|
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
Norway28866 Posts
I'm generally very forgiving of guys who make these types of transgressions, as long as a) a no is respected and b) there's not too much repeat history and c) there's no boss-employee relationship.
Like, if a guy thinks a girl has been flirting with him and tries to kiss a girl and she says no and then the guy is like oh sorry and doesn't try again, then I'm not gonna think less of him for having misinterpreted her signals. Or if a guy is sitting next to a girl and they're talking together and he notices that she doesn't move her leg when they accidentally brush legs and he interprets that as 'she's comfortable with physical contact' and proceeds putting his hand on her back. That's fine too, even if it results in her removing his hand. And then if he's pretty drunk that evening and he then five minutes later does the same thing again, meh, not gonna judge that, either, although it's not ideal behavior.
But if you're 50 years old and there are a lot of stories about this happening, then you should have learned something like 25 years ago that you should control your drinking. If you try to kiss someone and they're like the fuck you doing and then you try again, then that's not ok either. And if you're the boss of someone, you shouldn't be doing any of this, period. I honestly haven't been looking too much into exactly what Cuomo is being accused of here, but from a cursory glance there seems to be a pattern - and that is genuinely problematic.
|
On March 02 2021 21:15 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2021 21:07 BisuDagger wrote:On March 02 2021 20:42 farvacola wrote:
You don't get to speak on behalf of "almost any man" and the notion that men who have a few drinks are bound to uncomfortably touch women and try to kiss them is shameful nonsense. Also, women can talk about bad things that happened to them without putting a lawyer on retainer or keeping the complaint in house, for Christ's sake. You can have the same generic response if you want to instead of discussing my view point without getting angry. I don’t think less of women then you do. It’s very very hard to discuss an opinion in this particular thread that is anything other then, let’s attack the accused male and take away his job. I hate that I have to redundantly say we should take the women seriously several times, but also offer up something different to discuss. I am fine removing what I posted if the next page of replies is going to be like yours. My post doesn't say what you claim it does, and the accusations against Cuomo can be addressed without resorting to awful excuses for bad behavior and broad generalizations about what men are like. Show nested quote +On March 02 2021 21:09 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 02 2021 20:42 farvacola wrote:
You don't get to speak on behalf of "almost any man" and the notion that men who have a few drinks are bound to uncomfortably touch women and try to kiss them is shameful nonsense. Also, women can talk about bad things that happened to them without putting a lawyer on retainer or keeping the complaint in house, for Christ's sake. I don't know. I don't like Cuomo, but I also find that completely out of proportions. I am not overly interested, so I didn't go to the bottom of all the details, so I might of course miss something. I personally am on the very considerate and extremely careful side with women, but ruining a guy's career because he made "creepy" comments or tried to kiss a woman is just more displaced puritanism imo. If it is nothing that a "no thanks, not interested" wouldn't stop, I just don't see how it's anyone business. And I mean, every couple or every story started with someone making a move. It's just later that you can say "oh, that was creepy and inappropriate", because the other party wasn't interested. Of course if it carries on after the woman makes it clear that it's not gonna happen, it's something else. That's becoming harassment. Is it what Cuomo is being accused of? I am making no claims with respect to what Cuomo should face repercussion wise, I am simply pointing out that men should hold themselves to a higher standard and that generalized "men are belligerent creatures when they drink" notions belong in the dumpster.
This.
