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On April 24 2022 15:06 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2022 03:00 Zambrah wrote:On April 24 2022 02:51 Gorsameth wrote:On April 24 2022 00:28 Zambrah wrote:On April 24 2022 00:14 TheTenthDoc wrote:On April 24 2022 00:09 Zambrah wrote:On April 23 2022 23:57 TheTenthDoc wrote:On April 23 2022 23:33 Zambrah wrote:
Because they say things like "basket of deplorables," noone who pays attention to non Republican media thinks Republicans are good for anyone but themselves and their shitty rich friends, but Democrats have hardly been good for the working class either and their base is often pretty insulting to the working class.
Democrats dont get wins on the policy front and they dont get wins on the pandering front, Republicans are worse on the policy front but at least they pretend to care and pander.
Im not talking strictly the people within the party either, I mean Democrat voters and the general people who are more closely aligned with Democrats. At this point both halves of the political spectrum hate each other with some exception along certain axis (axises?) I mean, plenty of people here go hard on insulting the average citizenry that votes for Republicans/doesnt vote for Democrats as hopeless idiots, thats not a unique mindset.
Republican base views Democrats are wealthy elites who have stripped the life that was promised to them away (owning homes, good paying manufacturing jobs that let you support a family on a single income, etc.) and Democrat base views Republicans as hillbilly fuckwits who are fundamentally bad people.
Its hardly surprising people will align with the side that isnt so openly hostile to them, especially with the environment social media has created, echo chambers, sharing around the vilest of opinions and such. Yeah that basket of deplorables speech where Clinton said there are tons of Republicans who are not in fact deplorable and feel frustrated and overlooked by the system sure doesn't say anything about the Dem establishment messaging that there are Republicans who feel frustrated and overlooked by the system (almost to a fault, depending on who you ask). It's strange that the very next sentence of that speech vanished into the aether the second it was uttered. That speech is actually almost a perfect microcosm of how all media has made it their business to carefully titrate the messaging parties provide to maximize outrage and engagement, not understanding. It'd have been smarter to just not insult any facet of the opposing party's voter base though, especially when your party has a general reputation for having a disdain for the working classes and general blue collar world. The working class is a powerful electoral force, why antagonize them in any way? Democrats used to have the working class as a key voting base but they've been totally alienated, its such a shame. I mean, have you heard the relevant section of the speech? Here it is: You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right? The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic — you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people — now how 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks — they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America. But the other basket — and I know this because I see friends from all over America here — I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas — as well as, you know, New York and California — but that other basket of people are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they’re just desperate for change. It doesn’t really even matter where it comes from. They don’t buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won’t wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroine, feel like they’re in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well. Are you arguing the Democratic party should stop antagonizing racists, sexists, homophobes, xenophobes, and Islamophobes? Is the logic the Democrats should stop antagonizing any Republicans, or groups that lean Republican? I mean, depending on who you ask they already have! The start is a hell of a bad sound bite-she shouldn't have said "half"-and Hillary had consistently terrible messaging on a lot of things but touting the speech as an example of the Dem establishment hating on the working class just baffles me. Guns and religion was probably worse in that respect. She could have cut out "Trump Supporters," who by bringing up she is proceeding to call deplorable racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic islamophobes? Shes very clearly insulting Trump supporters as racists, sexists, etc. which sure, a fair few are, but plenty (though they are in many ways) don't view themselves as racists or sexists, and the "oh, but not you I meant everyone else, you know the ones" argument isnt very persuasive in these situations. Antagonize racists and sexists, etc. but maybe dont call a large portion of the electorate racists and sexists so directly. Democrats might be able to get away with these sorts of things if the working class wasnt so fucked over and Democrats didnt operate at the behest of the people doing the fucking, but we dont live in that world so Democrats shouldn't overextend where they lack the good will to support them. Half of Trump supporters. (that half bit is kind of important) The fact people assume she was talking about them rather then the guy with a confederate flag or tiki torch standing next to them probably says something about themselves. Plus its basically a factual statement. A significant part of the Republican base are deplorable racists, sexists, homophobes and xenophobes and it makes no sense whatsoever for Democrats to try to appeal to them. You don’t see how saying half of a colossal group of people are vile is going to feel insulting to the group at large?… This mentality here is a losers mentality, because people are hopeless, they incapable of learning or improving themselves or doing better right? Maybe instead of scorning so many people as irreparable monsters we focused on dealing with some of the root causes why they may have developed those beliefs we might actually accomplish something but wait no I’m so sure your strategy of do nothing and pray Republicans just stay out of power and democracy holds up to future assault until maybe Democrats win by demographics and also hope Republicans change nothing and don’t find a way to appeal to other demographics and fuck over that whole plan. I bet average Trump brand Republicans wouldn’t be so susceptible to snake oil salesmen if they didn’t have to live in dried out husks of communities and suffer through poverty, but those are hard problems to solve and boy is it easier to write the whole group off. Plus then Democrats don’t have to deliver or mess with their donor interests! I see why it’s such an appealing prospect to politicians who aren’t interested in meaningful change for the better. So well said. It's sorta like telling a boiler technician that your coal power plant is going to close, but don't worry we're building wind farms and we will generate this amount of jobs, and that's the entirety of your plan. You're telling this man that he's going to lose his well-paying blue collar job, and he still has a mortgage and two kids. And his options are either work at the local Walmart or become an apprentice again, taking a pay cut of 50% or more in the process. Is it a surprise that if that's the best you can offer, they go vote for Trump? And did Trump give them a single coal job?
