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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7985 Posts
On August 13 2021 22:20 Jockmcplop wrote: What was the initial strategy anyway? To end terrorism? To get rid of a permanent terrorism hub, evict a totalitarian theocracy that made Germany 1938 look like reasonable, good people and help a very powerful insurgency to gain power and install a relatively democratic government - or at least a stable, not bat shit crazy state. Frankly, it was not that bad a program. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9771 Posts
On August 14 2021 02:41 Biff The Understudy wrote: To get rid of a permanent terrorism hub, evict a totalitarian theocracy that made Germany 1938 look like reasonable, good people and help a very powerful insurgency to gain power and install a relatively democratic government - or at least a stable, not bat shit crazy state. Frankly, it was not that bad a program. Honestly that sounds like a ridiculously bad program once you take into account that there has to be enough detailed knowledge of Afghanistan beyond 'terrorists bad' to actually be able to achieve any of it. In fact, unless you think either a) It's possible to get rid of extreme/fundamentalist Islam from Afghanistan or b) The US will stay there permanently then what is happening now is inevitable. The Taliban isn't a small elite ruling over the people, you can't fix it with regime change. It was a typical American strategy. Go over there, kick some ass and show their military might. The rest will take care of itself. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22103 Posts
On August 14 2021 02:33 Starlightsun wrote: Back in the Cold War the US (along with Saudi-Arabia and Pakistan) covertly aided rebel afghans (the Mujahideen) in their fight against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.Can you explain about 9/11? I'm embarrassed to realize that I don't know what led up to it besides Osama Bin Laden ordered an attack. One such rebel was Osama Bin Laden. Supposedly, tho this is contested, he might even have been trained by the CIA at the time. After the Sovjet withdraw from Afghanistan and the USSR's later collapse the US abandoned support for the Mujahideen, they had been a proxy to fight the sovjets and the Cold War was now over, and this created resentment against America. They had fought and died for years and were now discarded. The Mujahideen would eventually reform into what would now be considered the Taliban. Bin Laden further radicalized, formed Al-Qaeda and would eventually launch terrorist attacks against America. Al'Qaeda, the Taliban and a lot of later conflict in that region can all be traced to the proxy war the US and USSR waged there during the Cold War. | ||
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farvacola
United States18854 Posts
On August 14 2021 03:03 Gorsameth wrote: Back in the Cold War the US (along with Saudi-Arabia and Pakistan) covertly aided rebel afghans (the Mujahideen) in their fight against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. One such rebel was Osama Bin Laden. After the Sovjet withdraw from Afghanistan and the USSR's later collapse the US abandoned support for the Mujahideen, they had been a proxy to fight the sovjets and the Cold War was now over, and this created resentment against America. They had fought and died for years and were now discarded. The Mujahideen would eventually reform into what would now be considered the Taliban. Bin Laden further radicalized, formed Al-Qaeda and would eventually launch terrorist attacks against America. Al'Qaeda, the Taliban and a lot of later conflict in that region can all be traced to the proxy war the US and USSR waged there during the Cold War. A nice and succinct summary, I would only add that Pakistan was itself a primary US proxy in the region and that the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan has shown itself to be one of the most difficult to control regions in the entire world. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
On August 14 2021 03:03 Gorsameth wrote: Back in the Cold War the US (along with Saudi-Arabia and Pakistan) covertly aided rebel afghans (the Mujahideen) in their fight against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. One such rebel was Osama Bin Laden. Supposedly, tho this is contested, he might even have been trained by the CIA at the time. After the Sovjet withdraw from Afghanistan and the USSR's later collapse the US abandoned support for the Mujahideen, they had been a proxy to fight the sovjets and the Cold War was now over, and this created resentment against America. They had fought and died for years and were now discarded. The Mujahideen would eventually reform into what would now be considered the Taliban. Bin Laden further radicalized, formed Al-Qaeda and would eventually launch terrorist attacks against America. Al'Qaeda, the Taliban and a lot of later conflict in that region can all be traced to the proxy war the US and USSR waged there during the Cold War. Thank you. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11752 Posts
