EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 3597
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Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
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Zambrah
United States7384 Posts
On April 25 2022 03:30 Starlightsun wrote: I wouldn't call it absolute strongest when they need 100% votes, plus have to change the rules to go around the filibuster, just to pass anything. It's ridiculous that there are two parties who must have complete ideological purity in order to "win" over the other. Talk about completely unrepresentative of a country so large and diverse as the US. I was referring to their supermajority/president Obama period which is one of the strongest periods Democrats have had in a long time and all they managed to get was the extremely mediocre ACA which insurance companies and Republicans shat all over. Even when Democrats have lots of power they're just god awful about using it for meaningful good, partially because of incompetence (letting Republicans in on the process despite them not voting for it) and partially out of corruption (letting insurance companies in on it.) | ||
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brian
United States9632 Posts
i don’t know how anyone looks at the legislation in the last ten years and thinks either: - republicans haven’t delivered -or that the dems have i’m not looking to entirely short change democratic leadership. sure small tokens that some might call valuable legislation have made some modicum of impact. they’ve taken a victory lap or two. but from where i’m sitting, not even remotely as effectively as their republican counter parts. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23469 Posts
On April 25 2022 01:05 LegalLord wrote: The long and short of it is that Democrats have a trust problem, rightfully earned, because they've rarely if ever actually fulfilled the promises they've made to the working class to make things better. No amount of victim blaming or excuses for lack of progress can hide that. 60+ years of promising to address racial economic inequality between Black and white people with absolutely no progress (most indications are that it is actually worse now) is an unacceptable failure of irredeemable proportions no matter how much people want to blame Republicans (or broad coalitions) for Democrat impotence. Never mind Democrats have been failing to even secure the voting rights of their most consistently overwhelmingly supportive voters. On April 25 2022 03:32 Zambrah wrote: I was referring to their supermajority/president Obama period which is one of the strongest periods Democrats have had in a long time and all they managed to get was the extremely mediocre ACA which insurance companies and Republicans shat all over. Even when Democrats have lots of power they're just god awful about using it for meaningful good, partially because out of incompetence (letting Republicans in on the process despite them not voting for it) and partially out of corruption (letting insurance companies in on it.) A Republican healthcare plan that enshrined profits for insurance companies into law no less. Not that its depravity stops Democrats from claiming it as their highest achievement | ||
KwarK
United States43220 Posts
On April 25 2022 01:47 Doc.Rivers wrote: Plenty of dem presidents have made empty promises to the working class. It's very far from clear cut that trump was promising a unicorn while his opposition was promising a solution. Obama promised the entire world to his voters (hint, he was lying to get elected) and didn't deliver much. Obama got healthcare to tens of millions of uninsured Americans. Why do you just come to this topic and lie about these things over and over? Do you think that nobody will remember the ACA? | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21953 Posts
On April 25 2022 01:54 Zambrah wrote: Because, again, the problem Democrats face when trying to govern is that they represent a very very broad coalition of different philosophies.And the results are the same. And we've seen, even with a super majority in congress Democrats will only put forward extremely compromised legislation. They're, at their absolute strongest, still weak shit. A coalition as broad as the Democrats in any other democracy would also struggle to get anything done. And to be fair, I certainly would not call the ACA weak shit. It wasn't as good as we might want, but its as good as America can get done it seems. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On April 25 2022 01:54 Zambrah wrote: And the results are the same. And we've seen, even with a super majority in congress Democrats will only put forward extremely compromised legislation. They're, at their absolute strongest, still weak shit. The results aren't the same. Democrats with super majority + WH, you get the ACA. Democrats with ordinary majority + WH, you get the American Rescue Plan, which substantially affected the bottom line of households like mine (direct Covid relief and the CTC). Split between White House and Congress, you get no major legislation. Republicans with ordinary majority + WH, you get massive tax breaks for the rich (ACA nearly repealed). Republicans with super majority + WH --- fortunately we haven't seen this since before Obama at least Both parties spend money, but the results are different. Democrats make health care less expensive and improve the bottom line of working families. Republicans cut taxes on the rich. They're opposite approaches and they do actually happen in practice. Even if you wish the ACA did more, as we both do, it is just not true that the results are the same regardless of who's in power. | ||
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Introvert
United States4862 Posts
On April 25 2022 04:03 KwarK wrote: Obama got healthcare to tens of millions of uninsured Americans. Why do you just come to this topic and lie about these things over and over? Do you think that nobody will remember the ACA? Obama also promised the millions of people who were (rightfully, it turns out) worried about losing their own plans that they could keep them. This blatant lie is part of what gave Democrats in 2010 one of the biggest losses in history. I've seen a number of people come out the Obama years more jaded and cynical. People believed the hype that Obama sold them. Combine that with him being president gaslight and he deserves all the derision he gets and more. He failed to live up to this high-flying rhetoric. "This was the moment" lmao + Show Spoiler + | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15725 Posts
