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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

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Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7917 Posts
April 27 2021 15:40 GMT
#63901
Yeah.

Now, if Trump didn’t manage to repel the ACA, chances are that some major achievements of Biden might hold next R presidency. Also if he carries on delivering, Biden will probably have very, very good chances at reelection.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
April 27 2021 15:41 GMT
#63902
--- Nuked ---
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-04-27 15:45:41
April 27 2021 15:43 GMT
#63903
On April 27 2021 16:54 Salazarz wrote:
Show nested quote +
I’m always amazed at you guys ranting about the US all day but being kind of ok with Russia and China. If you are revolted by what happens in the US - and god knows there is lots to be revolted about - you should be absolutely bat shit mad at what’s happening in Russia.

The fact you are completely unable to recognize the value of, say, a free press, separation of powers, free elections, the state of law and so on, however imperfect and imperfectly they are applied, make the whole of your discourse feel unnuanced, disconnected and ultimately very uninteresting. But that’s just my opinion. You keep doing you I guess.


Those are all wonderful buzzwords, but how does it translate to real life? China has gone from being one smoldering ruin in mid 20th century to what pretty much amounts to a developed super power at this point, with their quality of life improving rapidly across the country year on year. People are simply living better there than they have 10 or 50 years ago, and it's foolish to discard that under the usual 'but authoritarian! but no free speech!' nonsense. Trust me, if you've got no money for food, free press is the least of your worries -- I've been there, I know how it feels. Meanwhile in the US, the only things that's grown in the same time frame are income inequality and debt. Oh, and military spending, I guess.

Russia isn't as cut and dry, but it's not as if free press would suddenly solve their issues, either; and what is 'free press', anyway? Most of the media (certainly mainstream media) in the west is extremely biased and largely driven by feelings and narratives rather than facts, anyway. I'd argue that this pretense of independence and truthfulness is just as insidious and harmful as full on propaganda of China is. I mean, if 'respected' news outlets push the bullshit about 'forced sterilization in Xinjiang' or 'Chinese debt traps in Africa' as if those are real things, what's the use of this 'free' media at all?

If you are genuinely interested in having honest and nuanced discourse, I don't think you can default to the 'Authoritarian China / Russia bad, free and liberal west good' since it's a lot more complicated than that.

Good post - and the fact that the response you got is some silly reductionist comparison to Hitler is pretty telling. Life in the US is generally better than in countries like Russia and China (certainly if you're well off financially), but the trend is pretty noticeable as well.

The matter of free speech / free press is certainly an interesting one. You have free speech - but woe be you if your free speech is contorted into being seen as "hate speech" and therefore no longer free. Or if you piss off a wealthy individual or group and get fucked over by some contortion of patent/defamation law (with good expensive lawyers, the law is always on your side). And the "free press" is owned by corporations that are far more likely to post lowest-common-denominator garbage than your average state-controlled media, let alone the government propaganda that all these media organizations have admitted to receiving and passing on to their viewership. Frankly as far as the press goes, state news agencies like Xinhua and TASS are better sources of news than 90% of what you'll find in the "free press" of the US.

But I digress - there's not much point in having the discussion of what things are and aren't better when there isn't much interest in honest and nuanced discourse. Might as well just take the lyrics of "God Bless the USA" to heart; it'd at least be more honest than playing the "I don't like the way things are in the US, but Russia and China are terrible and evil dictatorships" card. Usually the latter is just a refrain to justify notional progressivism but practical apathy when it comes to the very real problems that exist at home.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10808 Posts
April 27 2021 15:45 GMT
#63904
On April 28 2021 00:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Yeah.

Now, if Trump didn’t manage to repel the ACA, chances are that some major achievements of Biden might hold next R presidency. Also if he carries on delivering, Biden will probably have very, very good chances at reelection.


I'm subscried to r/conservative on reddit... and oh boy... I hope that sub is really just a bubble of the most vile people or we are in for a rough awakening in 3 years. Especially if Biden would have to step down and Harris would be the D nominé.

Can't recommend that sub enough btw.... It's really just so vile and absolutely non reflective. I'm told thedonald and stuff was worse, I just can't really imagine how.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-04-27 15:48:01
April 27 2021 15:47 GMT
#63905
Perhaps we'll instead get a situation where some of Trump's crowning achievements - like, say, the corporate tax cuts - persist throughout the Democratic presidencies! Just like Trump couldn't really kill ACA despite its flaws and Obama legacy.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18838 Posts
April 27 2021 15:48 GMT
#63906
On April 28 2021 00:45 Velr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 28 2021 00:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Yeah.

Now, if Trump didn’t manage to repel the ACA, chances are that some major achievements of Biden might hold next R presidency. Also if he carries on delivering, Biden will probably have very, very good chances at reelection.


