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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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Some random dude made the video and one of his campaign accounts reposted it. Stupid, but it's not like this was a campaign sanctioned/filmed thing they are paying to show people. It's just a Twitter thing.
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United States45488 Posts
On July 04 2023 11:10 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2023 10:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 09:58 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 06:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 02:13 BlackJack wrote:
@Rayzda yes, I forgot to mention that the other caveat for MTF athletes competing in women’s sports besides them not being allowed to win is that there needs to be locker room accommodations made for women that may not feel comfortable undressing in front of someone with a penis. Can't anyone feel uncomfortable undressing in front of anyone, though? It's not like having a penis means you're going to harass or abuse someone with a vagina, and if you feel uncomfortable because you see a penis or a vagina then you could also just stop looking at it. Cis-women could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of trans-women... or other cis-women... or men... or non-binary people. Straight men could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of gay men or other straight men. Why not just allow locker rooms to have changing stalls with locked doors, similar to fitting rooms at clothing stores, so that anyone who wants privacy while changing can have it? Pretty much every department store I've shopped at has a single, unisex fitting area, rather than a "men's only" fitting room and a "women's only" fitting room. (This is also why I think unisex bathrooms are totally fine as well: because people can do their private, vulnerable business safely behind a locked door, and if an attack was going to happen, the sign in front of the bathroom / locker room isn't going to stop an actual predator anyway.) Why even have men and women’s locker rooms at all? Why not allow cisgendered men into womens locker rooms? As you said, just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean he is going to abuse someone with a vagina. Yes. That's exactly the point I was making, by having unisex areas with solo private changing rooms/showers for anyone who feels uncomfortable around others (regardless of sex, gender, sexual orientation, race, etc.). If you're scared of black people, or men, or gay people, or old people, or anyone else, you can use a safe, private space. You don't even need to explain why you want privacy or which demographic offends/worries you! (Not "you" personally; I mean its general use.) The main problem with this solution is space. If you have a lot of floor space, you can afford to build individual unisex toilets and changing rooms. If you operate on a small property, for example in the inner city, then you have to choose between inclusiveness and a long queue at the toilet.
I think having enough space might be a valid practical concern in some areas. That being said, penises being scary is not a valid ethical concern imo.
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I watched the video. I think whoever is responsible for it being retweeted didn’t watch the whole thing. I think they could tell it was attacking trump for his support of LGBTQ people and considered that a worthwhile attack. It’s not just that the video is remarkably bigoted, it’s that the video quality etc is very poor and flat out low quality.
But I do think it showed trump expressing kindness towards LGBTQ people was considered a good and valid way to attack him
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On July 04 2023 11:18 Introvert wrote:
Some random dude made the video and one of his campaign accounts reposted it. Stupid, but it's not like this was a campaign sanctioned/filmed thing they are paying to show people. It's just a Twitter thing.
So are you team DeSantis? You like what you’ve been seeing over there? It’s pretty early obviously, you don’t have to have made up your mind yet but I’m curious how you’re viewing the upcoming primary.
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On July 04 2023 11:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2023 11:10 gobbledydook wrote:On July 04 2023 10:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 09:58 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 06:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 02:13 BlackJack wrote:
@Rayzda yes, I forgot to mention that the other caveat for MTF athletes competing in women’s sports besides them not being allowed to win is that there needs to be locker room accommodations made for women that may not feel comfortable undressing in front of someone with a penis. Can't anyone feel uncomfortable undressing in front of anyone, though? It's not like having a penis means you're going to harass or abuse someone with a vagina, and if you feel uncomfortable because you see a penis or a vagina then you could also just stop looking at it. Cis-women could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of trans-women... or other cis-women... or men... or non-binary people. Straight men could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of gay men or other straight men. Why not just allow locker rooms to have changing stalls with locked doors, similar to fitting rooms at clothing stores, so that anyone who wants privacy while changing can have it? Pretty much every department store I've shopped at has a single, unisex fitting area, rather than a "men's only" fitting room and a "women's only" fitting room. (This is also why I think unisex bathrooms are totally fine as well: because people can do their private, vulnerable business safely behind a locked door, and if an attack was going to happen, the sign in front of the bathroom / locker room isn't going to stop an actual predator anyway.) Why even have men and women’s locker rooms at all? Why not allow cisgendered men into womens locker rooms? As you said, just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean he is going to abuse someone with a vagina. Yes. That's exactly the point I was making, by having unisex areas with solo private changing rooms/showers for anyone who feels uncomfortable around others (regardless of sex, gender, sexual orientation, race, etc.). If you're scared of black people, or men, or gay people, or old people, or anyone else, you can use a safe, private space. You don't even need to explain why you want privacy or which demographic offends/worries you! (Not "you" personally; I mean its general use.) The main problem with this solution is space. If you have a lot of floor space, you can afford to build individual unisex toilets and changing rooms. If you operate on a small property, for example in the inner city, then you have to choose between inclusiveness and a long queue at the toilet. I think having enough space might be a valid practical concern in some areas. That being said, penises being scary is not a valid ethical concern imo.
I don’t know what ethical concern means in this context but penises being scary probably is a valid concern for many women. People with penises commit the vast majority of murders, rapes, sexual assaults, voyeurism, etc. The cavalier attitude of “just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean they are going to assault you” comes off as tone-deaf to very real issues that women have to deal with.
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On July 04 2023 14:14 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2023 11:18 Introvert wrote:
Some random dude made the video and one of his campaign accounts reposted it. Stupid, but it's not like this was a campaign sanctioned/filmed thing they are paying to show people. It's just a Twitter thing. So are you team DeSantis? You like what you’ve been seeing over there? It’s pretty early obviously, you don’t have to have made up your mind yet but I’m curious how you’re viewing the upcoming primary.
