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On September 15 2020 05:12 ShoCkeyy wrote:
The Bible also says to love everyone. Something a lot of Christians these days blatantly ignore.
I think it's pretty safe to say that anyone could cherry pick Biblical verses and justify just about anything, due to the rampant inconsistencies and contradictions throughout the testaments (case in point: the KKK is Christian too). It generally seems to be the case that Christians don't derive their morality from the Bible, per se, but rather have their own personal morals (like everyone else) and then search through the Bible for a post hoc rationalization. That would be consistent with the fact that our understanding of morality has evolved as cultures and societies progress, rather than stagnate with the occasional old-school religious text.
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ICE whistleblower complaint alleges the US has been (forcibly?) sterilizing women, failing to test people for covid-19 and just general medical neglect in private for-profit concentration camps.
Several legal advocacy groups on Monday filed a whistleblower complaint on behalf of a nurse at an Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) detention center documenting “jarring medical neglect” within the facility, including a refusal to test detainees for the novel coronavirus and an exorbitant rate of hysterectomies being performed on immigrant women.
Multiple women came forward to tell Project South about what they perceived to be the inordinate rate at which women in ICDC were subjected to hysterectomies – a surgical operation in which all or part of the uterus is removed. Additionally, many of the immigrant women who underwent the procedure were reportedly “confused” when asked to explain why they had the surgery, with one detainee likening their treatment to prisoners in concentration camps.
According to Wooten, ICDC consistently used a particular gynecologist – outside the facility – who almost always opted to remove all or part of the uterus of his female detainee patients.
“Everybody he sees has a hysterectomy—just about everybody,” Wooten said, adding that, “everybody’s uterus cannot be that bad.”
“We’ve questioned among ourselves like goodness he’s taking everybody’s stuff out…That’s his specialty, he’s the uterus collector. I know that’s ugly…is he collecting these things or something…Everybody he sees, he’s taking all their uteruses out or he’s taken their tubes out. What in the world.”
The complaint details several accounts from detainees, including one woman who was not properly anesthetized during the procedure and heard the aforementioned doctor tell the nurse he had mistakenly removed the wrong ovary, resulting in her losing all reproductive ability. Another said she was scheduled for the procedure but when she questioned why it was necessary, she was given at least three completely different answers.
lawandcrime.com
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Nothing short of disturbing, both on its own and in light of some choice historical parallels.
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If the allegations are true, I bet there’s some lawyers lining up to file a class action suit against this doctor. I would guess that there is no official policy of sterilization and he has gone rogue. He’ll get hit with a huge medical malpractice suit and lose his license and potentially go to jail depending on who the criminal prosecutor is for the correct jurisdiction. If it’s federal jurisdiction, I’m guessing a Biden appointed Attorney General would love to make an example of this guy. Barr, not so much.
There is a difference between the two, despite what radical leftists would have you believe. We have a legal system that does hold this type of person civilly and criminally liable. We aren’t China.
Of course this is all presuming that the accusations are accurate and not completely exaggerated as is often the case with articles like this one.
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On September 15 2020 09:25 RenSC2 wrote:
If the allegations are true, I bet there’s some lawyers lining up to file a class action suit against this doctor. I would guess that there is no official policy of sterilization and he has gone rogue. He’ll get hit with a huge medical malpractice suit and lose his license and potentially go to jail depending on who the criminal prosecutor is for the correct jurisdiction. If it’s federal jurisdiction, I’m guessing a Biden appointed Attorney General would love to make an example of this guy. Barr, not so much.
There is a difference between the two, despite what radical leftists would have you believe. We have a legal system that does hold this type of person civilly and criminally liable. We aren’t China.
Of course this is all presuming that the accusations are accurate and not completely exaggerated as is often the case with articles like this one.
You have more faith in Biden and the criminal justice system than I think is rational, but are you suggesting this nurse (besides proposing that she's exaggerating) would be the person responsible for identifying this issue and that the lack of accountability for (at minimum) the gross neglect of management in identifying this issue isn't extremely problematic?
EDIT: Besides the sterilizations there's also the whole covid-19 issue which has been absolutely atrocious in US prisons and detention facilities.
Including recently exploiting a loophole for transporting detainees (which preceded an outbreak) so ICE agents could help with the authoritarian crackdown on protesters in DC .
