EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 2591
| Forum Index > General Forum |
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
|
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
| ||
|
IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On August 30 2020 10:24 Starlightsun wrote: Yes China is important, and credit to Danglars for the relevant links. It's just that if we're going to tie it to the US election, let's be honest that the plight of the Uighurs is going to be far down the list in the minds of the majority of voters. I'm sure we'll hear a lot of "The China Virus" from Trump, but I don't know what Biden should be expected to say about China at this point in time. Yes I agree with this. | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland27230 Posts
Myself also, such things should be a bigger issue but I just don’t they really are. If one did want to properly turn the screws on China you’re going to need a hell of a lot of political capital to burn to do it, you can’t exactly do much in terms of economic sanctions without a lot of buy in to the necessity of it. Or multilateral cooperation internationally. Maybe you can do that with ‘China is stealing our jobs’ or whatever, sure as fuck don’t think you can do it over the Uighurs, or even Hong Kong. We’ll see how things progress. Nothing I can recall to link, have heard the Chinese leadership are happy to just wait Trump out and see what comes after the election. His more hostile approach may play well in some quarters, it doesn’t seem particularly effective either. That said I think stuff like Hong Kong and the Uighurs being resolved is just wishful thinking and projection. It’s never really at the forefront of anything, just adornment to ‘do what suits Americans’. Sabres will be rattled on trade, which IMO is bollocks, or on cybersecurity concerns (less bollocks) but it’s never under the auspices of civil rights issues. | ||
|
Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On August 30 2020 10:24 JimmiC wrote: According to Danglars that is what middle america cares about most. Not Covid, the economy, the racial injustice, wealth disparity. Trump saying China is bad (duh) and Biden did not so he's winning. The sad part was that the strategy of making up a enemy for trump to fight, Caravans of evil migrants invading from the South worked last time. So far Biden keeping his eye on the prize and not getting into fights is working out well. Whatever happened to Tara Reade? Last I heard her lawyer dropped her and nothing has came from it. Waiting till closer to the election to inflict maximum damage. Or was the "Biden's a rapist" thing spoken too soon? Lol notable in the absence, not “what middle America cares about most.” So trolly. | ||
|
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
| ||
|
iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4433 Posts
On August 30 2020 13:22 JimmiC wrote: Those that care only about guns and keeping others down are not worth catering too, same with those willing to pretend Trump cares about Christianity. Its the others you are going for. The actual Christians are very much in play and they care about you treat your fellow man. Pretty debatable that they are even in play and if they were what has Biden done to win them over? What is in play are the moderate anti-war voters, Trump will mention in the debates he hasn't started new wars, has had great success in Syria, has removed many troops from overseas (just announced removing further 1/3 of US troops from Iraq).Will mention Biden voted in favour of Iraq war as senator.... Really though it's turning out like I said two months back, post #49559 July 3rd.Trumps odds have shortened since then from 2.70 to 2.00, Minnesota has gone from 4.30 into 2.75.Most 2 recent MN polls Trafalgar Tie and Emerson +3 Biden. Trump now betting favorites in NC, RCP battleground average is now down to +2.7 Biden vs +4.7 Clinton 2016.Theres no enthusiasm for Biden and he still has to bumble his way through three debates. On July 03 2020 20:05 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Really? I put a few hundred on Trump to win the election recently, plus a little on him to win Minnesota.Here's the bets I had back on the 2016 election lifted from my old photobucket + Show Spoiler + Gonna be a hell of a lot happening between now and November I know that much. I think his odds will shorten from here in. I don't know what's crazier.Biden still being the nominee or most people here still thinking he's going to beat Trump. | ||
|
GreenHorizons
United States24156 Posts
| ||
|
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
I really like the symbolism of this video snippet of Portland where there's a parade of out of town MAGA trucks driving one way, then the light goes red and city people get to drive and give them all the finger. The crossroads of the USA. + Show Spoiler + | ||