Yes, I've had one eye on him since he was in the House (to say I was following his doings would be too strong). I think he's trying a different way to win the primary, since the "avoid Trump" and "attack Trump for everything" ways both have a record of failure. My understand based on what has been reported is that DeSantis is focused on the slow and steady and doing well in the first few states, which I remind everyone, will not be for a while (and Trump lost Iowa last time). Trump has a lot of supporters, and apparently what his is trying to do is essentially win enough of them to his side. So rather than deride them, or attack Trump in a way that seems like an attack on his supporters, he wants to convince them, and all Republicans, that he is the best person for the job and the best candidate to beat Biden. I don't know if it will work, but he actually has a record (as Trump does now too) so I suppose it's worth trying. It'd be nice if he could run his Florida general election campaign already, but he has to beat Trump in a GOP primary first. It's just a hard position, I might do things differently at the margins but then again I don't need to be persuaded away from Trump so who knows lol
Apparently they are going to start focusing more on Biden's failures soon and maybe highlight his competence. Because that's one reason I do really like him (for a politician at least), he has a stellar record without any squishiness, he's very smart, and maybe most importantly knows what he believes and can articulate it coherently. How long have conservatives wanted someone with all three of those things! Normally best you can hope for is 2/3, or be Ted Cruz, but that comes with its own problems (Ted being Ted is actually his biggest obstacle).
There's a saying that "Democrats fall in love, Republican's fall in line." Dems normally need to have an emotional connection to their candidates (Bill Clinton, Obama, all the way back to JFK) while the GOP... picks John McCain and Mitt Romney. So it'd be nice to have a candidate/president conservative Republicans could actually feel confident about rather than settle on.
So yes I think he *could* be the best, most conservative president we've had in decades, and I hope that by the time February arrives enough GOP voters decide that just because Trump is hated by the right people doesn't mean he's the best choice.
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Interesting. We might agree on a couple things about Ted Cruz, at least.
I do think it’s kind of a big problem that DeSantis fans’ excuse has to keep being “just wait, later on he’s actually gonna show us something good.” Like, his peak in the polls was months ago, and we kept hearing “well he hasn’t even announced yet.” Then the announcement was about as big a train wreck as you could ask for. I’m still basically hearing “Just wait, he hasn’t really gotten started yet, you’ll see.” Meanwhile everything from him has been these extremely niche culture war issues, you know, gas stoves and pizza ovens and punishing Disney.
Is the theory that that stuff is actually going to resonate with average voters? Or is his campaign gonna put down Twitter and talk about, y’know, normal political issues when the time comes? When is that, by the way?
Obviously I’m not rooting for the guy, IMO he’s shown a greater enthusiasm than anyone besides, like, Matt Walsh for weaponizing absolutely every aspect of public life against perceived enemies. But as an outside observer I also just can’t fathom the political strategy behind the campaign I’m watching unfold.
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United States45488 Posts
On July 04 2023 14:34 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2023 11:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 11:10 gobbledydook wrote:On July 04 2023 10:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 09:58 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 06:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 02:13 BlackJack wrote:
@Rayzda yes, I forgot to mention that the other caveat for MTF athletes competing in women’s sports besides them not being allowed to win is that there needs to be locker room accommodations made for women that may not feel comfortable undressing in front of someone with a penis. Can't anyone feel uncomfortable undressing in front of anyone, though? It's not like having a penis means you're going to harass or abuse someone with a vagina, and if you feel uncomfortable because you see a penis or a vagina then you could also just stop looking at it. Cis-women could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of trans-women... or other cis-women... or men... or non-binary people. Straight men could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of gay men or other straight men. Why not just allow locker rooms to have changing stalls with locked doors, similar to fitting rooms at clothing stores, so that anyone who wants privacy while changing can have it? Pretty much every department store I've shopped at has a single, unisex fitting area, rather than a "men's only" fitting room and a "women's only" fitting room. (This is also why I think unisex bathrooms are totally fine as well: because people can do their private, vulnerable business safely behind a locked door, and if an attack was going to happen, the sign in front of the bathroom / locker room isn't going to stop an actual predator anyway.) Why even have men and women’s locker rooms at all? Why not allow cisgendered men into womens locker rooms? As you said, just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean he is going to abuse someone with a vagina. Yes. That's exactly the point I was making, by having unisex areas with solo private changing rooms/showers for anyone who feels uncomfortable around others (regardless of sex, gender, sexual orientation, race, etc.). If you're scared of black people, or men, or gay people, or old people, or anyone else, you can use a safe, private space. You don't even need to explain why you want privacy or which demographic offends/worries you! (Not "you" personally; I mean its general use.) The main problem with this solution is space. If you have a lot of floor space, you can afford to build individual unisex toilets and changing rooms. If you operate on a small property, for example in the inner city, then you have to choose between inclusiveness and a long queue at the toilet. I think having enough space might be a valid practical concern in some areas. That being said, penises being scary is not a valid ethical concern imo. I don’t know what ethical concern means in this context but penises being scary probably is a valid concern for many women. People with penises commit the vast majority of murders, rapes, sexual assaults, voyeurism, etc. The cavalier attitude of “just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean they are going to assault you” comes off as tone-deaf to very real issues that women have to deal with.
If only I had suggested safe, private, single-person stalls, and preemptively underlined it because I had a feeling you'd ignore it. Anyone can use them, from sexists to sexual assault victims. No explanation needed.