Ask yourself this, BisuDagger: Ist it OK for women to have to put up with inappropriate behaviour just because it wasn't technically harassment (yet)?
|
On March 02 2021 21:12 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2021 21:09 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 02 2021 20:42 farvacola wrote:
You don't get to speak on behalf of "almost any man" and the notion that men who have a few drinks are bound to uncomfortably touch women and try to kiss them is shameful nonsense. Also, women can talk about bad things that happened to them without putting a lawyer on retainer or keeping the complaint in house, for Christ's sake. I don't know. I don't like Cuomo, but I also find that completely out of proportions. I am not overly interested, so I didn't go to the bottom of all the details, so I might of course miss something. I personally am on the very considerate and extremely careful side with women, but ruining a guy's career because he made "creepy" comments or tried to kiss a woman is just more displaced puritanism imo. If it is nothing that a "no thanks, not interested" wouldn't stop, I just don't see how it's anyone business. And I mean, every couple or every story started with someone making a move. It's just later that you can say "oh, that was creepy and inappropriate", because the other party wasn't interested. Of course if it carries on after the woman makes it clear that it's not gonna happen, it's something else. That's becoming harassment. Is it what Cuomo is being accused of? I would imagine her removing his hand from her back was the time to stop and a clear signal she wasn't interested.
My problem is that I know a shitload of couples that got together because the guy just kept insisting. And I have heard many women saying that that meant to them they really cared.
I have a problem with the fact that it's beautiful and romantic when it works, but creepy and inappropriate when it doesn't.
Again, I am the kind of guy who totally abandons when I face rejection, but I see around me that it's not that simple. I get that sexual harassment is a huge problem that needs to be addressed, but a whole life being destroyed because a woman says "he made me feel uncomfortable" feels just terrible too imo.
|
On March 02 2021 21:12 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2021 21:09 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 02 2021 20:42 farvacola wrote:
You don't get to speak on behalf of "almost any man" and the notion that men who have a few drinks are bound to uncomfortably touch women and try to kiss them is shameful nonsense. Also, women can talk about bad things that happened to them without putting a lawyer on retainer or keeping the complaint in house, for Christ's sake. I don't know. I don't like Cuomo, but I also find that completely out of proportions. I am not overly interested, so I didn't go to the bottom of all the details, so I might of course miss something. I personally am on the very considerate and extremely careful side with women, but ruining a guy's career because he made "creepy" comments or tried to kiss a woman is just more displaced puritanism imo. If it is nothing that a "no thanks, not interested" wouldn't stop, I just don't see how it's anyone business. And I mean, every couple or every story started with someone making a move. It's just later that you can say "oh, that was creepy and inappropriate", because the other party wasn't interested. Of course if it carries on after the woman makes it clear that it's not gonna happen, it's something else. That's becoming harassment. Is it what Cuomo is being accused of? I would imagine her removing his hand from her back was the time to stop and a clear signal she wasn't interested.
Pretty much this.
The dude had been given a reasonably clear signal that the attention was not wanted. I think it reflects pretty poorly on the posters trying to defend the actions taken there after.
Being drunk is no excuse for harassing someone, and as Farv says, we definitely shouldn't be looking to give credence tp blanket excuses for this type of behavior. If you can't keep yourself from harassing women when you drink, don't fucking drink at events where that may cause an issue. It shouldn't be someone else's problem that you don't understand boundaries when you've had a few. Especially not when you're someone with a fair bit of power and status to make the dynamic even more uncomfortable.
All this said, in isolation this incident is not all that severe.
But as part of a pattern of behavior it's quite gross and not something anyone should be comfortable with in their representatives.
|
Norway28866 Posts
It is undeniable that one type of behavior can be appreciated from a guy that a girl is interested in and that the exact same type of behavior can make the same girl feel uncomfortable if the girl is not interested. This is why I can be fairly/entirely forgiving of guys who make mistakes, under the conditions I covered above.