|
pmh
1416 Posts
On August 30 2020 10:24 Starlightsun wrote: Yes China is important, and credit to Danglars for the relevant links. It's just that if we're going to tie it to the US election, let's be honest that the plight of the Uighurs is going to be far down the list in the minds of the majority of voters. I'm sure we'll hear a lot of "The China Virus" from Trump, but I don't know what Biden should be expected to say about China at this point in time. Trump is attacking biden on china. Quoting from his acceptence speech:bidens agenda is made in china,my agenda is made in the usa. Its a message that does resonate well with many americans (doesnt even matter if its true or false). So biden should pretty much just do the same. Put more emphasisis on the economic issues when it comes to china and that he is even more in favor of made in the usa then trump. Simply copy what trump is saying about china. In the end its all about winning the election,what happens after that is kinda irrelevant. The problem is that he has to do it in a way that is credible for the average american. I do think its important for biden to adress this though. In the end the usa benefits just as much from china if not more then the other way around. All the overconsumption in the usa has to be produced somewhere. Its a symbiotic relation but that is not how many americans see it. I dont think it would be smart for biden to start pointing out this symbiosis and that the usa can not function without china producing a large part of their consumption. (it could be made in the usa in theory,but it would come at a much higher cost. The usa can not generate the same output of cheap consumables as china for the same cost) because most americans see it different and well thought out arguments dont really work with the majority of the population. Then the only thing that is left is simply copy trumps message on china or more or less ignore the whole issue. But the issue is important to many voters,it was one of the issues that help trump win in 2016 and trumps china policy over the past years is pretty popular with many americans so i dont think its wise to completely ignore it. | ||
|
Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
NYT had a very extensive interview with him back in December that I quite liked. It's an interesting read 6 months on. It's not a comprehensive policy statement, obviously, but it is revealing. He's relaxed and fairly candid by the point foreign policy comes up. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/01/17/opinion/joe-biden-nytimes-interview.html Jim Dao: You campaigned on your ability to handle a crisis. If China were to send troops and tanks into Hong Kong to violently crack down on peaceful protesters, how would you handle that? Biden: Well, that’s a very, I’m not sure I should answer it on —— JD: Why not? Biden:Let me put it this way. First of all, the first thing I’d do is go to the United Nations. I would introduce resolutions to condemn them for their actions. [ED: Among all the candidates asked this question, Mr. Biden is the only one who offered a detailed plan of action in response to this question]. I would, in fact, try to re-establish the kind of a relationship, when we left, we had with Japan, South Korea, Indonesia and Australia. I would move American warships into the region, like we were trying to do, to take 60 percent of our fleet and have it in Asia. To make it clear to him that he, in fact, is not going to be able to go any further, that there’s a price to pay if he were to do that. + Show Spoiler + I would do the same thing I did when he set up the air identification zone, and I went over to meet with him. And I said, “You’ve got to just understand, we’re not.” [ED: When China established an air identification zone in 2013, igniting tensions with Japan, Mr. Biden visited the region and urged President Xi Jinping to show restraint]. He said, “What do you expect me to do, take it down?” I said, “No, but we’re going to fly through it.” We flew a B-53 through it, F-15s through it to make it clear we’re not playing that game. We are not going to do it. I would spend the time doing what we’ve absolutely shredded. I would get the rest of our allies in the world to join us in dealing with sanctions against China. We make up 15 percent of the world’s economy. There’s another 25 percent that are allies that we have dissed already. They’re wondering who the hell — where we are. I would try to put back together the coalition, and I would, in fact, make it clear what I said to him in my private meetings and they’ve been public: We are a Pacific power. He said, “Why do you say that?” I said, “Because we are a Pacific power, and you would have never had the economic stability you were able to accomplish, but for the fact we, we, the United States, kept the peace.” I would make it very clear there are going to be a price to