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People always have said that politicians are liers but now the gop doesn't pretend even to tell the truth. Its this bizarre case of being open about you lying about everything somehow makes you more credible.
Mtg commits constant perjury and just smirks about saying she doesn't remember anything at all like it's a cheat code Republicans found that if they don't participate in the court system it's now illegitimate.
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I mean, I dont think theres a ton of innate trust in Republicans looking out for their total well being, the Republicans are just less outwardly hostile as a political group to low income people without degrees. Its probably easier to just side with the side who doesn't generally mock you than accept that noone in your system gives two shits about you.
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On April 23 2022 23:05 Zambrah wrote:
I mean, I dont think theres a ton of innate trust in Republicans looking out for their total well being, the Republicans are just less outwardly hostile as a political group to low income people without degrees. Its probably easier to just side with the side who doesn't generally mock you than accept that noone in your system gives two shits about you. Oo Republicans want to cut welfare, that hits low income people.
Republicans want to cut access to affordable healthcare, that hits low income people.
How are Democrats outwardly hostile to low income people?
Because they want to close stuff like coal mines? The coal mine companies don't even want coal mines anymore.
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Because they say things like "basket of deplorables," noone who pays attention to non Republican media thinks Republicans are good for anyone but themselves and their shitty rich friends, but Democrats have hardly been good for the working class either and their base is often pretty insulting to the working class.
Democrats dont get wins on the policy front and they dont get wins on the pandering front, Republicans are worse on the policy front but at least they pretend to care and pander.
Im not talking strictly the people within the party either, I mean Democrat voters and the general people who are more closely aligned with Democrats. At this point both halves of the political spectrum hate each other with some exception along certain axis (axises?) I mean, plenty of people here go hard on insulting the average citizenry that votes for Republicans/doesnt vote for Democrats as hopeless idiots, thats not a unique mindset.
Republican base views Democrats are wealthy elites who have stripped the life that was promised to them away (owning homes, good paying manufacturing jobs that let you support a family on a single income, etc.) and Democrat base views Republicans as hillbilly fuckwits who are fundamentally bad people.
Its hardly surprising people will align with the side that isnt so openly hostile to them, especially with the environment social media has created, echo chambers, sharing around the vilest of opinions and such.
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On April 23 2022 23:33 Zambrah wrote:
Because they say things like "basket of deplorables," noone who pays attention to non Republican media thinks Republicans are good for anyone but themselves and their shitty rich friends, but Democrats have hardly been good for the working class either and their base is often pretty insulting to the working class.
Democrats dont get wins on the policy front and they dont get wins on the pandering front, Republicans are worse on the policy front but at least they pretend to care and pander.
Im not talking strictly the people within the party either, I mean Democrat voters and the general people who are more closely aligned with Democrats. At this point both halves of the political spectrum hate each other with some exception along certain axis (axises?) I mean, plenty of people here go hard on insulting the average citizenry that votes for Republicans/doesnt vote for Democrats as hopeless idiots, thats not a unique mindset.
Republican base views Democrats are wealthy elites who have stripped the life that was promised to them away (owning homes, good paying manufacturing jobs that let you support a family on a single income, etc.) and Democrat base views Republicans as hillbilly fuckwits who are fundamentally bad people.
Its hardly surprising people will align with the side that isnt so openly hostile to them, especially with the environment social media has created, echo chambers, sharing around the vilest of opinions and such.
Yeah that basket of deplorables speech where Clinton said there are tons of Republicans who are not in fact deplorable and feel frustrated and overlooked by the system sure doesn't say anything about the Dem establishment messaging that there are Republicans who feel frustrated and overlooked by the system (almost to a fault, depending on who you ask).
It's strange that the very next sentence of that speech vanished into the aether the second it was uttered.
That speech is actually almost a perfect microcosm of how all media has made it their business to carefully titrate the messaging parties provide to maximize outrage and engagement, not understanding, whether they're on the left or the right.
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On April 23 2022 23:57 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2022 23:33 Zambrah wrote:
Because they say things like "basket of deplorables," noone who pays attention to non Republican media thinks Republicans are good for anyone but themselves and their shitty rich friends, but Democrats have hardly been good for the working class either and their base is often pretty insulting to the working class.