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Norway28785 Posts
On July 04 2023 15:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2023 14:34 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 11:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 11:10 gobbledydook wrote:On July 04 2023 10:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 09:58 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 06:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 02:13 BlackJack wrote:
@Rayzda yes, I forgot to mention that the other caveat for MTF athletes competing in women’s sports besides them not being allowed to win is that there needs to be locker room accommodations made for women that may not feel comfortable undressing in front of someone with a penis. Can't anyone feel uncomfortable undressing in front of anyone, though? It's not like having a penis means you're going to harass or abuse someone with a vagina, and if you feel uncomfortable because you see a penis or a vagina then you could also just stop looking at it. Cis-women could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of trans-women... or other cis-women... or men... or non-binary people. Straight men could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of gay men or other straight men. Why not just allow locker rooms to have changing stalls with locked doors, similar to fitting rooms at clothing stores, so that anyone who wants privacy while changing can have it? Pretty much every department store I've shopped at has a single, unisex fitting area, rather than a "men's only" fitting room and a "women's only" fitting room. (This is also why I think unisex bathrooms are totally fine as well: because people can do their private, vulnerable business safely behind a locked door, and if an attack was going to happen, the sign in front of the bathroom / locker room isn't going to stop an actual predator anyway.) Why even have men and women’s locker rooms at all? Why not allow cisgendered men into womens locker rooms? As you said, just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean he is going to abuse someone with a vagina. Yes. That's exactly the point I was making, by having unisex areas with solo private changing rooms/showers for anyone who feels uncomfortable around others (regardless of sex, gender, sexual orientation, race, etc.). If you're scared of black people, or men, or gay people, or old people, or anyone else, you can use a safe, private space. You don't even need to explain why you want privacy or which demographic offends/worries you! (Not "you" personally; I mean its general use.) The main problem with this solution is space. If you have a lot of floor space, you can afford to build individual unisex toilets and changing rooms. If you operate on a small property, for example in the inner city, then you have to choose between inclusiveness and a long queue at the toilet. I think having enough space might be a valid practical concern in some areas. That being said, penises being scary is not a valid ethical concern imo. I don’t know what ethical concern means in this context but penises being scary probably is a valid concern for many women. People with penises commit the vast majority of murders, rapes, sexual assaults, voyeurism, etc. The cavalier attitude of “just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean they are going to assault you” comes off as tone-deaf to very real issues that women have to deal with. If only I had suggested safe, private, single-person stalls, and preemptively underlined it because I had a feeling you'd ignore it. Anyone can use them, from sexists to sexual assault victims. No explanation needed.
Yeah but you also agree that this might not be practically viable some places for space reasons, so presumably a solution must be found there too.
Tbh I guess this is the euro in me speaking but personally I wish we just looked to Finland and normalized nudity instead. But in the US I'm guessing that is a bigger hurdle than turning every public locker room into single stalls. 
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On July 04 2023 11:10 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2023 10:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 09:58 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 06:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 02:13 BlackJack wrote:
@Rayzda yes, I forgot to mention that the other caveat for MTF athletes competing in women’s sports besides them not being allowed to win is that there needs to be locker room accommodations made for women that may not feel comfortable undressing in front of someone with a penis. Can't anyone feel uncomfortable undressing in front of anyone, though? It's not like having a penis means you're going to harass or abuse someone with a vagina, and if you feel uncomfortable because you see a penis or a vagina then you could also just stop looking at it. Cis-women could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of trans-women... or other cis-women... or men... or non-binary people. Straight men could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of gay men or other straight men. Why not just allow locker rooms to have changing stalls with locked doors, similar to fitting rooms at clothing stores, so that anyone who wants privacy while changing can have it? Pretty much every department store I've shopped at has a single, unisex fitting area, rather than a "men's only" fitting room and a "women's only" fitting room. (This is also why I think unisex bathrooms are totally fine as well: because people can do their private, vulnerable business safely behind a locked door, and if an attack was going to happen, the sign in front of the bathroom / locker room isn't going to stop an actual predator anyway.) Why even have men and women’s locker rooms at all? Why not allow cisgendered men into womens locker rooms? As you said, just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean he is going to abuse someone with a vagina. Yes. That's exactly the point I was making, by having unisex areas with solo private changing rooms/showers for anyone who feels uncomfortable around others (regardless of sex, gender, sexual orientation, race, etc.). If you're scared of black people, or men, or gay people, or old people, or anyone else, you can use a safe, private space. You don't even need to explain why you want privacy or which demographic offends/worries you! (Not "you" personally; I mean its general use.) The main problem with this solution is space. If you have a lot of floor space, you can afford to build individual unisex toilets and changing rooms. If you operate on a small property, for example in the inner city, then you have to choose between inclusiveness and a long queue at the toilet.
Making unisex bathrooms / showers is actually saving space and helping to reduce queues. And there can always be someone who behaves like an ass. Penis or no penis. Shared bathroom or no shared bathroom
Example A at the club. Mostly there is a queue at womens, the mens is half empty.
Example B at the football stadium. Mens queue is huge, womens is completely empty
EDIT: At this point I think we are agreed that the baseline is safe, private, single-person stalls
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On July 04 2023 16:01 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2023 11:10 gobbledydook wrote:On July 04 2023 10:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 09:58 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 06:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 02:13 BlackJack wrote:
@Rayzda yes, I forgot to mention that the other caveat for MTF athletes competing in women’s sports besides them not being allowed to win is that there needs to be locker room accommodations made for women that may not feel comfortable undressing in front of someone with a penis. Can't anyone feel uncomfortable undressing in front of anyone, though? It's not like having a penis means you're going to harass or abuse someone with a vagina, and if you feel uncomfortable because you see a penis or a vagina then you could also just stop looking at it. Cis-women could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of trans-women... or other cis-women... or men... or non-binary people. Straight men could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of gay men or other straight men. Why not just allow locker rooms to have changing stalls with locked doors, similar to fitting rooms at clothing stores, so that anyone who wants privacy while changing can have it? Pretty much every department store I've shopped at has a single, unisex fitting area, rather than a "men's only" fitting room and a "women's only" fitting room. (This is also why I think unisex bathrooms are totally fine as well: because people can do their private, vulnerable business safely behind a locked door, and if an attack was going to happen, the sign in front of the bathroom / locker room isn't going to stop an actual predator anyway.) Why even have men and women’s locker rooms at all? Why not allow cisgendered men into womens locker rooms? As you said, just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean he is going to abuse someone with a vagina. Yes. That's exactly the point I was making, by having unisex areas with solo private changing rooms/showers for anyone who feels uncomfortable around others (regardless of sex, gender, sexual orientation, race, etc.). If you're scared of black people, or men, or gay people, or old people, or anyone else, you can use a safe, private space. You don't even need to explain why you want privacy or which demographic offends/worries you! (Not "you" personally; I mean its general use.) The main problem with this solution is space. If you have a lot of floor space, you can afford to build individual unisex toilets and changing rooms. If you operate on a small property, for example in the inner city, then you have to choose between inclusiveness and a long queue at the toilet. Making unisex bathrooms / showers is actually saving space and helping to reduce queues. And there can always be someone who behaves like an ass. Penis or no penis. Shared bathroom or no shared bathroom Example A at the club. Mostly there is a queue at womens, the mens is half empty. Example B at the football stadium. Mens queue is huge, womens is completely empty
Example A is in a large part due to urinals taking up less space than a stall. Replacing urinals with stalls would not reduce queues. I haven't studied it much, but I don't think there are fewer men than women at clubs (or festivals), nor do they need to pee less.
