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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
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On July 05 2023 03:04 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2023 02:21 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 15:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 14:34 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 11:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 11:10 gobbledydook wrote:On July 04 2023 10:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 09:58 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 06:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 02:13 BlackJack wrote:
@Rayzda yes, I forgot to mention that the other caveat for MTF athletes competing in women’s sports besides them not being allowed to win is that there needs to be locker room accommodations made for women that may not feel comfortable undressing in front of someone with a penis. Can't anyone feel uncomfortable undressing in front of anyone, though? It's not like having a penis means you're going to harass or abuse someone with a vagina, and if you feel uncomfortable because you see a penis or a vagina then you could also just stop looking at it. Cis-women could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of trans-women... or other cis-women... or men... or non-binary people. Straight men could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of gay men or other straight men. Why not just allow locker rooms to have changing stalls with locked doors, similar to fitting rooms at clothing stores, so that anyone who wants privacy while changing can have it? Pretty much every department store I've shopped at has a single, unisex fitting area, rather than a "men's only" fitting room and a "women's only" fitting room. (This is also why I think unisex bathrooms are totally fine as well: because people can do their private, vulnerable business safely behind a locked door, and if an attack was going to happen, the sign in front of the bathroom / locker room isn't going to stop an actual predator anyway.) Why even have men and women’s locker rooms at all? Why not allow cisgendered men into womens locker rooms? As you said, just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean he is going to abuse someone with a vagina. Yes. That's exactly the point I was making, by having unisex areas with solo private changing rooms/showers for anyone who feels uncomfortable around others (regardless of sex, gender, sexual orientation, race, etc.). If you're scared of black people, or men, or gay people, or old people, or anyone else, you can use a safe, private space. You don't even need to explain why you want privacy or which demographic offends/worries you! (Not "you" personally; I mean its general use.) The main problem with this solution is space. If you have a lot of floor space, you can afford to build individual unisex toilets and changing rooms. If you operate on a small property, for example in the inner city, then you have to choose between inclusiveness and a long queue at the toilet. I think having enough space might be a valid practical concern in some areas. That being said, penises being scary is not a valid ethical concern imo. I don’t know what ethical concern means in this context but penises being scary probably is a valid concern for many women. People with penises commit the vast majority of murders, rapes, sexual assaults, voyeurism, etc. The cavalier attitude of “just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean they are going to assault you” comes off as tone-deaf to very real issues that women have to deal with. If only I had suggested safe, private, single-person stalls, and preemptively underlined it because I had a feeling you'd ignore it. Anyone can use them, from sexists to sexual assault victims. No explanation needed. You suggested single-person stalls, which may or may not be practical, while also being generally dismissive of whether women should be concerned with penises in their spaces. The stalls themselves have nothing to do with whether women should or shouldn’t be concerned with penises. If you can't handle the existence of other peoples' genitals then that's a problem that you should work on, not a demand that society must cater to.
In a perfect world that would be nice, and maybe someday that could be possible. But now? Unisex locker rooms would surely just create a horrible environment for women. Don't you think men would go to the women's locker rooms to masturbate? Take pictures? Make inappropriate advances?
Sexual harassment is already a big problem in these places; we have in particular had a lot of problems in Sweden with gangs of young men harassing people in public baths and I know many women already don't feel safe in these spaces. Letting such gangs into the women's locker rooms? Forget about it. I'm positive the vast majority of women in Sweden would simply stop go to public baths all together.
And more generally, I'm quite sure the vast majority of women don't feel comfortable getting undressed in front of unknown men. I do think it is the kind of thing society should cater to... since catering to the wants and needs of its inhabitants is what society is for.