No, because with or without the federal government the world is moving away from coal and those jobs are going to disappear regardless.
One side promises to turn back the inevitable progress of time, the other offers an actual solution to the problem. But its not the perfect solution you want so instead you vote for the snake oil salesmen and get left with nothing.
The real miracle is that this has been happening for decades and somehow these people still haven't figured out that the Republicans are not helping them one bit and that while the Democrats are very far from perfect atleast they try to come up with some sort of solution.
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If Democrats were actually helpful the country wouldn't be slipping into such deep wealth inequality. Republicans are easy to blame but Democrats have been in power plenty and the country is still a shit hole. They were in power with a fucking super majority in Congress and the presidency no less.
Democrats come up with "solutions" and then make them so ineffectual as to basically only serve to give people a taste of something good which just pisses them off.
What an easy win the Child Tax Credit could have been but nooooooo, god, that'd be some piece of genuinely positive change Democrats brought about and we just can't have that. So you get it for one year and then under Democrat control it goes away, pissing off people who relied on it off far more than if they had just never gotten it.
Oh, and lets not forget Joe Manchin's outward hostility towards the poor, he doesnt want the Child Tax Credit because those dumb vile poors cant be trusted with money, they'll just buy drugs! Have to keep them poor and suffering for their own moral benefit, right?
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Yeah, the core problem of the US is that they have a fascist party and a neoliberal party. The US would need a real leftwing party, but that doesn't exist. And so the fascists and the neoliberals play stuff back and forth, only profitting the elite.
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On April 24 2022 17:58 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2022 15:06 gobbledydook wrote:On April 24 2022 03:00 Zambrah wrote:On April 24 2022 02:51 Gorsameth wrote:On April 24 2022 00:28 Zambrah wrote:On April 24 2022 00:14 TheTenthDoc wrote:On April 24 2022 00:09 Zambrah wrote:On April 23 2022 23:57 TheTenthDoc wrote:On April 23 2022 23:33 Zambrah wrote:
Because they say things like "basket of deplorables," noone who pays attention to non Republican media thinks Republicans are good for anyone but themselves and their shitty rich friends, but Democrats have hardly been good for the working class either and their base is often pretty insulting to the working class.
Democrats dont get wins on the policy front and they dont get wins on the pandering front, Republicans are worse on the policy front but at least they pretend to care and pander.
Im not talking strictly the people within the party either, I mean Democrat voters and the general people who are more closely aligned with Democrats. At this point both halves of the political spectrum hate each other with some exception along certain axis (axises?) I mean, plenty of people here go hard on insulting the average citizenry that votes for Republicans/doesnt vote for Democrats as hopeless idiots, thats not a unique mindset.
Republican base views Democrats are wealthy elites who have stripped the life that was promised to them away (owning homes, good paying manufacturing jobs that let you support a family on a single income, etc.) and Democrat base views Republicans as hillbilly fuckwits who are fundamentally bad people.