Democrats dont get wins on the policy front and they dont get wins on the pandering front, Republicans are worse on the policy front but at least they pretend to care and pander.
Im not talking strictly the people within the party either, I mean Democrat voters and the general people who are more closely aligned with Democrats. At this point both halves of the political spectrum hate each other with some exception along certain axis (axises?) I mean, plenty of people here go hard on insulting the average citizenry that votes for Republicans/doesnt vote for Democrats as hopeless idiots, thats not a unique mindset.
Republican base views Democrats are wealthy elites who have stripped the life that was promised to them away (owning homes, good paying manufacturing jobs that let you support a family on a single income, etc.) and Democrat base views Republicans as hillbilly fuckwits who are fundamentally bad people.
Its hardly surprising people will align with the side that isnt so openly hostile to them, especially with the environment social media has created, echo chambers, sharing around the vilest of opinions and such. Yeah that basket of deplorables speech where Clinton said there are tons of Republicans who are not in fact deplorable and feel frustrated and overlooked by the system sure doesn't say anything about the Dem establishment messaging that there are Republicans who feel frustrated and overlooked by the system (almost to a fault, depending on who you ask). It's strange that the very next sentence of that speech vanished into the aether the second it was uttered. That speech is actually almost a perfect microcosm of how all media has made it their business to carefully titrate the messaging parties provide to maximize outrage and engagement, not understanding.
It'd have been smarter to just not insult any facet of the opposing party's voter base though, especially when your party has a general reputation for having a disdain for the working classes and general blue collar world.
The working class is a powerful electoral force, why antagonize them in any way? Democrats used to have the working class as a key voting base but they've been totally alienated, its such a shame.
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On April 24 2022 00:09 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2022 23:57 TheTenthDoc wrote:On April 23 2022 23:33 Zambrah wrote:
Because they say things like "basket of deplorables," noone who pays attention to non Republican media thinks Republicans are good for anyone but themselves and their shitty rich friends, but Democrats have hardly been good for the working class either and their base is often pretty insulting to the working class.
Democrats dont get wins on the policy front and they dont get wins on the pandering front, Republicans are worse on the policy front but at least they pretend to care and pander.
Im not talking strictly the people within the party either, I mean Democrat voters and the general people who are more closely aligned with Democrats. At this point both halves of the political spectrum hate each other with some exception along certain axis (axises?) I mean, plenty of people here go hard on insulting the average citizenry that votes for Republicans/doesnt vote for Democrats as hopeless idiots, thats not a unique mindset.
Republican base views Democrats are wealthy elites who have stripped the life that was promised to them away (owning homes, good paying manufacturing jobs that let you support a family on a single income, etc.) and Democrat base views Republicans as hillbilly fuckwits who are fundamentally bad people.
Its hardly surprising people will align with the side that isnt so openly hostile to them, especially with the environment social media has created, echo chambers, sharing around the vilest of opinions and such. Yeah that basket of deplorables speech where Clinton said there are tons of Republicans who are not in fact deplorable and feel frustrated and overlooked by the system sure doesn't say anything about the Dem establishment messaging that there are Republicans who feel frustrated and overlooked by the system (almost to a fault, depending on who you ask). It's strange that the very next sentence of that speech vanished into the aether the second it was uttered. That speech is actually almost a perfect microcosm of how all media has made it their business to carefully titrate the messaging parties provide to maximize outrage and engagement, not understanding. It'd have been smarter to just not insult any facet of the opposing party's voter base though, especially when your party has a general reputation for having a disdain for the working classes and general blue collar world. The working class is a powerful electoral force, why antagonize them in any way? Democrats used to have the working class as a key voting base but they've been totally alienated, its such a shame.
I mean, have you heard the relevant section of the speech? Here it is:
You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right? The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic — you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people — now how 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks — they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America. But the other basket — and I know this because I see friends from all over America here — I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas — as well as, you know, New York and California — but that other basket of people are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they’re just desperate for change. It doesn’t really even matter where it comes from. They don’t buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won’t wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroine, feel like they’re in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well.
