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538 did an entire piece within the last week to debunk these false equivalences that Danglars is trying to push.
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On November 24 2020 02:26 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2020 02:03 Danglars wrote:On November 24 2020 00:24 WombaT wrote:On November 23 2020 10:32 Danglars wrote:On November 23 2020 10:07 WombaT wrote:On November 23 2020 08:22 NewSunshine wrote:On November 23 2020 06:04 Danglars wrote:
The Trump team rhetoric has never matched what they’re actually filing in court. Anyone with a brain knows this is dead at the Supreme Court. He exhausts his legal challenges and wastes a lot more money and walks out of office next year. If the majority of Republicans believed as you do then this would be more comforting. They do not. The Dangly One is as tapped in to the pulse of these people as I am, I.e not very. Which isn’t to denigrate or venerate either of our insights, but basic normal people parameters don’t seem to apply whatsoever. I think most people here wouldn’t identify with the 2/3 of Democrats that thought that it was definitely or probably true that Russia tampered with vote tallies to get Trump elected in 2016 (polled at the 2018 midterms). It’s a bipartisan problem, but Republicans look to be pulling into the lead (and it would be comforting if at least one party wouldn’t have big majorities alleging it, to be sure). Two thirds believed Russians actually tampered with vote tallies? I mean I believe the Russians tried to run interference in the elections, because well, they did. Equally I feel they’re an overstated boogeyman to take away from the failure of a candidate to galvanise voter enthusiasm. Also the irony of Americans complaining about election interference isn’t beyond me. The rhetoric that Russia “hacked the election” and Trump was an illegitimate president apparently was enough to convince a majority of Democrats that it probably/definitely involved changing vote tallies. Trump’s taking it very far today, and people are shocked to see so many Republicans polling on tampering. Democrats are also apparently ignorant of their side of the aisle’s views just two years ago (literally, the election just before this one). Believe what you will, but know the context. The difference is that that poll came just after news that Russia had successfully entered 39 state's election systems broke. Directly after the election democrats, by a sizable margin, thought the elections were fair. 1/3 of voters suspected votes would be changed before the midterms by hacking, which is a better comparison, imo.
The same poll results were found in March of that year. March and November. Not a single poll right after some news broke.
2016 or early 2017 was a smaller majority, but I’m having trouble finding the link.
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On November 24 2020 02:09 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2020 00:28 iamthedave wrote:On November 24 2020 00:24 WombaT wrote:On November 23 2020 10:32 Danglars wrote:On November 23 2020 10:07 WombaT wrote:On November 23 2020 08:22 NewSunshine wrote:On November 23 2020 06:04 Danglars wrote:
The Trump team rhetoric has never matched what they’re actually filing in court. Anyone with a brain knows this is dead at the Supreme Court. He exhausts his legal challenges and wastes a lot more money and walks out of office next year. If the majority of Republicans believed as you do then this would be more comforting. They do not. The Dangly One is as tapped in to the pulse of these people as I am, I.e not very. Which isn’t to denigrate or venerate either of our insights, but basic normal people parameters don’t seem to apply whatsoever. I think most people here wouldn’t identify with the 2/3 of Democrats that thought that it was definitely or probably true that Russia tampered with vote tallies to get Trump elected in 2016 (polled at the 2018 midterms). It’s a bipartisan problem, but Republicans look to be pulling into the lead (and it would be comforting if at least one party wouldn’t have big majorities alleging it, to be sure). Two thirds believed Russians actually tampered with vote tallies? I mean I believe the Russians tried to run interference in the elections, because well, they did. Equally I feel they’re an overstated boogeyman to take away from the failure of a candidate to galvanise voter enthusiasm. Also the irony of Americans complaining about election interference isn’t beyond me. It's standard Danglars. Republcans shoot someone on the street, his take would be 'but Democrats once opened a window which is a health and safety violation and might have got someone hurt'. He knows the two situations are completely different. He doesn't care. Because Trump’s taken the thing up to 11, people like you feel it’s safe to forget the history of the matter. It’s good to point out the differences, it’s bad faith and partisanship to pretend Russia changing vote tallies (contrary to evidence) is too different to bring up. I’d be very happy if that number was lower from the party that was prior the loser.
If you'd like a good summary of the differences, I recommend reading this: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/more-republicans-distrust-this-years-election-results-than-democrats-after-2016/
The key difference between now and 2016, though, is that after the election, a majority of Republicans are still unwilling to accept the result. That wasn’t true of Democrats in 2016.
