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On February 03 2022 20:40 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2022 16:36 Acrofales wrote:On February 03 2022 10:27 Introvert wrote:
"Cancel culture" is more tricky to identify with major public figures like Rogan, but I don't think I'm going out on a limb to say that when Joe Schmoe who works at the starbucks in the middle of nowhere has an old tweet and people mob his employer to get him fire that such a thing could reasonably be defined as "cancel culture."
Do you have any actual examples of this? I mean, I know cyber bullying is a problem but I don't think we should conflate the two things. Cancelling is used so widely that without talking about actual examples, I don't see how we advance here. Let me kick it off by saying there's legitimate reasons for firing people based on what you found on the internet. Would you want either of the two girls waiting a table in your restaurant, even if they left their cup at home? Would this be cancelling them over having taboo sex of their own free will? Or would they be legitimately fired for omitting working in a viral fetish porn video on their resume? E: just to be clear, I don't think I'd personally mind, nor do I think these two women should be shunned from society for their unfortunate choice to eat and play with each other's poop and vomit. However, I don't think it's crazy that past actions exclude you from some jobs. And being a "star" in one of the grossest things most people have ever seen obviously counts as a past action. I just heard a recent and much more common example. A local politician alterated 6 mistresses a once. None of them were at work or related to the party, and they were all into it by their free will. How he managed is another question, but they found out, and "blew a whistle" to the party as revenge for being decieved. His career was over. Nothing illegal had been going on, but the "court of public morale" still did it's work. I find things like this appalling, and there are many similar examples.
Well, the whole point was that introvert finds cancellation of public figures trickier, and politicians are by definition public figures, so your example won't work in that discussion.
But that aside, I am a bit confused how you think this is an example of "apalling" cancel culture? We're missing large parts of the story here, but the way you described it, it sounds like this man claimed to 6 different women to be in a monogamous relationship with them. When they found out he was lying to them, they made it public, and his political party fired him (assuming this is in Spain, he could then stay on as representative until the next elections, although usually arrangements are made and the seat goes to a different party member). This seems entirely normal. Just because it isn't illegal doesn't mean it isn't amoral. And one would like to think we hold our politicians accountable for their morality, even though that is often hard to see...
Now, if I am wrong, and what actually happened is that this guy was a hippy in a polyamorous group "marriage" with 6 different women, that somehow turned sour, then his political ideals become important. If he was chosen because of his strong stance on family values, this obviously undermines him even if he wasn't lying to anybody. If he was chosen in a party like Podemos, you'd think nobody would really give a crap, and your outrage might be justified (although he might still have been seen as lying to the public/his party if he hadn't been open about this polyamorous situation on previous occasions).
And finally, I cannot find any information about this in either English or Spanish, so for the whole thing: [citation needed]
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
My bad Slydie, too much sleep deprivation and Boris Johnson party scandals on the brain, misread that somehow as this politician had attended a party (with all 6 mistresses in my head at said party, a ballsy move) which they then leaked to the media.
See now they told his political party.
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On February 03 2022 23:14 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2022 13:22 Mohdoo wrote:On February 03 2022 11:17 gobbledydook wrote:
Joe Rogan is definitely an asshole but you know you aren't forced to listen to him right? Just don't listen to him if you are offended. His message reaches a huge audience and he is extremely influential on a lot of impressionable young people. Choosing not to listen to him does not prevent the damage he does. What's Joe Rogan's message as you see it and what's the damage he does?
For the past two years he has had on maybe 3 or 4 actual medical experts or advocates for vaccines. And has had over a 100 people actively hesitating or even warning people about the dangers of vaccines, and promoting unproven alternatives.
Even if the numbers were equal 50/50, it would still be shit. On top of that, Rogan pushed back at every advocate for the entire show, while those hesitating or putting for conspiracies, he loved it. On top of that top he also claims to be just “asking questions” but will say he has read 100s of studies and is more knowledgeable than actual experts. Or can see through the lies. Or whatever.
As someone else has put it it’s like knowing 9/10 dentists recommend flossing. And he brings on the 1 that doesn’t. Who just happens to sell alternatives and doesn’t trust the mainstream legacy Dentite conspiracy. That’s Joe Rogan.
