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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
There was support for war in Iraq because it was sold to the unwashed masses as a righteous and noble thing that would make the entire world a safer and better place. I do think voters would do well to be a tad more careful with what they support and what they vote for, but let's not pretend war in Iraq would get anywhere near as much support had the American government been honest and forthcoming about the whole affair.
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Norway28789 Posts
Yeah, the Iraq war had support because you had a propaganda machinery lying to people about why you had to go there.
It's important to distinguish Iraq from Afghanistan anyway. I was negative towards both, but there existed valid arguments for the invasion of Afghanistan. Iraq was a complete travesty and every person majorily involved in the decision to go there should still be in jail for war crimes.
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Afghanistan definitely seemed promising at first and went well in the early years, especially 2001-2003. Even into the Obama era, there was a widespread sentiment of, maybe Iraq is a lost cause but we can still do a lot of good in Afghanistan. A nice hefty surge of troops to go with it as well.
We are far enough past that point that there can be no doubt that it didn't work out. There's no win condition for the US in Afghanistan; the non-Taliban government is clearly falling apart and the US can't hold the country together by sheer force and direct military involvement. The whole "abandoning our allies" shtick remains popular among warmongers and those who always wanted a 100-year occupation, but it's a losing battle. Better to just take the loss at this point.
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On August 14 2021 07:37 BisuDagger wrote:
I want to preface, I am not well studied on the state of affairs in Afghanistan. My question as follows:
I’m happy the US left the country for the sake of not wanting the US to meddle in other peoples countries. However, I am extremely sad to see the country slipping away rapidly. I am less curious about what America could do going forward, and more curious what other countries around the world (besides Russia and China) are going to do or at least what are they thinking. Is everyone just waiting for America to react and handle it, or is anyone else wanting to try and take on this problem? Or do a lot of countries think let them solve their problems and leave it alone?
To extract their people from their respective embassies those countries will certainly send troops (very small numbers) to help with the extraction, however, after that I'm sure other countries will play the waiting game until the US decides to "re-invade" which will definitely happen by the end of this year.
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On August 14 2021 16:44 LegalLord wrote:Afghanistan definitely seemed promising at first and went well in the early years, especially 2001-2003. Even into the Obama era, there was a widespread sentiment of, maybe Iraq is a lost cause but we can still do a lot of good in Afghanistan. A nice hefty surge of troops to go with it as well. We are far enough past that point that there can be no doubt that it didn't work out. There's no win condition for the US in Afghanistan; the non-Taliban government is clearly falling apart and the US can't hold the country together by sheer force and direct military involvement. The whole "abandoning our allies" shtick remains popular among warmongers and those who always wanted a 100-year occupation, but it's a losing battle. Better to just take the loss at this point.
That seems to be painting the abject failure in both long and short term planning there with a rather colorful brush. I was under the impression you were more knowledgeable and critical about the US's forays abroad, but alas.
The Guardian had a pretty good piece on how the US's various bad ideas led to the complete collapse the moment they pulled troops: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/12/afghanistan-us-military-analysis-biden-rumsfeld
No doubt the Afghan government deserves their share of blame, and at some point you have to accept that it is just too expensive and difficult to prop up this unworthy regime despite the alternative being far far worse, but the Taliban could have been hunted down far better, and the government could have been set up with a far more capable army. And even if you didn't do that, at least don't hastily pull troops with no preparation at the worst possible time.
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On August 14 2021 12:01 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2021 11:50 Acrofales wrote:On August 14 2021 11:22 Mohdoo wrote:
The satisfaction I feel seeing people saddened by the state of Afghanistan brings me true joy. It is another reminder that letting the average idiot on the street offer their opinion on foreign policy is a disaster. There was enormous public pressure (which shouldn't exist) for the military to basically totally shit the bed. Eventually the military was forced to shit the bed. Now people are wondering why the country we kept afloat is sinking once we left.