Are you arguing the Democratic party should stop antagonizing racists, sexists, homophobes, xenophobes, and Islamophobes? Is the logic the Democrats should stop antagonizing any Republicans, or groups that lean Republican? I mean, depending on who you ask they already have!
The start is a hell of a bad sound bite-she shouldn't have said "half"-and Hillary had consistently terrible messaging on a lot of things but touting the speech as an example of the Dem establishment hating on the working class just baffles me. Guns and religion was probably worse in that respect.
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On April 24 2022 00:14 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2022 00:09 Zambrah wrote:On April 23 2022 23:57 TheTenthDoc wrote:On April 23 2022 23:33 Zambrah wrote:
Because they say things like "basket of deplorables," noone who pays attention to non Republican media thinks Republicans are good for anyone but themselves and their shitty rich friends, but Democrats have hardly been good for the working class either and their base is often pretty insulting to the working class.
Democrats dont get wins on the policy front and they dont get wins on the pandering front, Republicans are worse on the policy front but at least they pretend to care and pander.
Im not talking strictly the people within the party either, I mean Democrat voters and the general people who are more closely aligned with Democrats. At this point both halves of the political spectrum hate each other with some exception along certain axis (axises?) I mean, plenty of people here go hard on insulting the average citizenry that votes for Republicans/doesnt vote for Democrats as hopeless idiots, thats not a unique mindset.
Republican base views Democrats are wealthy elites who have stripped the life that was promised to them away (owning homes, good paying manufacturing jobs that let you support a family on a single income, etc.) and Democrat base views Republicans as hillbilly fuckwits who are fundamentally bad people.
Its hardly surprising people will align with the side that isnt so openly hostile to them, especially with the environment social media has created, echo chambers, sharing around the vilest of opinions and such. Yeah that basket of deplorables speech where Clinton said there are tons of Republicans who are not in fact deplorable and feel frustrated and overlooked by the system sure doesn't say anything about the Dem establishment messaging that there are Republicans who feel frustrated and overlooked by the system (almost to a fault, depending on who you ask). It's strange that the very next sentence of that speech vanished into the aether the second it was uttered. That speech is actually almost a perfect microcosm of how all media has made it their business to carefully titrate the messaging parties provide to maximize outrage and engagement, not understanding. It'd have been smarter to just not insult any facet of the opposing party's voter base though, especially when your party has a general reputation for having a disdain for the working classes and general blue collar world. The working class is a powerful electoral force, why antagonize them in any way? Democrats used to have the working class as a key voting base but they've been totally alienated, its such a shame. I mean, have you heard the relevant section of the speech? Here it is: Show nested quote +You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right? The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic — you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people — now how 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks — they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America. But the other basket — and I know this because I see friends from all over America here — I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas — as well as, you know, New York and California — but that other basket of people are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they’re just desperate for change. It doesn’t really even matter where it comes from. They don’t buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won’t wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroine, feel like they’re in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well. Are you arguing the Democratic party should stop antagonizing racists, sexists, homophobes, xenophobes, and Islamophobes? Is the logic the Democrats should stop antagonizing any Republicans, or groups that lean Republican? I mean, depending on who you ask they already have! The start is a hell of a bad sound bite-she shouldn't have said "half"-and Hillary had consistently terrible messaging on a lot of things but touting the speech as an example of the Dem establishment hating on the working class just baffles me. Guns and religion was probably worse in that respect.
She could have cut out "Trump Supporters," who by bringing up she is proceeding to call deplorable racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic islamophobes? Shes very clearly insulting Trump supporters as racists, sexists, etc. which sure, a fair few are, but plenty (though they are in many ways) don't view themselves as racists or sexists, and the "oh, but not you I meant everyone else, you know the ones" argument isnt very persuasive in these situations.
Antagonize racists and sexists, etc. but maybe dont call a large portion of the electorate racists and sexists so directly.