Its hardly surprising people will align with the side that isnt so openly hostile to them, especially with the environment social media has created, echo chambers, sharing around the vilest of opinions and such. Yeah that basket of deplorables speech where Clinton said there are tons of Republicans who are not in fact deplorable and feel frustrated and overlooked by the system sure doesn't say anything about the Dem establishment messaging that there are Republicans who feel frustrated and overlooked by the system (almost to a fault, depending on who you ask). It's strange that the very next sentence of that speech vanished into the aether the second it was uttered. That speech is actually almost a perfect microcosm of how all media has made it their business to carefully titrate the messaging parties provide to maximize outrage and engagement, not understanding. It'd have been smarter to just not insult any facet of the opposing party's voter base though, especially when your party has a general reputation for having a disdain for the working classes and general blue collar world. The working class is a powerful electoral force, why antagonize them in any way? Democrats used to have the working class as a key voting base but they've been totally alienated, its such a shame. I mean, have you heard the relevant section of the speech? Here it is: You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right? The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic — you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people — now how 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks — they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America. But the other basket — and I know this because I see friends from all over America here — I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas — as well as, you know, New York and California — but that other basket of people are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they’re just desperate for change. It doesn’t really even matter where it comes from. They don’t buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won’t wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroine, feel like they’re in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well. Are you arguing the Democratic party should stop antagonizing racists, sexists, homophobes, xenophobes, and Islamophobes? Is the logic the Democrats should stop antagonizing any Republicans, or groups that lean Republican? I mean, depending on who you ask they already have! The start is a hell of a bad sound bite-she shouldn't have said "half"-and Hillary had consistently terrible messaging on a lot of things but touting the speech as an example of the Dem establishment hating on the working class just baffles me. Guns and religion was probably worse in that respect. She could have cut out "Trump Supporters," who by bringing up she is proceeding to call deplorable racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic islamophobes? Shes very clearly insulting Trump supporters as racists, sexists, etc. which sure, a fair few are, but plenty (though they are in many ways) don't view themselves as racists or sexists, and the "oh, but not you I meant everyone else, you know the ones" argument isnt very persuasive in these situations. Antagonize racists and sexists, etc. but maybe dont call a large portion of the electorate racists and sexists so directly. Democrats might be able to get away with these sorts of things if the working class wasnt so fucked over and Democrats didnt operate at the behest of the people doing the fucking, but we dont live in that world so Democrats shouldn't overextend where they lack the good will to support them. Half of Trump supporters. (that half bit is kind of important) The fact people assume she was talking about them rather then the guy with a confederate flag or tiki torch standing next to them probably says something about themselves. Plus its basically a factual statement. A significant part of the Republican base are deplorable racists, sexists, homophobes and xenophobes and it makes no sense whatsoever for Democrats to try to appeal to them. You don’t see how saying half of a colossal group of people are vile is going to feel insulting to the group at large?… This mentality here is a losers mentality, because people are hopeless, they incapable of learning or improving themselves or doing better right? Maybe instead of scorning so many people as irreparable monsters we focused on dealing with some of the root causes why they may have developed those beliefs we might actually accomplish something but wait no I’m so sure your strategy of do nothing and pray Republicans just stay out of power and democracy holds up to future assault until maybe Democrats win by demographics and also hope Republicans change nothing and don’t find a way to appeal to other demographics and fuck over that whole plan. I bet average Trump brand Republicans wouldn’t be so susceptible to snake oil salesmen if they didn’t have to live in dried out husks of communities and suffer through poverty, but those are hard problems to solve and boy is it easier to write the whole group off. Plus then Democrats don’t have to deliver or mess with their donor interests! I see why it’s such an appealing prospect to politicians who aren’t interested in meaningful change for the better. So well said. It's sorta like telling a boiler technician that your coal power plant is going to close, but don't worry we're building wind farms and we will generate this amount of jobs, and that's the entirety of your plan. You're telling this man that he's going to lose his well-paying blue collar job, and he still has a mortgage and two kids. And his options are either work at the local Walmart or become an apprentice again, taking a pay cut of 50% or more in the process. Is it a surprise that if that's the best you can offer, they go vote for Trump? And did Trump give them a single coal job? No, because with or without the federal government the world is moving away from coal and those jobs are going to disappear regardless. One side promises to turn back the inevitable progress of time, the other offers an actual solution to the problem. But its not the perfect solution you want so instead you vote for the snake oil salesmen and get left with nothing. The real miracle is that this has been happening for decades and somehow these people still haven't figured out that the Republicans are not helping them one bit and that while the Democrats are very far from perfect atleast they try to come up with some sort of solution.
