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Bringing coal back was popular with a certain group of voters in some states,those who lost their jobs in the coal industry. Not all voters are californian liberals who,s greatest concern is global warming. Maga always does well in a patriotic nation like the usa and trump didnt invent the slogan,it was reagan who did use it for the first time i think in one of his speeches.
"I do think Biden is in a much, much better spot than Hillary ever was purely because he has >50% of the voters so far in polls. It's really hard to beat that."
Beeing in a much better spot then hillary yes thats for sure but right now i think its pretty much 50/50 and it could go either way though i am leaning towards trump having slightly better chances at the moment. (which can easily change in the 3 months still to go).
I do worry a bit for what will happen after the election,since the usa society is extremely polarized at the moment. Maybe things will calm down and best would probably be if one side wins with a considerable margin. But if things are very close there will be a lot of unrest no matter which side wins though biden winning i think will overall be better (not when it comes to policy,but only looking at the social unrest and polarization).
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The last few months of unrest have created a strong narrative for Trump to play. Don't underestimate that. Middle-class voters, swing voters in the rust belt are not sympathetic at all towards the looting, rioting, and breakdown of law and order that has been shoehorned onto the police reform/racial injustice protests. It was hilarious to see Tucker Carlson call violent Antifa rioters "Joe Biden supporters" and even though that's a laughable description, it will be effective political messaging. Vote for Biden if you want America to look more like CHAZ, vote for Trump if you back law and order.
I do think Joe Biden is a more popular candidate than Hillary was. But if he were to not show at a debate it would be interpreted as a serious omission of guilt; that he's mentally not up to the task. Hillary did poorly in the debates, her uncanny forced bare teethed smile whenever Trump would speak was memorable, but Trump also didnt have a stellar performance, so it was mostly a wash. Joe Biden's debate performance has a moderately high ceiling ( I think he could turn it into a large boost for his campaign) but a hell of a low floor.
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Honestly, if you guys manage to elect Trump AGAIN, you absolutely deserve what you get. It was already absurd to elect that clown once.
It is kind of strange to see how US politics keeps on getting more absurd, stupid and ridiculous. I already thought it was stupid to elect GW Bush once. Then he started two wars and failed completely, and you managed to elect him again.
Afterwards it felt like maybe that was a one-off of stupidity due to 9/11. But then you actually elected Trump. Donald Trump. Who was very, very obviously an incompetent, arrogant, corrupt asshole with absolutely zero redeeming qualities, and who never even tried to hide it. So i guess it is totally possible that you manage to elect him again. Despite the fact that every sane person on the face of the earth can see how bad he is as a president (just look at how he dealt with Corona), and that you turn your country into the laughingstock of the world by electing idiots and clowns like that.
But i am not going to make any predictions. Clearly american elections have nothing to do with even a semblance of sanity. I was absolutely sure in 2016 that there was no way you would elect someone as obviously unfit for the office of president as Trump. And yet you still managed to do that. Sure, the broken US election system helped by helping the person with less votes to win, but he still got nearly half of the votes. In a sane country, he should not be higher than maybe 10 %.
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Don't underestimate that. Middle-class voters, swing voters in the rust belt are not sympathetic at all towards the looting, rioting, and breakdown of law and order that has been shoehorned onto the police reform/racial injustice protests.
Do people ever consider that these voters have bad politics that shouldn't be appealed to for the sake of Pyrrhic victories?
If Democrats need the uprising to stop in order to beat Trump they might as well just prepare for Trump's second term now.
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On August 29 2020 23:53 Simberto wrote:
Honestly, if you guys manage to elect Trump AGAIN, you absolutely deserve what you get. It was already absurd to elect that clown once.
It is kind of strange to see how US politics keeps on getting more absurd, stupid and ridiculous. I already thought it was stupid to elect GW Bush once. Then he started two wars and failed completely, and you managed to elect him again.
Afterwards it felt like maybe that was a one-off of stupidity due to 9/11. But then you actually elected Trump. Donald Trump. Who was very, very obviously an incompetent, arrogant, corrupt asshole with absolutely zero redeeming qualities, and who never even tried to hide it. So i guess it is totally possible that you manage to elect him again. Despite the fact that every sane person on the face of the earth can see how bad he is as a president (just look at how he dealt with Corona), and that you turn your country into the laughingstock of the world by electing idiots and clowns like that.
