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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On August 30 2020 03:48 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2020 03:30 Danglars wrote:On August 30 2020 02:32 Wombat_NornIron wrote:On August 30 2020 01:10 Danglars wrote:On August 29 2020 18:21 Wombat_NornIron wrote:On August 29 2020 12:50 Danglars wrote:
It's much better for Biden to not go in thinking he's far and away the favorite, and to campaign heavily in the swing states Trump carried on low margins. When his internal polling showed he was falling in the battleground states, he started to give several live statements condemning the violence. But he would've done better to show he recognizes the challenges with China's posture and ethnic cleansing of the Uyghurs. The "not Trump" line just isn't good enough. He's also in a weird place blaming Trump's America for the violence, while having served in the administration that had Ferguson, Baltimore, Dallas. Would he? I mean that’s something to be condemned sure, is it that impactful electorally? Would not be a fan of the Uighur situation myself at all but is that an issue that particularly resonates? China's a major foreign policy hot zone, whether or not you think Trump is going to do well on that subject. Biden mentioned China just once in regards to dependence on foreign manufacturing. That ignorance of signalling something strong on China is political malpractice and I'll entertain anyone suggesting this or that advisor stripped it from his speech. Just a few of the more visible aspects to China in America. Buzzfeed investigations has a new longform piece on the construction of internment camps meant to house tens of thousands. The videos of Uyghur detainees with shaved heads and blindfolds sitting unmasked in groups was widely seen. The forced sterilizations and abortions are reported in Western press, amounting to a genocide of a minority of citizens. China is even now on a campaign to retaliate against Hong Kong for their very visible mass protests. The communist party also suppressed and spread disinformation to the WHO in the early stages of the worst pandemic in modern history. Americans saw these things on viral videos and on the news, but somehow it didn't rate in Biden's first pitch to the American people to become their next president. Read and respond to the articles if you have any further questions. This is relatively common knowledge, least in these parts. Outside of the manufacturing/jobs element that Biden and outside the Trump tent is it an issue that particular resonates that strongly in America is what I was asking? I don’t really know from my current transatlantic prism, Trump fans seem rather obsessed with all things China but unsure about the wider populace. I mean ethnic genocide, mass surveillance and arrests, and the early coverup of a massive pandemic tends to cut across people that normally don't pay attention to politics. Obsession might have been true about the types that focus on Chinese trade. The outlook now is more one asking what's obsessive about caring about the internment, re-education, and forced sterilization and abortions? Some things deserve attention and Biden's campaign and advisors have been lacking. If this had been done to a minority population in Northern Ireland, do you think it would be obsessive to make it a primary focus for the rest of the world? Yes. Americans ONLY care because china has considerable economic power currently and some of their increases came at a direct cost to american power (manufacturing moving from US to China). That's obvious based on how little anyone has ever given a shit about genocides in poor African countries (I think one is actually going on right now and I don't even know which country it is in anymore, having only seen it in the news once in the past 2 years). It's almost always whataboutism when it gets mentioned in the context of US politics- "US has kids in cages, but China has Uighur camps". If one happened in NI, I would hope the US stopped being a military ally with GB and accept that nothing to stop it could be done short of an extremely costly war, especially after Brexit. As trade partners our economies would be too intertwined for economic sanctions to work (similar to China). We already aren't military allies with China. Trump's trade tactics weren't strictly a bad idea, but the execution has been pretty ineffective - and his stated purpose has NOT been for Uighurs, it has been for bringing American jobs back (impossible, as those are now automated), and being the lone nation doing it means that China simply increased their prices, made carefully targeted retaliatory tariffs (that targeted red districts exclusively) and accepted the small economic hit. The only way to actually stop it outside of a war is diplomacy and soft power, two things the Trump administration does NOT understand. It would take a multinational agreement large enough to impact China's economy for them to listen, and Trump has thrown the chances of those in the toilet (see: Iran deal, TPP).
I think both you and Biden underestimate how much Americans respond to Uyghur genocide and state action against Hong Kong. I am benefited politically from this oversight, so I am happy for it to continue.
Show nested quote +On August 30 2020 03:43 Danglars wrote:On August 30 2020 03:11 Zambrah wrote:On August 30 2020 01:49 Gorgonoth wrote:
Look as someone who has known and tended to support police officers, I have no problem saying what I think is pretty much indisputable; that the police system in the United States needs a large overhaul. There needs to be better training, better psychological evaluations, and combating of implicit biases. The pattern of lethal force as a first response is horrible. They've got to be better at crisis management and deescalating tense situations. I understand those who say it's a hard and increasingly thankless job, but we need police reform, and we need to create more mutual trust between officers and the communities.
No one should be against peaceful, nonviolent protests of this issue. However, this is not all that has happened. Looting was widespread, I witnessed it myself in Philadelphia, these demonstrations became very violent and dangerous. There was not a respect for property, there was chaos and pandemonium. This was a moment for discourse and it was overshadowed by opportunist rioters. This is a breakdown of law and order, its documented that crime surged in many cities. I get the feeling like this may not matter to you, but for the "bad politics" swing voter in PA, It will. I think we've had enough discourse, this problem has been happening for long enough for us to consider discourse to have happened and for society to collectively decided police murdering black people is just okay. This is like having your throat slit and the doctor who is supposed to be stitching you up going,"You know, you're getting blood all over my nice coat, I think you need to stop bleeding all over the place if you want me to sew your throat up." It's equivalent to saying progress doesn't matter as long as we can find videos of police responding poorly across the US. If people can ignore the decline in black deaths at the hands of police, and decide society is just ok with black deaths, then you missed the entire BLM rise (and fall if you look at polling) and all the changes with respect to body cams, no-knock raids, and the rest. If people were fine, BLM would never have gotten its first wave of support. The rhetoric is for change, but the actions correlate to a group that decides change is impossible and the current society must be brought down with violence first. It's a meme on the right that resonates right now: They don't care about black lives if it's David Dorn at a pawn shop, or inner cities with less police to defend black lives calling 911, or anything besides white officers shooting black men. I'm starting to think reform is impossible, because the real energy is on organizing protests and riots as means of retribution to whatever whites they think are guilty of letting the system produce such police forces. Look at the Kenosha and Portland marches through affluent white neighborhoods demanding the homeowners come out and join them. I have to agree with you partially, that one side increasingly believes "discourse [has] happened" and that side has given up on the Democratic means of redress. Kenosha doesn't have bodycams and the proposed reform to require bodycams and additional civilian oversight died in the house (as with all things these days)
I hope that trend reverses, but that is going to be increasingly difficult in the wake of the senseless violence and destroyed businesses. I wish the new wave of protests had been focused on pressuring the leadership to do stuff like bodycams and increased training. This should be under threat of dissolution and re-institution of the police department to get around whatever inertia the police union and mayor have.
You could see in the precipitating event that officers had opportunity to restrain the suspect (a woman had called police because her boyfriend was at her house and was unwelcome there), but failed to adequately do so.