Democrats might be able to get away with these sorts of things if the working class wasnt so fucked over and Democrats didnt operate at the behest of the people doing the fucking, but we dont live in that world so Democrats shouldn't overextend where they lack the good will to support them.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
The "basket of deplorables" speech played well with the core Democrat party bloc, just like Mitt Romney's "47 percent" played well with the wealthy folks he was actually talking to. I remember how many people around here were squealing with joy that Hillary decided to "say it how it is" by outright saying that people who vote for Trump are scumbags. Unfortunately these loyal Democrat party-liners didn't read the room and failed to realize that you don't win with blanket insults on huge portions of the electorate. And if I were to say "half of people who vote for the Democrats are literally the spawn of Satan, but I'm sure the other half are just confused and desperate" - no I wouldn't expect the people I just insulted to assume that they're in the half that I'm not calling devil spawn.
Would've been a big decisive win rather than just squeaking past the electoral goalpost if not for the fact that Trump was a highly questionable candidate in his own right. At least the party loyalists got the catharsis of insulting Republican voters, I guess.
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On April 24 2022 00:14 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2022 00:09 Zambrah wrote:On April 23 2022 23:57 TheTenthDoc wrote:On April 23 2022 23:33 Zambrah wrote:
Because they say things like "basket of deplorables," noone who pays attention to non Republican media thinks Republicans are good for anyone but themselves and their shitty rich friends, but Democrats have hardly been good for the working class either and their base is often pretty insulting to the working class.
Democrats dont get wins on the policy front and they dont get wins on the pandering front, Republicans are worse on the policy front but at least they pretend to care and pander.
Im not talking strictly the people within the party either, I mean Democrat voters and the general people who are more closely aligned with Democrats. At this point both halves of the political spectrum hate each other with some exception along certain axis (axises?) I mean, plenty of people here go hard on insulting the average citizenry that votes for Republicans/doesnt vote for Democrats as hopeless idiots, thats not a unique mindset.
Republican base views Democrats are wealthy elites who have stripped the life that was promised to them away (owning homes, good paying manufacturing jobs that let you support a family on a single income, etc.) and Democrat base views Republicans as hillbilly fuckwits who are fundamentally bad people.
Its hardly surprising people will align with the side that isnt so openly hostile to them, especially with the environment social media has created, echo chambers, sharing around the vilest of opinions and such. Yeah that basket of deplorables speech where Clinton said there are tons of Republicans who are not in fact deplorable and feel frustrated and overlooked by the system sure doesn't say anything about the Dem establishment messaging that there are Republicans who feel frustrated and overlooked by the system (almost to a fault, depending on who you ask). It's strange that the very next sentence of that speech vanished into the aether the second it was uttered. That speech is actually almost a perfect microcosm of how all media has made it their business to carefully titrate the messaging parties provide to maximize outrage and engagement, not understanding. It'd have been smarter to just not insult any facet of the opposing party's voter base though, especially when your party has a general reputation for having a disdain for the working classes and general blue collar world. The working class is a powerful electoral force, why antagonize them in any way? Democrats used to have the working class as a key voting base but they've been totally alienated, its such a shame. I mean, have you heard the relevant section of the speech? Here it is: Show nested quote +You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right? The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic — you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people — now how 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks — they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America. But the other basket — and I know this because I see friends from all over America here — I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas — as well as, you know, New York and California — but that other basket of people are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they’re just desperate for change. It doesn’t really even matter where it comes from. They don’t buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won’t wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroine, feel like they’re in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well. Are you arguing the Democratic party should stop antagonizing racists, sexists, homophobes, xenophobes, and Islamophobes? Is the logic the Democrats should stop antagonizing any Republicans, or groups that lean Republican? I mean, depending on who you ask they already have! The start is a hell of a bad sound bite-she shouldn't have said "half"-and Hillary had consistently terrible messaging on a lot of things but touting the speech as an example of the Dem establishment hating on the working class just baffles me. Guns and religion was probably worse in that respect.
Democrat's culture war attempts are not effective. Whether they are on the right side of history or not, it is totally meaningless if they are just giving control to people who will make things worse. The problem is that the current democrat identity is a bunch of identity politics that a bunch of people don't actually like. It feels like Twitter tricked democrats essentially from all the reeeee commies. My favorite example is Latinx. They were so sure it was this wonderful idea.