Here's what we should all remember: People with very specialized careers should make these decisions. Not Cletus. Except that Cletus served a tour there, Cletus' brother is still there and they both lost a few friends there. So Cletus most definitely has an opinion on whether the military should still be there... People with specialized careers made the decision to go in (Rumsfeld and his buddies). That decision was hasty and had no plan beyond regime change and then hunt Al Qaeda (and not doing that very well, because turns out a mountainous desert is a fucking awful place to try to find guerilla fighters who have local support). It comes as no surprise that Cletus now doesn't trust further specialized career people and wants his brother to come home from the forever war... So long as Cletus decides it is ethical to enlist in a military, I have a hard time feeling pity when it doesn’t go well. I mourn their deaths but an easy solution is not to participate. If cletus has a big emotional impact from the war, perhaps one of the worst possible people to ask. It’s like asking Malheur folks how to manage land. Proximity doesn’t make expertise
Maybe Cletus just wanted to go to college without having to saddle himself with 25+ years of student debt. Or maybe he needed healthcare. Tons of people that are in the military are there as a means to an end.
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United States43964 Posts
On August 14 2021 17:45 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2021 16:44 LegalLord wrote:Afghanistan definitely seemed promising at first and went well in the early years, especially 2001-2003. Even into the Obama era, there was a widespread sentiment of, maybe Iraq is a lost cause but we can still do a lot of good in Afghanistan. A nice hefty surge of troops to go with it as well. We are far enough past that point that there can be no doubt that it didn't work out. There's no win condition for the US in Afghanistan; the non-Taliban government is clearly falling apart and the US can't hold the country together by sheer force and direct military involvement. The whole "abandoning our allies" shtick remains popular among warmongers and those who always wanted a 100-year occupation, but it's a losing battle. Better to just take the loss at this point. That seems to be painting the abject failure in both long and short term planning there with a rather colorful brush. I was under the impression you were more knowledgeable and critical about the US's forays abroad, but alas. The Guardian had a pretty good piece on how the US's various bad ideas led to the complete collapse the moment they pulled troops: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/12/afghanistan-us-military-analysis-biden-rumsfeldNo doubt the Afghan government deserves their share of blame, and at some point you have to accept that it is just too expensive and difficult to prop up this unworthy regime despite the alternative being far far worse, but the Taliban could have been hunted down far better, and the government could have been set up with a far more capable army. And even if you didn't do that, at least don't hastily pull troops with no preparation at the worst possible time.
Some of the issues in that article such as officers claiming cash pay to pass on to however many soldiers they claim to command and soldiers extorting civilians are copied verbatim from the Vietnam history books. It’s ironic that the US tried to make Afghanistan another Vietnam style quagmire for the USSR and then fell into it.
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On August 14 2021 04:03 Liquid`Drone wrote:
While I can't really recall my source for this (other than that I considered it trustworthy), I remember reading that the US was very deliberately turning Afghanistan into a quagmire for the Soviets - wanting it to become 'their' Vietnam. Not just through training Mujahedeen to fight against the Soviets - but through - for several years - only giving them enough weapons and training to resist the Soviets, but without giving them enough weapons to repel them. In particular, they avoided supplying the Afghans with anti-air weaponry (stinger missiles), calculating that if they did, they would end up shooting down too costly helicopters too soon, which might make the Soviet Union withdraw before the war had been sufficiently costly for them. So, instead, they encouraged the war to further entrench itself for like 6 years before they finally ended up supplying the Stinger missiles - and after that, the Soviet Union withdrew rather quickly. (By cold war warfare-standards at least.)
Considering how brutal this war was for the Afghan people (not just the fault of the US - the Soviet Union did stuff like manufacture explosive dolls to specifically target children), I can't really blame Afghans, who learned that the US intentionally prolonged the war to make it more costly for the Soviet Union, for absolutely detesting the US.
The way the US won the cold war was through some absolutely abhorrent tactics, on multiple continents. I'm not claiming the Soviet Union was less abhorrent - but either way, those tactics built up a whole lot of very real and very warranted resentment towards the US.
Any chance you can still find the source? As far as I know the US couldn't really deliver any more sophisticated weaponry since it had to go through Pakistan and they didn't want to be directly associated to the US at that time.