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On August 30 2020 03:43 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2020 03:11 Zambrah wrote:On August 30 2020 01:49 Gorgonoth wrote:
Look as someone who has known and tended to support police officers, I have no problem saying what I think is pretty much indisputable; that the police system in the United States needs a large overhaul. There needs to be better training, better psychological evaluations, and combating of implicit biases. The pattern of lethal force as a first response is horrible. They've got to be better at crisis management and deescalating tense situations. I understand those who say it's a hard and increasingly thankless job, but we need police reform, and we need to create more mutual trust between officers and the communities.
No one should be against peaceful, nonviolent protests of this issue. However, this is not all that has happened. Looting was widespread, I witnessed it myself in Philadelphia, these demonstrations became very violent and dangerous. There was not a respect for property, there was chaos and pandemonium. This was a moment for discourse and it was overshadowed by opportunist rioters. This is a breakdown of law and order, its documented that crime surged in many cities. I get the feeling like this may not matter to you, but for the "bad politics" swing voter in PA, It will. I think we've had enough discourse, this problem has been happening for long enough for us to consider discourse to have happened and for society to collectively decided police murdering black people is just okay. This is like having your throat slit and the doctor who is supposed to be stitching you up going,"You know, you're getting blood all over my nice coat, I think you need to stop bleeding all over the place if you want me to sew your throat up." It's equivalent to saying progress doesn't matter as long as we can find videos of police responding poorly across the US. If people can ignore the decline in black deaths at the hands of police, and decide society is just ok with black deaths, then you missed the entire BLM rise (and fall if you look at polling) and all the changes with respect to body cams, no-knock raids, and the rest. If people were fine, BLM would never have gotten its first wave of support. The rhetoric is for change, but the actions correlate to a group that decides change is impossible and the current society must be brought down with violence first. It's a meme on the right that resonates right now: They don't care about black lives if it's David Dorn at a pawn shop, or inner cities with less police to defend black lives calling 911, or anything besides white officers shooting black men. I'm starting to think reform is impossible, because the real energy is on organizing protests and riots as means of retribution to whatever whites they think are guilty of letting the system produce such police forces. Look at the Kenosha and Portland marches through affluent white neighborhoods demanding the homeowners come out and join them. I have to agree with you partially, that one side increasingly believes "discourse [has] happened" and that side has given up on the Democratic means of redress.
Reform is impossible because the powers that have the power TO reform choose not to. When the lack of reform is black people dying completely and utterly senselessly to cops with the self control of a toddler then OBVIOUSLY youre going to get fucking riots, because decent human beings have this notion that a human life is more important than property. If it was your family being senselessly gunned down you might be able to extend some empathy or anger towards the ridiculous status of policing in the US.
Democratic solutions take too much time, as time passes more people are senselessly murdered and, Time. Has. Fucking. Passed. This is not a problem that should be considered on a "how do we solve this over the next century," as long as people are being literally murdered its a problem that has to be addressed NOW. It won't happen peacefully because people will always find a way to deflect it away, "oh hes disrespecting the flag by doing the thing he asked a literal armed forces member about protesting in the most respectful way!" "oh, look, now they're being all protest-y, you know, they should just go and vote instead of making all this noise!" "wow, now some of them are BREAKING STUFF, you know you should just protest peacefully thats the way to change!"
The idea that a peaceful solution to black people being murdered by police exists in a tolerable time frame is idiotic.
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On August 30 2020 04:05 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2020 03:48 Nevuk wrote:On August 30 2020 03:30 Danglars wrote:On August 30 2020 02:32 Wombat_NornIron wrote:On August 30 2020 01:10 Danglars wrote:On August 29 2020 18:21 Wombat_NornIron wrote:On August 29 2020 12:50 Danglars wrote:
It's much better for Biden to not go in thinking he's far and away the favorite, and to campaign heavily in the swing states Trump carried on low margins. When his internal polling showed he was falling in the battleground states, he started to give several live statements condemning the violence. But he would've done better to show he recognizes the challenges with China's posture and ethnic cleansing of the Uyghurs. The "not Trump" line just isn't good enough. He's also in a weird place blaming Trump's America for the violence, while having served in the administration that had Ferguson, Baltimore, Dallas. Would he? I mean that’s something to be condemned sure, is it that impactful electorally? Would not be a fan of the Uighur situation myself at all but is that an issue that particularly resonates? China's a major foreign policy hot zone, whether or not you think Trump is going to do well on that subject. Biden mentioned China just once in regards to dependence on foreign manufacturing. That ignorance of signalling something strong on China is political malpractice and I'll entertain anyone suggesting this or that advisor stripped it from his speech. Just a few of the more visible aspects to China in America. Buzzfeed investigations has a new longform piece on the construction of internment camps meant to house tens of thousands. The videos of Uyghur detainees with shaved heads and blindfolds sitting unmasked in groups was widely seen. The forced sterilizations and abortions are reported in Western press, amounting to a genocide of a minority of citizens. China is even now on a campaign to retaliate against Hong Kong for their very visible mass protests. The communist party also suppressed and spread disinformation to the WHO in the early stages of the worst pandemic in modern history. Americans saw these things on viral videos and on the news, but somehow it didn't rate in Biden's first pitch to the American people to become their next president. Read and respond to the articles if you have any further questions. This is relatively common knowledge, least in these parts. Outside of the manufacturing/jobs element that Biden and outside the Trump tent is it an issue that particular resonates that strongly in America is what I was asking? I don’t really know from my current transatlantic prism, Trump fans seem rather obsessed with all things China but unsure about the wider populace. I mean ethnic genocide, mass surveillance and arrests, and the early coverup of a massive pandemic tends to cut across people that normally don't pay attention to politics. Obsession might have been true about the types that focus on Chinese trade. The outlook now is more one asking what's obsessive about caring about the internment, re-education, and forced sterilization and abortions? Some things deserve attention and Biden's campaign and advisors have been lacking. If this had been done to a minority population in Northern Ireland, do you think it would be obsessive to make it a primary focus for the rest of the world? Yes. Americans ONLY care because china has considerable economic power currently and some of their increases came at a direct cost to american power (manufacturing moving from US to China). That's obvious based on how little anyone has ever given a shit about genocides in poor African countries (I think one is actually going on right now and I don't even know which country it is in anymore, having only seen it in the news once in the past 2 years). It's almost always whataboutism when it gets mentioned in the context of US politics- "US has kids in cages, but China has Uighur camps". If one happened in NI, I would hope the US stopped being a military ally with GB and accept that nothing to stop it could be done short of an extremely costly war, especially after Brexit. As trade partners our economies would be too intertwined for economic sanctions to work (similar to China). We already aren't military allies with China. Trump's trade tactics weren't strictly a bad idea, but the execution has been pretty ineffective - and his stated purpose has NOT been for Uighurs, it has been for bringing American jobs back (impossible, as those are now automated), and being the lone nation doing it means that China simply increased their prices, made carefully targeted retaliatory tariffs (that targeted red districts exclusively) and accepted the small economic hit. The only way to actually stop it outside of a war is diplomacy and soft power, two things the Trump administration does NOT understand. It would take a multinational agreement large enough to impact China's economy for them to listen, and Trump has thrown the chances of those in the toilet (see: Iran deal, TPP). I think both you and Biden underestimate how much Americans respond to Uyghur genocide and state action against Hong Kong. I am benefited politically from this oversight, so I am happy for it to continue.