On April 25 2022 04:24 Djabanete wrote: The results aren't the same. Democrats with super majority + WH, you get the ACA. Democrats with ordinary majority + WH, you get the American Rescue Plan, which substantially affected the bottom line of households like mine (direct Covid relief and the CTC). Split between White House and Congress, you get no major legislation. Republicans with ordinary majority + WH, you get massive tax breaks for the rich (ACA nearly repealed). Republicans with super majority + WH --- fortunately we haven't seen this since before Obama at least Both parties spend money, but the results are different. Democrats make health care less expensive and improve the bottom line of working families. Republicans cut taxes on the rich. They're opposite approaches and they do actually happen in practice. Even if you wish the ACA did more, as we both do, it is just not true that the results are the same regardless of who's in power. To put it into simple terms, Republicans are so unified compared to Democrats that even a simple majority + WH ensures their whole agenda can pretty much get passed other than fringe stuff. In a world where Democrats were as united as republicans, BBB would have passed. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11630 Posts
"Do they get stuff done" and "Do I like the stuff they get done" I think it is very obvious that the republicans are good at getting stuff done. The stuff they get done is usually shitty and evil, but they do get it done. And there is often quite a lot of overlap between what they do and what they promised. (With the addition of lots of money for the rich, which they do but do not promise). They fight against abortion, against gay rights, for more racism and so forth. And they fight hard and dirty for these goals. Meanwhile, the democrats seem to have a much harder time getting stuff done. Half the time, stuff that they try to do doesn't seem to manifest at all due to some Manchin or something like that. And the stuff they do get done is usually some lukewarm middle ground. Much better than the evil shit of the republicans, but far from really amazing. Instead of public healthcare, you get ACA. Things like that. Sure, ACA is okay, and better than not having it. But compared to what you could have, it is not that amazing. The results are not the same, but I don't really feel that enthusiastic about democrats. They feel like a party of shitty status quo minimal action. Which is better than what the republicans want. But it would be nice if americans actually had a party that would move them towards good goals. | ||
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Introvert
United States4862 Posts
On April 25 2022 04:30 Mohdoo wrote: To put it into simple terms, Republicans are so unified compared to Democrats that even a simple majority + WH ensures their whole agenda can pretty much get passed other than fringe stuff. In a world where Democrats were as united as republicans, BBB would have passed. This is one of my favorite genres of internet lefty post, that Republicans are always so united. It's like people forget they had bigger majorities in 2017-18 then dems do now and only got a tax bill passed that they had worked down to be relatively moderate, all things considered. GOP has Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski (though AK is a red state). Dems have Manchin. But Dems also have blue senators in red states (MT and OH) but they still tow the party line. | ||
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Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
On April 25 2022 03:32 Zambrah wrote: I was referring to their supermajority/president Obama period which is one of the strongest periods Democrats have had in a long time and all they managed to get was the extremely mediocre ACA which insurance companies and Republicans shat all over. Even when Democrats have lots of power they're just god awful about using it for meaningful good, partially because of incompetence (letting Republicans in on the process despite them not voting for it) and partially out of corruption (letting insurance companies in on it.) Oh sorry my mistake. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21953 Posts
On April 25 2022 04:30 Mohdoo wrote: That is a stretch. We got plenty of reports about Republicans fighting among themselves and not being able to get anything other then the tax cut passed because the traditional Republicans were fighting with the Tea Party.To put it into simple terms, Republicans are so unified compared to Democrats that even a simple majority + WH ensures their whole agenda can pretty much get passed other than fringe stuff. In a world where Democrats were as united as republicans, BBB would have passed. They are unified in their opposition of Democrats, but not in governing themselves. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15725 Posts
On April 25 2022 04:36 Introvert wrote: This is one of my favorite genres of internet lefty post, that Republicans are always so united. It's like people forget they had bigger majorities in 2017-18 then dems do now and only got a tax bill passed that they had worked down to be relatively moderate, all things considered. GOP has Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski (though AK is a red state). Dems have Manchin. But Dems also have blue senators in red states (MT and OH) but they still tow the party line. I think part of why what I’m saying sounds outrageous is where you draw the line of what is sufficiently conservative. Taking a few steps back and ignoring that nuance, would you at least agree republicans get more stuff done than democrats? Using your example of tea party crazies, the bill ends up passing. Republican BBB would have passed. | ||
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Sadist
United States7291 Posts