pay in terms of his economy and in terms of the access to other opportunities that China badly needs. + Show Spoiler + Look, we always talk about China, and there’s an 800-pound gorilla, and what they’re doing. China has more problems than we could ever contemplate. They don’t have enough water. They’re talking about a close to $1 trillion project to turn rivers around. Forty percent to 45 percent of the land is filled with cadmium. They cannot produce crops. They are out now deciding that they’re in a position where they have a million Uighurs in, essentially, jail and re-education camps in the West. They’re in a situation where they’re having trouble figuring out how do they hold on to the Tibetan area without getting into a conflict with India. They have a lot of problems, a lot of problems. We should be making it clear that we’re not going to do anything to accommodate what they’re doing and make it much more difficult for them to engage in how they proceed. It requires diplomacy, requires a show of our resolve that this is where it stops, and it raises a big question about what to do after that. We’ll see what happens. NF: Some said that a move like that against Hong Kong would also threaten Taiwan. Do you see that? Biden:Oh no, I do. I absolutely do think it could. And I think it will do the opposite in Taiwan. I think the Taiwanese government will move to try to be more combative with China than it was before, because that’s all he talked to me about. I’ve spent more time, allegedly, with Xi Jinping than any world leader has before we left office, just because the president wanted me to get to know him. + Show Spoiler + He was the vice president, I was vice president, it wasn’t appropriate for the president. So they tell me, the State Department, I had 25 hours of private dinners with him. For real. He’s not a stupid fellow. But he also, there’s not a democratic, small-D bone in his body. And he’d ask questions like, “Do you really control your military? Do you?” He didn’t control the military. The president didn’t, the party controlled the military. “Do you really? Do governors have any power?” They don’t have any power. That’s why they’re annexing big chunks of — they have no independent authority to do anything. “What is your national security team? What’s the National Security Council do?” I mean, these are the questions. Opposing the CCP requires a network of nations unified against what they're trying to do. Meanwhile, Trump has systematically alienated every ally you ever had. It's absurd to act like Trump is better placed to deal with China. The only thing he's better placed to do is isolate you further, while China builds bridges left and right behind your back. | ||
|
Melliflue
United Kingdom1389 Posts
On August 30 2020 10:24 JimmiC wrote: Whatever happened to Tara Reade? Last I heard her lawyer dropped her and nothing has came from it. Waiting till closer to the election to inflict maximum damage. Or was the "Biden's a rapist" thing spoken too soon? She was dropped by her lawyer after reports that she had lied about her qualifications while employed as an expert witness. That allegation completely ruined her credibility. After that, it was in nobody's interests to publicly talk about Reade's allegations against Biden. There is no benefit for Biden in bringing it back up, and the Republicans/progressives who used it earlier to attack Biden gain nothing from continuing that attack. Since no public figure would ever apologise for jumping to conclusions when attacking Biden (or anybody else), the story quietly disappeared. | ||
|
Trainrunnef
United States601 Posts
| ||
|
Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On August 30 2020 21:53 Trainrunnef wrote: I honestly think Biden's unscripted, bumbling, non policy wonk personality and demeanor is exactly what will give him the edge against Trump in the debates to come. You can't throw numbers and data at Trump to prove your point, you have to beat him at the emotional level and reach out to voters that way, something Hillary clearly didn't have access to. That's what gave candidate Obama the edge when he ran as well. You definitly can as we have seen during that axios interview. "We're lower than the world!". How do you want to debate with someone who believes in his own alternate facts without fact checking him ? | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland27230 Posts