Fair enough. I do think those issues should be separated. Hong Kong is taken much more seriously than the Uighur's issue, for some reason. Probably because there's a lot less photographic evidence, and many people simply don't care unless they have proof in front of their eyes.
The complaints about HK have been mostly aimed at corporations rather than the US government - it's not really like the US/China were particularly friendly even under Obama or Bush. Blizzard, on the other hand...
I hope that trend reverses, but that is going to be increasingly difficult in the wake of the senseless violence and destroyed businesses. I wish the new wave of protests had been focused on pressuring the leadership to do stuff like bodycams and increased training. This should be under threat of dissolution and re-institution of the police department to get around whatever inertia the police union and mayor have.
You could see in the precipitating event that officers had opportunity to restrain the suspect (a woman had called police because her boyfriend was at her house and was unwelcome there), but failed to adequately do so.
I think that it's the unions and mayors etc. pointing at the violence in an attempt to avoid reforms - the dissolution/re-instution were never in question in 2014 after Ferguson (which was by all accounts what that dept should have faced). The people I do feel really bad for are the actual business owners affected, as they're usually innocent bystanders.
Riots are always unpopular and going to be condemned by anyone in power, but they are the inevitable result when nothing changes after years of peaceful protest. This is the MLK/Malcolm X debate all over again, you know? My personal conclusion is that it takes both - the credible threat of violence to instigate change and the diplomatic peaceful option to credit as the reason and the person to negotiate with.
I do agree that focusing on race so much may be a mistake, though it can't be denied as an influence. (The police abuse their power against poor whites, too, but it's less enraging and newsworthy)
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MLK jr died FAR more unpopular than Trump is today.
The idea that a peaceful solution to black people being murdered by police exists in a tolerable time frame is idiotic. Smartest thing I've read here in a while (whole post is good though).
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On August 30 2020 04:18 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2020 03:43 Danglars wrote:On August 30 2020 03:11 Zambrah wrote:On August 30 2020 01:49 Gorgonoth wrote:
Look as someone who has known and tended to support police officers, I have no problem saying what I think is pretty much indisputable; that the police system in the United States needs a large overhaul. There needs to be better training, better psychological evaluations, and combating of implicit biases. The pattern of lethal force as a first response is horrible. They've got to be better at crisis management and deescalating tense situations. I understand those who say it's a hard and increasingly thankless job, but we need police reform, and we need to create more mutual trust between officers and the communities.
No one should be against peaceful, nonviolent protests of this issue. However, this is not all that has happened. Looting was widespread, I witnessed it myself in Philadelphia, these demonstrations became very violent and dangerous. There was not a respect for property, there was chaos and pandemonium. This was a moment for discourse and it was overshadowed by opportunist rioters. This is a breakdown of law and order, its documented that crime surged in many cities. I get the feeling like this may not matter to you, but for the "bad politics" swing voter in PA, It will. I think we've had enough discourse, this problem has been happening for long enough for us to consider discourse to have happened and for society to collectively decided police murdering black people is just okay. This is like having your throat slit and the doctor who is supposed to be stitching you up going,"You know, you're getting blood all over my nice coat, I think you need to stop bleeding all over the place if you want me to sew your throat up." It's equivalent to saying progress doesn't matter as long as we can find videos of police responding poorly across the US. If people can ignore the decline in black deaths at the hands of police, and decide society is just ok with black deaths, then you missed the entire BLM rise (and fall if you look at polling) and all the changes with respect to body cams, no-knock raids, and the rest. If people were fine, BLM would never have gotten its first wave of support. The rhetoric is for change, but the actions correlate to a group that decides change is impossible and the current society must be brought down with violence first. It's a meme on the right that resonates right now: They don't care about black lives if it's David Dorn at a pawn shop, or inner cities with less police to defend black lives calling 911, or anything besides white officers shooting black men. I'm starting to think reform is impossible, because the real energy is on organizing protests and riots as means of retribution to whatever whites they think are guilty of letting the system produce such police forces. Look at the Kenosha and Portland marches through affluent white neighborhoods demanding the homeowners come out and join them. I have to agree with you partially, that one side increasingly believes "discourse [has] happened" and that side has given up on the Democratic means of redress. Reform is impossible because the powers that have the power TO reform choose not to. When the lack of reform is black people dying completely and utterly senselessly to cops with the self control of a toddler then OBVIOUSLY youre going to get fucking riots, because decent human beings have this notion that a human life is more important than property. If it was your family being senselessly gunned down you might be able to extend some empathy or anger towards the ridiculous status of policing in the US. Democratic solutions take too much time, as time passes more people are senselessly murdered and, Time. Has. Fucking. Passed. This is not a problem that should be considered on a "how do we solve this over the next century," as long as people are being literally murdered its a problem that has to be addressed NOW. It won't happen peacefully because people will always find a way to deflect it away, "oh hes disrespecting the flag by doing the thing he asked a literal armed forces member about protesting in the most respectful way!" "oh, look, now they're being all protest-y, you know, they should just go and vote instead of making all this noise!" "wow, now some of them are BREAKING STUFF, you know you should just protest peacefully thats the way to change!" The idea that a peaceful solution to black people being murdered by police exists in a tolerable time frame is idiotic.
Reform is not impossible. Reform happened in Camden, its been undertaken in cities like Boston which have demonstrably better police departments. But at the heart of your post is a deeply flawed logic I think. You are seeing the issue in an extremely black and white way. Black people are killed by police officers so, therefore, there is no peaceful progress that can be made?? What are you even talking about at this point? More white people are shot (raw statistics not proportionally) by police, so I guess ill break into the apple store and riot and attack cops because WHITE PEOPLE ARE BEING MURDERED. What you are entertaining could be used to justify almost any violent act in the name of any ideology.
The idea that a peaceful solution to black people being murdered by police exists in a tolerable time frame is idiotic
This is idiotic. Not all black people killed by police officers are done so unjustly. Many are killed unjustly though and in an increasing number of those cases police are held accountable.
Do police officers kill American citizens unjustly? Yes. Does this affect blacks the most? I believe so, although not every case is easy to prove. The great leap you make though is in thinking that because that is true that violence, destruction of property in reaction to this is justified. It isn't true, both things are wrong.
Your statement isn't bold it's just a platitude that offers no solution. Calling for the razing of social order is one of the easiest things to do because its based in an imaginary world where the mob which you are justifying will create a perfect order with no injustice. It isnt going to happen.
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On August 30 2020 05:04 Gorgonoth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2020 04:18 Zambrah wrote:On August 30 2020 03:43 Danglars wrote:On August 30 2020 03:11 Zambrah wrote:On August 30 2020 01:49 Gorgonoth wrote:
Look as someone who has known and tended to support police officers, I have no problem saying what I think is pretty much indisputable; that the police system in the United States needs a large overhaul. There needs to be better training, better psychological evaluations, and combating of implicit biases. The pattern of lethal force as a first response is horrible. They've got to be better at crisis management and deescalating tense situations. I understand those who say it's a hard and increasingly thankless job, but we need police reform, and we need to create more mutual trust between officers and the communities.