It's also undeniably true that some guys are inconsiderate jerks who don't really seem to care much about degree their behavior is appreciated or not. Once stuff like this has happened too many times, 'makes mistakes' becomes 'is an inconsiderable jerk'. 
|
Bisutopia19368 Posts
On March 02 2021 21:57 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2021 21:15 farvacola wrote:On March 02 2021 21:07 BisuDagger wrote:On March 02 2021 20:42 farvacola wrote:
You don't get to speak on behalf of "almost any man" and the notion that men who have a few drinks are bound to uncomfortably touch women and try to kiss them is shameful nonsense. Also, women can talk about bad things that happened to them without putting a lawyer on retainer or keeping the complaint in house, for Christ's sake. You can have the same generic response if you want to instead of discussing my view point without getting angry. I don’t think less of women then you do. It’s very very hard to discuss an opinion in this particular thread that is anything other then, let’s attack the accused male and take away his job. I hate that I have to redundantly say we should take the women seriously several times, but also offer up something different to discuss. I am fine removing what I posted if the next page of replies is going to be like yours. My post doesn't say what you claim it does, and the accusations against Cuomo can be addressed without resorting to awful excuses for bad behavior and broad generalizations about what men are like. On March 02 2021 21:09 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 02 2021 20:42 farvacola wrote:
You don't get to speak on behalf of "almost any man" and the notion that men who have a few drinks are bound to uncomfortably touch women and try to kiss them is shameful nonsense. Also, women can talk about bad things that happened to them without putting a lawyer on retainer or keeping the complaint in house, for Christ's sake. I don't know. I don't like Cuomo, but I also find that completely out of proportions. I am not overly interested, so I didn't go to the bottom of all the details, so I might of course miss something. I personally am on the very considerate and extremely careful side with women, but ruining a guy's career because he made "creepy" comments or tried to kiss a woman is just more displaced puritanism imo. If it is nothing that a "no thanks, not interested" wouldn't stop, I just don't see how it's anyone business. And I mean, every couple or every story started with someone making a move. It's just later that you can say "oh, that was creepy and inappropriate", because the other party wasn't interested. Of course if it carries on after the woman makes it clear that it's not gonna happen, it's something else. That's becoming harassment. Is it what Cuomo is being accused of? I am making no claims with respect to what Cuomo should face repercussion wise, I am simply pointing out that men should hold themselves to a higher standard and that generalized "men are belligerent creatures when they drink" notions belong in the dumpster. This. Ask yourself this, BisuDagger: Ist it OK for women to have to put up with inappropriate behaviour just because it wasn't technically harassment (yet)?
I didn't say it was okay for them to put up with it. I especially have the woman's back who was a former employee. My problem is that no one is working with these women who speak out to understand what the resolution here should be. Is she (insert any of the accusing woman) speaking out because she just simply wants people to know how inappropriate he can be, because she feels like he shouldn't continue to be in his position of higher office because of his actions, she feels like people aren't responding sharply enough to his nursing home crisis, that she wants a public apology, that she believes he needs to seek help...
We are past the "do we believe her or not discussion" and "we are past the do we ignore her or not discussion" which is great. But no one is discussion what the heck we are supposed to do with this information. And without any of these women having that discussion with us, we leave it to the media to escalate it to the most extreme responses possible.
|
Bisutopia19368 Posts
On March 02 2021 22:05 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2021 21:12 Gorsameth wrote:On March 02 2021 21:09 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 02 2021 20:42 farvacola wrote:
You don't get to speak on behalf of "almost any man" and the notion that men who have a few drinks are bound to uncomfortably touch women and try to kiss them is shameful nonsense. Also, women can talk about bad things that happened to them without putting a lawyer on retainer or keeping the complaint in house, for Christ's sake. I don't know. I don't like Cuomo, but I also find that completely out of proportions. I am not overly interested, so I didn't go to the bottom of all the details, so I might of course miss something. I personally am on the very considerate and extremely careful side with women, but ruining a guy's career because he made "creepy" comments or tried to kiss a woman is just more displaced puritanism imo. If it is nothing that a "no thanks, not interested" wouldn't stop, I just don't see how it's anyone business. And I mean, every couple or every story started with someone making a move. It's just later that you can say "oh, that was creepy and inappropriate", because the other party wasn't interested. Of course if it carries on after the woman makes it clear that it's not gonna happen, it's something else. That's becoming harassment. Is it what Cuomo is being accused of? I would imagine her removing his hand from her back was the time to stop and a clear signal she wasn't interested. Pretty much this. The dude had been given a reasonably clear signal that the attention was not wanted. I think it reflects pretty poorly on the posters trying to defend the actions taken there after. Being drunk is no excuse for harassing someone, and as Farv says, we definitely shouldn't be looking to give credence tp blanket excuses for this type of behavior. If you can't keep yourself from harassing women when you drink, don't fucking drink at events where that may cause an issue. It shouldn't be someone else's problem that you don't understand boundaries when you've had a few. Especially not when you're someone with a fair bit of power and status to make the dynamic even more uncomfortable. All this said, in isolation this incident is not all that severe. But as part of a pattern of behavior it's quite gross and not something anyone should be comfortable with in their representatives.