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I think its a more complex situation than that, most people rely on imagined archetypes of professions and their compensation/lifestyle. Farmers and plumbers are people who work with their hands, their work is viewed sort of like manual labor, and we've spent how much time denigrating professions that involve manual labor/working with your hands as basically the worst case career scenario? Certainly there is some "college educated professionals are The Elite because college educated professionals are moneyed, after all the cultural narrative is college education = $$$! (ignoring that this is obviously bullshit, but its been the narrative for a long time.)" mindset, though.
Basically boils down to general American ignorance. Though yes, being talked down to does make an impact, people don't like to be talked down to.
I think its probably too late for Democrats to recapture the working class voting base though, they aren't willing or able to do anything materially to earn it back and they've earned so much ill will from that portion of society that words probably aren't going to cut it.
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On April 24 2022 00:28 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2022 00:14 TheTenthDoc wrote:On April 24 2022 00:09 Zambrah wrote:On April 23 2022 23:57 TheTenthDoc wrote:On April 23 2022 23:33 Zambrah wrote:
Because they say things like "basket of deplorables," noone who pays attention to non Republican media thinks Republicans are good for anyone but themselves and their shitty rich friends, but Democrats have hardly been good for the working class either and their base is often pretty insulting to the working class.
Democrats dont get wins on the policy front and they dont get wins on the pandering front, Republicans are worse on the policy front but at least they pretend to care and pander.
Im not talking strictly the people within the party either, I mean Democrat voters and the general people who are more closely aligned with Democrats. At this point both halves of the political spectrum hate each other with some exception along certain axis (axises?) I mean, plenty of people here go hard on insulting the average citizenry that votes for Republicans/doesnt vote for Democrats as hopeless idiots, thats not a unique mindset.
Republican base views Democrats are wealthy elites who have stripped the life that was promised to them away (owning homes, good paying manufacturing jobs that let you support a family on a single income, etc.) and Democrat base views Republicans as hillbilly fuckwits who are fundamentally bad people.
Its hardly surprising people will align with the side that isnt so openly hostile to them, especially with the environment social media has created, echo chambers, sharing around the vilest of opinions and such. Yeah that basket of deplorables speech where Clinton said there are tons of Republicans who are not in fact deplorable and feel frustrated and overlooked by the system sure doesn't say anything about the Dem establishment messaging that there are Republicans who feel frustrated and overlooked by the system (almost to a fault, depending on who you ask). It's strange that the very next sentence of that speech vanished into the aether the second it was uttered. That speech is actually almost a perfect microcosm of how all media has made it their business to carefully titrate the messaging parties provide to maximize outrage and engagement, not understanding. It'd have been smarter to just not insult any facet of the opposing party's voter base though, especially when your party has a general reputation for having a disdain for the working classes and general blue collar world. The working class is a powerful electoral force, why antagonize them in any way? Democrats used to have the working class as a key voting base but they've been totally alienated, its such a shame. I mean, have you heard the relevant section of the speech? Here it is: You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right? The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic — you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people — now how 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks — they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America. But the other basket — and I know this because I see friends from all over America here — I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas — as well as, you know, New York and California — but that other basket of people are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they’re just desperate for change. It doesn’t really even matter where it comes from. They don’t buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won’t wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroine, feel like they’re in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well. Are you arguing the Democratic party should stop antagonizing racists, sexists, homophobes, xenophobes, and Islamophobes? Is the logic the Democrats should stop antagonizing any Republicans, or groups that lean Republican? I mean, depending on who you ask they already have! The start is a hell of a bad sound bite-she shouldn't have said "half"-and Hillary had consistently terrible messaging on a lot of things but touting the speech as an example of the Dem establishment hating on the working class just baffles me. Guns and religion was probably worse in that respect. She could have cut out "Trump Supporters," who by bringing up she is proceeding to call deplorable racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic islamophobes? Shes very clearly insulting Trump supporters as racists, sexists, etc. which sure, a fair few are, but plenty (though they are in many ways) don't view themselves as racists or sexists, and the "oh, but not you I meant everyone else, you know the ones" argument isnt very persuasive in these situations. Antagonize racists and sexists, etc. but maybe dont call a large portion of the electorate racists and sexists so directly. Democrats might be able to get away with these sorts of things if the working class wasnt so fucked over and Democrats didnt operate at the behest of the people doing the fucking, but we dont live in that world so Democrats shouldn't overextend where they lack the good will to support them. Half of Trump supporters. (that half bit is kind of important)
The fact people assume she was talking about them rather then the guy with a confederate flag or tiki torch standing next to them probably says something about themselves.