On August 30 2020 21:27 Belisarius wrote: As far as "why hasn't Biden spoken about China yet?", he has, plenty of times. NYT had a very extensive interview with him back in December that I quite liked. It's an interesting read 6 months on. It's not a comprehensive policy statement, obviously, but it is revealing. He's relaxed and fairly candid by the point foreign policy comes up. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/01/17/opinion/joe-biden-nytimes-interview.html Opposing the CCP requires a network of nations unified against what they're trying to do. Meanwhile, Trump has systematically alienated every ally you ever had. It's absurd to act like Trump is better placed to deal with China. The only thing he's better placed to do is isolate you further, while China builds bridges left and right behind your back. Indeed, it’s certainly up front and centre with my biggest gripes with this administration. It’s especially interesting if we contrast China’s political composition and continuity and what advantages that gives them in this domain. The central paradox of these modern forms of nationalist ‘my county first’ sentiment is they almost invariably weaken one’s country’s position. However the failure of such measures to meet their ostensible goals doesn’t seem to trigger a change in approach from their adherents, the failures will be blamed on some other thing. Brexit being a pretty clear non-US example. If Brexit puts the UK in a weaker position in all sorts of areas and the ‘make Britain Great again’ sentiment turns out to be the bollocks as I and many others think, Brexit voters aren’t going to think they were sold a dud, it’s going to be directed at the EU for having the temerity of ‘punishing’ the UK. Of course, people who said from day 1 the idea that you can leave a club and keep just the membership perks you like aren’t going to get a concession on being right on this rather basic concept. It’s amazing how low the bar currently is set than I read that and was initially amazed to hear things like basic understanding, small specific details and vague use of actual figures from Biden. Nothing mindblowing of course but the contrast with how Trump communicates is rather stark. @pmh I mean I get what you’re saying, perhaps a bit of sabre rattling will be politically beneficial for Biden. I think it’s largely pointless without the other stuff you alluded to, it’s a complex problem that requires well thought out solutions. Another factor is China itself. Xi Jingping and that crew aren’t exactly massive fans of the Trump administration and things are largely trying to be put on ice until the election is decided. If Trump’s approach to opposition is rather adversarial, Biden’s is nearly the polar opposite. Historically at times to his and general society’s detriment, Biden’s approach is quite consistently to try and buddy up with people on the other side of the aisle. Perhaps this is the tack a hypothetical President Biden would take, in which case it’s probably not to clever to be slamming China too hard on the campaign trail. While not necessarily a complete impediment to future progress, China tend to be rather sensitive to criticism to say the least. | ||
|
Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8679021/Moment-man-Patriot-Prayer-hat-shot-dead-Portland-amid-clashes-BLM-Trump-fans.html | ||
|
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
| ||
|
Danglars
United States12133 Posts
The thread has probably seen enough in Kenosha. Businesses burned down. Immigrants and minority business owners are furious. That downtown area won't recover for quite some time if you've seen the videos. + Show Spoiler [biz owner attacked] + Protesters in DC, white silence is violence: second incident Also in DC, a mob surrounded Rand Paul after the RNC event. Protesters harassed elderly couples leaving the event. One video DC protesters "We don't get it (justice) burn it down" chant Rand Paul video, agitators struggle with his security/their guns Which brings us to the most recent BLM/left groups violence: Trump supporter and/or Patriot Prayer guy identified by protesters and shot in the street. "We got a Trumper right here" preceded the shooting. + Show Spoiler [violence] + A far left or Antifa crowd later cheered the death, alleging he was a fascist and deserved to die. This happened after Portland's Democratic Mayor bragged about refusing federal help, if any of you are inclined to believe that "Trump's America" will take the blame for this. Also, a BLM leader in DC called for protesters to fight the DC cops, to be "ready to put them in their graves" Two Chicago police officers were shot last night during a traffic stop, and a third officer returned fire, hitting the driver. This is an example scene of why police should be wary during confrontations with possibly armed suspects. These are some of the scenes that are being broadcast across America. Portland, Seattle, Minneapolis, Chicago, DC, Kenosha. Biden has said, in response to questions about whether he will defund the police, that he favors reducing the responsibilities assigned to the police and redirecting some of the funding for police into social services [etc]. Several mayors have refused federal help for ongoing rioting and other violence in their cities. It is incumbent upon the local and state authorities to protect their citizens, or angry citizens will see their impotence and vote accordingly. Biden has since made more powerful statements condemning the violence. Some left-wing figures have alleged that internal Democratic polling showed a need for Biden to more distinctly condemn the ongoing violence. | ||