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On August 14 2021 20:47 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2021 17:45 Acrofales wrote:On August 14 2021 16:44 LegalLord wrote:Afghanistan definitely seemed promising at first and went well in the early years, especially 2001-2003. Even into the Obama era, there was a widespread sentiment of, maybe Iraq is a lost cause but we can still do a lot of good in Afghanistan. A nice hefty surge of troops to go with it as well. We are far enough past that point that there can be no doubt that it didn't work out. There's no win condition for the US in Afghanistan; the non-Taliban government is clearly falling apart and the US can't hold the country together by sheer force and direct military involvement. The whole "abandoning our allies" shtick remains popular among warmongers and those who always wanted a 100-year occupation, but it's a losing battle. Better to just take the loss at this point. That seems to be painting the abject failure in both long and short term planning there with a rather colorful brush. I was under the impression you were more knowledgeable and critical about the US's forays abroad, but alas. The Guardian had a pretty good piece on how the US's various bad ideas led to the complete collapse the moment they pulled troops: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/12/afghanistan-us-military-analysis-biden-rumsfeldNo doubt the Afghan government deserves their share of blame, and at some point you have to accept that it is just too expensive and difficult to prop up this unworthy regime despite the alternative being far far worse, but the Taliban could have been hunted down far better, and the government could have been set up with a far more capable army. And even if you didn't do that, at least don't hastily pull troops with no preparation at the worst possible time. Some of the issues in that article such as officers claiming cash pay to pass on to however many soldiers they claim to command and soldiers extorting civilians are copied verbatim from the Vietnam history books. It’s ironic that the US tried to make Afghanistan another Vietnam style quagmire for the USSR and then fell into it.
The parallels with Vietnam are truly remarkable.
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Northern Ireland26740 Posts
On August 14 2021 21:16 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2021 20:47 KwarK wrote:On August 14 2021 17:45 Acrofales wrote:On August 14 2021 16:44 LegalLord wrote:Afghanistan definitely seemed promising at first and went well in the early years, especially 2001-2003. Even into the Obama era, there was a widespread sentiment of, maybe Iraq is a lost cause but we can still do a lot of good in Afghanistan. A nice hefty surge of troops to go with it as well. We are far enough past that point that there can be no doubt that it didn't work out. There's no win condition for the US in Afghanistan; the non-Taliban government is clearly falling apart and the US can't hold the country together by sheer force and direct military involvement. The whole "abandoning our allies" shtick remains popular among warmongers and those who always wanted a 100-year occupation, but it's a losing battle. Better to just take the loss at this point. That seems to be painting the abject failure in both long and short term planning there with a rather colorful brush. I was under the impression you were more knowledgeable and critical about the US's forays abroad, but alas. The Guardian had a pretty good piece on how the US's various bad ideas led to the complete collapse the moment they pulled troops: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/12/afghanistan-us-military-analysis-biden-rumsfeldNo doubt the Afghan government deserves their share of blame, and at some point you have to accept that it is just too expensive and difficult to prop up this unworthy regime despite the alternative being far far worse, but the Taliban could have been hunted down far better, and the government could have been set up with a far more capable army. And even if you didn't do that, at least don't hastily pull troops with no preparation at the worst possible time. Some of the issues in that article such as officers claiming cash pay to pass on to however many soldiers they claim to command and soldiers extorting civilians are copied verbatim from the Vietnam history books. It’s ironic that the US tried to make Afghanistan another Vietnam style quagmire for the USSR and then fell into it. The parallels with Vietnam are truly remarkable.
Well silver lining I suppose we’ll get some great films down the line then.
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On August 14 2021 20:12 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2021 12:01 Mohdoo wrote:On August 14 2021 11:50 Acrofales wrote:On August 14 2021 11:22 Mohdoo wrote:
The satisfaction I feel seeing people saddened by the state of Afghanistan brings me true joy. It is another reminder that letting the average idiot on the street offer their opinion on foreign policy is a disaster. There was enormous public pressure (which shouldn't exist) for the military to basically totally shit the bed. Eventually the military was forced to shit the bed. Now people are wondering why the country we kept afloat is sinking once we left.