No one should be against peaceful, nonviolent protests of this issue. However, this is not all that has happened. Looting was widespread, I witnessed it myself in Philadelphia, these demonstrations became very violent and dangerous. There was not a respect for property, there was chaos and pandemonium. This was a moment for discourse and it was overshadowed by opportunist rioters. This is a breakdown of law and order, its documented that crime surged in many cities. I get the feeling like this may not matter to you, but for the "bad politics" swing voter in PA, It will. I think we've had enough discourse, this problem has been happening for long enough for us to consider discourse to have happened and for society to collectively decided police murdering black people is just okay. This is like having your throat slit and the doctor who is supposed to be stitching you up going,"You know, you're getting blood all over my nice coat, I think you need to stop bleeding all over the place if you want me to sew your throat up." It's equivalent to saying progress doesn't matter as long as we can find videos of police responding poorly across the US. If people can ignore the decline in black deaths at the hands of police, and decide society is just ok with black deaths, then you missed the entire BLM rise (and fall if you look at polling) and all the changes with respect to body cams, no-knock raids, and the rest. If people were fine, BLM would never have gotten its first wave of support. The rhetoric is for change, but the actions correlate to a group that decides change is impossible and the current society must be brought down with violence first. It's a meme on the right that resonates right now: They don't care about black lives if it's David Dorn at a pawn shop, or inner cities with less police to defend black lives calling 911, or anything besides white officers shooting black men. I'm starting to think reform is impossible, because the real energy is on organizing protests and riots as means of retribution to whatever whites they think are guilty of letting the system produce such police forces. Look at the Kenosha and Portland marches through affluent white neighborhoods demanding the homeowners come out and join them. I have to agree with you partially, that one side increasingly believes "discourse [has] happened" and that side has given up on the Democratic means of redress. Reform is impossible because the powers that have the power TO reform choose not to. When the lack of reform is black people dying completely and utterly senselessly to cops with the self control of a toddler then OBVIOUSLY youre going to get fucking riots, because decent human beings have this notion that a human life is more important than property. If it was your family being senselessly gunned down you might be able to extend some empathy or anger towards the ridiculous status of policing in the US. Democratic solutions take too much time, as time passes more people are senselessly murdered and, Time. Has. Fucking. Passed. This is not a problem that should be considered on a "how do we solve this over the next century," as long as people are being literally murdered its a problem that has to be addressed NOW. It won't happen peacefully because people will always find a way to deflect it away, "oh hes disrespecting the flag by doing the thing he asked a literal armed forces member about protesting in the most respectful way!" "oh, look, now they're being all protest-y, you know, they should just go and vote instead of making all this noise!" "wow, now some of them are BREAKING STUFF, you know you should just protest peacefully thats the way to change!" The idea that a peaceful solution to black people being murdered by police exists in a tolerable time frame is idiotic. Reform is not impossible. Reform happened in Camden, its been undertaken in cities like Boston which have demonstrably better police departments. But at the heart of your post is a deeply flawed logic I think. You are seeing the issue in an extremely black and white way. Black people are killed by police officers so, therefore, there is no peaceful progress that can be made?? What are you even talking about at this point? More white people are shot (raw statistics not proportionally) by police, so I guess ill break into the apple store and riot and attack cops because WHITE PEOPLE ARE BEING MURDERED. What you are entertaining could be used to justify almost any violent act in the name of any ideology. Show nested quote +The idea that a peaceful solution to black people being murdered by police exists in a tolerable time frame is idiotic This is idiotic. Not all black people killed by police officers are done so unjustly. Many are killed unjustly though and in an increasing number of those cases police are held accountable. Do police officers kill American citizens unjustly? Yes. Does this affect blacks the most? I believe so, although not every case is easy to prove. The great leap you make though is in thinking that because that is true that violence, destruction of property in reaction to this is justified. It isn't true, both things are wrong. Your statement isn't bold it's just a platitude that offers no solution. Calling for the razing of social order is one of the easiest things to do because its based in an imaginary world where the mob which you are justifying will create a perfect order with no injustice. It isnt going to happen.
No, the deeply flawed logic of this discussion is completely forgetting that time is a factor in this, that if it Happens Eventually its enough because it happened. How many people need to die in the meantime?
And yes, you should also be very upset when police murder white people, our fucking police force shouldn't be murdering people for no good reason (and they DO murder people OFTEN for NO GOOD REASON.)
The easy solution is to sit back and say, "we'll get to it! Now all of you sit down and wait for it, we'll get there eventually!" these are people who are either at risk of being senseless murdered or actually give a shit about people who are at risk of being senselessly murdered, I 100% believe their outrage is justified.
The idea that the urgency of this is something that requires me to make logical leaps just shows the withered holes in the American conscience.
The point isnt that reform is impossible, the POINT is that "reform" as we've seen it in the US takes a very long time, and in that very long time people continue to die. This pace is unacceptable and it's clear that without civil unrest it will continue to take a very long fucking time and during that very long fucking time people are going to continue being murdered.
The bottom line for concern should be concern for the people being murdered.
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On August 30 2020 05:30 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2020 05:17 Zambrah wrote:On August 30 2020 05:04 Gorgonoth wrote:On August 30 2020 04:18 Zambrah wrote:On August 30 2020 03:43 Danglars wrote:On August 30 2020 03:11 Zambrah wrote:On August 30 2020 01:49 Gorgonoth wrote:
Look as someone who has known and tended to support police officers, I have no problem saying what I think is pretty much indisputable; that the police system in the United States needs a large overhaul. There needs to be better training, better psychological evaluations, and combating of implicit biases. The pattern of lethal force as a first response is horrible. They've got to be better at crisis management and deescalating tense situations. I understand those who say it's a hard and increasingly thankless job, but we need police reform, and we need to create more mutual trust between officers and the communities.