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On November 24 2020 03:19 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2020 02:26 Nevuk wrote:On November 24 2020 02:03 Danglars wrote:On November 24 2020 00:24 WombaT wrote:On November 23 2020 10:32 Danglars wrote:On November 23 2020 10:07 WombaT wrote:On November 23 2020 08:22 NewSunshine wrote:On November 23 2020 06:04 Danglars wrote:
The Trump team rhetoric has never matched what they’re actually filing in court. Anyone with a brain knows this is dead at the Supreme Court. He exhausts his legal challenges and wastes a lot more money and walks out of office next year. If the majority of Republicans believed as you do then this would be more comforting. They do not. The Dangly One is as tapped in to the pulse of these people as I am, I.e not very. Which isn’t to denigrate or venerate either of our insights, but basic normal people parameters don’t seem to apply whatsoever. I think most people here wouldn’t identify with the 2/3 of Democrats that thought that it was definitely or probably true that Russia tampered with vote tallies to get Trump elected in 2016 (polled at the 2018 midterms). It’s a bipartisan problem, but Republicans look to be pulling into the lead (and it would be comforting if at least one party wouldn’t have big majorities alleging it, to be sure). Two thirds believed Russians actually tampered with vote tallies? I mean I believe the Russians tried to run interference in the elections, because well, they did. Equally I feel they’re an overstated boogeyman to take away from the failure of a candidate to galvanise voter enthusiasm. Also the irony of Americans complaining about election interference isn’t beyond me. The rhetoric that Russia “hacked the election” and Trump was an illegitimate president apparently was enough to convince a majority of Democrats that it probably/definitely involved changing vote tallies. Trump’s taking it very far today, and people are shocked to see so many Republicans polling on tampering. Democrats are also apparently ignorant of their side of the aisle’s views just two years ago (literally, the election just before this one). Believe what you will, but know the context. The difference is that that poll came just after news that Russia had successfully entered 39 state's election systems broke. Directly after the election democrats, by a sizable margin, thought the elections were fair. 1/3 of voters suspected votes would be changed before the midterms by hacking, which is a better comparison, imo. The same poll results were found in March of that year. March and November. Not a single poll right after some news broke. 2016 or early 2017 was a smaller majority, but I’m having trouble finding the link.
Right after was an overstatement, but it was after a bloomberg report from June 2017 that people started to seriously believe that.
https://www.vox.com/world/2017/6/13/15791744/russia-election-39-states-hack-putin-trump-sessions
However, your poll directly contradicts more recent ones that have found that, even currently, only half of democrats think the 2016 election was unfair - 39% fair and 11% unsure. So it could be that fewer people believed it in 2020 than in 2017/2018 (especially after the Mueller report didn't find any indications of direct hacking to change votes).
Of registered voters surveyed, 53% said the 2016 election between Trump and Democrat Hillary Clinton was free and fair and 33% said it was not.
While 72% of Republican or Republican-leaning voters said it was free or fair, 39% of Democratic or Democratic-leaning voters said it was. Half of Democratic or Democratic-leaning voters said it wasn’t free and fair while 15% of Republican or Republican-leaning voters said the same.
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United States44353 Posts
On November 24 2020 02:03 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2020 00:24 WombaT wrote:On November 23 2020 10:32 Danglars wrote:On November 23 2020 10:07 WombaT wrote:On November 23 2020 08:22 NewSunshine wrote:On November 23 2020 06:04 Danglars wrote:
The Trump team rhetoric has never matched what they’re actually filing in court. Anyone with a brain knows this is dead at the Supreme Court. He exhausts his legal challenges and wastes a lot more money and walks out of office next year. If the majority of Republicans believed as you do then this would be more comforting. They do not. The Dangly One is as tapped in to the pulse of these people as I am, I.e not very. Which isn’t to denigrate or venerate either of our insights, but basic normal people parameters don’t seem to apply whatsoever. I think most people here wouldn’t identify with the 2/3 of Democrats that thought that it was definitely or probably true that Russia tampered with vote tallies to get Trump elected in 2016 (polled at the 2018 midterms). It’s a bipartisan problem, but Republicans look to be pulling into the lead (and it would be comforting if at least one party wouldn’t have big majorities alleging it, to be sure). Two thirds believed Russians actually tampered with vote tallies? I mean I believe the Russians tried to run interference in the elections, because well, they did. Equally I feel they’re an overstated boogeyman to take away from the failure of a candidate to galvanise voter enthusiasm. Also the irony of Americans complaining about election interference isn’t beyond me. The rhetoric that Russia “hacked the election” and Trump was an illegitimate president apparently was enough to convince a majority of Democrats that it probably/definitely involved changing vote tallies. Trump’s taking it very far today, and people are shocked to see so many Republicans polling on tampering. Democrats are also apparently ignorant of their side of the aisle’s views just two years ago (literally, the election just before this one). Believe what you will, but know the context.