But i am not going to make any predictions. Clearly american elections have nothing to do with even a semblance of sanity. I was absolutely sure in 2016 that there was no way you would elect someone as obviously unfit for the office of president as Trump. And yet you still managed to do that. Sure, the broken US election system helped by helping the person with less votes to win, but he still got nearly half of the votes. In a sane country, he should not be higher than maybe 10 %.
It does get stupider every time.
I hope one day Americans stop rewarding these progressively more idiotic candidates by choosing them as our two choices.
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On August 29 2020 23:53 Simberto wrote:
Honestly, if you guys manage to elect Trump AGAIN, you absolutely deserve what you get. It was already absurd to elect that clown once.
It is kind of strange to see how US politics keeps on getting more absurd, stupid and ridiculous. I already thought it was stupid to elect GW Bush once. Then he started two wars and failed completely, and you managed to elect him again.
Afterwards it felt like maybe that was a one-off of stupidity due to 9/11. But then you actually elected Trump. Donald Trump. Who was very, very obviously an incompetent, arrogant, corrupt asshole with absolutely zero redeeming qualities, and who never even tried to hide it. So i guess it is totally possible that you manage to elect him again. Despite the fact that every sane person on the face of the earth can see how bad he is as a president (just look at how he dealt with Corona), and that you turn your country into the laughingstock of the world by electing idiots and clowns like that.
But i am not going to make any predictions. Clearly american elections have nothing to do with even a semblance of sanity. I was absolutely sure in 2016 that there was no way you would elect someone as obviously unfit for the office of president as Trump. And yet you still managed to do that. Sure, the broken US election system helped by helping the person with less votes to win, but he still got nearly half of the votes. In a sane country, he should not be higher than maybe 10 %.
George W Bush shouldn't feel like a one-off if you mark stupidity and insanity going back to his election. It should spark ideas that Americans rate many strange (from a European context) and different values higher, and the people just muttering insanity and fascism over and over are just politically misinformed.
The whole part of "zero redeeming qualities" just sounds like political invective. I think manifesting anger towards the results of different choices is a fine option if you're blowing off steam, but it's a poor choice if understanding why people vote the way they do is at all a priority for you. I've gone over some variations of my top-16 or top-20 reasons why Trump was the best choice in the 2016 election all over this thread, and most aren't accepted or believed by people that think differently. I understand some of the reasons why that happens. I also think it's fine for people to ignore the reasons why they lose some elections, make up their own set of reasons that are generally derogatory to some groups, and just celebrate with their pals every time one of their preferred candidates ascends to the throne once against. Elections generally swing back and forth from Republican to Democrat every few years so you will never long be unable to state the good reasons why your guy won.
Since I want to be a little conciliatory here given the situation, I thought both eventual candidates had no business being the two choices for 2016 way back in mid 2015. I have very little criticism for people that looked at both and stayed home. The calculus involved in getting up to vote for the least worst never favored Clinton for me, but was bad enough to make not voting a second attractive option. I'm critical of the quality of the second best choice along with the quality of the best choice.
I'll leave you with an article by Andrew Sullivan, a huge critic of Trump (and someone who himself presaged Trump's election when he wanted medical records from Palin for the rumor that Trig was not her son). The Trap The Democrats Walked Right Into, with that great quote, “The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”
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On August 29 2020 18:21 Wombat_NornIron wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2020 12:50 Danglars wrote:
It's much better for Biden to not go in thinking he's far and away the favorite, and to campaign heavily in the swing states Trump carried on low margins. When his internal polling showed he was falling in the battleground states, he started to give several live statements condemning the violence. But he would've done better to show he recognizes the challenges with China's posture and ethnic cleansing of the Uyghurs. The "not Trump" line just isn't good enough. He's also in a weird place blaming Trump's America for the violence, while having served in the administration that had Ferguson, Baltimore, Dallas. Would he? I mean that’s something to be condemned sure, is it that impactful electorally? Would not be a fan of the Uighur situation myself at all but is that an issue that particularly resonates?
China's a major foreign policy hot zone, whether or not you think Trump is going to do well on that subject. Biden mentioned China just once in regards to dependence on foreign manufacturing. That ignorance of signalling something strong on China is political malpractice and I'll entertain anyone suggesting this or that advisor stripped it from his speech.