On April 25 2022 04:30 Introvert wrote: Obama also promised the millions of people who were (rightfully, it turns out) worried about losing their own plans that they could keep them. This blatant lie is part of what gave Democrats in 2010 one of the biggest losses in history. I've seen a number of people come out the Obama years more jaded and cynical. People believed the hype that Obama sold them. Combine that with him being president gaslight and he deserves all the derision he gets and more. He failed to live up to this high-flying rhetoric. "This was the moment" lmao + Show Spoiler + https://youtu.be/cNc5Yel8Oi0 This is such a crock of shit. They had bad plans and were being scammed Anyone who lost their plan had a shit plan to begin with. ACA implemented minimum standards, thats why they lost their plan. | ||
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Dan HH
Romania9137 Posts
On April 25 2022 04:31 Simberto wrote: I think we need to stop conflating two issues here: "Do they get stuff done" and "Do I like the stuff they get done" I think it is very obvious that the republicans are good at getting stuff done. The stuff they get done is usually shitty and evil, but they do get it done. And there is often quite a lot of overlap between what they do and what they promised. (With the addition of lots of money for the rich, which they do but do not promise). They fight against abortion, against gay rights, for more racism and so forth. And they fight hard and dirty for these goals. Meanwhile, the democrats seem to have a much harder time getting stuff done. Half the time, stuff that they try to do doesn't seem to manifest at all due to some Manchin or something like that. And the stuff they do get done is usually some lukewarm middle ground. Much better than the evil shit of the republicans, but far from really amazing. Instead of public healthcare, you get ACA. Things like that. Sure, ACA is okay, and better than not having it. But compared to what you could have, it is not that amazing. The results are not the same, but I don't really feel that enthusiastic about democrats. They feel like a party of shitty status quo minimal action. Which is better than what the republicans want. But it would be nice if americans actually had a party that would move them towards good goals. This isn't happenstance, it's the logical outcome in the current set up. Their population distribution makes it so the median person is somewhat to the left of the median state, but each state having equal representation in the senate makes it so only the latter matters in practice. The red line for how left wing the legislation they can pass is is how left wing the 25th-26th most left wing states are. It makes little difference what party their senators are even in, the only way for democrats to have say 60 senators is by having 10 senators that are even further right than Manchin or Sinema. The seats themselves are not very meaningful, this is a cultural issue, not an electoral one. I don't recall seeing even the most radical lefties suggest limiting/abolishing the upper house, so their only option is slowly culturally moving those median states to the left. On the social plane that does seem to be happening, but on the economic plane I'm not really seeing it, so I'm expecting to the same ol' misdirected frustration for the foreseeable future.. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
The Democrats' ability to get stuff done is far less than the desire of some to create excuses for their lack of progress. The Senate being systematically anti-Democrat certainly ain't the explanation for their lack of results. | ||
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Dan HH
Romania9137 Posts
On April 25 2022 08:09 LegalLord wrote: It's interesting to see how often people aggressively blame the Senate for Republicans' dominance when, if you look at recent history it's the House if anything that the Republicans tend to be dominant in. The biggest majorities in the past, say, 30 years in either the House or Senate were held by Democrats, and the Democrats even squeezed out 60 briefly in 2009. But the one or two Senate majorities and House minorities that the Republicans had during Trump's presidency seem to have made people forget that. The Democrats' ability to get stuff done is far less than the desire of some to create excuses for their lack of progress. The Senate being systematically anti-Democrat certainly ain't the explanation for their lack of results. They could have 100/100 and it wouldn't change how left wing the legislation they can pass is since they're not party appointed. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
On April 25 2022 04:36 Introvert wrote: This is one of my favorite genres of internet lefty post, that Republicans are always so united. It's like people forget they had bigger majorities in 2017-18 then dems do now and only got a tax bill passed That’s not a lack of unity, that’s a lack of interest in legislating. R’s in Congress wanted tax cuts for the rich, judges, and zero social progress, and they got tax cuts for the rich, judges, and zero social progress. | ||
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Introvert
United States4862 Posts
On April 25 2022 06:07 Mohdoo wrote: I think part of why what I’m saying sounds outrageous is where you draw the line of what is sufficiently conservative. Taking a few steps back and ignoring that nuance, would you at least agree republicans get more stuff done than democrats? Using your example of tea party crazies, the bill ends up passing. Republican BBB would have passed. I don't agree. Look at their attempt to kinda sorta repeal Obamacare. That failed too. The tax plan barely got everyone on board. If the "Republican BBB" would have passed, they would have done it. Or how about immigration. They didn't do anything about that either. So no, I don't agree. On April 25 2022 07:15 Sadist wrote: This is such a crock of shit. They had bad plans and were being scammed Anyone who lost their plan had a shit plan to begin with. ACA implemented minimum standards, thats why they lost their plan. I know this is how they've tried to spin it... "if you lost your plan it was because it was garbage." But of course even if this were true (it's not) it doesn't matter. Obama said over and over again that "if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor." People noticed that was false, there was no gaslighting that away. Similar to Biden's problem now, where they refused to acknowledge inflation was going to last and be a problem and then tried to blame Putin after the fact. People notice when things cost more or they lose what they have. Can't BS your way out of that, even if you can try to lie about why something is happening. | ||
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