No one should be against peaceful, nonviolent protests of this issue. However, this is not all that has happened. Looting was widespread, I witnessed it myself in Philadelphia, these demonstrations became very violent and dangerous. There was not a respect for property, there was chaos and pandemonium. This was a moment for discourse and it was overshadowed by opportunist rioters. This is a breakdown of law and order, its documented that crime surged in many cities. I get the feeling like this may not matter to you, but for the "bad politics" swing voter in PA, It will. I think we've had enough discourse, this problem has been happening for long enough for us to consider discourse to have happened and for society to collectively decided police murdering black people is just okay. This is like having your throat slit and the doctor who is supposed to be stitching you up going,"You know, you're getting blood all over my nice coat, I think you need to stop bleeding all over the place if you want me to sew your throat up." It's equivalent to saying progress doesn't matter as long as we can find videos of police responding poorly across the US. If people can ignore the decline in black deaths at the hands of police, and decide society is just ok with black deaths, then you missed the entire BLM rise (and fall if you look at polling) and all the changes with respect to body cams, no-knock raids, and the rest. If people were fine, BLM would never have gotten its first wave of support. The rhetoric is for change, but the actions correlate to a group that decides change is impossible and the current society must be brought down with violence first. It's a meme on the right that resonates right now: They don't care about black lives if it's David Dorn at a pawn shop, or inner cities with less police to defend black lives calling 911, or anything besides white officers shooting black men. I'm starting to think reform is impossible, because the real energy is on organizing protests and riots as means of retribution to whatever whites they think are guilty of letting the system produce such police forces. Look at the Kenosha and Portland marches through affluent white neighborhoods demanding the homeowners come out and join them. I have to agree with you partially, that one side increasingly believes "discourse [has] happened" and that side has given up on the Democratic means of redress. Reform is impossible because the powers that have the power TO reform choose not to. When the lack of reform is black people dying completely and utterly senselessly to cops with the self control of a toddler then OBVIOUSLY youre going to get fucking riots, because decent human beings have this notion that a human life is more important than property. If it was your family being senselessly gunned down you might be able to extend some empathy or anger towards the ridiculous status of policing in the US. Democratic solutions take too much time, as time passes more people are senselessly murdered and, Time. Has. Fucking. Passed. This is not a problem that should be considered on a "how do we solve this over the next century," as long as people are being literally murdered its a problem that has to be addressed NOW. It won't happen peacefully because people will always find a way to deflect it away, "oh hes disrespecting the flag by doing the thing he asked a literal armed forces member about protesting in the most respectful way!" "oh, look, now they're being all protest-y, you know, they should just go and vote instead of making all this noise!" "wow, now some of them are BREAKING STUFF, you know you should just protest peacefully thats the way to change!" The idea that a peaceful solution to black people being murdered by police exists in a tolerable time frame is idiotic. Reform is not impossible. Reform happened in Camden, its been undertaken in cities like Boston which have demonstrably better police departments. But at the heart of your post is a deeply flawed logic I think. You are seeing the issue in an extremely black and white way. Black people are killed by police officers so, therefore, there is no peaceful progress that can be made?? What are you even talking about at this point? More white people are shot (raw statistics not proportionally) by police, so I guess ill break into the apple store and riot and attack cops because WHITE PEOPLE ARE BEING MURDERED. What you are entertaining could be used to justify almost any violent act in the name of any ideology. The idea that a peaceful solution to black people being murdered by police exists in a tolerable time frame is idiotic This is idiotic. Not all black people killed by police officers are done so unjustly. Many are killed unjustly though and in an increasing number of those cases police are held accountable. Do police officers kill American citizens unjustly? Yes. Does this affect blacks the most? I believe so, although not every case is easy to prove. The great leap you make though is in thinking that because that is true that violence, destruction of property in reaction to this is justified. It isn't true, both things are wrong. Your statement isn't bold it's just a platitude that offers no solution. Calling for the razing of social order is one of the easiest things to do because its based in an imaginary world where the mob which you are justifying will create a perfect order with no injustice. It isnt going to happen. No, the deeply flawed logic of this discussion is completely forgetting that time is a factor in this, that if it Happens Eventually its enough because it happened. How many people need to die in the meantime? And yes, you should also be very upset when police murder white people, our fucking police force shouldn't be murdering people for no good reason (and they DO murder people OFTEN for NO GOOD REASON.) The easy solution is to sit back and say, "we'll get to it! Now all of you sit down and wait for it, we'll get there eventually!" these are people who are either at risk of being senseless murdered or actually give a shit about people who are at risk of being senselessly murdered, I 100% believe their outrage is justified. The idea that the urgency of this is something that requires me to make logical leaps just shows the withered holes in the American conscience. The point isnt that reform is impossible, the POINT is that "reform" as we've seen it in the US takes a very long time, and in that very long time people continue to die. This pace is unacceptable and it's clear that without civil unrest it will continue to take a very long fucking time and during that very long fucking time people are going to continue being murdered. The bottom line for concern should be concern for the people being murdered. Are you pro or against gun control like is done in other western democracies?
I'd REALLY rather we didn't have access to weapons designed specifically to efficiently murder human beings.
I am softer on like, hunting rifles and shotguns.
I'll also admit I feel a little more sympathetic towards gun ownership lately due to the unrest. Theres a point where the state is likely enough to kill you without reason that having a gun in that situation might be appealing.
As a general rule/in an ideal world though, I'd rather a world without guns save basic hunting rifles and the like that serve non-war-murder-y purposes.
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People do not often die by police or while in police custody. Draw the rhetoric back in several degrees. It’s too high and police perform too poorly to not want legislative fixes, but the rates are still so low that “often” is an outright lie. That kind of rhetoric would have people believe that thousands die every year.
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Nate Silver has a lot of good analysis on the race today on twitter, as far as where it stands. Basically, Biden needs to be up by 6 or more to be assured of victory - below that a polling error in Trump's direction and Biden can lose. It's also a race where it will be either a total blowout for Biden or a super close Trump win, due to how the population is distributed.
Kenosha/NBA protests have been extremely popular:
How to interpret National polls -
Also, Trump seems to have gotten a very small convention bounce (2 points) based on the first poll (Nate seems to think that the virtual conventions will probably matter a lot less)
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On August 30 2020 05:49 Danglars wrote:
People do not often die by police or while in police custody. Draw the rhetoric back in several degrees. It’s too high and police perform too poorly to not want legislative fixes, but the rates are still so low that “often” is an outright lie. That kind of rhetoric would have people believe that thousands die every year.
We have different definitions of often.
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On August 30 2020 05:49 Danglars wrote:
People do not often die by police or while in police custody. Draw the rhetoric back in several degrees. It’s too high and police perform too poorly to not want legislative fixes, but the rates are still so low that “often” is an outright lie. That kind of rhetoric would have people believe that thousands die every year. It depends on what you consider often.
is 10% more then in other countries often? 100%, 1000%?
Everything is relative.
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Northern Ireland26758 Posts
On August 30 2020 03:30 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2020 02:32 Wombat_NornIron wrote:On August 30 2020 01:10 Danglars wrote:On August 29 2020 18:21 Wombat_NornIron wrote:On August 29 2020 12:50 Danglars wrote:
It's much better for Biden to not go in thinking he's far and away the favorite, and to campaign heavily in the swing states Trump carried on low margins. When his internal polling showed he was falling in the battleground states, he started to give several live statements condemning the violence. But he would've done better to show he recognizes the challenges with China's posture and ethnic cleansing of the Uyghurs. The "not Trump" line just isn't good enough. He's also in a weird place blaming Trump's America for the violence, while having served in the administration that had Ferguson, Baltimore, Dallas. Would he? I mean that’s something to be condemned sure, is it that impactful electorally? Would not be a fan of the Uighur situation myself at all but is that an issue that particularly resonates? China's a major foreign policy hot zone, whether or not you think Trump is going to do well on that subject. Biden mentioned China just once in regards to dependence on foreign manufacturing. That ignorance of signalling something strong on China is political malpractice and I'll entertain anyone suggesting this or that advisor stripped it from his speech. Just a few of the more visible aspects to China in America. Buzzfeed investigations has a new longform piece on the construction of internment camps meant to house tens of thousands. The videos of Uyghur detainees with shaved heads and blindfolds sitting unmasked in groups was widely seen. The forced sterilizations and abortions are reported in Western press, amounting to a genocide of a minority of citizens. China is even now on a campaign to retaliate against Hong Kong for their very visible mass protests. The communist party also suppressed and spread disinformation to the WHO in the early stages of the worst pandemic in modern history. Americans saw these things on viral videos and on the news, but somehow it didn't rate in Biden's first pitch to the American people to become their next president. Read and respond to the articles if you have any further questions. This is relatively common knowledge, least in these parts. Outside of the manufacturing/jobs element that Biden and outside the Trump tent is it an issue that particular resonates that strongly in America is what I was asking? I don’t really know from my current transatlantic prism, Trump fans seem rather obsessed with all things China but unsure about the wider populace. I mean ethnic genocide, mass surveillance and arrests, and the early coverup of a massive pandemic tends to cut across people that normally don't pay attention to politics. Obsession might have been true about the types that focus on Chinese trade. The outlook now is more one asking what's obsessive about caring about the internment, re-education, and forced sterilization and abortions? Some things deserve attention and Biden's campaign and advisors have been lacking. If this had been done to a minority population in Northern Ireland, do you think it would be obsessive to make it a primary focus for the rest of the world?