I didn't saying being drunk is an excuse for harassing women. I said "Almost any man who has had a few drinks has taken things a little to far." That doesn't have to be with just women. When you get drunk, you act like an idiot whether it be with women or doing some dare no sober man would partake in. But we don't even know if he was drunk, so this I apologize for creating a tangent discussion from the main topic here.
|
On March 02 2021 22:10 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2021 21:57 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 02 2021 21:15 farvacola wrote:On March 02 2021 21:07 BisuDagger wrote:On March 02 2021 20:42 farvacola wrote:
You don't get to speak on behalf of "almost any man" and the notion that men who have a few drinks are bound to uncomfortably touch women and try to kiss them is shameful nonsense. Also, women can talk about bad things that happened to them without putting a lawyer on retainer or keeping the complaint in house, for Christ's sake. You can have the same generic response if you want to instead of discussing my view point without getting angry. I don’t think less of women then you do. It’s very very hard to discuss an opinion in this particular thread that is anything other then, let’s attack the accused male and take away his job. I hate that I have to redundantly say we should take the women seriously several times, but also offer up something different to discuss. I am fine removing what I posted if the next page of replies is going to be like yours. My post doesn't say what you claim it does, and the accusations against Cuomo can be addressed without resorting to awful excuses for bad behavior and broad generalizations about what men are like. On March 02 2021 21:09 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 02 2021 20:42 farvacola wrote:
You don't get to speak on behalf of "almost any man" and the notion that men who have a few drinks are bound to uncomfortably touch women and try to kiss them is shameful nonsense. Also, women can talk about bad things that happened to them without putting a lawyer on retainer or keeping the complaint in house, for Christ's sake. I don't know. I don't like Cuomo, but I also find that completely out of proportions. I am not overly interested, so I didn't go to the bottom of all the details, so I might of course miss something. I personally am on the very considerate and extremely careful side with women, but ruining a guy's career because he made "creepy" comments or tried to kiss a woman is just more displaced puritanism imo. If it is nothing that a "no thanks, not interested" wouldn't stop, I just don't see how it's anyone business. And I mean, every couple or every story started with someone making a move. It's just later that you can say "oh, that was creepy and inappropriate", because the other party wasn't interested. Of course if it carries on after the woman makes it clear that it's not gonna happen, it's something else. That's becoming harassment. Is it what Cuomo is being accused of? I am making no claims with respect to what Cuomo should face repercussion wise, I am simply pointing out that men should hold themselves to a higher standard and that generalized "men are belligerent creatures when they drink" notions belong in the dumpster. This. Ask yourself this, BisuDagger: Ist it OK for women to have to put up with inappropriate behaviour just because it wasn't technically harassment (yet)? I didn't say it was okay for them to put up with it. I especially have the woman's back who was a former employee. My problem is that no one is working with these women who speak out to understand what the resolution here should be. Is she (insert any of the accusing woman) speaking out because she just simply wants people to know how inappropriate he can be, because she feels like he shouldn't continue to be in his position of higher office because of his actions, she feels like people aren't responding sharply enough to his nursing home crisis, that she wants a public apology, that she believes he needs to seek help... We are past the "do we believe her or not discussion" and "we are past the do we ignore her or not discussion" which is great. But no one is discussion what the heck we are supposed to do with this information. And without any of these women having that discussion with us, we leave it to the media to escalate it to the most extreme responses possible.