Here's what we should all remember: People with very specialized careers should make these decisions. Not Cletus. Except that Cletus served a tour there, Cletus' brother is still there and they both lost a few friends there. So Cletus most definitely has an opinion on whether the military should still be there... People with specialized careers made the decision to go in (Rumsfeld and his buddies). That decision was hasty and had no plan beyond regime change and then hunt Al Qaeda (and not doing that very well, because turns out a mountainous desert is a fucking awful place to try to find guerilla fighters who have local support). It comes as no surprise that Cletus now doesn't trust further specialized career people and wants his brother to come home from the forever war... So long as Cletus decides it is ethical to enlist in a military, I have a hard time feeling pity when it doesn’t go well. I mourn their deaths but an easy solution is not to participate. If cletus has a big emotional impact from the war, perhaps one of the worst possible people to ask. It’s like asking Malheur folks how to manage land. Proximity doesn’t make expertise Maybe Cletus just wanted to go to college without having to saddle himself with 25+ years of student debt. Or maybe he needed healthcare. Tons of people that are in the military are there as a means to an end.
And he chose to pick up a gun and point it at people to make that money: I can’t pretend there aren’t ethical considerations there.
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On August 14 2021 17:45 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2021 16:44 LegalLord wrote:Afghanistan definitely seemed promising at first and went well in the early years, especially 2001-2003. Even into the Obama era, there was a widespread sentiment of, maybe Iraq is a lost cause but we can still do a lot of good in Afghanistan. A nice hefty surge of troops to go with it as well. We are far enough past that point that there can be no doubt that it didn't work out. There's no win condition for the US in Afghanistan; the non-Taliban government is clearly falling apart and the US can't hold the country together by sheer force and direct military involvement. The whole "abandoning our allies" shtick remains popular among warmongers and those who always wanted a 100-year occupation, but it's a losing battle. Better to just take the loss at this point. That seems to be painting the abject failure in both long and short term planning there with a rather colorful brush. I was under the impression you were more knowledgeable and critical about the US's forays abroad, but alas. The Guardian had a pretty good piece on how the US's various bad ideas led to the complete collapse the moment they pulled troops: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/12/afghanistan-us-military-analysis-biden-rumsfeldNo doubt the Afghan government deserves their share of blame, and at some point you have to accept that it is just too expensive and difficult to prop up this unworthy regime despite the alternative being far far worse, but the Taliban could have been hunted down far better, and the government could have been set up with a far more capable army. And even if you didn't do that, at least don't hastily pull troops with no preparation at the worst possible time.
Not sure what your point is, to be honest. I agree that there were better ways to have handled Afghanistan over the years, but the reality in 2021 is basically the bolded. Maybe the idea is that Trump blundered by withdrawing too early; it certainly seems like the viability of the Afghan government started to fail somewhere around the time of his early presidency (though probably earlier; it looked like things were destined for failure by 2015). Maybe the US should have chosen a better puppet government. Coulda, shoulda, woulda; the only strategies right now are to withdraw, have another surge and attempt to break the Taliban again, or slowly watch the Taliban win against a garrison about the current size. Which one of those is the best option to go with?
On August 15 2021 00:10 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2021 20:12 Gahlo wrote:On August 14 2021 12:01 Mohdoo wrote:On August 14 2021 11:50 Acrofales wrote:On August 14 2021 11:22 Mohdoo wrote:
The satisfaction I feel seeing people saddened by the state of Afghanistan brings me true joy. It is another reminder that letting the average idiot on the street offer their opinion on foreign policy is a disaster. There was enormous public pressure (which shouldn't exist) for the military to basically totally shit the bed. Eventually the military was forced to shit the bed. Now people are wondering why the country we kept afloat is sinking once we left.