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United States44230 Posts
On July 05 2023 06:09 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2023 03:04 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 02:21 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 15:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 14:34 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 11:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 11:10 gobbledydook wrote:On July 04 2023 10:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 09:58 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 06:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
Can't anyone feel uncomfortable undressing in front of anyone, though? It's not like having a penis means you're going to harass or abuse someone with a vagina, and if you feel uncomfortable because you see a penis or a vagina then you could also just stop looking at it. Cis-women could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of trans-women... or other cis-women... or men... or non-binary people. Straight men could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of gay men or other straight men. Why not just allow locker rooms to have changing stalls with locked doors, similar to fitting rooms at clothing stores, so that anyone who wants privacy while changing can have it? Pretty much every department store I've shopped at has a single, unisex fitting area, rather than a "men's only" fitting room and a "women's only" fitting room. (This is also why I think unisex bathrooms are totally fine as well: because people can do their private, vulnerable business safely behind a locked door, and if an attack was going to happen, the sign in front of the bathroom / locker room isn't going to stop an actual predator anyway.) Why even have men and women’s locker rooms at all? Why not allow cisgendered men into womens locker rooms? As you said, just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean he is going to abuse someone with a vagina. Yes. That's exactly the point I was making, by having unisex areas with solo private changing rooms/showers for anyone who feels uncomfortable around others (regardless of sex, gender, sexual orientation, race, etc.). If you're scared of black people, or men, or gay people, or old people, or anyone else, you can use a safe, private space. You don't even need to explain why you want privacy or which demographic offends/worries you! (Not "you" personally; I mean its general use.) The main problem with this solution is space. If you have a lot of floor space, you can afford to build individual unisex toilets and changing rooms. If you operate on a small property, for example in the inner city, then you have to choose between inclusiveness and a long queue at the toilet. I think having enough space might be a valid practical concern in some areas. That being said, penises being scary is not a valid ethical concern imo. I don’t know what ethical concern means in this context but penises being scary probably is a valid concern for many women. People with penises commit the vast majority of murders, rapes, sexual assaults, voyeurism, etc. The cavalier attitude of “just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean they are going to assault you” comes off as tone-deaf to very real issues that women have to deal with. If only I had suggested safe, private, single-person stalls, and preemptively underlined it because I had a feeling you'd ignore it. Anyone can use them, from sexists to sexual assault victims. No explanation needed. You suggested single-person stalls, which may or may not be practical, while also being generally dismissive of whether women should be concerned with penises in their spaces. The stalls themselves have nothing to do with whether women should or shouldn’t be concerned with penises. If you can't handle the existence of other peoples' genitals then that's a problem that you should work on, not a demand that society must cater to. In a perfect world that would be nice, and maybe someday that could be possible. But now? Unisex locker rooms would surely just create a horrible environment for women. Don't you think men would go to the women's locker rooms to masturbate? Take pictures? Make inappropriate advances? Sexual harassment is already a big problem in these places; we have in particular had a lot of problems in Sweden with gangs of young men harassing people in public baths and I know many women already don't feel safe in these spaces. Letting such gangs into the women's locker rooms? Forget about it. I'm positive the vast majority of women in Sweden would simply stop go to public baths all together. And more generally, I'm quite sure the vast majority of women don't feel comfortable getting undressed in front of unknown men. I do think it is the kind of thing society should cater to... since catering to the wants and needs of its inhabitants is what society is for.
If there aren’t crowds of gay men openly masturbating and taking photos in men’s changing rooms then why would there be crowds of straight men masturbating and taking photos in a mixed room? Are the gays that much better than the straights?
I identify as straight and I wouldn’t take photos. Would you?
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On July 05 2023 06:44 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2023 06:09 Elroi wrote:On July 05 2023 03:04 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 02:21 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 15:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 14:34 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 11:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 11:10 gobbledydook wrote:On July 04 2023 10:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 09:58 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
Why even have men and women’s locker rooms at all? Why not allow cisgendered men into womens locker rooms? As you said, just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean he is going to abuse someone with a vagina.