All you said is true from a logical standpoint. Coal is going away whether people like it or not. What is hugely lacking is empathy and support. I remember when Hillary Clinton bragged that she was going to end coal. Good news for the environmentalists in the Democratic party, incredibly tone deaf to the people actually affected. Sadly I don't think the Democratic party has changed since then, and that's sad because the country really needs someone who really cares.
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On April 24 2022 20:10 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2022 17:58 Gorsameth wrote:On April 24 2022 15:06 gobbledydook wrote:On April 24 2022 03:00 Zambrah wrote:On April 24 2022 02:51 Gorsameth wrote:On April 24 2022 00:28 Zambrah wrote:On April 24 2022 00:14 TheTenthDoc wrote:On April 24 2022 00:09 Zambrah wrote:On April 23 2022 23:57 TheTenthDoc wrote:On April 23 2022 23:33 Zambrah wrote:
Because they say things like "basket of deplorables," noone who pays attention to non Republican media thinks Republicans are good for anyone but themselves and their shitty rich friends, but Democrats have hardly been good for the working class either and their base is often pretty insulting to the working class.
Democrats dont get wins on the policy front and they dont get wins on the pandering front, Republicans are worse on the policy front but at least they pretend to care and pander.
Im not talking strictly the people within the party either, I mean Democrat voters and the general people who are more closely aligned with Democrats. At this point both halves of the political spectrum hate each other with some exception along certain axis (axises?) I mean, plenty of people here go hard on insulting the average citizenry that votes for Republicans/doesnt vote for Democrats as hopeless idiots, thats not a unique mindset.
Republican base views Democrats are wealthy elites who have stripped the life that was promised to them away (owning homes, good paying manufacturing jobs that let you support a family on a single income, etc.) and Democrat base views Republicans as hillbilly fuckwits who are fundamentally bad people.
Its hardly surprising people will align with the side that isnt so openly hostile to them, especially with the environment social media has created, echo chambers, sharing around the vilest of opinions and such. Yeah that basket of deplorables speech where Clinton said there are tons of Republicans who are not in fact deplorable and feel frustrated and overlooked by the system sure doesn't say anything about the Dem establishment messaging that there are Republicans who feel frustrated and overlooked by the system (almost to a fault, depending on who you ask). It's strange that the very next sentence of that speech vanished into the aether the second it was uttered. That speech is actually almost a perfect microcosm of how all media has made it their business to carefully titrate the messaging parties provide to maximize outrage and engagement, not understanding. It'd have been smarter to just not insult any facet of the opposing party's voter base though, especially when your party has a general reputation for having a disdain for the working classes and general blue collar world. The working class is a powerful electoral force, why antagonize them in any way? Democrats used to have the working class as a key voting base but they've been totally alienated, its such a shame. I mean, have you heard the relevant section of the speech? Here it is: You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right? The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic — you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people — now how 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks — they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America. But the other basket — and I know this because I see friends from all over America here — I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas — as well as, you know, New York and California — but that other basket of people are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they’re just desperate for change. It doesn’t really even matter where it comes from. They don’t buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won’t wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroine, feel like they’re in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well. Are you arguing the Democratic party should stop antagonizing racists, sexists, homophobes, xenophobes, and Islamophobes? Is the logic the Democrats should stop antagonizing any Republicans, or groups that lean Republican? I mean, depending on who you ask they already have! The start is a hell of a bad sound bite-she shouldn't have said "half"-and Hillary had consistently terrible messaging on a lot of things but touting the speech as an example of the Dem establishment hating on the working class just baffles me. Guns and religion was probably worse in that respect. She could have cut out "Trump Supporters," who by bringing up she is proceeding to call deplorable racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic islamophobes? Shes very clearly insulting Trump supporters as racists, sexists, etc. which sure, a fair few are, but plenty (though they are in many ways) don't view themselves as racists or sexists, and the "oh, but not you I meant everyone else, you know the ones" argument isnt very persuasive in these situations. Antagonize racists and sexists, etc. but maybe dont call a large portion of the electorate racists and sexists so directly. Democrats might be able to get away with these sorts of things if the working class wasnt so fucked over and Democrats didnt operate at the behest of the people doing the fucking, but we dont live in that world so Democrats shouldn't overextend where they lack the good will to support them. Half of Trump supporters. (that half bit is kind of important) The fact people assume she was talking about them rather then the guy with a confederate flag or tiki torch standing next to them probably says something about themselves. Plus its basically a factual statement. A significant part of the Republican base are deplorable racists, sexists, homophobes and xenophobes and it makes no sense whatsoever for Democrats to try to appeal to them. You don’t see how saying half of a colossal group of people are vile is going to feel insulting to the group at large?