Nobody said that idiots exclusively joined the Republican party. It would be weird if Democrats had no idiots at all. What actually happened (Trump campaign actively coordinating with Russia and negotiating sanction relief in exchange for hacked DNC emails) got twisted into literal votes. But what actually happened is incredibly damning by itself. I'd go as far as to say more damning because it was done with the consent and complicity of the current administration rather than by a rogue state acting alone.
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On November 24 2020 03:22 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2020 02:09 Danglars wrote:On November 24 2020 00:28 iamthedave wrote:On November 24 2020 00:24 WombaT wrote:On November 23 2020 10:32 Danglars wrote:On November 23 2020 10:07 WombaT wrote:On November 23 2020 08:22 NewSunshine wrote:On November 23 2020 06:04 Danglars wrote:
The Trump team rhetoric has never matched what they’re actually filing in court. Anyone with a brain knows this is dead at the Supreme Court. He exhausts his legal challenges and wastes a lot more money and walks out of office next year. If the majority of Republicans believed as you do then this would be more comforting. They do not. The Dangly One is as tapped in to the pulse of these people as I am, I.e not very. Which isn’t to denigrate or venerate either of our insights, but basic normal people parameters don’t seem to apply whatsoever. I think most people here wouldn’t identify with the 2/3 of Democrats that thought that it was definitely or probably true that Russia tampered with vote tallies to get Trump elected in 2016 (polled at the 2018 midterms). It’s a bipartisan problem, but Republicans look to be pulling into the lead (and it would be comforting if at least one party wouldn’t have big majorities alleging it, to be sure). Two thirds believed Russians actually tampered with vote tallies? I mean I believe the Russians tried to run interference in the elections, because well, they did. Equally I feel they’re an overstated boogeyman to take away from the failure of a candidate to galvanise voter enthusiasm. Also the irony of Americans complaining about election interference isn’t beyond me. It's standard Danglars. Republcans shoot someone on the street, his take would be 'but Democrats once opened a window which is a health and safety violation and might have got someone hurt'. He knows the two situations are completely different. He doesn't care. Because Trump’s taken the thing up to 11, people like you feel it’s safe to forget the history of the matter. It’s good to point out the differences, it’s bad faith and partisanship to pretend Russia changing vote tallies (contrary to evidence) is too different to bring up. I’d be very happy if that number was lower from the party that was prior the loser. If you'd like a good summary of the differences, I recommend reading this: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/more-republicans-distrust-this-years-election-results-than-democrats-after-2016/Show nested quote +The key difference between now and 2016, though, is that after the election, a majority of Republicans are still unwilling to accept the result. That wasn’t true of Democrats in 2016.
Accept the result while denying the legitimacy. That’s a fine point to make, albeit with the condition that they aren’t accepting the legitimacy of the vote result. Just don’t go around saying it’s apples and oranges from the start, since election legitimacy is more than just complacency afterwards. It cuts off arguments.