Just a few of the more visible aspects to China in America. Buzzfeed investigations has a new longform piece on the construction of internment camps meant to house tens of thousands. The videos of Uyghur detainees with shaved heads and blindfolds sitting unmasked in groups was widely seen. The forced sterilizations and abortions are reported in Western press, amounting to a genocide of a minority of citizens. China is even now on a campaign to retaliate against Hong Kong for their very visible mass protests. The communist party also suppressed and spread disinformation to the WHO in the early stages of the worst pandemic in modern history. Americans saw these things on viral videos and on the news, but somehow it didn't rate in Biden's first pitch to the American people to become their next president.
Read and respond to the articles if you have any further questions.
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Northern Ireland26756 Posts
On August 30 2020 00:15 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote + Don't underestimate that. Middle-class voters, swing voters in the rust belt are not sympathetic at all towards the looting, rioting, and breakdown of law and order that has been shoehorned onto the police reform/racial injustice protests. Do people ever consider that these voters have bad politics that shouldn't be appealed to for the sake of Pyrrhic victories? If Democrats need the uprising to stop in order to beat Trump they might as well just prepare for Trump's second term now.
This thread aside, my engagements elsewhere on the ‘the left are turning away sympathy and handing Trump a tool to weaponise’ re looting etc. Who are these people being flipped and turned off?
I’m sure the person that supported police reform and now doesn’t exists, not an individual I’ve encountered on my travels mind.
Even the framing of it in terms of ‘law and order’ rhetoric is patently absurd given the police operating as they do is as big a law and order issue as they come.
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Look as someone who has known and tended to support police officers, I have no problem saying what I think is pretty much indisputable; that the police system in the United States needs a large overhaul. There needs to be better training, better psychological evaluations, and combating of implicit biases. The pattern of lethal force as a first response is horrible. They've got to be better at crisis management and deescalating tense situations. I understand those who say it's a hard and increasingly thankless job, but we need police reform, and we need to create more mutual trust between officers and the communities.
No one should be against peaceful, nonviolent protests of this issue. However, this is not all that has happened. Looting was widespread, I witnessed it myself in Philadelphia, these demonstrations became very violent and dangerous. There was not a respect for property, there was chaos and pandemonium. This was a moment for discourse and it was overshadowed by opportunist rioters. This is a breakdown of law and order, its documented that crime surged in many cities. I get the feeling like this may not matter to you, but for the "bad politics" swing voter in PA, It will.
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Northern Ireland26756 Posts
On August 30 2020 01:10 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2020 18:21 Wombat_NornIron wrote:On August 29 2020 12:50 Danglars wrote:
It's much better for Biden to not go in thinking he's far and away the favorite, and to campaign heavily in the swing states Trump carried on low margins. When his internal polling showed he was falling in the battleground states, he started to give several live statements condemning the violence. But he would've done better to show he recognizes the challenges with China's posture and ethnic cleansing of the Uyghurs. The "not Trump" line just isn't good enough. He's also in a weird place blaming Trump's America for the violence, while having served in the administration that had Ferguson, Baltimore, Dallas. Would he? I mean that’s something to be condemned sure, is it that impactful electorally? Would not be a fan of the Uighur situation myself at all but is that an issue that particularly resonates? China's a major foreign policy hot zone, whether or not you think Trump is going to do well on that subject. Biden mentioned China just once in regards to dependence on foreign manufacturing. That ignorance of signalling something strong on China is political malpractice and I'll entertain anyone suggesting this or that advisor stripped it from his speech. Just a few of the more visible aspects to China in America. Buzzfeed investigations has a new longform piece on the construction of internment camps meant to house tens of thousands. The videos of Uyghur detainees with shaved heads and blindfolds sitting unmasked in groups was widely seen. The forced sterilizations and abortions are reported in Western press, amounting to a genocide of a minority of citizens. China is even now on a campaign to retaliate against Hong Kong for their very visible mass protests. The communist party also suppressed and spread disinformation to the WHO in the early stages of the worst pandemic in modern history. Americans saw these things on viral videos and on the news, but somehow it didn't rate in Biden's first pitch to the American people to become their next president. Read and respond to the articles if you have any further questions.
This is relatively common knowledge, least in these parts. Outside of the manufacturing/jobs element that Biden and outside the Trump tent is it an issue that particular resonates that strongly in America is what I was asking? I don’t really know from my current transatlantic prism, Trump fans seem rather obsessed with all things China but unsure about the wider populace.