… This mentality here is a losers mentality, because people are hopeless, they incapable of learning or improving themselves or doing better right? Maybe instead of scorning so many people as irreparable monsters we focused on dealing with some of the root causes why they may have developed those beliefs we might actually accomplish something but wait no I’m so sure your strategy of do nothing and pray Republicans just stay out of power and democracy holds up to future assault until maybe Democrats win by demographics and also hope Republicans change nothing and don’t find a way to appeal to other demographics and fuck over that whole plan. I bet average Trump brand Republicans wouldn’t be so susceptible to snake oil salesmen if they didn’t have to live in dried out husks of communities and suffer through poverty, but those are hard problems to solve and boy is it easier to write the whole group off. Plus then Democrats don’t have to deliver or mess with their donor interests! I see why it’s such an appealing prospect to politicians who aren’t interested in meaningful change for the better. So well said. It's sorta like telling a boiler technician that your coal power plant is going to close, but don't worry we're building wind farms and we will generate this amount of jobs, and that's the entirety of your plan. You're telling this man that he's going to lose his well-paying blue collar job, and he still has a mortgage and two kids. And his options are either work at the local Walmart or become an apprentice again, taking a pay cut of 50% or more in the process. Is it a surprise that if that's the best you can offer, they go vote for Trump? And did Trump give them a single coal job? No, because with or without the federal government the world is moving away from coal and those jobs are going to disappear regardless. One side promises to turn back the inevitable progress of time, the other offers an actual solution to the problem. But its not the perfect solution you want so instead you vote for the snake oil salesmen and get left with nothing. The real miracle is that this has been happening for decades and somehow these people still haven't figured out that the Republicans are not helping them one bit and that while the Democrats are very far from perfect atleast they try to come up with some sort of solution. All you said is true from a logical standpoint. Coal is going away whether people like it or not. What is hugely lacking is empathy and support. I remember when Hillary Clinton bragged that she was going to end coal. Good news for the environmentalists in the Democratic party, incredibly tone deaf to the people actually affected. Sadly I don't think the Democratic party has changed since then, and that's sad because the country really needs someone who really cares. And we're going to make it clear that we don't want to forget those people. Those people labored in those mines for generations, losing their health, often losing their lives to turn on our lights and power our factories.
Now we've got to move away from coal and all the other fossil fuels, but I don't want to move away from the people who did the best they could to produce the energy that we relied on.
Thats the part of the speech right after Hillary bragging about ending coal. Funny how no one talks about that part, or the 30 billion dollar plan to help those people and their communities.
Instead they vote for the guy promising to bring back coal mines. Despite no one, not even the coal companies themselves, wanting more coal miner jobs.
At some point I stop caring for people who repeatedly vote against their own interests because the other guy promises a unicorn that everyone knows he can't deliver on.
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Democrats control congress and the presidency, where is that plan now?
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On April 24 2022 21:04 Zambrah wrote:
Democrats control congress and the presidency, where is that plan now? Well for one it was Hillary's plan, not Biden. Don't know if he had one.
Secondly as I previous said the Democrats are a coalition that stretches from almost the entire European electoral spectrum from left to right, no surprise they can't agree on much with a tiny majority.
God knows what Biden is doing tho, with Congress being its usual useless self he should be pushing for whatever he can do himself
I'm not seeing the Democrats are great, their not but their better then the Republicans, even if that is an extremely low bar to pass these days.
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If Democrats arent doing anything for these people and Republicans arent doing anything then obviously the side thats actively pandering to them is going to be who wins their votes. To these people Democrats arent inherently better because both parties are contributing to fucking them over, so Republicans win out by virtue of at least pandering.
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On April 24 2022 21:21 Zambrah wrote:
If Democrats arent doing anything for these people and Republicans arent doing anything then obviously the side thats actively pandering to them is going to be who wins their votes. To these people Democrats arent inherently better because both parties are contributing to fucking them over, so Republicans win out by virtue of at least pandering.
Clinton offered an actual plan to help them. They said no. With their votes, they said they don't want help, they want business as usual. So now they're getting business as usual with Trump and Biden, and no amount of putting fingers in their ears and chanting lalalala will make business as usual beneficial.