For the record I wasn’t referring to you when I said ‘Trump fans’.
Care about it sure, what do people want done about it? The Gulf States do repugnant things but hey we need their oil, we’re too dependent on Chinese manufacturing to be able to exert much leverage.
Americans seem to want the impossible, Brits too. All the benefits of globalised capitalism but without any of the downsides. You can’t just turn the tap off when that cheap labour overseas, cheap electronics etc starts to be inconvenient to your native populace.
Well you can, but you have to more fundamentally look at how the world’s economic interactions are organised and I don’t think people want to do. This doesn’t mean it’s not politically important to go after China, I just think it’s fucking stupid within the current framework of discussion of trade wars etc.
The time for leverage against China was 10/20/30 years ago or whatever. Instead the West at large was rather content with the wee marriage of convenience until it wasn’t.
It is worth noting here that, while the nature of the conflict was different Northern Ireland both did have issues and the US actively working as an intermediary between various factions including a large world power in the UK and hey, shit has improved a lot. We’re pretty fond of Bill Clinton over here for reasons surrounding that.
We’re also fucking tiny, and America has a general fondness for the Irish for pretty obvious reasons.
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On August 30 2020 03:32 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2020 03:11 Starlightsun wrote:On August 29 2020 18:18 pmh wrote:
"one of his trump cards was overall economic performance. Well that’s down the shitter now"
He can still use it as an argument,and he also did so during his acceptence speech.
The economy was doing well before (though not all americans did benefit equally from the growth) and the epidemic isnt his fault. I also dont think the situation with the epidemic would have been any better with a democrat as president. It also does come down to the individual states and some things are pretty much out of control.
So trump says he can get the economy out of the slump faster and better then the biden once the epidemic starts getting less bad. And seeing the 3 years before i think this is a somewhat credible argument that people are willing to believe.
This way he can turn the economic crisis into his advantage,or at least lessen the damage. I dont think the economic crisis will have that much of a direct effect on the election after all. It would have been easier for trump if everything was still doing well but since the cause is pretty much an outside factor beyond anyones control i doubt it will hurt him all that much. I would like to know how much of that good economy he can actually claim credit for. Yes the pandemic wasn't his fault, but was the good economy his doing or something he just inherited and managed not to fuck up? Zero. The pattern for the last few presidents has been that a republican fucked up the economy, then a democrat got it moving upwards again, and the next republican took credit for it while blaming the democrat for the upfucking the previous republican did.
Very simplistic way of looking at it, considering Bill Clinton's repeal of the Glass-Steagall act in 1999 and the ensuing mass deregulation of the banking sector was one of the major causes of the 2008 financial crisis.Something Sanders mentioned several times.
Both parties have been poor economic managers.
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On August 30 2020 03:30 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2020 02:32 Wombat_NornIron wrote:On August 30 2020 01:10 Danglars wrote:On August 29 2020 18:21 Wombat_NornIron wrote:On August 29 2020 12:50 Danglars wrote:
It's much better for Biden to not go in thinking he's far and away the favorite, and to campaign heavily in the swing states Trump carried on low margins. When his internal polling showed he was falling in the battleground states, he started to give several live statements condemning the violence. But he would've done better to show he recognizes the challenges with China's posture and ethnic cleansing of the Uyghurs. The "not Trump" line just isn't good enough. He's also in a weird place blaming Trump's America for the violence, while having served in the administration that had Ferguson, Baltimore, Dallas. Would he? I mean that’s something to be condemned sure, is it that impactful electorally? Would not be a fan of the Uighur situation myself at all but is that an issue that particularly resonates? China's a major foreign policy hot zone, whether or not you think Trump is going to do well on that subject. Biden mentioned China just once in regards to dependence on foreign manufacturing. That ignorance of signalling something strong on China is political malpractice and I'll entertain anyone suggesting this or that advisor stripped it from his speech. Just a few of the more visible aspects to China in America. Buzzfeed investigations has a new longform piece on the construction of internment camps meant to house tens of thousands. The videos of Uyghur detainees with shaved heads and blindfolds sitting unmasked in groups was widely seen. The forced sterilizations and abortions are reported in Western press, amounting to a genocide of a minority of citizens. China is even now on a campaign to retaliate against Hong Kong for their very visible mass protests. The communist party also suppressed and spread disinformation to the WHO in the early stages of the worst pandemic in modern history. Americans saw these things on viral videos and on the news, but somehow it didn't rate in Biden's first pitch to the American people to become their next president. Read and respond to the articles if you have any further questions. This is relatively common knowledge, least in these parts. Outside of the manufacturing/jobs element that Biden and outside the Trump tent is it an issue that particular resonates that strongly in America is what I was asking? I don’t really know from my current transatlantic prism, Trump fans seem rather obsessed with all things China but unsure about the wider populace. I mean ethnic genocide, mass surveillance and arrests, and the early coverup of a massive pandemic tends to cut across people that normally don't pay attention to politics. Obsession might have been true about the types that focus on Chinese trade. The outlook now is more one asking what's obsessive about caring about the internment, re-education, and forced sterilization and abortions? Some things deserve attention and Biden's campaign and advisors have been lacking. If this had been done to a minority population in Northern Ireland, do you think it would be obsessive to make it a primary focus for the rest of the world?
Geez spare us your bleeding heart about the Uyghurs in China Danglars. Or does it extend also to the immense suffering caused by our incarcerating people at our southern border, breaking up families and deporting people to their deaths? For no real reason other than that they are poor and not white? Do your concerned voters also care about the mass starvation and disease outbreaks in Yemen and the role we play in that with our profitable arms sales to Saudi Arabia?
Even if you are honestly concerned about the victims of the CCP's brutality, going lone cowboy as Trump has done is just setting us back from being able to apply real pressure. It's beyond retarded to alienate ourselves from all our allies and international goodwill to adopt a "strategy" of unilateral tariffs and sanctions imposed on impulse. If Biden does nothing but reintegrate us back into the international community then that is far worse for the CCP than Trump's hamfistedness.