I'm subscried to r/conservative on reddit... and oh boy... I hope that sub is really just a bubble of the most vile people or we are in for a rough awakening in 3 years. Especially if Biden would have to step down and Harris would be the D nominé.

Can't recommend that sub enough btw.... It's really just so vile and absolutely non reflective. I'm told thedonald and stuff was worse, I just can't really imagine how.

How representative digital spaces like that truly are is a question of the constant push and pull of US politics. Biden has done well enough that I remain hopeful with respect to '22 and '24, but cynicism is certainly warranted at this point regardless.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
plasmidghost
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Belgium16168 Posts
April 27 2021 15:51 GMT
#63907
On April 28 2021 00:21 EnDeR_ wrote:
As a slight change of topic:

www.theguardian.com

Show nested quote +
Biden plans to beef up IRS to claim up to $700bn in tax from richest Americans.

Joe Biden plans to give tax collectors an extra $80bn to seek as much as $700bn in new revenue from high earners and large corporations, as part of the “American Families Plan” set to be unveiled this week.
The additional funding represents an increase of two-thirds over the agency’s entire funding levels for the past decade.


I'm genuinely surprised. Biden's presidency is exceeding all my expectations so far. I wonder if the next R president will undo this one; hard to argue against making sure everyone pays what they owe, but with the GOP in the state it is, you just never know.

I am very thankful for this. I hope Biden and Congress use these funds to invest in green infrastructure throughout the US
Yugoslavia will always live on in my heart
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
April 27 2021 16:31 GMT
#63908
--- Nuked ---
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23464 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-04-27 17:11:52
April 27 2021 16:39 GMT
#63909
On April 28 2021 00:10 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2021 22:39 GreenHorizons wrote:
On April 27 2021 21:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On April 27 2021 21:23 BlackJack wrote:
The fact that most police wear body cameras now is a huge change from 10 years ago. I don't know who said that reform has failed for 60 years but 60 years ago blacks were still being lynched

I mean if it’s about racial equality, 60 years ago Yale was not opened to black students and interracial marriage was forbidden in 30 states...

Worth remembering the Civil Rights Act of 1968 was signed during the massive nationwide riots immediately following the assassination of MLK Jr., not before.

Of course. That’s why protests like BLM are so important. They enable change that was impossible before them. And most importantly, they actually change people’s mind and ideas. Even when they encounter massive resistance or are even unpopular in the polls, they plant the seeds that make sctual progress and actual change possible.

It's important to recognize the difference between the protests like the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom and the following conflicts + Show Spoiler +
Harlem riot of 1964
1964 Rochester race riot
Dixmoor race riot, August, 1964
1964 Philadelphia race riot
Watts riots, August, 1965
1966 Chicago West Side riots
Hough riots, July, 1966
Waukegan riot of 1966
Hunters Point social uprising (1966)
Benton Harbor riots of 1966
en.wikipedia.org
leading up to "the Long, hot summer of 1967" (which is where the "When the looting starts, the shooting starts" came from) that preceded the massive national King-assassination riots in over 100 cities that resulted in at least dozens dead, thousands injured, and 10's of thousands of people arrested.

It's also of note that MLK Jr. got increasingly less popular in his final years, not more popular.

Expect peaceful marches/protests to increasingly turn into more massive uprisings and riots the longer the US goes before passing something at least as significant as a (demonstrably inadequate) Civil Rights Act (a moderate minimum which the George Floyd Policing Act fails to even come close to).
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Lmui
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada6215 Posts
April 27 2021 17:22 GMT
#63910
On April 28 2021 00:21 EnDeR_ wrote:
As a slight change of topic:

www.theguardian.com

Show nested quote +
Biden plans to beef up IRS to claim up to $700bn in tax from richest Americans.

Joe Biden plans to give tax collectors an extra $80bn to seek as much as $700bn in new revenue from high earners and large corporations, as part of the “American Families Plan” set to be unveiled this week.
The additional funding represents an increase of two-thirds over the agency’s entire funding levels for the past decade.


I'm genuinely surprised. Biden's presidency is exceeding all my expectations so far. I wonder if the next R president will undo this one; hard to argue against making sure everyone pays what they owe, but with the GOP in the state it is, you just never know.


To be completely honest, this is a big breath of fresh air.
I really think the amount of money you push to the IRS should be increased til until the ROI is less than 1.2 or so. 80B to collect 700B is an amazing return, even if it's 80B to get 350B, it's still amazing.

If the money allows them to acquire and retain talent, it's probably the most progressive way to ensure government revenue. If the IRS delivers, I wouldn't be surprised to see the IRS grow slightly more in the next year or two as well.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
April 27 2021 17:40 GMT
#63911
Would be nice to be able to reach a person on the IRS phone line in less than an hour.