Example B is valid, but just because that *is* something men do in an overwhelming majority. You might as well use a Backstreet Boys concert. Both of those, a unisex bathroom would lead to fewer queues.
However, it doesn't do away with the space problem in example A situations. You can objectively fit more urinals in a bathroom than stalls. Would you put urinals in the unisex bathroom? Seems like having a urinal room might be a solution with the stalls shared? That seems like it could get the best of both worlds (because many women already go into the stalls in the men's bathroom in these cases).
That said, I don't think we can dismiss womens' safety concerns. And this being pretty much a male only thread on a male dominated website dedicated to a male dominated occupation, I don't think we have an adequate representation to discuss this valid and real concern. Because yes, having a penis is a huge statistical indicator that you are more likely to molest, rape or murder. And unlike skin color, there is actual causality involved here. Being afraid of men isn't bigoted, it's a natural response to mens' violence. Now whether the toilet is supposed to be a safe space is up for debate, but culturally right now, it is. So I'm not sure replacing gendered bathrooms is a better solution than just letting people choose which bathroom they want to use.
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Northern Ireland26572 Posts
On July 04 2023 08:04 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Like I can totally imagine that for a DeSantis 2024 Discord server, that ad can get a lot of laughs and people celebrating it. I think you're totally on point with them attempting to copy some of those can't stump the trump videos. But DeSantis can't beat Trump at being Trump and for him to try that is total suicide. He was supposed to try to execute Trump's popular policies without the idiocy - but instead he's doing Trump's idiocy without the (largely unfathomable but nevertheless undeniable) charm. Sharing this seems like a Howard Dean Scream. (Edit: I just actually looked at the video of that scream and.. wow. In today's climate, it looks entirely unfathomable that this was in any way whatsoever consequential. )
It is truly remarkable that that was seen as a gaffe capable of tanking a Presidential run looking back now!
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United States45488 Posts
On July 04 2023 15:57 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2023 15:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 14:34 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 11:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 11:10 gobbledydook wrote:On July 04 2023 10:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 09:58 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 06:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 02:13 BlackJack wrote:
@Rayzda yes, I forgot to mention that the other caveat for MTF athletes competing in women’s sports besides them not being allowed to win is that there needs to be locker room accommodations made for women that may not feel comfortable undressing in front of someone with a penis. Can't anyone feel uncomfortable undressing in front of anyone, though? It's not like having a penis means you're going to harass or abuse someone with a vagina, and if you feel uncomfortable because you see a penis or a vagina then you could also just stop looking at it. Cis-women could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of trans-women... or other cis-women... or men... or non-binary people. Straight men could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of gay men or other straight men. Why not just allow locker rooms to have changing stalls with locked doors, similar to fitting rooms at clothing stores, so that anyone who wants privacy while changing can have it? Pretty much every department store I've shopped at has a single, unisex fitting area, rather than a "men's only" fitting room and a "women's only" fitting room. (This is also why I think unisex bathrooms are totally fine as well: because people can do their private, vulnerable business safely behind a locked door, and if an attack was going to happen, the sign in front of the bathroom / locker room isn't going to stop an actual predator anyway.) Why even have men and women’s locker rooms at all? Why not allow cisgendered men into womens locker rooms? As you said, just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean he is going to abuse someone with a vagina. Yes. That's exactly the point I was making, by having unisex areas with solo private changing rooms/showers for anyone who feels uncomfortable around others (regardless of sex, gender, sexual orientation, race, etc.). If you're scared of black people, or men, or gay people, or old people, or anyone else, you can use a safe, private space. You don't even need to explain why you want privacy or which demographic offends/worries you! (Not "you" personally; I mean its general use.) The main problem with this solution is space. If you have a lot of floor space, you can afford to build individual unisex toilets and changing rooms. If you operate on a small property, for example in the inner city, then you have to choose between inclusiveness and a long queue at the toilet. I think having enough space might be a valid practical concern in some areas. That being said, penises being scary is not a valid ethical concern imo. I don’t know what ethical concern means in this context but penises being scary probably is a valid concern for many women. People with penises commit the vast majority of murders, rapes, sexual assaults, voyeurism, etc. The cavalier attitude of “just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean they are going to assault you” comes off as tone-deaf to very real issues that women have to deal with. If only I had suggested safe, private, single-person stalls, and preemptively underlined it because I had a feeling you'd ignore it. Anyone can use them, from sexists to sexual assault victims. No explanation needed. Yeah but you also agree that this might not be practically viable some places for space reasons, so presumably a solution must be found there too.
Tbh I guess this is the euro in me speaking but personally I wish we just looked to Finland and normalized nudity instead. But in the US I'm guessing that is a bigger hurdle than turning every public locker room into single stalls.
Well I'm trying to stay open-minded, but I honestly can't think of why it would be a problem. Can you? If there was only space for, say, two changing rooms/stalls, then of course it would be more optimal to make each one private unisex / for anyone, instead of forcing one to be for men and the other for women (to save time if two men show up, or two women). I can't think of a situation, even space-wise, where allowing anyone to access a private stall is inferior to making it male-only or female-only, and no one has presented an example yet. (In regards to fitting/ changing/ locker rooms, not bathrooms/ urinals.)