Yes. That's exactly the point I was making, by having unisex areas with solo private changing rooms/showers for anyone who feels uncomfortable around others (regardless of sex, gender, sexual orientation, race, etc.). If you're scared of black people, or men, or gay people, or old people, or anyone else, you can use a safe, private space. You don't even need to explain why you want privacy or which demographic offends/worries you! (Not "you" personally; I mean its general use.) The main problem with this solution is space. If you have a lot of floor space, you can afford to build individual unisex toilets and changing rooms. If you operate on a small property, for example in the inner city, then you have to choose between inclusiveness and a long queue at the toilet. I think having enough space might be a valid practical concern in some areas. That being said, penises being scary is not a valid ethical concern imo. I don’t know what ethical concern means in this context but penises being scary probably is a valid concern for many women. People with penises commit the vast majority of murders, rapes, sexual assaults, voyeurism, etc. The cavalier attitude of “just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean they are going to assault you” comes off as tone-deaf to very real issues that women have to deal with. If only I had suggested safe, private, single-person stalls, and preemptively underlined it because I had a feeling you'd ignore it. Anyone can use them, from sexists to sexual assault victims. No explanation needed. You suggested single-person stalls, which may or may not be practical, while also being generally dismissive of whether women should be concerned with penises in their spaces. The stalls themselves have nothing to do with whether women should or shouldn’t be concerned with penises. If you can't handle the existence of other peoples' genitals then that's a problem that you should work on, not a demand that society must cater to. In a perfect world that would be nice, and maybe someday that could be possible. But now? Unisex locker rooms would surely just create a horrible environment for women. Don't you think men would go to the women's locker rooms to masturbate? Take pictures? Make inappropriate advances? Sexual harassment is already a big problem in these places; we have in particular had a lot of problems in Sweden with gangs of young men harassing people in public baths and I know many women already don't feel safe in these spaces. Letting such gangs into the women's locker rooms? Forget about it. I'm positive the vast majority of women in Sweden would simply stop go to public baths all together. And more generally, I'm quite sure the vast majority of women don't feel comfortable getting undressed in front of unknown men. I do think it is the kind of thing society should cater to... since catering to the wants and needs of its inhabitants is what society is for. If there aren’t crowds of gay men openly masturbating and taking photos in men’s changing rooms then why would there be crowds of straight men masturbating and taking photos in a mixed room? Are the gays that much better than the straights? I identify as straight and I wouldn’t take photos. Would you?
Don't you get it? We can't allow men to be around women because a bunch of Trump supporters need to have a safe space for their misogynistic locker room talk. And let's just forget about the fact that private stalls would exist...
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Northern Ireland27251 Posts
On July 05 2023 06:09 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2023 03:04 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 02:21 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 15:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 14:34 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 11:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 11:10 gobbledydook wrote:On July 04 2023 10:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 09:58 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 06:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
Can't anyone feel uncomfortable undressing in front of anyone, though? It's not like having a penis means you're going to harass or abuse someone with a vagina, and if you feel uncomfortable because you see a penis or a vagina then you could also just stop looking at it. Cis-women could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of trans-women... or other cis-women... or men... or non-binary people. Straight men could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of gay men or other straight men. Why not just allow locker rooms to have changing stalls with locked doors, similar to fitting rooms at clothing stores, so that anyone who wants privacy while changing can have it? Pretty much every department store I've shopped at has a single, unisex fitting area, rather than a "men's only" fitting room and a "women's only" fitting room. (This is also why I think unisex bathrooms are totally fine as well: because people can do their private, vulnerable business safely behind a locked door, and if an attack was going to happen, the sign in front of the bathroom / locker room isn't going to stop an actual predator anyway.) Why even have men and women’s locker rooms at all? Why not allow cisgendered men into womens locker rooms? As you said, just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean he is going to abuse someone with a vagina. Yes. That's exactly the point I was making, by having unisex areas with solo private changing rooms/showers for anyone who feels uncomfortable around others (regardless of sex, gender, sexual orientation, race, etc.). If you're scared of black people, or men, or gay people, or old people, or anyone else, you can use a safe, private space. You don't even need to explain why you want privacy or which demographic offends/worries you! (Not "you" personally; I mean its general use.) The main problem with this solution is space. If you have a lot of floor space, you can afford to build individual unisex toilets and changing rooms. If you operate on a small property, for example in the inner city, then you have to choose between inclusiveness and a long queue at the toilet. I think having enough space might be a valid practical concern in some areas. That being said, penises being scary is not a valid ethical concern imo. I don’t know what ethical concern means in this context but penises being scary probably is a valid concern for many women. People with penises commit the vast majority of murders, rapes, sexual assaults, voyeurism, etc. The cavalier attitude of “just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean they are going to assault you” comes off as tone-deaf to very real issues that women have to deal with. If only I had suggested safe, private, single-person stalls, and preemptively underlined it because I had a feeling you'd ignore it. Anyone can use them, from sexists to sexual assault victims. No explanation needed. You suggested single-person stalls, which may or may not be practical, while also being generally dismissive of whether women should be concerned with penises in their spaces. The stalls themselves have nothing to do with whether women should or shouldn’t be concerned with penises. If you can't handle the existence of other peoples' genitals then that's a problem that you should work on, not a demand that society must cater to. In a perfect world that would be nice, and maybe someday that could be possible. But now? Unisex locker rooms would surely just create a horrible environment for women. Don't you think men would go to the women's locker rooms to masturbate? Take pictures? Make inappropriate advances? Sexual harassment is already a big problem in these places; we have in particular had a lot of problems in Sweden with gangs of young men harassing people in public baths and I know many women already don't feel safe in these spaces. Letting such gangs into the women's locker rooms? Forget about it. I'm positive the vast majority of women in Sweden would simply stop go to public baths all together. And more generally, I'm quite sure the vast majority of women don't feel comfortable getting undressed in front of unknown men. I do think it is the kind of thing society should cater to... since catering to the wants and needs of its inhabitants is what society is for.