They're usually very helpful after you get there, but the waiting time shows how clearly understaffed they are.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7917 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-04-27 18:31:24
April 27 2021 18:29 GMT
#63912
On April 28 2021 01:39 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 28 2021 00:10 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On April 27 2021 22:39 GreenHorizons wrote:
On April 27 2021 21:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On April 27 2021 21:23 BlackJack wrote:
The fact that most police wear body cameras now is a huge change from 10 years ago. I don't know who said that reform has failed for 60 years but 60 years ago blacks were still being lynched

I mean if it’s about racial equality, 60 years ago Yale was not opened to black students and interracial marriage was forbidden in 30 states...

Worth remembering the Civil Rights Act of 1968 was signed during the massive nationwide riots immediately following the assassination of MLK Jr., not before.

Of course. That’s why protests like BLM are so important. They enable change that was impossible before them. And most importantly, they actually change people’s mind and ideas. Even when they encounter massive resistance or are even unpopular in the polls, they plant the seeds that make sctual progress and actual change possible.

It's important to recognize the difference between the protests like the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom and the following conflicts + Show Spoiler +
Harlem riot of 1964
1964 Rochester race riot
Dixmoor race riot, August, 1964
1964 Philadelphia race riot
Watts riots, August, 1965
1966 Chicago West Side riots
Hough riots, July, 1966
Waukegan riot of 1966
Hunters Point social uprising (1966)
Benton Harbor riots of 1966
en.wikipedia.org
leading up to "the Long, hot summer of 1967" (which is where the "When the looting starts, the shooting starts" came from) that preceded the massive national King-assassination riots in over 100 cities that resulted in at least dozens dead, thousands injured, and 10's of thousands of people arrested.

It's also of note that MLK Jr. got increasingly less popular in his final years, not more popular.

Expect peaceful marches/protests to increasingly turn into more massive uprisings and riots the longer the US goes before passing something at least as significant as a (demonstrably inadequate) Civil Rights Act (a moderate minimum which the George Floyd Policing Act fails to even come close to).

I mean, the least violent the protests the better, but I think some level of violence is unavoidable. And it’s ok, imo. The 1960’s protest violence was at the measure of how god awful the injustice were. And people getting so, so, shocked at some windows getting broken during the BLM protests blatantly disregard the fact that what is at stake - dignity, equality and justice - trumps temporary disorder by orders of magnitude.

I am with you on the fact there won’t be civil peace until really serious action is taken. That being said, Biden has been very active on the front of racial justice, and if there is a moment it can happen it’s now.

Sometimes democracy needs riots. I think we are in such a time.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
plasmidghost
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Belgium16168 Posts
April 27 2021 19:09 GMT
#63913
Senator Joe Manchin has said in the past that he is opposed to the filibuster being changed in any way, but his voting record is almost always in line with Dems. Do y'all think that he would vote against any Dem proposal to change it?
Yugoslavia will always live on in my heart
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28706 Posts
April 27 2021 19:10 GMT
#63914
I thought he had issued support for the 'force people to actually speak'- filibuster?
Moderator
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-04-27 19:24:16
April 27 2021 19:23 GMT
#63915
On April 28 2021 04:09 plasmidghost wrote:
Senator Joe Manchin has said in the past that he is opposed to the filibuster being changed in any way, but his voting record is almost always in line with Dems. Do y'all think that he would vote against any Dem proposal to change it?

If he didn't usually vote with the Dems, he'd just be an unreliable member of the party that can't be counted on. He has power if he breaks rank only on specific key issues.

I don't think he'd break rank on the filibuster in particular; that sounds like a party line thing to vote for.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
StasisField
Profile Joined August 2013
United States1086 Posts
April 27 2021 20:03 GMT
#63916
On April 28 2021 04:10 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I thought he had issued support for the 'force people to actually speak'- filibuster?

I thought this was the case as well?
What do you mean Immortals can't shoot up?
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23464 Posts
April 27 2021 22:12 GMT
#63917
On April 28 2021 05:03 StasisField wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 28 2021 04:10 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I thought he had issued support for the 'force people to actually speak'- filibuster?

I thought this was the case as well?

He's not an honest man, so he's said both, but most recently that there's no circumstance where he will eliminate or weaken the filibuster:

Democratic Senator Joe Manchin, a pivotal vote in the evenly divided Senate, said on Wednesday he was opposed to a process called reconciliation

“The filibuster is a critical tool to protecting that input and our democratic form of government. That is why I have said it before and will say it again to remove any shred of doubt: There is no circumstance in which I will vote to eliminate or weaken the filibuster,” Manchin said.


www.reuters.com
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
plasmidghost
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Belgium16168 Posts
April 27 2021 22:14 GMT
#63918
On April 28 2021 07:12 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 28 2021 05:03 StasisField wrote:
On April 28 2021 04:10 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I thought he had issued support for the 'force people to actually speak'- filibuster?