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On November 24 2020 03:23 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2020 03:19 Danglars wrote:On November 24 2020 02:26 Nevuk wrote:On November 24 2020 02:03 Danglars wrote:On November 24 2020 00:24 WombaT wrote:On November 23 2020 10:32 Danglars wrote:On November 23 2020 10:07 WombaT wrote:On November 23 2020 08:22 NewSunshine wrote:On November 23 2020 06:04 Danglars wrote:
The Trump team rhetoric has never matched what they’re actually filing in court. Anyone with a brain knows this is dead at the Supreme Court. He exhausts his legal challenges and wastes a lot more money and walks out of office next year. If the majority of Republicans believed as you do then this would be more comforting. They do not. The Dangly One is as tapped in to the pulse of these people as I am, I.e not very. Which isn’t to denigrate or venerate either of our insights, but basic normal people parameters don’t seem to apply whatsoever. I think most people here wouldn’t identify with the 2/3 of Democrats that thought that it was definitely or probably true that Russia tampered with vote tallies to get Trump elected in 2016 (polled at the 2018 midterms). It’s a bipartisan problem, but Republicans look to be pulling into the lead (and it would be comforting if at least one party wouldn’t have big majorities alleging it, to be sure). Two thirds believed Russians actually tampered with vote tallies? I mean I believe the Russians tried to run interference in the elections, because well, they did. Equally I feel they’re an overstated boogeyman to take away from the failure of a candidate to galvanise voter enthusiasm. Also the irony of Americans complaining about election interference isn’t beyond me. The rhetoric that Russia “hacked the election” and Trump was an illegitimate president apparently was enough to convince a majority of Democrats that it probably/definitely involved changing vote tallies. Trump’s taking it very far today, and people are shocked to see so many Republicans polling on tampering. Democrats are also apparently ignorant of their side of the aisle’s views just two years ago (literally, the election just before this one). Believe what you will, but know the context. The difference is that that poll came just after news that Russia had successfully entered 39 state's election systems broke. Directly after the election democrats, by a sizable margin, thought the elections were fair. 1/3 of voters suspected votes would be changed before the midterms by hacking, which is a better comparison, imo. The same poll results were found in March of that year. March and November. Not a single poll right after some news broke. 2016 or early 2017 was a smaller majority, but I’m having trouble finding the link. Right after was an overstatement, but it was after a bloomberg report from June 2017 that people started to seriously believe that. https://www.vox.com/world/2017/6/13/15791744/russia-election-39-states-hack-putin-trump-sessionsHowever, your poll directly contradicts more recent ones that have found that, even currently, only half of democrats think the 2016 election was unfair - 39% fair and 11% unsure. So it could be that fewer people believed it in 2020 than in 2017/2018 (especially after the Mueller report didn't find any indications of direct hacking to change votes). Show nested quote +Of registered voters surveyed, 53% said the 2016 election between Trump and Democrat Hillary Clinton was free and fair and 33% said it was not.
While 72% of Republican or Republican-leaning voters said it was free or fair, 39% of Democratic or Democratic-leaning voters said it was. Half of Democratic or Democratic-leaning voters said it wasn’t free and fair while 15% of Republican or Republican-leaning voters said the same.
Americans are fickle. Look at enough polls and you’ll find contradictory things simultaneously held by those polled.
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On November 24 2020 03:23 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2020 03:19 Danglars wrote:On November 24 2020 02:26 Nevuk wrote:On November 24 2020 02:03 Danglars wrote:On November 24 2020 00:24 WombaT wrote:On November 23 2020 10:32 Danglars wrote:On November 23 2020 10:07 WombaT wrote:On November 23 2020 08:22 NewSunshine wrote:On November 23 2020 06:04 Danglars wrote:
The Trump team rhetoric has never matched what they’re actually filing in court. Anyone with a brain knows this is dead at the Supreme Court. He exhausts his legal challenges and wastes a lot more money and walks out of office next year. If the majority of Republicans believed as you do then this would be more comforting. They do not. The Dangly One is as tapped in to the pulse of these people as I am, I.e not very. Which isn’t to denigrate or venerate either of our insights, but basic normal people parameters don’t seem to apply whatsoever. I think most people here wouldn’t identify with the 2/3 of Democrats that thought that it was definitely or probably true that Russia tampered with vote tallies to get Trump elected in 2016 (polled at the 2018 midterms). It’s a bipartisan problem, but Republicans look to be pulling into the lead (and it would be comforting if at least one party wouldn’t have big majorities alleging it, to be sure). Two thirds believed Russians actually tampered with vote tallies? I mean I believe the Russians tried to run interference in the elections, because well, they did. Equally I feel they’re an overstated boogeyman to take away from the failure of a candidate to galvanise voter enthusiasm. Also the irony of Americans complaining about election interference isn’t beyond me. The rhetoric that Russia “hacked the election” and Trump was an illegitimate president apparently was enough to convince a majority of Democrats that it probably/definitely involved changing vote tallies. Trump’s taking it very far today, and people are shocked to see so many Republicans polling on tampering. Democrats are also apparently ignorant of their side of the aisle’s views just two years ago (literally, the election just before this one). Believe what you will, but know the context. The difference is that that poll came just after news that Russia had successfully entered 39 state's election systems broke. Directly after the election democrats, by a sizable margin, thought the elections were fair. 1/3 of voters suspected votes would be changed before the midterms by hacking, which is a better comparison, imo. The same poll results were found in March of that year. March and November. Not a single poll right after some news broke. 2016 or early 2017 was a smaller majority, but I’m having trouble finding the link. Right after was an overstatement, but it was after a bloomberg report from June 2017 that people started to seriously believe that. https://www.vox.com/world/2017/6/13/15791744/russia-election-39-states-hack-putin-trump-sessionsHowever, your poll directly contradicts more recent ones that have found that, even currently, only half of democrats think the 2016 election was unfair - 39% fair and 11% unsure. So it could be that fewer people believed it in 2020 than in 2017/2018 (especially after the Mueller report didn't find any indications of direct hacking to change votes). Show nested quote +Of registered voters surveyed, 53% said the 2016 election between Trump and Democrat Hillary Clinton was free and fair and 33% said it was not.