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On July 04 2023 16:20 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2023 16:01 Harris1st wrote:On July 04 2023 11:10 gobbledydook wrote:On July 04 2023 10:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 09:58 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 06:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 02:13 BlackJack wrote:
@Rayzda yes, I forgot to mention that the other caveat for MTF athletes competing in women’s sports besides them not being allowed to win is that there needs to be locker room accommodations made for women that may not feel comfortable undressing in front of someone with a penis. Can't anyone feel uncomfortable undressing in front of anyone, though? It's not like having a penis means you're going to harass or abuse someone with a vagina, and if you feel uncomfortable because you see a penis or a vagina then you could also just stop looking at it. Cis-women could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of trans-women... or other cis-women... or men... or non-binary people. Straight men could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of gay men or other straight men. Why not just allow locker rooms to have changing stalls with locked doors, similar to fitting rooms at clothing stores, so that anyone who wants privacy while changing can have it? Pretty much every department store I've shopped at has a single, unisex fitting area, rather than a "men's only" fitting room and a "women's only" fitting room. (This is also why I think unisex bathrooms are totally fine as well: because people can do their private, vulnerable business safely behind a locked door, and if an attack was going to happen, the sign in front of the bathroom / locker room isn't going to stop an actual predator anyway.) Why even have men and women’s locker rooms at all? Why not allow cisgendered men into womens locker rooms? As you said, just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean he is going to abuse someone with a vagina. Yes. That's exactly the point I was making, by having unisex areas with solo private changing rooms/showers for anyone who feels uncomfortable around others (regardless of sex, gender, sexual orientation, race, etc.). If you're scared of black people, or men, or gay people, or old people, or anyone else, you can use a safe, private space. You don't even need to explain why you want privacy or which demographic offends/worries you! (Not "you" personally; I mean its general use.) The main problem with this solution is space. If you have a lot of floor space, you can afford to build individual unisex toilets and changing rooms. If you operate on a small property, for example in the inner city, then you have to choose between inclusiveness and a long queue at the toilet. Making unisex bathrooms / showers is actually saving space and helping to reduce queues. And there can always be someone who behaves like an ass. Penis or no penis. Shared bathroom or no shared bathroom Example A at the club. Mostly there is a queue at womens, the mens is half empty. Example B at the football stadium. Mens queue is huge, womens is completely empty Example A is in a large part due to urinals taking up less space than a stall. Replacing urinals with stalls would not reduce queues. I haven't studied it much, but I don't think there are fewer men than women at clubs (or festivals), nor do they need to pee less. Example B is valid, but just because that *is* something men do in an overwhelming majority. You might as well use a Backstreet Boys concert. Both of those, a unisex bathroom would lead to fewer queues. However, it doesn't do away with the space problem in example A situations. You can objectively fit more urinals in a bathroom than stalls. Would you put urinals in the unisex bathroom? Seems like having a urinal room might be a solution with the stalls shared? That seems like it could get the best of both worlds (because many women already go into the stalls in the men's bathroom in these cases). That said, I don't think we can dismiss womens' safety concerns. And this being pretty much a male only thread on a male dominated website dedicated to a male dominated occupation, I don't think we have an adequate representation to discuss this valid and real concern. Because yes, having a penis is a huge statistical indicator that you are more likely to molest, rape or murder. And unlike skin color, there is actual causality involved here. Being afraid of men isn't bigoted, it's a natural response to mens' violence. Now whether the toilet is supposed to be a safe space is up for debate, but culturally right now, it is. So I'm not sure replacing gendered bathrooms is a better solution than just letting people choose which bathroom they want to use.
I am a big fan of Urinals and think that Urinals should definitively be part of the solution. No only because of the space concerns, but also because of the time. In the time one person goes into a stall, closes the door, lowers pants, sits down, pees, fstands up again, flushes, pulls pants up, opens tthe door and leaves, three penis-people can use a urinal. You also don't have to touch anything, which is a big plus in a public bathroom. It would be silly to ignore that, especially since a lot of penis people are very happy using urinals.
I don't know the perfect solution, but i am pretty sure it involves urinals. I think the rest should be left to asking people what they actually prefer. Because i don't really care. 95% of the time, i want a urinal. I also want to have the option to take a shit in the rare cases i need to. So my position is: Urinals should be there, and some stall that i can enter should need be. The rest i don't really care about and am very willing to leave the decision to the people to whom it is important.
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On July 04 2023 16:20 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2023 16:01 Harris1st wrote:On July 04 2023 11:10 gobbledydook wrote:On July 04 2023 10:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 09:58 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 06:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 02:13 BlackJack wrote:
@Rayzda yes, I forgot to mention that the other caveat for MTF athletes competing in women’s sports besides them not being allowed to win is that there needs to be locker room accommodations made for women that may not feel comfortable undressing in front of someone with a penis. Can't anyone feel uncomfortable undressing in front of anyone, though? It's not like having a penis means you're going to harass or abuse someone with a vagina, and if you feel uncomfortable because you see a penis or a vagina then you could also just stop looking at it. Cis-women could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of trans-women... or other cis-women... or men... or non-binary people. Straight men could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of gay men or other straight men. Why not just allow locker rooms to have changing stalls with locked doors, similar to fitting rooms at clothing stores, so that anyone who wants privacy while changing can have it? Pretty much every department store I've shopped at has a single, unisex fitting area, rather than a "men's only" fitting room and a "women's only" fitting room. (This is also why I think unisex bathrooms are totally fine as well: because people can do their private, vulnerable business safely behind a locked door, and if an attack was going to happen, the sign in front of the bathroom / locker room isn't going to stop an actual predator anyway.) Why even have men and women’s locker rooms at all? Why not allow cisgendered men into womens locker rooms? As you said, just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean he is going to abuse someone with a vagina. Yes. That's exactly the point I was making, by having unisex areas with solo private changing rooms/showers for anyone who feels uncomfortable around others (regardless of sex, gender, sexual orientation, race, etc.). If you're scared of black people, or men, or gay people, or old people, or anyone else, you can use a safe, private space. You don't even need to explain why you want privacy or which demographic offends/worries you! (Not "you" personally; I mean its general use.) The main problem with this solution is space. If you have a lot of floor space, you can afford to build individual unisex toilets and changing rooms. If you operate on a small property, for example in the inner city, then you have to choose between inclusiveness and a long queue at the toilet. Making unisex bathrooms / showers is actually saving space and helping to reduce queues. And there can always be someone who behaves like an ass. Penis or no penis. Shared bathroom or no shared bathroom Example A at the club. Mostly there is a queue at womens, the mens is half empty. Example B at the football stadium. Mens queue is huge, womens is completely empty Example A is in a large part due to urinals taking up less space than a stall. Replacing urinals with stalls would not reduce queues. I haven't studied it much, but I don't think there are fewer men than women at clubs (or festivals), nor do they need to pee less. Example B is valid, but just because that *is* something men do in an overwhelming majority. You might as well use a Backstreet Boys concert. Both of those, a unisex bathroom would lead to fewer queues. However, it doesn't do away with the space problem in example A situations. You can objectively fit more urinals in a bathroom than stalls. Would you put urinals in the unisex bathroom? Seems like having a urinal room might be a solution with the stalls shared? That seems like it could get the best of both worlds (because many women already go into the stalls in the men's bathroom in these cases). That said, I don't think we can dismiss womens' safety concerns. And this being pretty much a male only thread on a male dominated website dedicated to a male dominated occupation, I don't think we have an adequate representation to discuss this valid and real concern. Because yes, having a penis is a huge statistical indicator that you are more likely to molest, rape or murder. And unlike skin color, there is actual causality involved here. Being afraid of men isn't bigoted, it's a natural response to mens' violence. Now whether the toilet is supposed to be a safe space is up for debate, but culturally right now, it is. So I'm not sure replacing gendered bathrooms is a better solution than just letting people choose which bathroom they want to use.