Here's what we should all remember: People with very specialized careers should make these decisions. Not Cletus. Except that Cletus served a tour there, Cletus' brother is still there and they both lost a few friends there. So Cletus most definitely has an opinion on whether the military should still be there... People with specialized careers made the decision to go in (Rumsfeld and his buddies). That decision was hasty and had no plan beyond regime change and then hunt Al Qaeda (and not doing that very well, because turns out a mountainous desert is a fucking awful place to try to find guerilla fighters who have local support). It comes as no surprise that Cletus now doesn't trust further specialized career people and wants his brother to come home from the forever war... So long as Cletus decides it is ethical to enlist in a military, I have a hard time feeling pity when it doesn’t go well. I mourn their deaths but an easy solution is not to participate. If cletus has a big emotional impact from the war, perhaps one of the worst possible people to ask. It’s like asking Malheur folks how to manage land. Proximity doesn’t make expertise Maybe Cletus just wanted to go to college without having to saddle himself with 25+ years of student debt. Or maybe he needed healthcare. Tons of people that are in the military are there as a means to an end. And he chose to pick up a gun and point it at people to make that money: I can’t pretend there aren’t ethical considerations there.
...abolish the military?
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On August 14 2021 07:37 BisuDagger wrote:
I want to preface, I am not well studied on the state of affairs in Afghanistan. My question as follows:
I’m happy the US left the country for the sake of not wanting the US to meddle in other peoples countries. However, I am extremely sad to see the country slipping away rapidly. I am less curious about what America could do going forward, and more curious what other countries around the world (besides Russia and China) are going to do or at least what are they thinking. Is everyone just waiting for America to react and handle it, or is anyone else wanting to try and take on this problem? Or do a lot of countries think let them solve their problems and leave it alone?
Most everyone that has to deal with it (i.e. anyone who has a direct or proximate border with Afghanistan) is planning for a future where the Taliban is in control. That includes Russia and China, but also other significant countries in the region like Iran and Pakistan. This article seems like a pretty good summary of where everyone stands.
Countries further away from the Afghani border have the luxury of not really having to worry about it, of course.
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On August 15 2021 00:10 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2021 20:12 Gahlo wrote:On August 14 2021 12:01 Mohdoo wrote:On August 14 2021 11:50 Acrofales wrote:On August 14 2021 11:22 Mohdoo wrote:
The satisfaction I feel seeing people saddened by the state of Afghanistan brings me true joy. It is another reminder that letting the average idiot on the street offer their opinion on foreign policy is a disaster. There was enormous public pressure (which shouldn't exist) for the military to basically totally shit the bed. Eventually the military was forced to shit the bed. Now people are wondering why the country we kept afloat is sinking once we left.
Here's what we should all remember: People with very specialized careers should make these decisions. Not Cletus. Except that Cletus served a tour there, Cletus' brother is still there and they both lost a few friends there. So Cletus most definitely has an opinion on whether the military should still be there... People with specialized careers made the decision to go in (Rumsfeld and his buddies). That decision was hasty and had no plan beyond regime change and then hunt Al Qaeda (and not doing that very well, because turns out a mountainous desert is a fucking awful place to try to find guerilla fighters who have local support). It comes as no surprise that Cletus now doesn't trust further specialized career people and wants his brother to come home from the forever war... So long as Cletus decides it is ethical to enlist in a military, I have a hard time feeling pity when it doesn’t go well. I mourn their deaths but an easy solution is not to participate. If cletus has a big emotional impact from the war, perhaps one of the worst possible people to ask. It’s like asking Malheur folks how to manage land. Proximity doesn’t make expertise Maybe Cletus just wanted to go to college without having to saddle himself with 25+ years of student debt. Or maybe he needed healthcare. Tons of people that are in the military are there as a means to an end. And he chose to pick up a gun and point it at people to make that money: I can’t pretend there aren’t ethical considerations there.
Or he choses to put his life at risk so that YOU can live safely.
I’m very skeptical about the mindless reverence towards the military. I don’t really like the military myself. But geez, do you guys have that thing called « nuance » in your thought process or is it just about making cool, provocative statements?
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On August 14 2021 13:50 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2021 12:03 Mohdoo wrote:On August 14 2021 11:55 BisuDagger wrote:On August 14 2021 11:22 Mohdoo wrote:
The satisfaction I feel seeing people saddened by the state of Afghanistan brings me true joy. It is another reminder that letting the average idiot on the street offer their opinion on foreign policy is a disaster. There was enormous public pressure (which shouldn't exist) for the military to basically totally shit the bed. Eventually the military was forced to shit the bed. Now people are wondering why the country we kept afloat is sinking once we left.