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Northern Ireland26756 Posts
On August 30 2020 01:35 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2020 01:21 Wombat_NornIron wrote:On August 30 2020 00:15 GreenHorizons wrote: Don't underestimate that. Middle-class voters, swing voters in the rust belt are not sympathetic at all towards the looting, rioting, and breakdown of law and order that has been shoehorned onto the police reform/racial injustice protests. Do people ever consider that these voters have bad politics that shouldn't be appealed to for the sake of Pyrrhic victories? If Democrats need the uprising to stop in order to beat Trump they might as well just prepare for Trump's second term now. This thread aside, my engagements elsewhere on the ‘the left are turning away sympathy and handing Trump a tool to weaponise’ re looting etc. Who are these people being flipped and turned off? I’m sure the person that supported police reform and now doesn’t exists, not an individual I’ve encountered on my travels mind. Even the framing of it in terms of ‘law and order’ rhetoric is patently absurd given the police operating as they do is as big a law and order issue as they come. I think it is a fine line for the independents in the US. Many support the message but not the destruction. When you consider how the Trump campaign was able to weaponize the Caravans from the south that could only be stopped by a wall, you start to realize that logic and thoughtfulness are not that important to a huge part of America. The big change between then and now is I think some people thought, we need someone different to get things done. And since Trump has only made things worse I could see Biden "return to normalcy" convince some of those same independents.
I consider candidate Trump a different thing entirely from President Trump. Some of the atypical nature of his run and all, yes give the outsider a shot, he makes deals yadda yadda.
Given how he’s governed thus far, and also isn’t running against say a Sanders level platform, are potential independents going Trump again not just capital i Republicans really? Which is fine, some I assume are good people but what is the point in courting that cohort?
Would seem to me much more an election of galvanising existing voting blocs to turn out than be too concerned with undecideds.
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On August 29 2020 18:18 pmh wrote:
"one of his trump cards was overall economic performance. Well that’s down the shitter now"
He can still use it as an argument,and he also did so during his acceptence speech.
The economy was doing well before (though not all americans did benefit equally from the growth) and the epidemic isnt his fault. I also dont think the situation with the epidemic would have been any better with a democrat as president. It also does come down to the individual states and some things are pretty much out of control.
So trump says he can get the economy out of the slump faster and better then the biden once the epidemic starts getting less bad. And seeing the 3 years before i think this is a somewhat credible argument that people are willing to believe.
This way he can turn the economic crisis into his advantage,or at least lessen the damage. I dont think the economic crisis will have that much of a direct effect on the election after all. It would have been easier for trump if everything was still doing well but since the cause is pretty much an outside factor beyond anyones control i doubt it will hurt him all that much.
I would like to know how much of that good economy he can actually claim credit for. Yes the pandemic wasn't his fault, but was the good economy his doing or something he just inherited and managed not to fuck up?
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On August 30 2020 01:49 Gorgonoth wrote:
Look as someone who has known and tended to support police officers, I have no problem saying what I think is pretty much indisputable; that the police system in the United States needs a large overhaul. There needs to be better training, better psychological evaluations, and combating of implicit biases. The pattern of lethal force as a first response is horrible. They've got to be better at crisis management and deescalating tense situations. I understand those who say it's a hard and increasingly thankless job, but we need police reform, and we need to create more mutual trust between officers and the communities.
No one should be against peaceful, nonviolent protests of this issue. However, this is not all that has happened. Looting was widespread, I witnessed it myself in Philadelphia, these demonstrations became very violent and dangerous. There was not a respect for property, there was chaos and pandemonium. This was a moment for discourse and it was overshadowed by opportunist rioters. This is a breakdown of law and order, its documented that crime surged in many cities. I get the feeling like this may not matter to you, but for the "bad politics" swing voter in PA, It will.
I think we've had enough discourse, this problem has been happening for long enough for us to consider discourse to have happened and for society to collectively decided police murdering black people is just okay.
This is like having your throat slit and the doctor who is supposed to be stitching you up going,"You know, you're getting blood all over my nice coat, I think you need to stop bleeding all over the place if you want me to sew your throat up."