Who here has suggested getting undressed in full view of unknown men?
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On July 05 2023 02:21 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2023 15:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 14:34 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 11:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 11:10 gobbledydook wrote:On July 04 2023 10:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 09:58 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 06:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 02:13 BlackJack wrote:
@Rayzda yes, I forgot to mention that the other caveat for MTF athletes competing in women’s sports besides them not being allowed to win is that there needs to be locker room accommodations made for women that may not feel comfortable undressing in front of someone with a penis. Can't anyone feel uncomfortable undressing in front of anyone, though? It's not like having a penis means you're going to harass or abuse someone with a vagina, and if you feel uncomfortable because you see a penis or a vagina then you could also just stop looking at it. Cis-women could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of trans-women... or other cis-women... or men... or non-binary people. Straight men could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of gay men or other straight men. Why not just allow locker rooms to have changing stalls with locked doors, similar to fitting rooms at clothing stores, so that anyone who wants privacy while changing can have it? Pretty much every department store I've shopped at has a single, unisex fitting area, rather than a "men's only" fitting room and a "women's only" fitting room. (This is also why I think unisex bathrooms are totally fine as well: because people can do their private, vulnerable business safely behind a locked door, and if an attack was going to happen, the sign in front of the bathroom / locker room isn't going to stop an actual predator anyway.) Why even have men and women’s locker rooms at all? Why not allow cisgendered men into womens locker rooms? As you said, just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean he is going to abuse someone with a vagina. Yes. That's exactly the point I was making, by having unisex areas with solo private changing rooms/showers for anyone who feels uncomfortable around others (regardless of sex, gender, sexual orientation, race, etc.). If you're scared of black people, or men, or gay people, or old people, or anyone else, you can use a safe, private space. You don't even need to explain why you want privacy or which demographic offends/worries you! (Not "you" personally; I mean its general use.) The main problem with this solution is space. If you have a lot of floor space, you can afford to build individual unisex toilets and changing rooms. If you operate on a small property, for example in the inner city, then you have to choose between inclusiveness and a long queue at the toilet. I think having enough space might be a valid practical concern in some areas. That being said, penises being scary is not a valid ethical concern imo. I don’t know what ethical concern means in this context but penises being scary probably is a valid concern for many women. People with penises commit the vast majority of murders, rapes, sexual assaults, voyeurism, etc. The cavalier attitude of “just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean they are going to assault you” comes off as tone-deaf to very real issues that women have to deal with. If only I had suggested safe, private, single-person stalls, and preemptively underlined it because I had a feeling you'd ignore it. Anyone can use them, from sexists to sexual assault victims. No explanation needed. You suggested single-person stalls, which may or may not be practical, while also being generally dismissive of whether women should be concerned with penises in their spaces. The stalls themselves have nothing to do with whether women should or shouldn’t be concerned with penises.
Can you please elaborate on why you believe that having single-person changing room stalls "has nothing to do with" women's feelings / everyone's perceived or real vulnerabilities? The single-person stalls were suggested as a way to directly address those very issues, and so far there doesn't seem to be a significant counterpoint as to why they wouldn't work in practice (especially given the fact that they currently work just fine in any department stores or other areas that use them). Do you mean that single-person stalls don't address the underlying systemic issues against women and other demographics that need to be fixed? Because sure, I agree that it doesn't, but neither does keeping men and women separate.