I thought this was the case as well?

He's not an honest man, so he's said both, but most recently that there's no circumstance where he will eliminate or weaken the filibuster:

Show nested quote +
Democratic Senator Joe Manchin, a pivotal vote in the evenly divided Senate, said on Wednesday he was opposed to a process called reconciliation

“The filibuster is a critical tool to protecting that input and our democratic form of government. That is why I have said it before and will say it again to remove any shred of doubt: There is no circumstance in which I will vote to eliminate or weaken the filibuster,” Manchin said.


www.reuters.com

Thank you for the quote. Pretty disappointing of him but not really surprising
Yugoslavia will always live on in my heart
plasmidghost
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Belgium16168 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-04-27 22:19:12
April 27 2021 22:16 GMT
#63919
Meanwhile here, the Texas Senate has passed a bill that would do many things like revoke the medical licenses of any doctor that treats trans kids and forcefully take trans children from their homes if their families supports them and place them in our horrendous foster system. It may not clear the House, but we have until the end of May to wait and see since that's when the legislature ends until 2023.

I cannot emphasize enough that these kids are going to be traumatized and die.

www.texastribune.org/2021/04/27/texas-senate-transgender-child-abuse/
Yugoslavia will always live on in my heart
EnDeR_
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
Spain2774 Posts
April 27 2021 22:39 GMT
#63920
On April 27 2021 21:01 BlackJack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2021 20:40 EnDeR_ wrote:
On April 27 2021 20:22 BlackJack wrote:
From the article

We estimate an overall mortality rate of about 1.8 per 100,000 for men between the ages of 25 y and 29 y.



From the data you posted a few pages back on fatal police shootings of 2015 we found that only 9.4% were unarmed. Compared to 90% that were shooting at police, pointing/brandishing a gun at police, attacking police with other weapons, attack police with knives, etc. Even though that 9.4% can also include people that were attacking police with their bare hands (a large man vs a lady cop could easily killer her with their bare hands) let's just assume that all 9.4% of those were unjustified

9.4% of 1.8 per 100,000 = 0.17 per 100,000. Or 1.7 per million. I imagine you're just trying to play devil's advocate for the argument "5% chance of being shot for being black during a traffic stop" but you're literally providing me evidence that I'm right when I say the odds are closer to 1 in 1,000,000. If you only look at the people that were complying with police and doing nothing wrong it's probably way more rare than that even.

Also the same article you posted shows that the mortality rate for homicide is 20 per 100,000 which is 10 to 20 times higher than the 1.8 per 100,000 of being killed by police. It's basically a fact that a black kid in America is WAY more likely to be shot by another black kid in America than by police. But the black politician and celebrity mothers never seem to worry about that. Strange.


You've misread that. 1.8 for 100,000 for men, that includes white men. You glossed over the first paragraph which clearly states:

Over the life course, about 1 in every 1,000 black men can expect to be killed by police
.

And, here's the relevant paragraph:

Between the ages of 25 y and 29 y, black men are killed by police at a rate between 2.8 and 4.1 per 100,000, American Indian and Alaska Native men are killed at a rate between 1.5 and 2.8 per 100,000, Asian/Pacific Islander men are killed by police at a rate between 0.3 and 0.6 per 100,000, Latino men at a rate between 1.4 and 2.2 per 100,000, and white men at a rate between 0.9 and 1.4 per 100,000. Inequalities in risk persist throughout the life course.


The question isn't 'is it more likely to be killed by another person than by the police?'. The question is: is the risk of getting killed by the police acceptable? I would argue that it isn't, regardless of ethnicity.


Even doubling that rate doesn't help your case. 1 in a million chance of dying is 0.0001%. Not much difference between 0.0001% and 0.0002%. Also my point is that it's illogical for black mothers, especially wealthy ones, to fear that their child is going to be killed by police. Maybe you are okay with the media manipulating people into irrational fears but I am not. History has shown many negative things can happen if you allow that.


The math doesn't check out. In addition, the important number is how likely are you to die at the hands of police. Not, how likely are you to die at the hands of police on a given year. The odds for black men are particularly poor at 1 in a 1,000 (so 0.1%). Even for white folks, the odds are unacceptable at 0.04% ish.

With regards to threat perception, it is also illogical to carry a gun for personal protection, but most Americans are okay with that. People are not rational actors, and we are particularly irrational when it comes to assessing the threat levels our children are exposed to. Maybe Im just being nitpicky, but I don't understand why you are singling black mothers here (and affluent black Americans in your previous post). I mean, black parents already have to have 'the talk' with their children. It's pretty messed up any way you look at this and I don't think their struggle should be minimised.
estás más desubicao q un croissant en un plato de nécoras
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