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On February 03 2022 21:44 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2022 20:40 Slydie wrote:On February 03 2022 16:36 Acrofales wrote:On February 03 2022 10:27 Introvert wrote:
"Cancel culture" is more tricky to identify with major public figures like Rogan, but I don't think I'm going out on a limb to say that when Joe Schmoe who works at the starbucks in the middle of nowhere has an old tweet and people mob his employer to get him fire that such a thing could reasonably be defined as "cancel culture."
Do you have any actual examples of this? I mean, I know cyber bullying is a problem but I don't think we should conflate the two things. Cancelling is used so widely that without talking about actual examples, I don't see how we advance here. Let me kick it off by saying there's legitimate reasons for firing people based on what you found on the internet. Would you want either of the two girls waiting a table in your restaurant, even if they left their cup at home? Would this be cancelling them over having taboo sex of their own free will? Or would they be legitimately fired for omitting working in a viral fetish porn video on their resume? E: just to be clear, I don't think I'd personally mind, nor do I think these two women should be shunned from society for their unfortunate choice to eat and play with each other's poop and vomit. However, I don't think it's crazy that past actions exclude you from some jobs. And being a "star" in one of the grossest things most people have ever seen obviously counts as a past action. I just heard a recent and much more common example. A local politician alterated 6 mistresses a once. None of them were at work or related to the party, and they were all into it by their free will. How he managed is another question, but they found out, and "blew a whistle" to the party as revenge for being decieved. His career was over. Nothing illegal had been going on, but the "court of public morale" still did it's work. I find things like this appalling, and there are many similar examples. Your surprised people are not ok with a guy sleeping with 6 different women behind their backs? I'd want my representative to be someone with some integrity (in so far as that is possible in this day and age). Someone sleeping around with 6 different women behind their backs does not strike me as a person of integrity. The key here is 'deceived'.
This case might be a dividing one. The man was married as well has having those 6 affairs.
I am not defending his actions, but it raises some interresting questions about mixing private and political life. I want to judge politicians for what they do at work, not in the bedroom.
Here is a source to the story in Norwegian:
https://www.nettavisen.no/nyheter/gift-mann-hadde-forhold-til-seks-kvinner-samtidig-ekskludert-fra-senterpartiet/s/12-95-3424211235
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Norway28929 Posts
The 6 women in this case claim that he lied to them and deceived them and gave them false hope. So it's essentially a married guy going 'yeah me and my wife are getting divorced soon and I'm gonna dedicate myself to you all the way, we have a future together' to 6 different women at the same time. There's also the claim that he abused his position as a somewhat prominent politician to appear more trustworthy than he was.
I don't care if people are monogamous or not, for all I care people are entirely free to engage in consensual gay fisting orgies, but this is a clear moral failing and I would not want to vote for a politician who behaved in this manner.
Now, 'where does the line go' is somewhat of an interesting question, because I wouldn't necessarily feel the same way about a guy who cheats on his wife with one woman, even though I also find that immoral. But there's some tipping point where it's too much. 6 at the same time is like, seriously deceitful, that's not the 'oh god doing this is wrong but I can't help myself' that I think a lot of cheaters actually experience while cheating.
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On February 04 2022 00:19 JimmiC wrote:
I always find the affair thing strange in the sense that I would think conservative or religious partys wpuld be super harsh about it but they tend actually to be very forgiving of their own people who do it, not the others but their own there is usually a lot of tears and blah blah then its forgotten about. Trump was an odd case because he never apologized, or denied and his religious supporters just ignored that he was having multiple affairs with porn stars with a pregant wife and paying him off. He appears to be a special case in many ways.
It's probably some combination of No True Scotsman and Special Pleading.
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On February 03 2022 23:55 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2022 21:44 Gorsameth wrote:On February 03 2022 20:40 Slydie wrote:On February 03 2022 16:36 Acrofales wrote:On February 03 2022 10:27 Introvert wrote:
"Cancel culture" is more tricky to identify with major public figures like Rogan, but I don't think I'm going out on a limb to say that when Joe Schmoe who works at the starbucks in the middle of nowhere has an old tweet and people mob his employer to get him fire that such a thing could reasonably be defined as "cancel culture."