Plus its basically a factual statement. A significant part of the Republican base are deplorable racists, sexists, homophobes and xenophobes and it makes no sense whatsoever for Democrats to try to appeal to them.
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On April 24 2022 02:51 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2022 00:28 Zambrah wrote:On April 24 2022 00:14 TheTenthDoc wrote:On April 24 2022 00:09 Zambrah wrote:On April 23 2022 23:57 TheTenthDoc wrote:On April 23 2022 23:33 Zambrah wrote:
Because they say things like "basket of deplorables," noone who pays attention to non Republican media thinks Republicans are good for anyone but themselves and their shitty rich friends, but Democrats have hardly been good for the working class either and their base is often pretty insulting to the working class.
Democrats dont get wins on the policy front and they dont get wins on the pandering front, Republicans are worse on the policy front but at least they pretend to care and pander.
Im not talking strictly the people within the party either, I mean Democrat voters and the general people who are more closely aligned with Democrats. At this point both halves of the political spectrum hate each other with some exception along certain axis (axises?) I mean, plenty of people here go hard on insulting the average citizenry that votes for Republicans/doesnt vote for Democrats as hopeless idiots, thats not a unique mindset.
Republican base views Democrats are wealthy elites who have stripped the life that was promised to them away (owning homes, good paying manufacturing jobs that let you support a family on a single income, etc.) and Democrat base views Republicans as hillbilly fuckwits who are fundamentally bad people.
Its hardly surprising people will align with the side that isnt so openly hostile to them, especially with the environment social media has created, echo chambers, sharing around the vilest of opinions and such. Yeah that basket of deplorables speech where Clinton said there are tons of Republicans who are not in fact deplorable and feel frustrated and overlooked by the system sure doesn't say anything about the Dem establishment messaging that there are Republicans who feel frustrated and overlooked by the system (almost to a fault, depending on who you ask). It's strange that the very next sentence of that speech vanished into the aether the second it was uttered. That speech is actually almost a perfect microcosm of how all media has made it their business to carefully titrate the messaging parties provide to maximize outrage and engagement, not understanding. It'd have been smarter to just not insult any facet of the opposing party's voter base though, especially when your party has a general reputation for having a disdain for the working classes and general blue collar world. The working class is a powerful electoral force, why antagonize them in any way? Democrats used to have the working class as a key voting base but they've been totally alienated, its such a shame. I mean, have you heard the relevant section of the speech? Here it is: You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right? The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic — you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people — now how 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks — they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America. But the other basket — and I know this because I see friends from all over America here — I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas — as well as, you know, New York and California — but that other basket of people are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they’re just desperate for change. It doesn’t really even matter where it comes from. They don’t buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won’t wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroine, feel like they’re in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well. Are you arguing the Democratic party should stop antagonizing racists, sexists, homophobes, xenophobes, and Islamophobes? Is the logic the Democrats should stop antagonizing any Republicans, or groups that lean Republican? I mean, depending on who you ask they already have! The start is a hell of a bad sound bite-she shouldn't have said "half"-and Hillary had consistently terrible messaging on a lot of things but touting the speech as an example of the Dem establishment hating on the working class just baffles me. Guns and religion was probably worse in that respect. She could have cut out "Trump Supporters," who by bringing up she is proceeding to call deplorable racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic islamophobes? Shes very clearly insulting Trump supporters as racists, sexists, etc. which sure, a fair few are, but plenty (though they are in many ways) don't view themselves as racists or sexists, and the "oh, but not you I meant everyone else, you know the ones" argument isnt very persuasive in these situations. Antagonize racists and sexists, etc. but maybe dont call a large portion of the electorate racists and sexists so directly. Democrats might be able to get away with these sorts of things if the working class wasnt so fucked over and Democrats didnt operate at the behest of the people doing the fucking, but we dont live in that world so Democrats shouldn't overextend where they lack the good will to support them. Half of Trump supporters. (that half bit is kind of important) The fact people assume she was talking about them rather then the guy with a confederate flag or tiki torch standing next to them probably says something about themselves. Plus its basically a factual statement. A significant part of the Republican base are deplorable racists, sexists, homophobes and xenophobes and it makes no sense whatsoever for Democrats to try to appeal to them.