Obviously there are more examples to be had but I thought I leave it at 2.
To example A: Yes I think urinals allow for faster bathroom breaks but I think in this instance it's also that a lot of women refresh their makeup ot something along those lines. Women can pee damn quickly if they have to.
With less massive walls necessary there could be some extra stalls
For safety issues I can only imagine having a sort of bouncer in the sink room.
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Isn't "freshing up" mainly a movie thing (or code for coke...)?
I went to plenty of Clubs and stuff during my time and this just basically never was a thing.
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Norway28785 Posts
On July 04 2023 16:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2023 15:57 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 04 2023 15:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 14:34 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 11:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 11:10 gobbledydook wrote:On July 04 2023 10:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 09:58 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 06:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 02:13 BlackJack wrote:
@Rayzda yes, I forgot to mention that the other caveat for MTF athletes competing in women’s sports besides them not being allowed to win is that there needs to be locker room accommodations made for women that may not feel comfortable undressing in front of someone with a penis. Can't anyone feel uncomfortable undressing in front of anyone, though? It's not like having a penis means you're going to harass or abuse someone with a vagina, and if you feel uncomfortable because you see a penis or a vagina then you could also just stop looking at it. Cis-women could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of trans-women... or other cis-women... or men... or non-binary people. Straight men could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of gay men or other straight men. Why not just allow locker rooms to have changing stalls with locked doors, similar to fitting rooms at clothing stores, so that anyone who wants privacy while changing can have it? Pretty much every department store I've shopped at has a single, unisex fitting area, rather than a "men's only" fitting room and a "women's only" fitting room. (This is also why I think unisex bathrooms are totally fine as well: because people can do their private, vulnerable business safely behind a locked door, and if an attack was going to happen, the sign in front of the bathroom / locker room isn't going to stop an actual predator anyway.) Why even have men and women’s locker rooms at all? Why not allow cisgendered men into womens locker rooms? As you said, just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean he is going to abuse someone with a vagina. Yes. That's exactly the point I was making, by having unisex areas with solo private changing rooms/showers for anyone who feels uncomfortable around others (regardless of sex, gender, sexual orientation, race, etc.). If you're scared of black people, or men, or gay people, or old people, or anyone else, you can use a safe, private space. You don't even need to explain why you want privacy or which demographic offends/worries you! (Not "you" personally; I mean its general use.) The main problem with this solution is space. If you have a lot of floor space, you can afford to build individual unisex toilets and changing rooms. If you operate on a small property, for example in the inner city, then you have to choose between inclusiveness and a long queue at the toilet. I think having enough space might be a valid practical concern in some areas. That being said, penises being scary is not a valid ethical concern imo. I don’t know what ethical concern means in this context but penises being scary probably is a valid concern for many women. People with penises commit the vast majority of murders, rapes, sexual assaults, voyeurism, etc. The cavalier attitude of “just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean they are going to assault you” comes off as tone-deaf to very real issues that women have to deal with. If only I had suggested safe, private, single-person stalls, and preemptively underlined it because I had a feeling you'd ignore it. Anyone can use them, from sexists to sexual assault victims. No explanation needed. Yeah but you also agree that this might not be practically viable some places for space reasons, so presumably a solution must be found there too.
Tbh I guess this is the euro in me speaking but personally I wish we just looked to Finland and normalized nudity instead. But in the US I'm guessing that is a bigger hurdle than turning every public locker room into single stalls. Well I'm trying to stay open-minded, but I honestly can't think of why it would be a problem. Can you? If there was only space for, say, two changing rooms/stalls, then of course it would be more optimal to make each one private unisex / for anyone, instead of forcing one to be for men and the other for women (to save time if two men show up, or two women). I can't think of a situation, even space-wise, where allowing anyone to access a private stall is inferior to making it male-only or female-only, and no one has presented an example yet. (In regards to fitting/ changing/ locker rooms, not bathrooms/ urinals.)
I think the bathroom issue is essentially a made up issue and that just letting people use their preferred one solves it. Maybe pre-op mtf trans people will have to just.. be a bit cautious about it and realize that some women might be uncomfortable with a penis in just that setting, so for example doing the beach style changing under a towel might be reasonable. I fully expect this to already be the case, tbh. I understand that this might place an unfair burden on a vulnerable group, but again, even accepting the goal of changing every changing room and public shower into single stalls, it's a long time until that is a reality and an interim solution must be had.