Do you have any actual examples of this? I mean, I know cyber bullying is a problem but I don't think we should conflate the two things. Cancelling is used so widely that without talking about actual examples, I don't see how we advance here. Let me kick it off by saying there's legitimate reasons for firing people based on what you found on the internet. Would you want either of the two girls waiting a table in your restaurant, even if they left their cup at home? Would this be cancelling them over having taboo sex of their own free will? Or would they be legitimately fired for omitting working in a viral fetish porn video on their resume? E: just to be clear, I don't think I'd personally mind, nor do I think these two women should be shunned from society for their unfortunate choice to eat and play with each other's poop and vomit. However, I don't think it's crazy that past actions exclude you from some jobs. And being a "star" in one of the grossest things most people have ever seen obviously counts as a past action. I just heard a recent and much more common example. A local politician alterated 6 mistresses a once. None of them were at work or related to the party, and they were all into it by their free will. How he managed is another question, but they found out, and "blew a whistle" to the party as revenge for being decieved. His career was over. Nothing illegal had been going on, but the "court of public morale" still did it's work. I find things like this appalling, and there are many similar examples. Your surprised people are not ok with a guy sleeping with 6 different women behind their backs? I'd want my representative to be someone with some integrity (in so far as that is possible in this day and age). Someone sleeping around with 6 different women behind their backs does not strike me as a person of integrity. The key here is 'deceived'. This case might be a dividing one. The man was married as well has having those 6 affairs. I am not defending his actions, but it raises some interresting questions about mixing private and political life. I want to judge politicians for what they do at work, not in the bedroom. Here is a source to the story in Norwegian: https://www.nettavisen.no/nyheter/gift-mann-hadde-forhold-til-seks-kvinner-samtidig-ekskludert-fra-senterpartiet/s/12-95-3424211235 Its not what they do in their bedroom. It the deception that reflects on their character and that will be reflected on their work.
The problem isn't that he slept with 6 women, its that he lied to them. If it was a politician that would go with his wife to swinger parties and slept with a dozen other couples I wouldn't care, its that he deceived everyone involved that crosses the line, for me anyway.
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United States44449 Posts
On February 04 2022 00:19 JimmiC wrote:
I always find the affair thing strange in the sense that I would think conservative or religious partys wpuld be super harsh about it but they tend actually to be very forgiving of their own people who do it, not the others but their own there is usually a lot of tears and blah blah then its forgotten about. Trump was an odd case because he never apologized, or denied and his religious supporters just ignored that he was having multiple affairs with porn stars with a pregant wife and paying him off. He appears to be a special case in many ways.
Newt Gingrich was impressively awful too but Roger Stone set the bar with his pressuring his wife into having sex with other men, preferably black men (just what he likes I guess), while he watched. In their divorce she claimed that there wasn’t much consent involved.
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On February 04 2022 00:19 JimmiC wrote:
I always find the affair thing strange in the sense that I would think conservative or religious partys wpuld be super harsh about it but they tend actually to be very forgiving of their own people who do it, not the others but their own there is usually a lot of tears and blah blah then its forgotten about. Trump was an odd case because he never apologized, or denied and his religious supporters just ignored that he was having multiple affairs with porn stars with a pregant wife and paying him off. He appears to be a special case in many ways. Kwark has talked in the past about the the conservative deference to authority and the need to protect said authority figures. This is all just variations of that.
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On February 04 2022 00:09 Liquid`Drone wrote:
The 6 women in this case claim that he lied to them and deceived them and gave them false hope. So it's essentially a married guy going 'yeah me and my wife are getting divorced soon and I'm gonna dedicate myself to you all the way, we have a future together' to 6 different women at the same time. There's also the claim that he abused his position as a somewhat prominent politician to appear more trustworthy than he was.
I don't care if people are monogamous or not, for all I care people are entirely free to engage in consensual gay fisting orgies, but this is a clear moral failing and I would not want to vote for a politician who behaved in this manner.
Now, 'where does the line go' is somewhat of an interesting question, because I wouldn't necessarily feel the same way about a guy who cheats on his wife with one woman, even though I also find that immoral. But there's some tipping point where it's too much. 6 at the same time is like, seriously deceitful, that's not the 'oh god doing this is wrong but I can't help myself' that I think a lot of cheaters actually experience while cheating.