While 72% of Republican or Republican-leaning voters said it was free or fair, 39% of Democratic or Democratic-leaning voters said it was. Half of Democratic or Democratic-leaning voters said it wasn’t free and fair while 15% of Republican or Republican-leaning voters said the same.
"Not fair" can also mean a lot of stuff. For example, i would concur that it is not fair that the system enables a person with fewer votes to win against a person with more votes. It doesn't need to mean "russians hacked the election", or "there was fraud".
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On November 24 2020 03:54 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2020 03:23 Nevuk wrote:On November 24 2020 03:19 Danglars wrote:On November 24 2020 02:26 Nevuk wrote:On November 24 2020 02:03 Danglars wrote:On November 24 2020 00:24 WombaT wrote:On November 23 2020 10:32 Danglars wrote:On November 23 2020 10:07 WombaT wrote:On November 23 2020 08:22 NewSunshine wrote:On November 23 2020 06:04 Danglars wrote:
The Trump team rhetoric has never matched what they’re actually filing in court. Anyone with a brain knows this is dead at the Supreme Court. He exhausts his legal challenges and wastes a lot more money and walks out of office next year. If the majority of Republicans believed as you do then this would be more comforting. They do not. The Dangly One is as tapped in to the pulse of these people as I am, I.e not very. Which isn’t to denigrate or venerate either of our insights, but basic normal people parameters don’t seem to apply whatsoever. I think most people here wouldn’t identify with the 2/3 of Democrats that thought that it was definitely or probably true that Russia tampered with vote tallies to get Trump elected in 2016 (polled at the 2018 midterms). It’s a bipartisan problem, but Republicans look to be pulling into the lead (and it would be comforting if at least one party wouldn’t have big majorities alleging it, to be sure). Two thirds believed Russians actually tampered with vote tallies? I mean I believe the Russians tried to run interference in the elections, because well, they did. Equally I feel they’re an overstated boogeyman to take away from the failure of a candidate to galvanise voter enthusiasm. Also the irony of Americans complaining about election interference isn’t beyond me. The rhetoric that Russia “hacked the election” and Trump was an illegitimate president apparently was enough to convince a majority of Democrats that it probably/definitely involved changing vote tallies. Trump’s taking it very far today, and people are shocked to see so many Republicans polling on tampering. Democrats are also apparently ignorant of their side of the aisle’s views just two years ago (literally, the election just before this one). Believe what you will, but know the context. The difference is that that poll came just after news that Russia had successfully entered 39 state's election systems broke. Directly after the election democrats, by a sizable margin, thought the elections were fair. 1/3 of voters suspected votes would be changed before the midterms by hacking, which is a better comparison, imo. The same poll results were found in March of that year. March and November. Not a single poll right after some news broke. 2016 or early 2017 was a smaller majority, but I’m having trouble finding the link. Right after was an overstatement, but it was after a bloomberg report from June 2017 that people started to seriously believe that. https://www.vox.com/world/2017/6/13/15791744/russia-election-39-states-hack-putin-trump-sessionsHowever, your poll directly contradicts more recent ones that have found that, even currently, only half of democrats think the 2016 election was unfair - 39% fair and 11% unsure. So it could be that fewer people believed it in 2020 than in 2017/2018 (especially after the Mueller report didn't find any indications of direct hacking to change votes). Of registered voters surveyed, 53% said the 2016 election between Trump and Democrat Hillary Clinton was free and fair and 33% said it was not.