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On August 30 2020 06:20 Wombat_NornIron wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2020 03:30 Danglars wrote:On August 30 2020 02:32 Wombat_NornIron wrote:On August 30 2020 01:10 Danglars wrote:On August 29 2020 18:21 Wombat_NornIron wrote:On August 29 2020 12:50 Danglars wrote:
It's much better for Biden to not go in thinking he's far and away the favorite, and to campaign heavily in the swing states Trump carried on low margins. When his internal polling showed he was falling in the battleground states, he started to give several live statements condemning the violence. But he would've done better to show he recognizes the challenges with China's posture and ethnic cleansing of the Uyghurs. The "not Trump" line just isn't good enough. He's also in a weird place blaming Trump's America for the violence, while having served in the administration that had Ferguson, Baltimore, Dallas. Would he? I mean that’s something to be condemned sure, is it that impactful electorally? Would not be a fan of the Uighur situation myself at all but is that an issue that particularly resonates? China's a major foreign policy hot zone, whether or not you think Trump is going to do well on that subject. Biden mentioned China just once in regards to dependence on foreign manufacturing. That ignorance of signalling something strong on China is political malpractice and I'll entertain anyone suggesting this or that advisor stripped it from his speech. Just a few of the more visible aspects to China in America. Buzzfeed investigations has a new longform piece on the construction of internment camps meant to house tens of thousands. The videos of Uyghur detainees with shaved heads and blindfolds sitting unmasked in groups was widely seen. The forced sterilizations and abortions are reported in Western press, amounting to a genocide of a minority of citizens. China is even now on a campaign to retaliate against Hong Kong for their very visible mass protests. The communist party also suppressed and spread disinformation to the WHO in the early stages of the worst pandemic in modern history. Americans saw these things on viral videos and on the news, but somehow it didn't rate in Biden's first pitch to the American people to become their next president. Read and respond to the articles if you have any further questions. This is relatively common knowledge, least in these parts. Outside of the manufacturing/jobs element that Biden and outside the Trump tent is it an issue that particular resonates that strongly in America is what I was asking? I don’t really know from my current transatlantic prism, Trump fans seem rather obsessed with all things China but unsure about the wider populace. I mean ethnic genocide, mass surveillance and arrests, and the early coverup of a massive pandemic tends to cut across people that normally don't pay attention to politics. Obsession might have been true about the types that focus on Chinese trade. The outlook now is more one asking what's obsessive about caring about the internment, re-education, and forced sterilization and abortions? Some things deserve attention and Biden's campaign and advisors have been lacking. If this had been done to a minority population in Northern Ireland, do you think it would be obsessive to make it a primary focus for the rest of the world? For the record I wasn’t referring to you when I said ‘Trump fans’. Care about it sure, what do people want done about it? The Gulf States do repugnant things but hey we need their oil, we’re too dependent on Chinese manufacturing to be able to exert much leverage. Americans seem to want the impossible, Brits too. All the benefits of globalised capitalism but without any of the downsides. You can’t just turn the tap off when that cheap labour overseas, cheap electronics etc starts to be inconvenient to your native populace. Well you can, but you have to more fundamentally look at how the world’s economic interactions are organised and I don’t think people want to do. This doesn’t mean it’s not politically important to go after China, I just think it’s fucking stupid within the current framework of discussion of trade wars etc. The time for leverage against China was 10/20/30 years ago or whatever. Instead the West at large was rather content with the wee marriage of convenience until it wasn’t. It is worth noting here that, while the nature of the conflict was different Northern Ireland both did have issues and the US actively working as an intermediary between various factions including a large world power in the UK and hey, shit has improved a lot. We’re pretty fond of Bill Clinton over here for reasons surrounding that. We’re also fucking tiny, and America has a general fondness for the Irish for pretty obvious reasons.
I think we have a disconnect. If you agree Americans care about it because political incarceration and genocides are pretty big deals, then why shouldn't a prospective candidate use his first major party address to show it's actually on his radar? The jarring thing is that it was entirely missing from the speech, not that people differ on what to do.
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On August 30 2020 07:06 Starlightsun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2020 03:30 Danglars wrote:On August 30 2020 02:32 Wombat_NornIron wrote:On August 30 2020 01:10 Danglars wrote:On August 29 2020 18:21 Wombat_NornIron wrote:On August 29 2020 12:50 Danglars wrote:
It's much better for Biden to not go in thinking he's far and away the favorite, and to campaign heavily in the swing states Trump carried on low margins. When his internal polling showed he was falling in the battleground states, he started to give several live statements condemning the violence. But he would've done better to show he recognizes the challenges with China's posture and ethnic cleansing of the Uyghurs. The "not Trump" line just isn't good enough. He's also in a weird place blaming Trump's America for the violence, while having served in the administration that had Ferguson, Baltimore, Dallas. Would he? I mean that’s something to be condemned sure, is it that impactful electorally? Would not be a fan of the Uighur situation myself at all but is that an issue that particularly resonates? China's a major foreign policy hot zone, whether or not you think Trump is going to do well on that subject. Biden mentioned China just once in regards to dependence on foreign manufacturing. That ignorance of signalling something strong on China is political malpractice and I'll entertain anyone suggesting this or that advisor stripped it from his speech. Just a few of the more visible aspects to China in America. Buzzfeed investigations has a new longform piece on the construction of internment camps meant to house tens of thousands. The videos of Uyghur detainees with shaved heads and blindfolds sitting unmasked in groups was widely seen. The forced sterilizations and abortions are reported in Western press, amounting to a genocide of a minority of citizens. China is even now on a campaign to retaliate against Hong Kong for their very visible mass protests. The communist party also suppressed and spread disinformation to the WHO in the early stages of the worst pandemic in modern history. Americans saw these things on viral videos and on the news, but somehow it didn't rate in Biden's first pitch to the American people to become their next president. Read and respond to the articles if you have any further questions. This is relatively common knowledge, least in these parts. Outside of the manufacturing/jobs element that Biden and outside the Trump tent is it an issue that particular resonates that strongly in America is what I was asking? I don’t really know from my current transatlantic prism, Trump fans seem rather obsessed with all things China but unsure about the wider populace. I mean ethnic genocide, mass surveillance and arrests, and the early coverup of a massive pandemic tends to cut across people that normally don't pay attention to politics. Obsession might have been true about the types that focus on Chinese trade. The outlook now is more one asking what's obsessive about caring about the internment, re-education, and forced sterilization and abortions? Some things deserve attention and Biden's campaign and advisors have been lacking. If this had been done to a minority population in Northern Ireland, do you think it would be obsessive to make it a primary focus for the rest of the world? Geez spare us your bleeding heart about the Uyghurs in China Danglars. Or does it extend also to the immense suffering caused by our incarcerating people at our southern border, breaking up families and deporting people to their deaths? For no real reason other than that they are poor and not white? Do your concerned voters also care about the mass starvation and disease outbreaks in Yemen and the role we play in that with our profitable arms sales to Saudi Arabia? Even if you are honestly concerned about the victims of the CCP's brutality, going lone cowboy as Trump has done is just setting us back from being able to apply real pressure. It's beyond retarded to alienate ourselves from all our allies and international goodwill to adopt a "strategy" of unilateral tariffs and sanctions imposed on impulse. If Biden does nothing but reintegrate us back into the international community then that is far worse for the CCP than Trump's hamfistedness.
People trying to get into a country and a system that was designed for illegal adult day laborers? The media literally used Obama photos to attack Trump before realizing the timestamps.