But again, I think the reason why this seems like a significant topic in the US while it, spoiler alert hasn't been something I've ever seen up for debate in norway, isn't just that one party has turned it into political theater, but also that nudity for some reason is considered obscene by enough people for this political theater to be viable. I'm a bit more of a hippie in this regard, I guess. Giant public unisex changing rooms and showers are actually a preference over single stalls, to me, and from a sexual assault perspective I'm also not sure the latter is any safer. (Every time I hear of a night club rape, it happened in a single stall bathroom, while, at least to me, it seems less likely to happen in a public setting.)
Again, though, cultural differences are real, I guess, and hard to change. I'll happily concede that this is probably something that has to be introduced from a young age.
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On July 04 2023 16:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2023 15:57 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 04 2023 15:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 14:34 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 11:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 11:10 gobbledydook wrote:On July 04 2023 10:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 09:58 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 06:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 02:13 BlackJack wrote:
@Rayzda yes, I forgot to mention that the other caveat for MTF athletes competing in women’s sports besides them not being allowed to win is that there needs to be locker room accommodations made for women that may not feel comfortable undressing in front of someone with a penis. Can't anyone feel uncomfortable undressing in front of anyone, though? It's not like having a penis means you're going to harass or abuse someone with a vagina, and if you feel uncomfortable because you see a penis or a vagina then you could also just stop looking at it. Cis-women could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of trans-women... or other cis-women... or men... or non-binary people. Straight men could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of gay men or other straight men. Why not just allow locker rooms to have changing stalls with locked doors, similar to fitting rooms at clothing stores, so that anyone who wants privacy while changing can have it? Pretty much every department store I've shopped at has a single, unisex fitting area, rather than a "men's only" fitting room and a "women's only" fitting room. (This is also why I think unisex bathrooms are totally fine as well: because people can do their private, vulnerable business safely behind a locked door, and if an attack was going to happen, the sign in front of the bathroom / locker room isn't going to stop an actual predator anyway.) Why even have men and women’s locker rooms at all? Why not allow cisgendered men into womens locker rooms? As you said, just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean he is going to abuse someone with a vagina. Yes. That's exactly the point I was making, by having unisex areas with solo private changing rooms/showers for anyone who feels uncomfortable around others (regardless of sex, gender, sexual orientation, race, etc.). If you're scared of black people, or men, or gay people, or old people, or anyone else, you can use a safe, private space. You don't even need to explain why you want privacy or which demographic offends/worries you! (Not "you" personally; I mean its general use.) The main problem with this solution is space. If you have a lot of floor space, you can afford to build individual unisex toilets and changing rooms. If you operate on a small property, for example in the inner city, then you have to choose between inclusiveness and a long queue at the toilet. I think having enough space might be a valid practical concern in some areas. That being said, penises being scary is not a valid ethical concern imo. I don’t know what ethical concern means in this context but penises being scary probably is a valid concern for many women. People with penises commit the vast majority of murders, rapes, sexual assaults, voyeurism, etc. The cavalier attitude of “just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean they are going to assault you” comes off as tone-deaf to very real issues that women have to deal with. If only I had suggested safe, private, single-person stalls, and preemptively underlined it because I had a feeling you'd ignore it. Anyone can use them, from sexists to sexual assault victims. No explanation needed. Yeah but you also agree that this might not be practically viable some places for space reasons, so presumably a solution must be found there too.
Tbh I guess this is the euro in me speaking but personally I wish we just looked to Finland and normalized nudity instead. But in the US I'm guessing that is a bigger hurdle than turning every public locker room into single stalls. Well I'm trying to stay open-minded, but I honestly can't think of why it would be a problem. Can you? If there was only space for, say, two changing rooms/stalls, then of course it would be more optimal to make each one private unisex / for anyone, instead of forcing one to be for men and the other for women (to save time if two men show up, or two women). I can't think of a situation, even space-wise, where allowing anyone to access a private stall is inferior to making it male-only or female-only, and no one has presented an example yet. (In regards to fitting/ changing/ locker rooms, not bathrooms/ urinals.)
Space wise I think easiest would be showers - you will be hard pressed to find more efficient setting than (sex based) shared shower leading to shared changing room (basically bunch of lockers and a bench).
On July 04 2023 11:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2023 11:10 gobbledydook wrote:On July 04 2023 10:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 09:58 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 06:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 02:13 BlackJack wrote:
@Rayzda yes, I forgot to mention that the other caveat for MTF athletes competing in women’s sports besides them not being allowed to win is that there needs to be locker room accommodations made for women that may not feel comfortable undressing in front of someone with a penis. Can't anyone feel uncomfortable undressing in front of anyone, though? It's not like having a penis means you're going to harass or abuse someone with a vagina, and if you feel uncomfortable because you see a penis or a vagina then you could also just stop looking at it. Cis-women could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of trans-women... or other cis-women... or men... or non-binary people. Straight men could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of gay men or other straight men. Why not just allow locker rooms to have changing stalls with locked doors, similar to fitting rooms at clothing stores, so that anyone who wants privacy while changing can have it? Pretty much every department store I've shopped at has a single, unisex fitting area, rather than a "men's only" fitting room and a "women's only" fitting room. (This is also why I think unisex bathrooms are totally fine as well: because people can do their private, vulnerable business safely behind a locked door, and if an attack was going to happen, the sign in front of the bathroom / locker room isn't going to stop an actual predator anyway.) Why even have men and women’s locker rooms at all? Why not allow cisgendered men into womens locker rooms? As you said, just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean he is going to abuse someone with a vagina. Yes. That's exactly the point I was making, by having unisex areas with solo private changing rooms/showers for anyone who feels uncomfortable around others (regardless of sex, gender, sexual orientation, race, etc.). If you're scared of black people, or men, or gay people, or old people, or anyone else, you can use a safe, private space. You don't even need to explain why you want privacy or which demographic offends/worries you! (Not "you" personally; I mean its general use.) The main problem with this solution is space. If you have a lot of floor space, you can afford to build individual unisex toilets and changing rooms. If you operate on a small property, for example in the inner city, then you have to choose between inclusiveness and a long queue at the toilet. I think having enough space might be a valid practical concern in some areas. That being said, penises being scary is not a valid ethical concern imo.
I think you misrepresent the issue here - we not talking about penis phobia, but about women feeling vulnerable.