While 72% of Republican or Republican-leaning voters said it was free or fair, 39% of Democratic or Democratic-leaning voters said it was. Half of Democratic or Democratic-leaning voters said it wasn’t free and fair while 15% of Republican or Republican-leaning voters said the same. Americans are fickle. Look at enough polls and you’ll find contradictory things simultaneously held by those polled.
Okay... Right after you try to make a whataboutist counterpoint to Trump's bullshit by pointing to a poll. What he did can't be problematic in a vacuum, the Democrats had to do something that was just as bad. You also try to equate the President with Democratic voters, having apparently no standards for your leader as he desecrates his office. Okay.
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Norway28902 Posts
Dunno what more you guys are expecting from a conservative than 'Donald Trump is worse than democrats but democrats are also fucked'. That's a sentiment you can find much support from among Biden voters too. Danglars has specifically stated that Trump goes further than what Democrats have been doing. No need to have a debate over someone not adding enough intensifying words.
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On November 24 2020 00:52 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2020 00:12 Nevuk wrote:
Carl Bernstein just outed a bunch of GOP senators for having repeatedly expressed contempt for Trump in private. Some are pretty surprising (Rick Scott for instance). Seems like he's going on the record since they're staying quiet about the ridiculous election fraud claims.
Bernstein is one of the duo of Woodward and Bernstein, who helped bring down Nixon. He's very credible.
He must feel this is very important to bring up as it might hurt him getting off the record comments in the future.
idk, if publishing their efforts to bring down Nixon wasn’t disclaimer enough not to air your dirty laundry to them, i can’t see these morons getting wise to the pattern. These people are even dumber than they look.
On November 24 2020 01:46 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2020 00:52 Gorsameth wrote:On November 24 2020 00:12 Nevuk wrote:Carl Bernstein just outed a bunch of GOP senators for having repeatedly expressed contempt for Trump in private. Some are pretty surprising (Rick Scott for instance). Seems like he's going on the record since they're staying quiet about the ridiculous election fraud claims. Bernstein is one of the duo of Woodward and Bernstein, who helped bring down Nixon. He's very credible. https://twitter.com/carlbernstein/status/1330710305354129410 And yet all those 21 senators stood by as Trump shat on the country and all of them likely (cba to check the records) voted to clear him during impeachment. Actions speak louder then words, especially words spoken in private behind closed doors. These were people that actually had some power to do something and they didn't. Romney voted for impeachment on 1 of 2 counts (granted, the less important one). None of the others did, and only a couple ever publicly criticized him (mainly Romney and Sasse). Some went to kayfabe lengths to defend him (Rick Scott). One of them (Mike Braun) is publicly denying the reports, which is silly. This isn't some unknown CNN reporter. In any battle of credibility, a senator will lose to Bernstein. I recall when Trump was denying the things in Woodward's book... and then it got revealed all of them were on tape (and rando GOP senators don't have the same faith from the GOP base that Trump does). Show nested quote +UPDATE 11:28 a.m. ET — One of the senators named by Bernstein is denying the report. In a statement provided to Mediaite, Sen. Mike Braun insists that he is firmly in the president’s corner.
“This is more false news from a CNN political analyst, as I was one of President Trump’s top defenders during impeachment and strongly support his legal efforts to ensure that every legal vote is counted.” https://www.mediaite.com/news/21-gop-senators-privately-expressing-extreme-contempt-for-trump-get-outed-by-carl-bernstein-who-names-names/
i’m taking bets that Bernstein has receipts. i won’t say tapes, but i’m at least betting it’s in writing at a minimum.
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Not really new-news, but more stuff comes out about Amazon spying on it's employees to prevent things such as unionization. Evidently hiring Pinkertons to spy on their employees, which is, I mean, just... come on, can we get more fucking late 19th century early 20th century in this country right now?
Ever since I spent a little time working in one of their warehouses Ive said theyre PRIME (heh) for unionization, they'd have to shake up their entire 2-day shipping business model if they tried to send jobs overseas, so the workers there have a lot of leverage. Looks like Amazon knows it.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/5dp3yn/amazon-leaked-reports-expose-spying-warehouse-workers-labor-union-environmental-groups-social-movements
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Based on what has been said so far at the Michigan state board of canvassers' certification meeting that started at 1 EST, the less Trumpy Republican on the 4 person board is leaning towards certifying, possibly because he's a lawyer who grasps how little discretion the board actually has. The vote should happen later today. Naturally, the other Republican on the board, Norm Finkle, sounds like a doofus that should never have been allowed anywhere near a public body, but alas, very few people have ever known to care about marginal government entities like state boards of canvassers.