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United States44230 Posts
On July 05 2023 07:00 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2023 06:09 Elroi wrote:On July 05 2023 03:04 KwarK wrote:On July 05 2023 02:21 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 15:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 14:34 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 11:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 11:10 gobbledydook wrote:On July 04 2023 10:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 09:58 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
Why even have men and women’s locker rooms at all? Why not allow cisgendered men into womens locker rooms? As you said, just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean he is going to abuse someone with a vagina.
Yes. That's exactly the point I was making, by having unisex areas with solo private changing rooms/showers for anyone who feels uncomfortable around others (regardless of sex, gender, sexual orientation, race, etc.). If you're scared of black people, or men, or gay people, or old people, or anyone else, you can use a safe, private space. You don't even need to explain why you want privacy or which demographic offends/worries you! (Not "you" personally; I mean its general use.) The main problem with this solution is space. If you have a lot of floor space, you can afford to build individual unisex toilets and changing rooms. If you operate on a small property, for example in the inner city, then you have to choose between inclusiveness and a long queue at the toilet. I think having enough space might be a valid practical concern in some areas. That being said, penises being scary is not a valid ethical concern imo. I don’t know what ethical concern means in this context but penises being scary probably is a valid concern for many women. People with penises commit the vast majority of murders, rapes, sexual assaults, voyeurism, etc. The cavalier attitude of “just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean they are going to assault you” comes off as tone-deaf to very real issues that women have to deal with. If only I had suggested safe, private, single-person stalls, and preemptively underlined it because I had a feeling you'd ignore it. Anyone can use them, from sexists to sexual assault victims. No explanation needed. You suggested single-person stalls, which may or may not be practical, while also being generally dismissive of whether women should be concerned with penises in their spaces. The stalls themselves have nothing to do with whether women should or shouldn’t be concerned with penises. If you can't handle the existence of other peoples' genitals then that's a problem that you should work on, not a demand that society must cater to. In a perfect world that would be nice, and maybe someday that could be possible. But now? Unisex locker rooms would surely just create a horrible environment for women. Don't you think men would go to the women's locker rooms to masturbate? Take pictures? Make inappropriate advances? Sexual harassment is already a big problem in these places; we have in particular had a lot of problems in Sweden with gangs of young men harassing people in public baths and I know many women already don't feel safe in these spaces. Letting such gangs into the women's locker rooms? Forget about it. I'm positive the vast majority of women in Sweden would simply stop go to public baths all together. And more generally, I'm quite sure the vast majority of women don't feel comfortable getting undressed in front of unknown men. I do think it is the kind of thing society should cater to... since catering to the wants and needs of its inhabitants is what society is for. Who here has suggested getting undressed in full view of unknown men?
I mean that's already what I do at the gym so I'm suggesting it.
I don't love it but it's not the end of the world either.
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As mentioned here a few times already, this discussion lacks input from the people whose safety - real or imagined, depending on your point of view - you're discussing here.
Probably the ideal but unrealistic way would be to ask women what do they prefer.
And if 90% say they want or 90% say they don't want unisex lockers/bathrooms/whatever, I guess that's what should be done, right?... as it's about their feelings of safety and comfort.
But then again, what if poll shows 50/50? Or 60/40, or 40/60? Who decides whose opinions are more important and whose concerns should be ignored?
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So if, say, I'll go to women's bathroom and they are not happy to see me there, I can safely tell them their opinions/feelings don't matter, only mine do? Because if they don't want to see me there they are bigots and they can't tell me where I should be allowed to?
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United States44230 Posts
On July 05 2023 07:41 ZeroByte13 wrote:
So if, say, I'll go to women's bathroom and they are not happy to see me there, I can safely tell them their opinions/feelings don't matter, only mine do? Because if they don't want to see me there they are bigots and they can't tell me where I should be allowed to?
The women's bathroom is for women. You're presumably not one so you're not allowed in there. Same as if there was an employees only sign on the door.
If you go into the mixed bathroom and the women in there aren't happy to see you there then you can safely tell them that their opinions don't matter. Not because only your opinions matter, not theirs, but because you're entitled to the use of that space.
I don't know where you people come up with these strawmen. Of course men aren't allowed where they're not allowed.