You don’t see how saying half of a colossal group of people are vile is going to feel insulting to the group at large?…
This mentality here is a losers mentality, because people are hopeless, they incapable of learning or improving themselves or doing better right?
Maybe instead of scorning so many people as irreparable monsters we focused on dealing with some of the root causes why they may have developed those beliefs we might actually accomplish something but wait no I’m so sure your strategy of do nothing and pray Republicans just stay out of power and democracy holds up to future assault until maybe Democrats win by demographics and also hope Republicans change nothing and don’t find a way to appeal to other demographics and fuck over that whole plan.
I bet average Trump brand Republicans wouldn’t be so susceptible to snake oil salesmen if they didn’t have to live in dried out husks of communities and suffer through poverty, but those are hard problems to solve and boy is it easier to write the whole group off. Plus then Democrats don’t have to deliver or mess with their donor interests! I see why it’s such an appealing prospect to politicians who aren’t interested in meaningful change for the better.
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On April 24 2022 03:00 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2022 02:51 Gorsameth wrote:On April 24 2022 00:28 Zambrah wrote:On April 24 2022 00:14 TheTenthDoc wrote:On April 24 2022 00:09 Zambrah wrote:On April 23 2022 23:57 TheTenthDoc wrote:On April 23 2022 23:33 Zambrah wrote:
Because they say things like "basket of deplorables," noone who pays attention to non Republican media thinks Republicans are good for anyone but themselves and their shitty rich friends, but Democrats have hardly been good for the working class either and their base is often pretty insulting to the working class.
Democrats dont get wins on the policy front and they dont get wins on the pandering front, Republicans are worse on the policy front but at least they pretend to care and pander.
Im not talking strictly the people within the party either, I mean Democrat voters and the general people who are more closely aligned with Democrats. At this point both halves of the political spectrum hate each other with some exception along certain axis (axises?) I mean, plenty of people here go hard on insulting the average citizenry that votes for Republicans/doesnt vote for Democrats as hopeless idiots, thats not a unique mindset.
Republican base views Democrats are wealthy elites who have stripped the life that was promised to them away (owning homes, good paying manufacturing jobs that let you support a family on a single income, etc.) and Democrat base views Republicans as hillbilly fuckwits who are fundamentally bad people.