At the peak of the protests following the death of George Floyd, ICE special response teams were brought in on June 2 on a charter aircraft used to transport detainees because of ICE regulations that prohibit the use of those charter flights for employee travel. The agency transported detainees from Arizona and Florida, and those same detainees were placed in the Farmville Detention Center and appeared to have triggered a huge outbreak that infected more than 300 people
wjla.com
Not the first instance of ICE transfers spreading covid-19 though
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Canada11588 Posts
On September 15 2020 06:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2020 05:12 ShoCkeyy wrote:
The Bible also says to love everyone. Something a lot of Christians these days blatantly ignore. I think it's pretty safe to say that anyone could cherry pick Biblical verses and justify just about anything, due to the rampant inconsistencies and contradictions throughout the testaments (case in point: the KKK is Christian too). It generally seems to be the case that Christians don't derive their morality from the Bible, per se, but rather have their own personal morals (like everyone else) and then search through the Bible for a post hoc rationalization. That would be consistent with the fact that our understanding of morality has evolved as cultures and societies progress, rather than stagnate with the occasional old-school religious text.
Whatever inconsistencies and contradictions may be throughout the testaments, "KKK is Christian too" is not a case in point. A bad interpretation is a bad interpretation. They cannot have a consistent read when they are forced to get around the fact that Jesus would have been a Jew (We watched some video clips of one those groups in first year psychology try and explain something about him not having DNA, which directly contradicts the whole God coming as a man... which is pretty much the whole point of Christianity as far as I can tell.)
As for number of verses, I don't think this is usually the way things are determined. Prohibition against kidnapping gets one, possibly two verses and no mention in the new testament. If it wasn't a controversial point at the time, it wouldn't get commented on as much.
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On September 15 2020 09:43 GreenHorizons wrote:EDIT: Besides the sterilizations there's also the whole covid-19 issue which has been absolutely atrocious in US prisons and detention facilities. Including recently exploiting a loophole for transporting detainees (which preceded an outbreak) so ICE agents could help with the authoritarian crackdown on protesters in DC . Show nested quote +At the peak of the protests following the death of George Floyd, ICE special response teams were brought in on June 2 on a charter aircraft used to transport detainees because of ICE regulations that prohibit the use of those charter flights for employee travel. The agency transported detainees from Arizona and Florida, and those same detainees were placed in the Farmville Detention Center and appeared to have triggered a huge outbreak that infected more than 300 people wjla.comNot the first instance of ICE transfers spreading covid-19 though
Yeah there's been big covid outbreaks in the prisons in my state and some riots breaking out too. Think everyone knew it would happen but gave a collective shrug.
This forced sterilization stuff is pretty wild if true. Seems pretty in keeping though with mass deporting people to their deaths, splitting and incarcerating families etc. I will enjoy hearing the defense or downplaying of forced sterilization from people who think providing abortions is a great imposition of the state and moral evil.
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On September 15 2020 09:43 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2020 09:25 RenSC2 wrote:
If the allegations are true, I bet there’s some lawyers lining up to file a class action suit against this doctor. I would guess that there is no official policy of sterilization and he has gone rogue. He’ll get hit with a huge medical malpractice suit and lose his license and potentially go to jail depending on who the criminal prosecutor is for the correct jurisdiction. If it’s federal jurisdiction, I’m guessing a Biden appointed Attorney General would love to make an example of this guy. Barr, not so much.
There is a difference between the two, despite what radical leftists would have you believe. We have a legal system that does hold this type of person civilly and criminally liable. We aren’t China.
Of course this is all presuming that the accusations are accurate and not completely exaggerated as is often the case with articles like this one. You have more faith in Biden and the criminal justice system than I think is rational, but are you suggesting this nurse (besides proposing that she's exaggerating) would be the person responsible for identifying this issue and that the lack of accountability for (at minimum) the gross neglect of management in identifying this issue isn't extremely problematic? EDIT: Besides the sterilizations there's also the whole covid-19 issue which has been absolutely atrocious in US prisons and detention facilities. Including recently exploiting a loophole for transporting detainees (which preceded an outbreak) so ICE agents could help with the authoritarian crackdown on protesters in DC . Show nested quote +At the peak of the protests following the death of George Floyd, ICE special response teams were brought in on June 2 on a charter aircraft used to transport detainees because of ICE regulations that prohibit the use of those charter flights for employee travel. The agency transported detainees from Arizona and Florida, and those same detainees were placed in the Farmville Detention Center and appeared to have triggered a huge outbreak that infected more than 300 people wjla.comNot the first instance of ICE transfers spreading covid-19 though
On Covid, yeah, all of the US federal government has handled it terribly. Shouldn't be surprising that an area that's already notoriously bad (prisons and ICE) has handled it particularly bad.