I'm not really sure where you're going with this. If you know someone consistently abuses their power, they should be removed from said position of power. Do you agree?
|
Apparently Cuomo has displayed this behavior for years, according to a female senator who worked with him, (heard it yesterday on npr.) Never liked him or his brother, false bravado macho bs.
|
Bisutopia19368 Posts
On March 02 2021 22:37 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2021 22:10 BisuDagger wrote:On March 02 2021 21:57 EnDeR_ wrote:On March 02 2021 21:15 farvacola wrote:On March 02 2021 21:07 BisuDagger wrote:On March 02 2021 20:42 farvacola wrote:
You don't get to speak on behalf of "almost any man" and the notion that men who have a few drinks are bound to uncomfortably touch women and try to kiss them is shameful nonsense. Also, women can talk about bad things that happened to them without putting a lawyer on retainer or keeping the complaint in house, for Christ's sake. You can have the same generic response if you want to instead of discussing my view point without getting angry. I don’t think less of women then you do. It’s very very hard to discuss an opinion in this particular thread that is anything other then, let’s attack the accused male and take away his job. I hate that I have to redundantly say we should take the women seriously several times, but also offer up something different to discuss. I am fine removing what I posted if the next page of replies is going to be like yours. My post doesn't say what you claim it does, and the accusations against Cuomo can be addressed without resorting to awful excuses for bad behavior and broad generalizations about what men are like. On March 02 2021 21:09 Biff The Understudy wrote:On March 02 2021 20:42 farvacola wrote:
You don't get to speak on behalf of "almost any man" and the notion that men who have a few drinks are bound to uncomfortably touch women and try to kiss them is shameful nonsense. Also, women can talk about bad things that happened to them without putting a lawyer on retainer or keeping the complaint in house, for Christ's sake. I don't know. I don't like Cuomo, but I also find that completely out of proportions. I am not overly interested, so I didn't go to the bottom of all the details, so I might of course miss something. I personally am on the very considerate and extremely careful side with women, but ruining a guy's career because he made "creepy" comments or tried to kiss a woman is just more displaced puritanism imo. If it is nothing that a "no thanks, not interested" wouldn't stop, I just don't see how it's anyone business. And I mean, every couple or every story started with someone making a move. It's just later that you can say "oh, that was creepy and inappropriate", because the other party wasn't interested. Of course if it carries on after the woman makes it clear that it's not gonna happen, it's something else. That's becoming harassment. Is it what Cuomo is being accused of? I am making no claims with respect to what Cuomo should face repercussion wise, I am simply pointing out that men should hold themselves to a higher standard and that generalized "men are belligerent creatures when they drink" notions belong in the dumpster. This. Ask yourself this, BisuDagger: Ist it OK for women to have to put up with inappropriate behaviour just because it wasn't technically harassment (yet)? I didn't say it was okay for them to put up with it. I especially have the woman's back who was a former employee. My problem is that no one is working with these women who speak out to understand what the resolution here should be. Is she (insert any of the accusing woman) speaking out because she just simply wants people to know how inappropriate he can be, because she feels like he shouldn't continue to be in his position of higher office because of his actions, she feels like people aren't responding sharply enough to his nursing home crisis, that she wants a public apology, that she believes he needs to seek help... We are past the "do we believe her or not discussion" and "we are past the do we ignore her or not discussion" which is great. But no one is discussion what the heck we are supposed to do with this information. And without any of these women having that discussion with us, we leave it to the media to escalate it to the most extreme responses possible. I'm not really sure where you're going with this. If you know someone consistently abuses their power, they should be removed from said position of power. Do you agree?