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On April 24 2022 23:39 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2022 21:21 Zambrah wrote:
If Democrats arent doing anything for these people and Republicans arent doing anything then obviously the side thats actively pandering to them is going to be who wins their votes. To these people Democrats arent inherently better because both parties are contributing to fucking them over, so Republicans win out by virtue of at least pandering. Clinton offered an actual plan to help them. They said no. With their votes, they said they don't want help, they want business as usual. So now they're getting business as usual with Trump and Biden, and no amount of putting fingers in their ears and chanting lalalala will make business as usual beneficial.
Democrats offer a lot of plans, but given the state of things its safe to say the plans they hock during election season don't amount to much.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
Like the $15 minimum wage, whatever promises Clinton made for the coal miners aren't worth the e-paper they're printed on. It'll always be forgotten, neutered, or the failure of implementation blamed on losing the election / binders full of deplorables / Republicans / etc. And what's stopping Biden right now from implementing those alleged gloriously victorious plans to help coal miners revive?
Evidently the best "plan" anyone had for coal miners is for the world to have an energy crisis so that coal prices rise through the roof and suddenly make coal mining deeply profitable again. A pandemic and bungled green energy transition did more for coal miners than any presidential candidate with empty promises of helping them find this or that new job.
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United States42516 Posts
On April 24 2022 23:50 LegalLord wrote:
Like the $15 minimum wage, whatever promises Clinton made for the coal miners aren't worth the e-paper they're printed on. It'll always be forgotten, neutered, or the failure of implementation blamed on losing the election / binders full of deplorables / Republicans / etc. And what's stopping Biden right now from implementing those alleged gloriously victorious plans to help coal miners revive?
Evidently the best "plan" anyone had for coal miners is for the world to have an energy crisis so that coal prices rise through the roof and suddenly make coal mining deeply profitable again. A pandemic and bungled green energy transition did more for coal miners than any presidential candidate with empty promises of helping them find this or that new job.
BBB included those measures you’re attacking Biden for not attempting to pass.
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On April 24 2022 23:41 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2022 23:39 Gahlo wrote:On April 24 2022 21:21 Zambrah wrote:
If Democrats arent doing anything for these people and Republicans arent doing anything then obviously the side thats actively pandering to them is going to be who wins their votes. To these people Democrats arent inherently better because both parties are contributing to fucking them over, so Republicans win out by virtue of at least pandering. Clinton offered an actual plan to help them. They said no. With their votes, they said they don't want help, they want business as usual. So now they're getting business as usual with Trump and Biden, and no amount of putting fingers in their ears and chanting lalalala will make business as usual beneficial. Democrats offer a lot of plans, but given the state of things its safe to say the plans they hock during election season don't amount to much.
If the blanket assumption is that offers for help aren't genuine, then they shouldn't be asking for help anyway, because again - I don't think they want it. If the assumption is that the help wouldn't go through because it'd never make it to the president's desk, then people need to look at the staunch non-helpers they've enabled at lower positions who don't want to help and intend on obstructing.
This is like splitting bagels over and over again while cutting towards your hand and consistently complain about cutting yourself. Then when instructed to cut away from your hand, complaining that the already existing cuts hurt, and ultimately going back to cutting towards your hand. After all it seems like it doesn't make any difference, since your hand still hurts, and this is the way you've always cut bagels while the person who taught you to do that just says "be more careful".
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On April 25 2022 00:57 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2022 23:41 Zambrah wrote:On April 24 2022 23:39 Gahlo wrote:On April 24 2022 21:21 Zambrah wrote:
If Democrats arent doing anything for these people and Republicans arent doing anything then obviously the side thats actively pandering to them is going to be who wins their votes. To these people Democrats arent inherently better because both parties are contributing to fucking them over, so Republicans win out by virtue of at least pandering. Clinton offered an actual plan to help them. They said no. With their votes, they said they don't want help, they want business as usual. So now they're getting business as usual with Trump and Biden, and no amount of putting fingers in their ears and chanting lalalala will make business as usual beneficial. Democrats offer a lot of plans, but given the state of things its safe to say the plans they hock during election season don't amount to much. If the blanket assumption is that offers for help aren't genuine, then they shouldn't be asking for help anyway, because again - I don't think they want it. If the assumption is that the help wouldn't go through because it'd never make it to the president's desk, then people need to look at the staunch non-helpers they've enabled at lower positions who don't want to help and intend on obstructing. This is like splitting bagels over and over again while cutting towards your hand and consistently complain about cutting yourself. Then when instructed to cut away from your hand, complaining that the already existing cuts hurt, and ultimately going back to cutting towards your hand. After all it seems like it doesn't make any difference, since your hand still hurts, and this is the way you've always cut bagels while the person who taught you to do that just says "be more careful".