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On November 24 2020 04:53 farvacola wrote:
Based on what has been said so far at the Michigan state board of canvassers' certification meeting that started at 1 EST, the less Trumpy Republican on the 4 person board is leaning towards certifying, possibly because he's a lawyer who grasps how little discretion the board actually has. The vote should happen later today. Naturally, the other Republican on the board, Norm Finkle, sounds like a doofus that should never have been allowed anywhere near a public body, but alas, very few people have ever known to care about marginal government entities like state boards of canvassers.
I find it hard to believe someone designed a system where politicians certify elections their party has lost.
Afaik, the system was meant to not include political parties at all, but that fell apart quickly...
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On November 24 2020 05:53 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2020 04:53 farvacola wrote:
Based on what has been said so far at the Michigan state board of canvassers' certification meeting that started at 1 EST, the less Trumpy Republican on the 4 person board is leaning towards certifying, possibly because he's a lawyer who grasps how little discretion the board actually has. The vote should happen later today. Naturally, the other Republican on the board, Norm Finkle, sounds like a doofus that should never have been allowed anywhere near a public body, but alas, very few people have ever known to care about marginal government entities like state boards of canvassers.
I find it hard to believe someone designed a system where politicians certify elections their party has lost. Afaik, the system was meant to not include political parties at all, but that fell apart quickly...
Correct. They were even held in contempt or treated as, at best, a necessary evil, until Martin Van Buren came along and argued that they were actually more efficient than not having parties.
Most other states have pretty stringent requirements on this sort of thing - the GA SoS pointed out that he's required to certify by law. If he refused then a court would just force him to do so (similar to Kim Davis : your personal beliefs don't matter in this position).
Michigan is weird in that it has these strange independent boards with theoretically more latitude than most other states and that it's the only one of the states where Trump stands a chance at all. That's because it can be decided on a purely partisan basis - if they refuse to certify, then the state SC can vote along party lines to agree that they have the power, then the legislature can overturn the results, also on a party line vote. (This bipartisan vote certification thing is relatively new, I think 1950s? I'll find it it and edit it in. Yes, 1950s -Contentious recounts in the 1950s led to a constitutional amendment to prevent partisanship from interfering with the certification, says attorney and former Michigan Democratic Party chair Mark Brewer. )
The chances of that are incredibly low for a few reasons.
1. It wouldn't matter. Trump would need other states to overturn as well, and they don't have this mechanism.
2. The courts in general have seemed pretty contemptuous. Not only would they have to get the MI supreme court to sign off, the Roberts court would have to agree not to interfere.
3.Michigan wasn't just a little behind for Trump. It was a LOT behind, and that makes it really hard to justify this sort of thing publicly for the state legislature.
3+1 are intertwined - why on earth would they stick their necks out for Trump when it is literally meaningless?
If the board refuses to certify, I would guess it dies at the MI Supreme Court. The legal case is absurd, to put it mildly.
edit: Oh, and it's a federal felony to refuse to certify votes, btw. That's why everyone is folding (important caveat is "lawful votes" - but that's a legal standard, IE, you have to have proof that holds up in a court of law to refuse and not get charged). This being a felony was added in the Voting Rights Act of 1965 and was basically immediately used when an infamously racist sheriff tried to throw out all black votes after they voted against him.
Edit 2: Update, it passed 3-0 with 1 abstain vote.
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GG. Michigan means this is officially over unless some crazy amount of electors defect.
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On November 24 2020 07:25 Mohdoo wrote:
GG. Michigan means this is officially over unless some crazy amount of electors defect.
It's as over as it has always been. It wont stop Trump from suing though.
Until the electors actually vote, we will see Trump in court suing everyone and their mothers
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On November 24 2020 07:25 Mohdoo wrote:
GG. Michigan means this is officially over unless some crazy amount of electors defect.
I don't really expect a lot of faithless elector shenanigans this year. The only ones we had were for show for two highly despised candidates when the issue of "stealing the election" wasn't nearly as powerful as it is today. I don't think any state will have much tolerance for potential defectors this time around.
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EPT