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On July 05 2023 07:41 JimmiC wrote:
edit: and whats your proposed solution anyway? To be honest, I don't know.
I personally have nothing against either unisex bathrooms or seing FtM trans folks in the men's rooms.
But I'm happenned to be a male and I never felt threatened by presence of female when I'm naked/vulnerable.
I heard many times from people I met personally and all over the internet that many women fear men and they need their safe spaces. Because even though I have all reasons to consider myself to be polite and completely harmless to them, they don't know that and might feel threatened by my presence regardless.
So, unless I've been lied to by all these women, a mere presence of a male (or male-looking) person in such a place (bathroom, elevator) might be uncomfortable for many women.
That's why I often won't enter an elevator if there's a lone woman/girl there (unless I know them), especially if they don't look super-confident - as I learned, this might be uncomfortable for them, and it doesn't kill me to wait a bit or use stairs.
But if I'm wrong and this actually doesn't (often) happen - sure, "everyone can use any bathroom" is a good solution.
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On July 05 2023 08:00 KwarK wrote:
Of course men aren't allowed where they're not allowed. What if tomorrow I say I'm a woman - and maybe I actually feel like one, I mean who out of the people in the bathroom can prove I'm not one... - am I allowed now?
To the women in the bathroom there's absolutely no visual difference between the day before and the day after, I look the same and behave the same.
Is it about who I think/say I am or who I'm passing as?
Do opinions of the women in that bathroom about this matter at any point, or is it strictly about "identify as female = allowed to female bathroom"?
These are sincere questions, in a good faith.
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United States44230 Posts
On July 05 2023 08:13 ZeroByte13 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2023 08:00 KwarK wrote:
Of course men aren't allowed where they're not allowed. What if tomorrow I say I'm a woman - and maybe I actually feel like one, I mean who out of the people in the bathroom can prove I'm not one... - am I allowed now? To the women in the bathroom there's absolutely no difference between the day before and the day after, I look the same and behave the same. Is it about who I think/say I am or who I'm passing as? This is a sincere question, in a good faith.
What does your ID say?
Legally changing your gender is a serious time and effort commitment that involves years of medical treatment, invasive operations, a lot of societal discrimination, and frequently rejection and exile from your friend and family circle. People don't do it on a whim.
So no, in that situation they would go to the staff and say that there's a man in the women's bathrooms though presumably all you'd be doing in there is taking a shit or whatever. If you weren't making a scene I would expect a member of staff to tell you not to do that and that'd be the end of it, regardless of whether or not you were trans. Men shitting in the women's bathroom isn't actually illegal, it's perfectly reasonable if you have to go and there's an issue with the men's or whatever. The motive matters.
If you were taking photos or whatever then that'd be illegal regardless of whether you were trans. Cis women can't go taking upskirts in bathrooms.
If you protested and insisted you were trans I'd expect they'd ask to see your ID and would learn that you weren't trans, you were just an asshole. In this instance you're completely male passing, your legal gender would be male, and you'd obviously not be trans so your motive would be purely bad faith. Trans people don't do what you're describing.
But this is all completely absurd. It doesn't happen.
If you decided to make a point and spend years of work tricking doctors into cutting off your dick or whatever then legally changed your gender and made it into the bathrooms only to announce that you were just pretending to be trans then more power to you I guess.
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On July 05 2023 08:26 KwarK wrote:
What does your ID say? Err, no public bathroom I've ever used so far asked me for an ID. Is this a thing in US? o_O
On July 05 2023 08:00 JimmiC wrote:
To BlackJack, Elroi, ZeroByte13 and any other conservatives who are mad about this. I'm absolutely NOT mad about this, like at all. I'm not personally affected by this in any way, and as I said above I'm ok with either solution.
I'm asking questions in good faith because I want to understand, not because I am mad or not happy with anything.
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But I never said or implied it was about how I feel. I feel indifferent because I'm not the one (potentially) affected.
My question was - do we know what women feel, are they ok (e.g. feel safe) with seeing male-looking people in their bathroom or lockers?
I heard from a few that they would not be happy with this, but it's an anecdotical evidence, of course. Maybe absolute majority are ok, then my concerns are based on a wrong premise.
Unless your position is "if you're not upset personally, shut up".
Then it was a pointless conversation, of course, and I'm sorry about wasting everyone's time.
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EPT
