in terms of gender neutral pronouns which people tried to fill. But I also understand that if some 50 year old dude is browsing Facebook and he sees some post from TheAntiPCMemeFactory screenshotting an email ending with my pronouns are xe/xem they go what the fuck lol without necessarily them being a bigot. I've met maybe 5-10 ze/zirs and they were all during COVID times. I have never met anyone with any other 'neopronouns' although the internet tells me there are dozens if not hundreds of them (pronouns, not people). I don't think I've met any in at least a year. Makes me think neopronouns peaked a couple years ago. | ||
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Slydie
1935 Posts
I strongly dislike constructed pronouns as well. English is fortunate to have "they/them" already, but that is not the case for every language. | ||
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gobbledydook
Australia2605 Posts
On the other hand, every noun in French is either masculine and feminine and there is no gender neutral grammar. But Japan is much more conservative in these issues than France, so I’m not sure that language has much to do with attitudes regarding LGBT issues. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7150 Posts
On July 06 2023 19:07 Slydie wrote: On the topic of language, I think German is the worst in terms of gender, but their mistake was forcing "in/innen" as female professional titles. Now, written German is an ugly mess where "musiker*innen" is the with the star officially forced standard. Simply saying that "musiker" is a gender neutral term like "musician" is in English would have solved the problem much more elegantly. I strongly dislike constructed pronouns as well. English is fortunate to have "they/them" already, but that is not the case for every language. lol yeah German is an absolute clusterfk right now. We could do a threeway version of every title like Polizist (neutral), Polizistin (female), Polizister (male) just to make it even more ... interesting | ||
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Simberto
Germany11803 Posts
On July 06 2023 20:22 Harris1st wrote: lol yeah German is an absolute clusterfk right now. We could do a threeway version of every title like Polizist (neutral), Polizistin (female), Polizister (male) just to make it even more ... interesting I saw a fun solution once. Replace every gendered ending with a gender-neutral "y" (pronounced ie) with the plural "ies". So we get "Polizisty" and "Polizisties", "Schüly" and "Schülies" and so forth. It works surprisingly well, is far less clumsy, and i would actually like it if it were accepted as societal consensus. Also, it makes things sound cute. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7150 Posts
On July 06 2023 21:05 Simberto wrote: I saw a fun solution once. Replace every gendered ending with a gender-neutral "y" (pronounced ie) with the plural "ies". So we get "Polizisty" and "Polizisties", "Schüly" and "Schülies" and so forth. It works surprisingly well, is far less clumsy, and i would actually like it if it were accepted as societal consensus. Also, it makes things sound cute. That would be awesome! A bit like Schwyzerdütsch. German has way to many hard consonants anyway | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On July 06 2023 18:49 ZeroByte13 wrote: You mean always using "they/them" is wrong? If you're not sure, it can never hurt, it shows that you're trying not to misgender other people, but once you know what someone prefers to go by you should use that when you can. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18264 Posts
On July 06 2023 15:20 StasisField wrote: Well then I guess let me be the first to inform you that gender studies is an academic field and this isn't just kids making it up as they go and adults going along with it. The online right ridiculed gender studies for years in the 2010's so I'm not surprised you're unfamiliar with the field and what it covers (not meant as a jab. Genuinely doubt any given political circle would talk about a field it doesn't value in some way). Pronouns like she/them are pretty simple. They don't inform you of what gender a person is but rather what pronouns a person is happy to be referred to as. For example, I am a cis man and I'm happy to be referred to as he or him in conversation but I wouldn't have any problems with being referred to as they or them in conversation either. Therefore, my pronouns are he/them. Genuine curiosity. Why are your pronouns he/them and not he/they? I mean. I self-identity as a man and would not be offended if someone referred to me as "they", but it would be weird if you phrased a sentence as: "he needs that book back tomorrow, so can you please remember to give it back to them?" | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18264 Posts
On July 06 2023 19:07 Slydie wrote: On the topic of language, I think German is the worst in terms of gender, but their mistake was forcing "in/innen" as female professional titles. Now, written German is an ugly mess where "musiker*innen" is the with the star officially forced standard. Simply saying that "musiker" is a gender neutral term like "musician" is in English would have solved the problem much more elegantly. I strongly dislike constructed pronouns as well. English is fortunate to have "they/them" already, but that is not the case for every language. Spanish is a mess too, reverting to @ as the combination of a and o (male and female forms). So you get emails starting with "hola coleg@s" (even though "colega" is already gender neutral). And even that hideous contraption doesn't solve the problem, because there are plenty of words that don't end in o/a, like "profesor" (which is not just professor, but just generally teacher), but isn't gender neutral, because "profesora" is the female form, so you still get other constructions like profesor/a. Note: I'm not saying we shouldn't fix our language to incorporate better gender terms and gender neutral terms. Just that the current solutions are a mess. It's a process! | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45534 Posts
On July 06 2023 21:56 Acrofales wrote: Genuine curiosity. Why are your pronouns he/them and not he/they? I mean. I self-identity as a man and would not be offended if someone referred to me as "they", but it would be weird if you phrased a sentence as: "he needs that book back tomorrow, so can you please remember to give it back to them?" In terms of grammatical consistency, especially when sentences have multiple nouns that a pronoun could refer to, I think that's a good point. Using he/him as a subject/object *or* they/them as a subject/object seems to make a lot of sense, rather than he/them or they/him. | ||
micronesia
United States24768 Posts
Although it made some good points, looking back, I think it's interesting that the book did not acknowledge anything other than two genders: male and female. I haven't read it in twenty years so it's possible I'm forgetting something. At least in the U.S., the idea that gender is more complex than born male or born female didn't make it outside of some very limited circles until fairly recently. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10876 Posts
On July 06 2023 19:07 Slydie wrote: On the topic of language, I think German is the worst in terms of gender, but their mistake was forcing "in/innen" as female professional titles. Now, written German is an ugly mess where "musiker*innen" is the with the star officially forced standard. Simply saying that "musiker" is a gender neutral term like "musician" is in English would have solved the problem much more elegantly. I strongly dislike constructed pronouns as well. English is fortunate to have "they/them" already, but that is not the case for every language. The issue is that "er" is a masculin ending in german. So the proponents of these changes didn't want to go with this. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On July 06 2023 21:56 Acrofales wrote: Genuine curiosity. Why are your pronouns he/them and not he/they? I mean. I self-identity as a man and would not be offended if someone referred to me as "they", but it would be weird if you phrased a sentence as: "he needs that book back tomorrow, so can you please remember to give it back to them?" That may be, but it's not that you need to use the proper mix of pronouns in any given sentence, it's that any of them are OK by that person. It's the same as the idea that a bisexual person does not need to be dating both a man and a woman at the same time in order to be a bisexual. They're just down for either one at a given moment. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18264 Posts
On July 06 2023 23:12 NewSunshine wrote: That may be, but it's not that you need to use the proper mix of pronouns in any given sentence, it's that any of them are OK by that person. It's the same as the idea that a bisexual person does not need to be dating both a man and a woman at the same time in order to be a bisexual. They're just down for either one at a given moment. Yeah, I understood that. But if it's a list, why not just list them all in subject form, rather than the second one in object form, which gives the impression that if I say I identify as he/them, I want to be called "he" if I am the subject of the sentence, but "them" if I am the object. If I were to list my pronouns as he/they, wouldn't that be clearer in showing that I am happy to be referred to as either he or they, or as an object, as him or them? | ||
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