|
Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
Source: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1238565 Trump says he's planning on visiting Kenosha (seems like a bad idea for everyone, including him, but if he really wants to do it, OK). Federal agents were literally kidnapping people off the street in Portland and refusing to identify themselves. There's no way they could have stayed without even MORE violence than we just saw - it's been relatively peaceful since they left until now (not saying entirely peaceful, but there was much less violence according to all the actual residents and all non-biased media). Not sure what cops getting killed in traffic stops has to do with the rest of your post. The Patriot Prayer killing I would call an unfortunate/intended consequence of Kyle Rittenhouse killing BLM protestors - it's what he and his group wanted to happen, for violence to escalate. PP aren't nazis, but they do tend to appear in the same areas as them, so I can see how it could get mixed up. | ||
|
Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On August 31 2020 03:55 Danglars wrote: Another shit show in Portland. You may remember that far from protests ending as Trump withdrew his federal law enforcement, it moved to police stations. They have been set on fire. There was video of protesters stopping up streets and pulling the drivers out to beat them unconscious. Riots were declared 12 times since the federal police left in August alone (maybe higher now), whereas the May & July only 10 total. Seattle too had an incident with protesters setting fires in a police complex while trying to cement the exit doors. Pretty bad. Violence is also continuing in Minneapolis: https://twitter.com/TheStuffOfMemes/status/1299069765017890819 The thread has probably seen enough in Kenosha. Businesses burned down. Immigrants and minority business owners are furious. That downtown area won't recover for quite some time if you've seen the videos. + Show Spoiler [biz owner attacked] + Protesters in DC, white silence is violence: https://twitter.com/KunkleFredrick/status/1298344285079838720 second incident Also in DC, a mob surrounded Rand Paul after the RNC event. Protesters harassed elderly couples leaving the event. One video DC protesters "We don't get it (justice) burn it down" chant Rand Paul video, agitators struggle with his security/their guns Which brings us to the most recent BLM/left groups violence: Trump supporter and/or Patriot Prayer guy identified by protesters and shot in the street. "We got a Trumper right here" preceded the shooting. + Show Spoiler [violence] + A far left or Antifa crowd later cheered the death, alleging he was a fascist and deserved to die. This happened after Portland's Democratic Mayor bragged about refusing federal help, if any of you are inclined to believe that "Trump's America" will take the blame for this. Also, a BLM leader in DC called for protesters to fight the DC cops, to be "ready to put them in their graves" Two Chicago police officers were shot last night during a traffic stop, and a third officer returned fire, hitting the driver. This is an example scene of why police should be wary during confrontations with possibly armed suspects. These are some of the scenes that are being broadcast across America. Portland, Seattle, Minneapolis, Chicago, DC, Kenosha. Biden has said, in response to questions about whether he will defund the police, that he favors reducing the responsibilities assigned to the police and redirecting some of the funding for police into social services [etc]. Several mayors have refused federal help for ongoing rioting and other violence in their cities. It is incumbent upon the local and state authorities to protect their citizens, or angry citizens will see their impotence and vote accordingly. Biden has since made more powerful statements condemning the violence. Some left-wing figures have alleged that internal Democratic polling showed a need for Biden to more distinctly condemn the ongoing violence. I'm almost surprised that trump hasn't federalized the national guard in some of these states and . That would seem to be the traditional response in a situation like this. I guess it's viewed as too risky or something right now. | ||
|
Gorsameth
Netherlands22487 Posts
On August 31 2020 04:51 Doodsmack wrote: If he stops the riots they stop being something he can attack Democrats with.I'm almost surprised that trump hasn't federalized the national guard in some of these states and . That would seem to be the traditional response in a situation like this. I guess it's viewed as too risky or something right now. | ||
| ||