I would also view someone cheating on his wife with one woman as problematic.
The key thing is not the sleeping with multiple people, it is the "deceiving important people in your life who trust you" thing. If you want to sleep with other women beside your wife, there are two morally acceptable ways of doing so. Convince your wife to have an open marriage, or divorce your wife.
Sure, this gets worse the more often it happens, and there is also a difference between "It happened once in 1985" and "I have constantly been cheating on my wife for the last 10 years, and am still doing it".
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On February 04 2022 00:19 JimmiC wrote:
I always find the affair thing strange in the sense that I would think conservative or religious partys wpuld be super harsh about it but they tend actually to be very forgiving of their own people who do it, not the others but their own there is usually a lot of tears and blah blah then its forgotten about. Trump was an odd case because he never apologized, or denied and his religious supporters just ignored that he was having multiple affairs with porn stars with a pregant wife and paying him off. He appears to be a special case in many ways.
Recently, there emerged sort of scandal in Poland. It turns out that two members of superconservative (Kremlin backed) group of influence, which fights abortion, promote hardcore Catholicism and recently proposed to ban divorces, had an affair. Both the woman and man were married and both are now getting divorce. Normally, it wouldn't be an issue. But the fact that they pretended to be all holy and just a few weeks ago advocated against divorces is hilarious. It also shows the true colors of conservatives. "Rules are for everyone but us. When it comes to ourselves, there are always mitigating circumstances".
I am sure their backers and believers will forgive them in no time.
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On February 04 2022 02:33 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2022 00:19 JimmiC wrote:
I always find the affair thing strange in the sense that I would think conservative or religious partys wpuld be super harsh about it but they tend actually to be very forgiving of their own people who do it, not the others but their own there is usually a lot of tears and blah blah then its forgotten about. Trump was an odd case because he never apologized, or denied and his religious supporters just ignored that he was having multiple affairs with porn stars with a pregant wife and paying him off. He appears to be a special case in many ways. Recently, there emerged sort of scandal in Poland. It turns out that two members of superconservative (Kremlin backed) group of influence, which fights abortion, promote hardcore Catholicism and recently proposed to ban divorces, had an affair. Both the woman and man were married and both are now getting divorce. Normally, it wouldn't be an issue. But the fact that they pretended to be all holy and just a few weeks ago advocated against divorces is hilarious. It also shows the true colors of conservatives. "Rules are for everyone but us. When it comes to ourselves, there are always mitigating circumstances". I am sure their backers and believers will forgive them in no time.
They can get forgiven every week with communion. Tender mercies.
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On February 03 2022 22:48 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2022 22:15 gobbledydook wrote:
I find the focus on LGBT issues excessive.
I believe studies showed there are approximately 3% LGBT people. We don't fuss over the lives of any other group with similar obsession.
Why are people so worried that 3% of the population is going to cause doomsday? Because hating on blacks or latino's is made harder and harder by social pressure and discrimination laws. The entire idelogy needs an 'other' to hate on, to blame for everything that is perceived to be wrong in the world. When the previous enemy stop being a viable option they move on to the next. LGB are coming less socially acceptable to hate on so increasingly the pressure moves to hating on Trans. Until they lose that battle as well and being trans becomes more acceptable, and then they will find a new marginalized group to hate on.
It's not just their ideology, it's intrinsic to capitalism too. Though rather than simply "hate" it is exploitation and oppression accompanied by the myth of meritocracy.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
Words fail me. It’s not like there aren’t verifiable, actual instances and root causes of child trafficking that one could protest or take action over, if one actually cared about the issue.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On February 04 2022 03:06 Husyelt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2022 02:33 Silvanel wrote:On February 04 2022 00:19 JimmiC wrote:
I always find the affair thing strange in the sense that I would think conservative or religious partys wpuld be super harsh about it but they tend actually to be very forgiving of their own people who do it, not the others but their own there is usually a lot of tears and blah blah then its forgotten about. Trump was an odd case because he never apologized, or denied and his religious supporters just ignored that he was having multiple affairs with porn stars with a pregant wife and paying him off. He appears to be a special case in many ways. Recently, there emerged sort of scandal in Poland. It turns out that two members of superconservative (Kremlin backed) group of influence, which fights abortion, promote hardcore Catholicism and recently proposed to ban divorces, had an affair. Both the woman and man were married and both are now getting divorce. Normally, it wouldn't be an issue. But the fact that they pretended to be all holy and just a few weeks ago advocated against divorces is hilarious. It also shows the true colors of conservatives. "Rules are for everyone but us. When it comes to ourselves, there are always mitigating circumstances". I am sure their backers and believers will forgive them in no time. They can get forgiven every week with communion. Tender mercies.