Here's what we should all remember: People with very specialized careers should make these decisions. Not Cletus. My sorrow comes from seeing more war and bloodshed. I don’t attempt to pick sides or who is right and wrong. I don’t take joy in war and hope that you understand where I’m coming from when I say I am sad. You aren’t who I am referring to though I can see from my post being under yours I can understand. I’m talking about people who just say “no war xD” as if it’s just that simple. Once we got into this mess it was clearly totally mandatory we stay essentially forever. If China or Russia move in, no one benefitted from the US leaving Are you sure China and or Russia are worse than the Taliban. The majority of Afganastans people did not benifit from the US leaving, especially the women. American soldiers and their families are the people who benifited the most.
They are worse than the Taliban for the people of Afghanistan. Afghanistan lacks the power to fully isolate themselves from the big 3. No matter what, Afghanistan will always be under the foot of one of the big 3. Its just a matter of how it all works out. Afghanistan is very valuable for a lot of reasons. The big 3 have no incentive to just let it exist without extracting value from it.
As I have said many times, no weak country will ever be free. A government which can't provide freedom for its citizens will be dominated by a government that can.
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On August 15 2021 00:50 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2021 13:50 JimmiC wrote:On August 14 2021 12:03 Mohdoo wrote:On August 14 2021 11:55 BisuDagger wrote:On August 14 2021 11:22 Mohdoo wrote:
The satisfaction I feel seeing people saddened by the state of Afghanistan brings me true joy. It is another reminder that letting the average idiot on the street offer their opinion on foreign policy is a disaster. There was enormous public pressure (which shouldn't exist) for the military to basically totally shit the bed. Eventually the military was forced to shit the bed. Now people are wondering why the country we kept afloat is sinking once we left.
Here's what we should all remember: People with very specialized careers should make these decisions. Not Cletus. My sorrow comes from seeing more war and bloodshed. I don’t attempt to pick sides or who is right and wrong. I don’t take joy in war and hope that you understand where I’m coming from when I say I am sad. You aren’t who I am referring to though I can see from my post being under yours I can understand. I’m talking about people who just say “no war xD” as if it’s just that simple. Once we got into this mess it was clearly totally mandatory we stay essentially forever. If China or Russia move in, no one benefitted from the US leaving Are you sure China and or Russia are worse than the Taliban. The majority of Afganastans people did not benifit from the US leaving, especially the women. American soldiers and their families are the people who benifited the most. They are worse than the Taliban for the people of Afghanistan. Afghanistan lacks the power to fully isolate themselves from the big 3. No matter what, Afghanistan will always be under the foot of one of the big 3. Its just a matter of how it all works out. Afghanistan is very valuable for a lot of reasons. The big 3 have no incentive to just let it exist without extracting value from it. As I have said many times, no weak country will ever be free. A government which can't provide freedom for its citizens will be dominated by a government that can.
Dobyou know anyone at all from Afghanistan / who actually knows his shit when it comes to Afghanistan?
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On August 15 2021 00:58 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2021 00:50 Mohdoo wrote:On August 14 2021 13:50 JimmiC wrote:On August 14 2021 12:03 Mohdoo wrote:On August 14 2021 11:55 BisuDagger wrote:On August 14 2021 11:22 Mohdoo wrote:
The satisfaction I feel seeing people saddened by the state of Afghanistan brings me true joy. It is another reminder that letting the average idiot on the street offer their opinion on foreign policy is a disaster. There was enormous public pressure (which shouldn't exist) for the military to basically totally shit the bed. Eventually the military was forced to shit the bed. Now people are wondering why the country we kept afloat is sinking once we left.