The long and short of it is that Democrats have a trust problem, rightfully earned, because they've rarely if ever actually fulfilled the promises they've made to the working class to make things better. No amount of victim blaming or excuses for lack of progress can hide that.
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On April 25 2022 01:05 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2022 00:57 Gahlo wrote:On April 24 2022 23:41 Zambrah wrote:On April 24 2022 23:39 Gahlo wrote:On April 24 2022 21:21 Zambrah wrote:
If Democrats arent doing anything for these people and Republicans arent doing anything then obviously the side thats actively pandering to them is going to be who wins their votes. To these people Democrats arent inherently better because both parties are contributing to fucking them over, so Republicans win out by virtue of at least pandering. Clinton offered an actual plan to help them. They said no. With their votes, they said they don't want help, they want business as usual. So now they're getting business as usual with Trump and Biden, and no amount of putting fingers in their ears and chanting lalalala will make business as usual beneficial. Democrats offer a lot of plans, but given the state of things its safe to say the plans they hock during election season don't amount to much. If the blanket assumption is that offers for help aren't genuine, then they shouldn't be asking for help anyway, because again - I don't think they want it. If the assumption is that the help wouldn't go through because it'd never make it to the president's desk, then people need to look at the staunch non-helpers they've enabled at lower positions who don't want to help and intend on obstructing. This is like splitting bagels over and over again while cutting towards your hand and consistently complain about cutting yourself. Then when instructed to cut away from your hand, complaining that the already existing cuts hurt, and ultimately going back to cutting towards your hand. After all it seems like it doesn't make any difference, since your hand still hurts, and this is the way you've always cut bagels while the person who taught you to do that just says "be more careful". The long and short of it is that Democrats have a trust problem, rightfully earned, because they've rarely if ever actually fulfilled the promises they've made to the working class to make things better. No amount of victim blaming or excuses for lack of progress can hide that.
Because the Republicans as such a strong track record. lol
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On April 25 2022 00:57 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2022 23:41 Zambrah wrote:On April 24 2022 23:39 Gahlo wrote:On April 24 2022 21:21 Zambrah wrote:
If Democrats arent doing anything for these people and Republicans arent doing anything then obviously the side thats actively pandering to them is going to be who wins their votes. To these people Democrats arent inherently better because both parties are contributing to fucking them over, so Republicans win out by virtue of at least pandering. Clinton offered an actual plan to help them. They said no. With their votes, they said they don't want help, they want business as usual. So now they're getting business as usual with Trump and Biden, and no amount of putting fingers in their ears and chanting lalalala will make business as usual beneficial. Democrats offer a lot of plans, but given the state of things its safe to say the plans they hock during election season don't amount to much. If the blanket assumption is that offers for help aren't genuine, then they shouldn't be asking for help anyway, because again - I don't think they want it. If the assumption is that the help wouldn't go through because it'd never make it to the president's desk, then people need to look at the staunch non-helpers they've enabled at lower positions who don't want to help and intend on obstructing. This is like splitting bagels over and over again while cutting towards your hand and consistently complain about cutting yourself. Then when instructed to cut away from your hand, complaining that the already existing cuts hurt, and ultimately going back to cutting towards your hand. After all it seems like it doesn't make any difference, since your hand still hurts, and this is the way you've always cut bagels while the person who taught you to do that just says "be more careful".
Yeah, there is zero trust in Democrats, they dont ask Democrats for help, they ask Republicans for help which is just as useless but at least Republicans bother to pander. They clearly want help or they'd stop voting entirely. The obstructors are fuckin' Democrats right now though, its very clear that a Democrat controlled Congress isn't willing to help these people so why are they going to vote Democrat? Its on Democrats, as people with power who can affect change, to get off their asses and prove that they are ready and willing to get shit done to earn these people's trust. Until that trust is earned then Democrats shouldnt be puzzled about why this previously staunchly Democrat voting bloc doesn't vote Democrat anymore.
Your analogy doesnt work because voting for Democrats hasnt proven to actually be a solution, your analogy is more apt if you replace "instructed to cut away from your hand," with "instructed to cut at a different angle thats still going towards your hand, maybe it cuts slightly less deep if youre lucky though." It doesnt make a difference because both pieces of advice leave you with cut hands. America doesnt offer a solution akin to "cut away from your hand."