I agree that if there is a pattern of inappropriate behavior in the work place that it should be reviewed for disciplinary action. My sister had to leave a fortune 500 company due to the level of female harassment that took place in the workplace. She went to HR, was ignored, and so she left the company. I know how easy it can be for companies or individuals to get away with their actions instead of being held accountable. If the internal system has failed to stand up for this former employee then I would want to know that. If this was her only avenue to make it known that there is a pattern of inappropriate behavior that isn't being discussed and making it public knowledge was the only way to have it addressed, I hope that a transparent probe into Cuomo and the overall government employee structure in NY can help bring that to light.
|
United States44195 Posts
I believe public officials should be held to a higher standard here. I don’t think anyone would argue that he shouldn’t work but the question isn’t whether he should be prevented from employment, it’s whether he should resign from this specific job that requires him to represent and govern millions of women. As a public representative we can surely do better. Once he’s a private individual again he can continue to meet the much lower standard of behaviour.
|
On March 02 2021 21:49 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I'm generally very forgiving of guys who make these types of transgressions, as long as a) a no is respected and b) there's not too much repeat history and c) there's no boss-employee relationship.
Like, if a guy thinks a girl has been flirting with him and tries to kiss a girl and she says no and then the guy is like oh sorry and doesn't try again, then I'm not gonna think less of him for having misinterpreted her signals. Or if a guy is sitting next to a girl and they're talking together and he notices that she doesn't move her leg when they accidentally brush legs and he interprets that as 'she's comfortable with physical contact' and proceeds putting his hand on her back. That's fine too, even if it results in her removing his hand. And then if he's pretty drunk that evening and he then five minutes later does the same thing again, meh, not gonna judge that, either, although it's not ideal behavior.
But if you're 50 years old and there are a lot of stories about this happening, then you should have learned something like 25 years ago that you should control your drinking. If you try to kiss someone and they're like the fuck you doing and then you try again, then that's not ok either. And if you're the boss of someone, you shouldn't be doing any of this, period. I honestly haven't been looking too much into exactly what Cuomo is being accused of here, but from a cursory glance there seems to be a pattern - and that is genuinely problematic.
I agree with this take the most, and I’d emphasize the “repeated offense” behavior. The unfortunate reality of hearsay and misdirected mob justice certainly come into play in a lot of cases like this, but if there’s a long history of well-corroborated instances of obviously over-the-line behavior occurring, that very solidly overrules benefit of the doubt.
Where are we now, in this instance? I don’t know. I’m sure we’ll eventually see how real the rumors are.
|
It's worth noting that the media should be criticized for how they are portraying this Cuomo incident.
I can entirely understand why people would be a bit skeptical of this whole affair given the headlines that are put out. The NYT's main headlines cite Cuomo asking a woman if he can kiss them as creepy/sexual harrassment. That's it. Their main headlines offer no other context. This is problematic on several levels, from trying to stigmatize an older man pursuing romantic relationships as inherently bad to giving fodder to every conservative that thinks that this is a broader symptom of "Cancel Culture" to seeming to stigmatize the very thing (explicit consent) that progressives champion.
The NYT's full story reporting may be better, but it's hidden behind a paywall and I ain't paying them for shit. Headlines from CNN and the AP seem to be making headlines about this in a similar manner. This seems like an incident that is primed to become the next Franken incident, where, in retrospect, the controversy is relatively mild compared to what our political opponents aren't held accountable for, even by fellow progressives.
|
The main accusations are from a subordinate who wrote them on medium, I posted them a while back in the thread.
There was one instance of unwanted kissing with a lot of "hostile work environment" sexual harassment.
So, there's a lot to say about the issue.
Comedy movies in the 80s portrayed the "loser pursues woman endlessly and they get together" as a sign of persistence being sweet and it's what a lot of people grew up with... but it's something that has been taken as a moral lesson by the wrong groups of people and has become a massively unpopular view with younger women.