My faith in Biden and the criminal justice system is certainly smaller than my faith in lawyers wanting to make money. There's gotta be an ambulance chaser out there who reads that article and starts seeing dollar signs. I could certainly see the doctor getting away with it criminally. I can't see him getting away with it civilly if the article is remotely true.
On the lack of accountability, yeah, the government is a huge organization where about half the lawmakers are purposely trying to hamstring oversight, including the president, and the other half isn't always the most competent. Shit is going to sneak through and it takes whistleblowers to call things out. The key is having people in power who will support whistleblowers rather than guys like Trump.
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On September 15 2020 10:31 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2020 06:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 15 2020 05:12 ShoCkeyy wrote:
The Bible also says to love everyone. Something a lot of Christians these days blatantly ignore. I think it's pretty safe to say that anyone could cherry pick Biblical verses and justify just about anything, due to the rampant inconsistencies and contradictions throughout the testaments (case in point: the KKK is Christian too). It generally seems to be the case that Christians don't derive their morality from the Bible, per se, but rather have their own personal morals (like everyone else) and then search through the Bible for a post hoc rationalization. That would be consistent with the fact that our understanding of morality has evolved as cultures and societies progress, rather than stagnate with the occasional old-school religious text. Whatever inconsistencies and contradictions may be throughout the testaments, "KKK is Christian too" is not a case in point. A bad interpretation is a bad interpretation. They cannot have a consistent read when they are forced to get around the fact that Jesus would have been a Jew (We watched some video clips of one those groups in first year psychology try and explain something about him not having DNA, which directly contradicts the whole God coming as a man... which is pretty much the whole point of Christianity as far as I can tell.) As for number of verses, I don't think this is usually the way things are determined. Prohibition against kidnapping gets one, possibly two verses and no mention in the new testament. If it wasn't a controversial point at the time, it wouldn't get commented on as much.
Fair enough. It's really easy to call a Biblical interpretation a "bad" one; after all, there are hundreds of Christian sects because they've all found reasons to disagree with each other on one thing or another. To quote Matt Dillahunty: "If you want to find out what's wrong with the First Baptist Church, all you need to do is ask the Second Baptist Church."
Anyway, for as much as I'd like people to be more grounded in fact and less in faith, I'm more concerned with how people act (and vote) based on their beliefs. If someone wants to say that a deity is giving them permission to support civil rights, I'll happily accept them as an ally, even if we have philosophical differences and even if I don't think they have a solid foundation for believing what they believe. I'd love to have separate conversations to learn about what they believe and why they believe it, but I find that to be a secondary luxury - a bonus - compared to people living good lives.
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On September 15 2020 11:40 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2020 09:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 15 2020 09:25 RenSC2 wrote:
If the allegations are true, I bet there’s some lawyers lining up to file a class action suit against this doctor. I would guess that there is no official policy of sterilization and he has gone rogue. He’ll get hit with a huge medical malpractice suit and lose his license and potentially go to jail depending on who the criminal prosecutor is for the correct jurisdiction. If it’s federal jurisdiction, I’m guessing a Biden appointed Attorney General would love to make an example of this guy. Barr, not so much.
There is a difference between the two, despite what radical leftists would have you believe. We have a legal system that does hold this type of person civilly and criminally liable. We aren’t China.