On July 04 2023 06:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2023 02:13 BlackJack wrote:
@Rayzda yes, I forgot to mention that the other caveat for MTF athletes competing in women’s sports besides them not being allowed to win is that there needs to be locker room accommodations made for women that may not feel comfortable undressing in front of someone with a penis. Can't anyone feel uncomfortable undressing in front of anyone, though? It's not like having a penis means you're going to harass or abuse someone with a vagina, and if you feel uncomfortable because you see a penis or a vagina then you could also just stop looking at it. Cis-women could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of trans-women... or other cis-women... or men... or non-binary people. Straight men could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of gay men or other straight men. Why not just allow locker rooms to have changing stalls with locked doors, similar to fitting rooms at clothing stores, so that anyone who wants privacy while changing can have it? Pretty much every department store I've shopped at has a single, unisex fitting area, rather than a "men's only" fitting room and a "women's only" fitting room. (This is also why I think unisex bathrooms are totally fine as well: because people can do their private, vulnerable business safely behind a locked door, and if an attack was going to happen, the sign in front of the bathroom / locker room isn't going to stop an actual predator anyway.)
Bolded - issue is not seeing somebody naked, but being naked in front of somebody of opposite sex.
Another issue is that women toilets, showers, changing rooms are women safe spaces, by making all of them unisex, you effectively take them away from women.
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United States45488 Posts
On July 04 2023 19:24 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2023 16:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 15:57 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 04 2023 15:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 14:34 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 11:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 11:10 gobbledydook wrote:On July 04 2023 10:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 04 2023 09:58 BlackJack wrote:On July 04 2023 06:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
Can't anyone feel uncomfortable undressing in front of anyone, though? It's not like having a penis means you're going to harass or abuse someone with a vagina, and if you feel uncomfortable because you see a penis or a vagina then you could also just stop looking at it. Cis-women could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of trans-women... or other cis-women... or men... or non-binary people. Straight men could feel uncomfortable undressing in front of gay men or other straight men. Why not just allow locker rooms to have changing stalls with locked doors, similar to fitting rooms at clothing stores, so that anyone who wants privacy while changing can have it? Pretty much every department store I've shopped at has a single, unisex fitting area, rather than a "men's only" fitting room and a "women's only" fitting room. (This is also why I think unisex bathrooms are totally fine as well: because people can do their private, vulnerable business safely behind a locked door, and if an attack was going to happen, the sign in front of the bathroom / locker room isn't going to stop an actual predator anyway.) Why even have men and women’s locker rooms at all? Why not allow cisgendered men into womens locker rooms? As you said, just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean he is going to abuse someone with a vagina. Yes. That's exactly the point I was making, by having unisex areas with solo private changing rooms/showers for anyone who feels uncomfortable around others (regardless of sex, gender, sexual orientation, race, etc.). If you're scared of black people, or men, or gay people, or old people, or anyone else, you can use a safe, private space. You don't even need to explain why you want privacy or which demographic offends/worries you! (Not "you" personally; I mean its general use.) The main problem with this solution is space. If you have a lot of floor space, you can afford to build individual unisex toilets and changing rooms. If you operate on a small property, for example in the inner city, then you have to choose between inclusiveness and a long queue at the toilet. I think having enough space might be a valid practical concern in some areas. That being said, penises being scary is not a valid ethical concern imo. I don’t know what ethical concern means in this context but penises being scary probably is a valid concern for many women. People with penises commit the vast majority of murders, rapes, sexual assaults, voyeurism, etc. The cavalier attitude of “just because someone has a penis doesn’t mean they are going to assault you” comes off as tone-deaf to very real issues that women have to deal with. If only I had suggested safe, private, single-person stalls, and preemptively underlined it because I had a feeling you'd ignore it. Anyone can use them, from sexists to sexual assault victims. No explanation needed. Yeah but you also agree that this might not be practically viable some places for space reasons, so presumably a solution must be found there too.
Tbh I guess this is the euro in me speaking but personally I wish we just looked to Finland and normalized nudity instead. But in the US I'm guessing that is a bigger hurdle than turning every public locker room into single stalls. Well I'm trying to stay open-minded, but I honestly can't think of why it would be a problem. Can you? If there was only space for, say, two changing rooms/stalls, then of course it would be more optimal to make each one private unisex / for anyone, instead of forcing one to be for men and the other for women (to save time if two men show up, or two women). I can't think of a situation, even space-wise, where allowing anyone to access a private stall is inferior to making it male-only or female-only, and no one has presented an example yet. (In regards to fitting/ changing/ locker rooms, not bathrooms/ urinals.) I think the bathroom issue is essentially a made up issue and that just letting people use their preferred one solves it. Maybe pre-op mtf trans people will have to just.. be a bit cautious about it and realize that some women might be uncomfortable with a penis in just that setting, so for example doing the beach style changing under a towel might be reasonable. I fully expect this to already be the case, tbh. I understand that this might place an unfair burden on a vulnerable group, but again, even accepting the goal of changing every changing room and public shower into single stalls, it's a long time until that is a reality and an interim solution must be had. But again, I think the reason why this seems like a significant topic in the US while it, spoiler alert hasn't been something I've ever seen up for debate in norway, isn't just that one party has turned it into political theater, but also that nudity for some reason is considered obscene by enough people for this political theater to be viable. I'm a bit more of a hippie in this regard, I guess. Giant public unisex changing rooms and showers are actually a preference over single stalls, to me, and from a sexual assault perspective I'm also not sure the latter is any safer. (Every time I hear of a night club rape, it happened in a single stall bathroom, while, at least to me, it seems less likely to happen in a public setting.) Again, though, cultural differences are real, I guess, and hard to change. I'll happily concede that this is probably something that has to be introduced from a young age.
I think you bring up a great point; Americans are incredibly prude and it's taboo to ever see naked anything. Seeing a penis = You're in danger, apparently, whereas normalizing the human body would likely benefit everyone. I feel like this is also connected to how backwards some people are on the topic of sex education in middle/high school, where they think that abstinence-only education is ideal and not talking about nudity or sex means those things can't occur.
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EPT