On August 14 2021 03:21 JimmiC wrote: They are not that supported by the masses and their support was continually falling. It is very much a small powerful group controlling the masses. https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/taliban-afghanistan I do agree it was not a well thought out plan, and the world did not take into account that it meant being involved for maybe forever. But the Taliban are pretty fucking awful and the people, especially women are going to suffer immeasurably by them returning to power. The Americans are not the "good guys" but the Taliban is most certainly the "bad guys". The main problem is that there are a lot of "bad guys", and the american strategy has failed spectacularly both at getting rid of the bad guys, and at actually improving the region. There are a lot of deaths (many of which who don't fit into the category of "bad guys") which you can directly attribute to the US invasions of afghanistan and iraq. Which means a lot of people who are now angry at the US because their actions directly lead to their loved ones dying. And some of them radicalize and end up in the category of "bad guys". I would say that the middle east is considerably worse off now compared to if the US hadn't fucked up everything. Yes, the taliban are bad. Saddam was bad. But they are nothing compared to the unending misery that the ill-advised US attempt at improving that region through a military invasion has lead to. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28747 Posts
Considering how brutal this war was for the Afghan people (not just the fault of the US - the Soviet Union did stuff like manufacture explosive dolls to specifically target children), I can't really blame Afghans, who learned that the US intentionally prolonged the war to make it more costly for the Soviet Union, for absolutely detesting the US. The way the US won the cold war was through some absolutely abhorrent tactics, on multiple continents. I'm not claiming the Soviet Union was less abhorrent - but either way, those tactics built up a whole lot of very real and very warranted resentment towards the US. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19307 Posts
I’m happy the US left the country for the sake of not wanting the US to meddle in other peoples countries. However, I am extremely sad to see the country slipping away rapidly. I am less curious about what America could do going forward, and more curious what other countries around the world (besides Russia and China) are going to do or at least what are they thinking. Is everyone just waiting for America to react and handle it, or is anyone else wanting to try and take on this problem? Or do a lot of countries think let them solve their problems and leave it alone? | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15737 Posts
Here's what we should all remember: People with very specialized careers should make these decisions. Not Cletus. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18220 Posts
On August 14 2021 11:22 Mohdoo wrote: The satisfaction I feel seeing people saddened by the state of Afghanistan brings me true joy. It is another reminder that letting the average idiot on the street offer their opinion on foreign policy is a disaster. There was enormous public pressure (which shouldn't exist) for the military to basically totally shit the bed. Eventually the military was forced to shit the bed. Now people are wondering why the country we kept afloat is sinking once we left. Here's what we should all remember: People with very specialized careers should make these decisions. Not Cletus. Except that Cletus served a tour there, Cletus' brother is still there and they both lost a few friends there. So Cletus most definitely has an opinion on whether the military should still be there... People with specialized careers made the decision to go in (Rumsfeld and his buddies). That decision was hasty and had no plan beyond regime change and then hunt Al Qaeda (and not doing that very well, because turns out a mountainous desert is a fucking awful place to try to find guerilla fighters who have local support). It comes as no surprise that Cletus now doesn't trust further specialized career people and wants his brother to come home from the forever war... | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19307 Posts
On August 14 2021 11:22 Mohdoo wrote: The satisfaction I feel seeing people saddened by the state of Afghanistan brings me true joy. It is another reminder that letting the average idiot on the street offer their opinion on foreign policy is a disaster. There was enormous public pressure (which shouldn't exist) for the military to basically totally shit the bed. Eventually the military was forced to shit the bed. Now people are wondering why the country we kept afloat is sinking once we left. Here's what we should all remember: People with very specialized careers should make these decisions. Not Cletus. My sorrow comes from seeing more war and bloodshed. I don’t attempt to pick sides or who is right and wrong. I don’t take joy in war and hope that you understand where I’m coming from when I say I am sad. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15737 Posts