Of course this is all presuming that the accusations are accurate and not completely exaggerated as is often the case with articles like this one. You have more faith in Biden and the criminal justice system than I think is rational, but are you suggesting this nurse (besides proposing that she's exaggerating) would be the person responsible for identifying this issue and that the lack of accountability for (at minimum) the gross neglect of management in identifying this issue isn't extremely problematic? EDIT: Besides the sterilizations there's also the whole covid-19 issue which has been absolutely atrocious in US prisons and detention facilities. Including recently exploiting a loophole for transporting detainees (which preceded an outbreak) so ICE agents could help with the authoritarian crackdown on protesters in DC . At the peak of the protests following the death of George Floyd, ICE special response teams were brought in on June 2 on a charter aircraft used to transport detainees because of ICE regulations that prohibit the use of those charter flights for employee travel. The agency transported detainees from Arizona and Florida, and those same detainees were placed in the Farmville Detention Center and appeared to have triggered a huge outbreak that infected more than 300 people wjla.comNot the first instance of ICE transfers spreading covid-19 though On Covid, yeah, all of the US federal government has handled it terribly. Shouldn't be surprising that an area that's already notoriously bad (prisons and ICE) has handled it particularly bad. My faith in Biden and the criminal justice system is certainly smaller than my faith in lawyers wanting to make money. There's gotta be an ambulance chaser out there who reads that article and starts seeing dollar signs. I could certainly see the doctor getting away with it criminally. I can't see him getting away with it civilly if the article is remotely true. On the lack of accountability, yeah, the government is a huge organization where about half the lawmakers are purposely trying to hamstring oversight, including the president, and the other half isn't always the most competent. Shit is going to sneak through and it takes whistleblowers to call things out. The key is having people in power who will support whistleblowers rather than guys like Trump.
Last time a major illegal government operation was blown wide open by a whistleblower, that whistleblower fled for his life to Russia, and that wasn't under Trump (not that Trump gave him amnesty). The main problem with Trump is that he is willfully breaking government, by appointing people who are either incompetent or even antagonistic to what their job description is (e.g. Betty deVos in charge of public education, or either of the appointees at the head of the EPA).
Whistleblowers will never be supported by their superiors, which is why they need to blow the whistle, rather than go through normal channels.
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Trump seems to be worse than Obama on the whistleblower front, but Obama was the most aggressive anti-whistleblower president compared to a long, long line of his predecessors. I see no reason to think his VP would be any more generous there.
In the US, whistleblowers are punished with such ferocity as to show the next potential candidates for such behavior what will happen to them. Being a grifter pays, blowing the whistle does not, and Trump merely built upon what was left to him by his predecessors.
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Northern Ireland27232 Posts
On September 15 2020 13:10 LegalLord wrote:
Trump seems to be worse than Obama on the whistleblower front, but Obama was the most aggressive anti-whistleblower president compared to a long, long line of his predecessors. I see no reason to think his VP would be any more generous there.
In the US, whistleblowers are punished with such ferocity as to show the next potential candidates for such behavior what will happen to them. Being a grifter pays, blowing the whistle does not, and Trump merely built upon what was left to him by his predecessors.
Not just in the US, although it seems rather worse there than in other places.
Rather gives a lie to the idea that x system was functioning incorrectly when one looks at the treatment of whistleblowers drawing attention to and trying to correct these malfunctions.
The system is so fundamentally fucked in what is legitimately allowed anyway that hey what are a few extra illicit steps? ICE notably having featured quite prominently on this page from stuff it was entirely above board in doing and had quite a lot of public support in doing from various sectors.
Given the general conditions, detention camps being Covid hotbeds is not remotely surprising. Sterilising people is grotesque but given what I’ve seen already it merely saw me raise an eyebrow rather than let out a gasp of shock. Which is pretty damning really.
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Thread detailing how the FBI broke surveillance laws 15,993 out of 16,000 times or 99.9% of the time (I've mentioned many times how illegal domestic surveillance is the norm at the FBI). Also how there is no accountability.
A group of kindergartners with a youtube tutorial could do better than that at following procedure/the law.
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Congratulations to them for the dunk. However, it’s throwing away a lot of the “Trust Science” the popular scientific journal could rely on. Non-partisanship is an important concept in relying on scientists to tell the truth. If the same types of people also use science-oriented publications to make political endorsement, it ruins the foundation.
The other poor result is to discourage conservatives and centrists from feeling welcome in the sciences, and a one-party scientific establishment is a definite long-term risk to academia. I think they’re throwing away a good tradition for no good gain.
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There was a lot of "unprecedented endorsement" stuff going around in Clinton vs Trump, and some people made a big deal out of it. Evidently it didn't help enough.
The Twitter traffic rightly calls this out as a dumb idea.
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EPT