Here's what we should all remember: People with very specialized careers should make these decisions. Not Cletus. My sorrow comes from seeing more war and bloodshed. I don’t attempt to pick sides or who is right and wrong. I don’t take joy in war and hope that you understand where I’m coming from when I say I am sad. You aren’t who I am referring to though I can see from my post being under yours I can understand. I’m talking about people who just say “no war xD” as if it’s just that simple. Once we got into this mess it was clearly totally mandatory we stay essentially forever. If China or Russia move in, no one benefitted from the US leaving Are you sure China and or Russia are worse than the Taliban. The majority of Afganastans people did not benifit from the US leaving, especially the women. American soldiers and their families are the people who benifited the most. They are worse than the Taliban for the people of Afghanistan. Afghanistan lacks the power to fully isolate themselves from the big 3. No matter what, Afghanistan will always be under the foot of one of the big 3. Its just a matter of how it all works out. Afghanistan is very valuable for a lot of reasons. The big 3 have no incentive to just let it exist without extracting value from it. As I have said many times, no weak country will ever be free. A government which can't provide freedom for its citizens will be dominated by a government that can. Dobyou know anyone at all from Afghanistan / who actually knows his shit when it comes to Afghanistan?
I know a lot of people who will type long replies and link wiki articles to give the illusion. But no.
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On August 15 2021 00:59 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2021 00:58 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 15 2021 00:50 Mohdoo wrote:On August 14 2021 13:50 JimmiC wrote:On August 14 2021 12:03 Mohdoo wrote:On August 14 2021 11:55 BisuDagger wrote:On August 14 2021 11:22 Mohdoo wrote:
The satisfaction I feel seeing people saddened by the state of Afghanistan brings me true joy. It is another reminder that letting the average idiot on the street offer their opinion on foreign policy is a disaster. There was enormous public pressure (which shouldn't exist) for the military to basically totally shit the bed. Eventually the military was forced to shit the bed. Now people are wondering why the country we kept afloat is sinking once we left.
Here's what we should all remember: People with very specialized careers should make these decisions. Not Cletus. My sorrow comes from seeing more war and bloodshed. I don’t attempt to pick sides or who is right and wrong. I don’t take joy in war and hope that you understand where I’m coming from when I say I am sad. You aren’t who I am referring to though I can see from my post being under yours I can understand. I’m talking about people who just say “no war xD” as if it’s just that simple. Once we got into this mess it was clearly totally mandatory we stay essentially forever. If China or Russia move in, no one benefitted from the US leaving Are you sure China and or Russia are worse than the Taliban. The majority of Afganastans people did not benifit from the US leaving, especially the women. American soldiers and their families are the people who benifited the most. They are worse than the Taliban for the people of Afghanistan. Afghanistan lacks the power to fully isolate themselves from the big 3. No matter what, Afghanistan will always be under the foot of one of the big 3. Its just a matter of how it all works out. Afghanistan is very valuable for a lot of reasons. The big 3 have no incentive to just let it exist without extracting value from it. As I have said many times, no weak country will ever be free. A government which can't provide freedom for its citizens will be dominated by a government that can. Dobyou know anyone at all from Afghanistan / who actually knows his shit when it comes to Afghanistan? I know a lot of people who will type long replies and link wiki articles to give the illusion. But no.
My last relationship was with someone whose job was to decide if asylum seekers specifically from Afghanistan could stay or were to be sent home.
What she was saying about the country didn’t even start to resemble the situation you describe.
The fact you describe a country that has few natural ressources, zero infrastructure, is landlocked and made of deserted mountains, has no significant industry, and is an ultratraditional, clanic society as « very valuable » is an alarm bell to me.
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Speaking from only a resources angle, Afghanistan’s geological characteristics and relative lack of development make it one of the best bets for untapped resources in the entire world, especially in mining and oil. China absolutely has that sort of thing in mind as it looks to capitalize on the influence vacuum.
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On August 15 2021 01:16 farvacola wrote:
Speaking from only a resources angle, Afghanistan’s geological characteristics and relative lack of development make it one of the best bets for untapped resources in the entire world, especially in mining and oil. China absolutely has that sort of thing in mind as it looks to capitalize on the influence vacuum.
Good luck to them. Projecting any mining in Afghanistan is gonna be playing the long, long game with the Talibans back in power.
My point really is that Afghanistan recent history is not that of a place that rival big powers are contesting to each other for its ressources. It’s much, much more complex than that.
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EPT