On April 25 2022 01:11 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2022 01:05 LegalLord wrote:On April 25 2022 00:57 Gahlo wrote:On April 24 2022 23:41 Zambrah wrote:On April 24 2022 23:39 Gahlo wrote:On April 24 2022 21:21 Zambrah wrote:
If Democrats arent doing anything for these people and Republicans arent doing anything then obviously the side thats actively pandering to them is going to be who wins their votes. To these people Democrats arent inherently better because both parties are contributing to fucking them over, so Republicans win out by virtue of at least pandering. Clinton offered an actual plan to help them. They said no. With their votes, they said they don't want help, they want business as usual. So now they're getting business as usual with Trump and Biden, and no amount of putting fingers in their ears and chanting lalalala will make business as usual beneficial. Democrats offer a lot of plans, but given the state of things its safe to say the plans they hock during election season don't amount to much. If the blanket assumption is that offers for help aren't genuine, then they shouldn't be asking for help anyway, because again - I don't think they want it. If the assumption is that the help wouldn't go through because it'd never make it to the president's desk, then people need to look at the staunch non-helpers they've enabled at lower positions who don't want to help and intend on obstructing. This is like splitting bagels over and over again while cutting towards your hand and consistently complain about cutting yourself. Then when instructed to cut away from your hand, complaining that the already existing cuts hurt, and ultimately going back to cutting towards your hand. After all it seems like it doesn't make any difference, since your hand still hurts, and this is the way you've always cut bagels while the person who taught you to do that just says "be more careful". The long and short of it is that Democrats have a trust problem, rightfully earned, because they've rarely if ever actually fulfilled the promises they've made to the working class to make things better. No amount of victim blaming or excuses for lack of progress can hide that. Because the Republicans as such a strong track record. lol
See, this attitude is what baffles me, in what world is having a comparable record as the Republicans in anything what the bar should be? Why is being just as worthless as Republicans something that should incentivize someone to vote for you?
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Republicans don't need a strong track record because they promise nothing to the people that vote for.them and deliver tax breaks to the people that fund them.
Dems have a lot more structural issues with their refusal to engage with their base anymore and have somehow managed to lose social media to a bunch of old white men. You need to provide a positive reason for people to vote for you and democrats seems allergic to this. Anyone could have beat trump but they decided to test that with the worse candidate left standing.
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On April 24 2022 18:24 Zambrah wrote:
What an easy win the Child Tax Credit could have been but nooooooo, god, that'd be some piece of genuinely positive change Democrats brought about and we just can't have that. So you get it for one year and then under Democrat control it goes away, pissing off people who relied on it off far more than if they had just never gotten it.
Did not 50 Senate Democrats (counting VP Harris) support the legislative package that would have extended the expanded CTC? Wasn't Manchin the lone holdout that they had to convince?
Fifty Senate Democrats support the expanded CTC, fifty Senate Republicans oppose it, and the problem is both parties?
People seem to forget that even though Democrats are embarrassingly divided, and only 90% of Democrats can unify behind useful lesgislation, 100% of Republicans are against useful legislation every. single. time.
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Plenty of dem presidents have made empty promises to the working class. It's very far from clear cut that trump was promising a unicorn while his opposition was promising a solution. Obama promised the entire world to his voters (hint, he was lying to get elected) and didn't deliver much.
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On April 25 2022 01:46 Djabanete wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2022 18:24 Zambrah wrote:
What an easy win the Child Tax Credit could have been but nooooooo, god, that'd be some piece of genuinely positive change Democrats brought about and we just can't have that. So you get it for one year and then under Democrat control it goes away, pissing off people who relied on it off far more than if they had just never gotten it. Did not 50 Senate Democrats (counting VP Harris) support the legislative package that would have extended the expanded CTC? Wasn't Manchin the lone holdout that they had to convince? Fifty Senate Democrats support the expanded CTC, fifty Senate Republicans oppose it, and the problem is both parties? People seem to forget that even though Democrats are embarrassingly divided, and only 90% of Democrats can unify behind useful lesgislation, 100% of Republicans are against useful legislation every. single. time.
And the results are the same. And we've seen, even with a super majority in congress Democrats will only put forward extremely compromised legislation. They're, at their absolute strongest, still weak shit.
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EPT