Whataboutism aside, you've managed to avoid talking about Biden and the Chinese issues I raised, so I hardly know if you care or if you think Biden should care. I want that debate to be center stage, and not to go totally ignored by one major party candidate. Maybe then we can get on to Iranian proxy wars in Yemen, Syria, and Lebanon, and whether or not Saudi Arabia is a necessary ally in the region, or just too bad to obtain a net foreign policy benefit.
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On August 30 2020 05:36 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2020 05:30 JimmiC wrote:On August 30 2020 05:17 Zambrah wrote:On August 30 2020 05:04 Gorgonoth wrote:On August 30 2020 04:18 Zambrah wrote:On August 30 2020 03:43 Danglars wrote:On August 30 2020 03:11 Zambrah wrote:On August 30 2020 01:49 Gorgonoth wrote:
Look as someone who has known and tended to support police officers, I have no problem saying what I think is pretty much indisputable; that the police system in the United States needs a large overhaul. There needs to be better training, better psychological evaluations, and combating of implicit biases. The pattern of lethal force as a first response is horrible. They've got to be better at crisis management and deescalating tense situations. I understand those who say it's a hard and increasingly thankless job, but we need police reform, and we need to create more mutual trust between officers and the communities.
No one should be against peaceful, nonviolent protests of this issue. However, this is not all that has happened. Looting was widespread, I witnessed it myself in Philadelphia, these demonstrations became very violent and dangerous. There was not a respect for property, there was chaos and pandemonium. This was a moment for discourse and it was overshadowed by opportunist rioters. This is a breakdown of law and order, its documented that crime surged in many cities. I get the feeling like this may not matter to you, but for the "bad politics" swing voter in PA, It will. I think we've had enough discourse, this problem has been happening for long enough for us to consider discourse to have happened and for society to collectively decided police murdering black people is just okay. This is like having your throat slit and the doctor who is supposed to be stitching you up going,"You know, you're getting blood all over my nice coat, I think you need to stop bleeding all over the place if you want me to sew your throat up." It's equivalent to saying progress doesn't matter as long as we can find videos of police responding poorly across the US. If people can ignore the decline in black deaths at the hands of police, and decide society is just ok with black deaths, then you missed the entire BLM rise (and fall if you look at polling) and all the changes with respect to body cams, no-knock raids, and the rest. If people were fine, BLM would never have gotten its first wave of support. The rhetoric is for change, but the actions correlate to a group that decides change is impossible and the current society must be brought down with violence first. It's a meme on the right that resonates right now: They don't care about black lives if it's David Dorn at a pawn shop, or inner cities with less police to defend black lives calling 911, or anything besides white officers shooting black men. I'm starting to think reform is impossible, because the real energy is on organizing protests and riots as means of retribution to whatever whites they think are guilty of letting the system produce such police forces. Look at the Kenosha and Portland marches through affluent white neighborhoods demanding the homeowners come out and join them. I have to agree with you partially, that one side increasingly believes "discourse [has] happened" and that side has given up on the Democratic means of redress. Reform is impossible because the powers that have the power TO reform choose not to. When the lack of reform is black people dying completely and utterly senselessly to cops with the self control of a toddler then OBVIOUSLY youre going to get fucking riots, because decent human beings have this notion that a human life is more important than property. If it was your family being senselessly gunned down you might be able to extend some empathy or anger towards the ridiculous status of policing in the US. Democratic solutions take too much time, as time passes more people are senselessly murdered and, Time. Has. Fucking. Passed. This is not a problem that should be considered on a "how do we solve this over the next century," as long as people are being literally murdered its a problem that has to be addressed NOW. It won't happen peacefully because people will always find a way to deflect it away, "oh hes disrespecting the flag by doing the thing he asked a literal armed forces member about protesting in the most respectful way!" "oh, look, now they're being all protest-y, you know, they should just go and vote instead of making all this noise!" "wow, now some of them are BREAKING STUFF, you know you should just protest peacefully thats the way to change!" The idea that a peaceful solution to black people being murdered by police exists in a tolerable time frame is idiotic. Reform is not impossible. Reform happened in Camden, its been undertaken in cities like Boston which have demonstrably better police departments. But at the heart of your post is a deeply flawed logic I think. You are seeing the issue in an extremely black and white way. Black people are killed by police officers so, therefore, there is no peaceful progress that can be made?? What are you even talking about at this point? More white people are shot (raw statistics not proportionally) by police, so I guess ill break into the apple store and riot and attack cops because WHITE PEOPLE ARE BEING MURDERED. What you are entertaining could be used to justify almost any violent act in the name of any ideology. The idea that a peaceful solution to black people being murdered by police exists in a tolerable time frame is idiotic This is idiotic. Not all black people killed by police officers are done so unjustly. Many are killed unjustly though and in an increasing number of those cases police are held accountable. Do police officers kill American citizens unjustly? Yes. Does this affect blacks the most? I believe so, although not every case is easy to prove. The great leap you make though is in thinking that because that is true that violence, destruction of property in reaction to this is justified. It isn't true, both things are wrong. Your statement isn't bold it's just a platitude that offers no solution. Calling for the razing of social order is one of the easiest things to do because its based in an imaginary world where the mob which you are justifying will create a perfect order with no injustice. It isnt going to happen. No, the deeply flawed logic of this discussion is completely forgetting that time is a factor in this, that if it Happens Eventually its enough because it happened. How many people need to die in the meantime? And yes, you should also be very upset when police murder white people, our fucking police force shouldn't be murdering people for no good reason (and they DO murder people OFTEN for NO GOOD REASON.) The easy solution is to sit back and say, "we'll get to it! Now all of you sit down and wait for it, we'll get there eventually!" these are people who are either at risk of being senseless murdered or actually give a shit about people who are at risk of being senselessly murdered, I 100% believe their outrage is justified. The idea that the urgency of this is something that requires me to make logical leaps just shows the withered holes in the American conscience. The point isnt that reform is impossible, the POINT is that "reform" as we've seen it in the US takes a very long time, and in that very long time people continue to die. This pace is unacceptable and it's clear that without civil unrest it will continue to take a very long fucking time and during that very long fucking time people are going to continue being murdered. The bottom line for concern should be concern for the people being murdered. Are you pro or against gun control like is done in other western democracies? I'd REALLY rather we didn't have access to weapons designed specifically to efficiently murder human beings. I am softer on like, hunting rifles and shotguns. I'll also admit I feel a little more sympathetic towards gun ownership lately due to the unrest. Theres a point where the state is likely enough to kill you without reason that having a gun in that situation might be appealing. As a general rule/in an ideal world though, I'd rather a world without guns save basic hunting rifles and the like that serve non-war-murder-y purposes.
You’ll have to explain how having a gun is “appealing.” It only seems you are more likely to get killed by a gun, either another gun or your own.
I have to admit that I have been finding the profound lack of numeracy in the general population to be disheartening. In some sense it would have been more rational for you to say that you found gun ownership appealing because murders have spiked in metropolitan areas recently. The case would be even stronger if you were non-white and lived in an urban center since the majority of murders in places like Chicago and NYC are murders of non-white people. But then you’d end up sounding like a white supremacist ...
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