On August 14 2021 11:50 Acrofales wrote: Except that Cletus served a tour there, Cletus' brother is still there and they both lost a few friends there. So Cletus most definitely has an opinion on whether the military should still be there... People with specialized careers made the decision to go in (Rumsfeld and his buddies). That decision was hasty and had no plan beyond regime change and then hunt Al Qaeda (and not doing that very well, because turns out a mountainous desert is a fucking awful place to try to find guerilla fighters who have local support). It comes as no surprise that Cletus now doesn't trust further specialized career people and wants his brother to come home from the forever war... So long as Cletus decides it is ethical to enlist in a military, I have a hard time feeling pity when it doesn’t go well. I mourn their deaths but an easy solution is not to participate. If cletus has a big emotional impact from the war, perhaps one of the worst possible people to ask. It’s like asking Malheur folks how to manage land. Proximity doesn’t make expertise | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15737 Posts
On August 14 2021 11:55 BisuDagger wrote: My sorrow comes from seeing more war and bloodshed. I don’t attempt to pick sides or who is right and wrong. I don’t take joy in war and hope that you understand where I’m coming from when I say I am sad. You aren’t who I am referring to though I can see from my post being under yours I can understand. I’m talking about people who just say “no war xD” as if it’s just that simple. Once we got into this mess it was clearly totally mandatory we stay essentially forever. If China or Russia move in, no one benefitted from the US leaving | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On August 14 2021 11:50 Acrofales wrote: Except that Cletus served a tour there, Cletus' brother is still there and they both lost a few friends there. So Cletus most definitely has an opinion on whether the military should still be there... People with specialized careers made the decision to go in (Rumsfeld and his buddies). That decision was hasty and had no plan beyond regime change and then hunt Al Qaeda (and not doing that very well, because turns out a mountainous desert is a fucking awful place to try to find guerilla fighters who have local support). It comes as no surprise that Cletus now doesn't trust further specialized career people and wants his brother to come home from the forever war... This is true of a lot of the federal government. Many are captured institutions that either serve the interests of lobbyists, or of the permanent staff. Which is worse is often hard to tell. It wasn't Cletus that thought we could turn a West-Asian and Middle Eastern country into shining democracies on a hill. The failure of "specialized" people is on full display here and mohdoo is blaming the plebes? | ||
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Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15737 Posts
On August 14 2021 12:51 Starlightsun wrote: Well the Cletuses did put Dubya into office for two turns, called the most loudly for blood after 9/11, and were very eager to brand anyone who was against going to war as unpatriotic. Yes, Rumsfeld, Cheney and co bear the ultimate blame, but the people who put them in power also share some of it. Public support for the Iraq war was gigantic. The problem isn't Rumsfeld, the problem is a political system that asks citizens what the military ought to do. A truly hilarious tragedy. Imagine if people voted for what sorts of medical procedures were "good" vs "bad". What if people got to vote on what new age transistor technologies Intel pursues. If you would have asked people to vote on the next semiconductor material, they would have voted for graphene. Why? Not because of disinformation. Because most people are fucking morons who have no right to even participate in discussions of expertise. The entire system is infuriating. So many loud voices. And for what? Some romantic idea of representation that never existed to begin with? The whole thing is a sham. And just to be clear, I am not picking on the ignorant. I am pointing out that they make the world a worse place because we feel the need to interview them. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
On August 14 2021 13:09 Mohdoo wrote: Public support for the Iraq war was gigantic. The problem isn't Rumsfeld, the problem is a political system that asks citizens what the military ought to do. A truly hilarious tragedy. Imagine if people voted for what sorts of medical procedures were "good" vs "bad". What if people got to vote on what new age transistor technologies Intel pursues. If you would have asked people to vote on the next semiconductor material, they would have voted for graphene. Why? Not because of disinformation. Because most people are fucking morons who have no right to even participate in discussions of expertise. The entire system is infuriating. So many loud voices. And for what? Some romantic idea of representation that never existed to begin with? The whole thing is a sham. And just to be clear, I am not picking on the ignorant. I am pointing out that they make the world a worse place because we feel the need to interview them. Do you mean that the generals and the president are too beholden to the will of the people? It seems to me that they execute their plans with very little civilian input. I agree with your sentiments regarding things like science or education, but for the military I would be afraid if experts of war were to forget that they are supposed to serve, not rule their country. | ||
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