A lot of his behavior is only notably wrong because he did it to people who were his subordinates. There's a power imbalance there : they would have felt like their jobs were conditioned on saying yes, even if they weren't in any risk whatsoever. Now, if I sent one of my coworker colleagues flowers and a bunch of other inappropriate comments, I would expect HR to pay me a visit and tell me to stop or be fired - but no one was in a position to tell Cuomo that.
The additional note is that even if you accept that he's just really bad at wooing women, he was already in a long term relationship for many of these allegations. Very few women are willing to sleep with their married boss (technically wasn't married, but they had been together for 14 years), especially if they are aware that he's hitting on tons of other women while married (as most of these women seem to have noted the environment around him being what it was). He didn't seem to be asking these women to have a relationship : he was asking them to sleep with him.
Another thing is that the way he is defending himself is very... suspicious. He is refusing to let the AG investigate it independently, instead insisting that one of his own appointees sign off on the findings. That's not the act of an innocent man, especially one who did this exact same investigation into two other governors and should know how it works.
|
On March 03 2021 02:04 Nevuk wrote:
The main accusations are from a subordinate who wrote them on medium, I posted them a while back in the thread.
There was one instance of unwanted kissing with a lot of "hostile work environment" sexual harassment.
So, there's a lot to say about the issue.
Comedy movies in the 80s portrayed the "loser pursues woman endlessly and they get together" as a sign of persistence being sweet and it's what a lot of people grew up with... but it's something that has been taken as a moral lesson by the wrong groups of people and has become a massively unpopular view with younger women.
A lot of his behavior is only notably wrong because he did it to people who were his subordinates. There's a power imbalance there : they would have felt like their jobs were conditioned on saying yes, even if they weren't in any risk whatsoever. Now, if I sent one of my coworker colleagues flowers and a bunch of other inappropriate comments, I would expect HR to pay me a visit and tell me to stop or be fired - but no one was in a position to tell Cuomo that.
The additional note is that even if you accept that he's just really bad at wooing women, he was already in a long term relationship for many of these allegations. Very few women are willing to sleep with their married boss (technically wasn't married, but they had been together for 14 years), especially if they are aware that he's hitting on tons of other women while married (as most of these women seem to have noted the environment around him being what it was). He didn't seem to be asking these women to have a relationship : he was asking them to sleep with him.
Another thing is that the way he is defending himself is very... suspicious. He is refusing to let the AG investigate it independently, instead insisting that one of his own appointees sign off on the findings. That's not the act of an innocent man, especially one who did this exact same investigation into two other governors and should know how it works.
I'm all for Cuomo getting the axe, as I could not care less about what happens in this situation.
That said, two things:
1) Infidelity is a complete non-issue, as proven by politicians on both sides of the aisle for generations.
2) I'm pretty sure that there is no way that a man can defend himself against sexual harrassment allegations that will "make him look innocent" or "not be suspicious".
As for the power dynamic, I 100% agree that this is the primary ethical transgression here, but at least from a passing perspective, this isn't what is focused on much (if at all) by the media.
|
Yeah, I haven’t looked into the allegations that much, but from what I’ve gathered there’s probably nothing overtly criminal about any of his behavior, but there’s a clear power dynamic in a boss (governor of an entire state, no less!) trying to kiss an employee or asking them to play strip poker or something.
The long-term relationship part is maybe most relevant here not because he’s cheating (I think cheating is shitty behavior but not generally grounds for demanding a resignation), but because it recontextualizes the sexual advance. If your single boss is hitting on you that still fucking sucks but at least they might just like you and be hoping for a relationship. Here, to the extent the boss is proposing something, it’s fucking around on the sly with the implication of “you’d better not tell anybody though.”
FWIW (and I don’t think this makes it better) he might not really be proposing anything at all. A lot of this sort of behavior isn’t actually about getting women to have sex with you. For all the shit male bosses have put female secretaries through in this country, most of them probably never actually had sex with the secretary, and it wasn’t even necessarily the goal. It’s just a work culture in which a big part of social interactions between males is talking cravenly about the females, and some fraction of that spills out into their interactions with those females. Maybe they’re actually hoping it will get them laid, maybe it’s performative for the other men in the office, or maybe it just makes them feel powerful or young or attractive to be able to treat a woman like that.