Its hardly surprising people will align with the side that isnt so openly hostile to them, especially with the environment social media has created, echo chambers, sharing around the vilest of opinions and such. Yeah that basket of deplorables speech where Clinton said there are tons of Republicans who are not in fact deplorable and feel frustrated and overlooked by the system sure doesn't say anything about the Dem establishment messaging that there are Republicans who feel frustrated and overlooked by the system (almost to a fault, depending on who you ask). It's strange that the very next sentence of that speech vanished into the aether the second it was uttered. That speech is actually almost a perfect microcosm of how all media has made it their business to carefully titrate the messaging parties provide to maximize outrage and engagement, not understanding. It'd have been smarter to just not insult any facet of the opposing party's voter base though, especially when your party has a general reputation for having a disdain for the working classes and general blue collar world. The working class is a powerful electoral force, why antagonize them in any way? Democrats used to have the working class as a key voting base but they've been totally alienated, its such a shame. I mean, have you heard the relevant section of the speech? Here it is: You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right? The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic — you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people — now how 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks — they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America. But the other basket — and I know this because I see friends from all over America here — I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas — as well as, you know, New York and California — but that other basket of people are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they’re just desperate for change. It doesn’t really even matter where it comes from. They don’t buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won’t wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroine, feel like they’re in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well. Are you arguing the Democratic party should stop antagonizing racists, sexists, homophobes, xenophobes, and Islamophobes? Is the logic the Democrats should stop antagonizing any Republicans, or groups that lean Republican? I mean, depending on who you ask they already have! The start is a hell of a bad sound bite-she shouldn't have said "half"-and Hillary had consistently terrible messaging on a lot of things but touting the speech as an example of the Dem establishment hating on the working class just baffles me. Guns and religion was probably worse in that respect. She could have cut out "Trump Supporters," who by bringing up she is proceeding to call deplorable racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic islamophobes? Shes very clearly insulting Trump supporters as racists, sexists, etc. which sure, a fair few are, but plenty (though they are in many ways) don't view themselves as racists or sexists, and the "oh, but not you I meant everyone else, you know the ones" argument isnt very persuasive in these situations. Antagonize racists and sexists, etc. but maybe dont call a large portion of the electorate racists and sexists so directly. Democrats might be able to get away with these sorts of things if the working class wasnt so fucked over and Democrats didnt operate at the behest of the people doing the fucking, but we dont live in that world so Democrats shouldn't overextend where they lack the good will to support them. Half of Trump supporters. (that half bit is kind of important) The fact people assume she was talking about them rather then the guy with a confederate flag or tiki torch standing next to them probably says something about themselves. Plus its basically a factual statement. A significant part of the Republican base are deplorable racists, sexists, homophobes and xenophobes and it makes no sense whatsoever for Democrats to try to appeal to them. You don’t see how saying half of a colossal group of people are vile is going to feel insulting to the group at large?… This mentality here is a losers mentality, because people are hopeless, they incapable of learning or improving themselves or doing better right? Maybe instead of scorning so many people as irreparable monsters we focused on dealing with some of the root causes why they may have developed those beliefs we might actually accomplish something but wait no I’m so sure your strategy of do nothing and pray Republicans just stay out of power and democracy holds up to future assault until maybe Democrats win by demographics and also hope Republicans change nothing and don’t find a way to appeal to other demographics and fuck over that whole plan. I bet average Trump brand Republicans wouldn’t be so susceptible to snake oil salesmen if they didn’t have to live in dried out husks of communities and suffer through poverty, but those are hard problems to solve and boy is it easier to write the whole group off. Plus then Democrats don’t have to deliver or mess with their donor interests! I see why it’s such an appealing prospect to politicians who aren’t interested in meaningful change for the better.
So well said.
It's sorta like telling a boiler technician that your coal power plant is going to close, but don't worry we're building wind farms and we will generate this amount of jobs, and that's the entirety of your plan.
You're telling this man that he's going to lose his well-paying blue collar job, and he still has a mortgage and two kids. And his options are either work at the local Walmart or become an apprentice again, taking a pay cut of 50% or more in the process.
Is it a surprise that if that's the best you can offer, they go vote for Trump?
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United States42884 Posts
Coal employs a negligible amount of people in the US and the externalities of the coal are more expensive than the energy in the coal is worth. It’s not been profitable in years without subsidies such as government paying for black lung care.
Pay the guy the same wage to stay home and do nothing imo. Coal is basically taxpayer funded vandalism. If we’re happy to pay people to make the world worse we should be content to pay them to do nothing at all.
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On April 24 2022 15:32 KwarK wrote:
Coal employs a negligible amount of people in the US and the externalities of the coal are more expensive than the energy in the coal is worth. It’s not been profitable in years without subsidies such as government paying for black lung care.
Pay the guy the same wage to stay home and do nothing imo. Coal is basically taxpayer funded vandalism. If we’re happy to pay people to make the world worse we should be content to pay them to do nothing at all.
At least then that would be a solution. It's the lack of solutions that have driven them towards Trump.
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EPT