What about us poor Protestants what do we do?
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On February 04 2022 03:27 WombaT wrote:
Words fail me. It’s not like there aren’t verifiable, actual instances and root causes of child trafficking that one could protest or take action over, if one actually cared about the issue.
Well, yeah. As soon as you concede that the stated reason for political attacks is not necessarily the actual reason, the actual reason stands out in stark relief. They challenged Dear Leader on his hostile, racist, and comically ineffective wall. They had to go down.
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On February 04 2022 03:28 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2022 03:06 Husyelt wrote:On February 04 2022 02:33 Silvanel wrote:On February 04 2022 00:19 JimmiC wrote:
I always find the affair thing strange in the sense that I would think conservative or religious partys wpuld be super harsh about it but they tend actually to be very forgiving of their own people who do it, not the others but their own there is usually a lot of tears and blah blah then its forgotten about. Trump was an odd case because he never apologized, or denied and his religious supporters just ignored that he was having multiple affairs with porn stars with a pregant wife and paying him off. He appears to be a special case in many ways. Recently, there emerged sort of scandal in Poland. It turns out that two members of superconservative (Kremlin backed) group of influence, which fights abortion, promote hardcore Catholicism and recently proposed to ban divorces, had an affair. Both the woman and man were married and both are now getting divorce. Normally, it wouldn't be an issue. But the fact that they pretended to be all holy and just a few weeks ago advocated against divorces is hilarious. It also shows the true colors of conservatives. "Rules are for everyone but us. When it comes to ourselves, there are always mitigating circumstances". I am sure their backers and believers will forgive them in no time. They can get forgiven every week with communion. Tender mercies. What about us poor Protestants what do we do?
Worse for you, i think you have to actually regret the bad stuff you did to be forgiven.
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On February 03 2022 20:35 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2022 19:39 Dan HH wrote:On February 03 2022 13:22 Mohdoo wrote:On February 03 2022 11:17 gobbledydook wrote:
Joe Rogan is definitely an asshole but you know you aren't forced to listen to him right? Just don't listen to him if you are offended. His message reaches a huge audience and he is extremely influential on a lot of impressionable young people. Choosing not to listen to him does not prevent the damage he does. I'm certain that if we only consumed pre-sanitized information back when we were all impressionable teens, our critical thinking skills would be worse off now rather than better. Around 15 I was listening to a lot of Immortal Technique thinking it was the cleverest shit ever and yet I'm not a homophobic conspiracy theorist. Teenagers becoming radicalized and holding those views after they reach adulthood is a thing. For instance, if instead of Joe Rogan, we were talking about Islamic radicalisation through a podcast, would you still agree that it's fine and people should just use their critical thinking skills?
A lot of older people who were never exposed to internet culture and were completely unprepared to deal with it were suddenly thrown into the fray by the explosion of smartphones and facebook and are now using lingo they don't understand, going to rallies of far-right parties, and harassing medical staff, poll workers, retail staff enforcing mandates, etc with memorized nonsensical lines.
I'm much less worried about curious teens who start their journey into political, social and philosophical issues via pseudo-intellectual entertainment, than I am about oblivious older people unequipped to deal with a change in the kind of information that reaches them. I've talked with people from both of these groups, and only the ones with the former group can even be called conversations.
As to your question, we don't even have to go as far as Islamic holy war for that, what Alex Jones has done to Sandy Hook victims is criminal, but do note that his impressionable audience spurred to action looks more like this or this.
The young ones are fine, they are learning to navigate bullshit by necessity much earlier than we did. If there's anyone we need to shelter more, it's old fools that never did that.
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EPT