The thing is, I think there are legitimate complaints about this improvised justice system we’ve informally enacted around stories like this, but the people who complain about it always choose the worst fucking hill to die on. And it’s not just Republicans; they’re mostly just salivating at the possibility of seeing a high-profile Democrat destroyed. Like, sure, there are legitimate complaints to be made about administering justice primarily based on vulnerability and attention, with very little regard for proof or due process, but Cuomo is a very dumb time to take your principled stand against cancel culture, in the same way that Trump being banned from Twitter is a dumb time to take your principled stand about internet moderation silencing legitimate speech. The occasion you choose makes it obvious it’s not really about the principle for you.
Not to derail too much, but it reminds me a bit of people making impassioned arguments that a lifetime ban from Starcraft is too harsh a ban for Life just because he made a mistake and matchfixed. In theory there’d be an argument there, but you won’t hear a single one of these guys calling to bring back Yoda or BboongBboong. It’s just fanboys getting defensive and reaching for any argument they can to justify it.
|
Speaking of hills to die on for free speech, Tanden being denied her appointment for calling Cruz a vampire on twitter four years ago has to be up there. I'm sure you could find a random Trump tweet from the same literal day that's worse than that.
I was ready for all the Rs' discarded principles to be reinstated as soon as they applied to someone else, but come on.
|
well it is kinda a weird state of affairs in itself that his absolutely inappropriate behaviour is more likely to sink him than the nursing home scandal. and the scandal to cover to cover up the scandal.
More than 15,000 people have died from the coronavirus in New York’s nursing homes and long-term care facilities. But as recently as late January, the state was reporting only about 8,500 fatalities, excluding virus-related deaths that occurred physically outside of those facilities, such as in hospitals.
About two weeks ago, the state’s attorney general, Letitia James, accused the Cuomo administration of severely undercounting those deaths connected to nursing homes. Hours later, the state updated those numbers, adding thousands of deaths to the official tally. Since then, a court order has resulted in more updates, further increasing the number of deaths.
Ms. James’s assertion of an undercount of total deaths of nursing home residents fueled accusations that the Cuomo administration may have artificially depressed the number of those deaths to try to deflect blame for a policy set early in the pandemic: sending nursing home residents who had been hospitalized with the coronavirus back to the nursing homes.
NYTimes
plus he already had 3 terms. so change should be welcomed.
|
Harassment can be very complicated, and the responsabilty is not only on the harasser.
Say you think you have a good tone with 2 colleagues, male and female, and you have gotten a habbit of calling them "fatty" and "darling." You call others the same, and you know they take it as a sign of confidence and a close relation. Then they both sue you for repeated harassment during years. But if nobody told you, how could you possibly know?
We all have a responsabilty to correct unvanted behavior.
|
On March 03 2021 17:05 Slydie wrote:
Harassment can be very complicated, and the responsabilty is not only on the harasser.
Say you think you have a good tone with 2 colleagues, male and female, and you have gotten a habbit of calling them "fatty" and "darling." You call others the same, and you know they take it as a sign of confidence and a close relation. Then they both sue you for repeated harassment during years. But if nobody told you, how could you possibly know?
We all have a responsabilty to correct unvanted behavior.
A big thing here are power differences. If you have power over someone, be very careful on how you act around them, and don't expect them to tell you if something you do makes them uncomfortable. Actively minimize stuff that could be viewed as inappropriate. That doesn't mean not having a friendly relationship with your employees, but maybe don't call them "fatty". Communication between boss subordinate is different from communication between people at the same level of a hierarchy, and anyone who claims differently is lying. Telling someone above you in the hierarchy that you are uncomfortable with something they do is not easy, and can be very risky.
Structures in place to discuss or report this kind of behavior early on are also important.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