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On August 30 2020 02:32 Wombat_NornIron wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2020 01:10 Danglars wrote:On August 29 2020 18:21 Wombat_NornIron wrote:On August 29 2020 12:50 Danglars wrote:
It's much better for Biden to not go in thinking he's far and away the favorite, and to campaign heavily in the swing states Trump carried on low margins. When his internal polling showed he was falling in the battleground states, he started to give several live statements condemning the violence. But he would've done better to show he recognizes the challenges with China's posture and ethnic cleansing of the Uyghurs. The "not Trump" line just isn't good enough. He's also in a weird place blaming Trump's America for the violence, while having served in the administration that had Ferguson, Baltimore, Dallas. Would he? I mean that’s something to be condemned sure, is it that impactful electorally? Would not be a fan of the Uighur situation myself at all but is that an issue that particularly resonates? China's a major foreign policy hot zone, whether or not you think Trump is going to do well on that subject. Biden mentioned China just once in regards to dependence on foreign manufacturing. That ignorance of signalling something strong on China is political malpractice and I'll entertain anyone suggesting this or that advisor stripped it from his speech. Just a few of the more visible aspects to China in America. Buzzfeed investigations has a new longform piece on the construction of internment camps meant to house tens of thousands. The videos of Uyghur detainees with shaved heads and blindfolds sitting unmasked in groups was widely seen. The forced sterilizations and abortions are reported in Western press, amounting to a genocide of a minority of citizens. China is even now on a campaign to retaliate against Hong Kong for their very visible mass protests. The communist party also suppressed and spread disinformation to the WHO in the early stages of the worst pandemic in modern history. Americans saw these things on viral videos and on the news, but somehow it didn't rate in Biden's first pitch to the American people to become their next president. Read and respond to the articles if you have any further questions. This is relatively common knowledge, least in these parts. Outside of the manufacturing/jobs element that Biden and outside the Trump tent is it an issue that particular resonates that strongly in America is what I was asking? I don’t really know from my current transatlantic prism, Trump fans seem rather obsessed with all things China but unsure about the wider populace.
I mean ethnic genocide, mass surveillance and arrests, and the early coverup of a massive pandemic tends to cut across people that normally don't pay attention to politics. Obsession might have been true about the types that focus on Chinese trade. The outlook now is more one asking what's obsessive about caring about the internment, re-education, and forced sterilization and abortions? Some things deserve attention and Biden's campaign and advisors have been lacking.
If this had been done to a minority population in Northern Ireland, do you think it would be obsessive to make it a primary focus for the rest of the world?
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On August 30 2020 03:11 Starlightsun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2020 18:18 pmh wrote:
"one of his trump cards was overall economic performance. Well that’s down the shitter now"
He can still use it as an argument,and he also did so during his acceptence speech.
The economy was doing well before (though not all americans did benefit equally from the growth) and the epidemic isnt his fault. I also dont think the situation with the epidemic would have been any better with a democrat as president. It also does come down to the individual states and some things are pretty much out of control.
So trump says he can get the economy out of the slump faster and better then the biden once the epidemic starts getting less bad. And seeing the 3 years before i think this is a somewhat credible argument that people are willing to believe.
This way he can turn the economic crisis into his advantage,or at least lessen the damage. I dont think the economic crisis will have that much of a direct effect on the election after all. It would have been easier for trump if everything was still doing well but since the cause is pretty much an outside factor beyond anyones control i doubt it will hurt him all that much. I would like to know how much of that good economy he can actually claim credit for. Yes the pandemic wasn't his fault, but was the good economy his doing or something he just inherited and managed not to fuck up?
Zero. The pattern for the last few presidents has been that a republican fucked up the economy, then a democrat got it moving upwards again, and the next republican took credit for it while blaming the democrat for the upfucking the previous republican did.
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On August 30 2020 03:11 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2020 01:49 Gorgonoth wrote:
Look as someone who has known and tended to support police officers, I have no problem saying what I think is pretty much indisputable; that the police system in the United States needs a large overhaul. There needs to be better training, better psychological evaluations, and combating of implicit biases. The pattern of lethal force as a first response is horrible. They've got to be better at crisis management and deescalating tense situations. I understand those who say it's a hard and increasingly thankless job, but we need police reform, and we need to create more mutual trust between officers and the communities.
No one should be against peaceful, nonviolent protests of this issue. However, this is not all that has happened. Looting was widespread, I witnessed it myself in Philadelphia, these demonstrations became very violent and dangerous. There was not a respect for property, there was chaos and pandemonium. This was a moment for discourse and it was overshadowed by opportunist rioters. This is a breakdown of law and order, its documented that crime surged in many cities. I get the feeling like this may not matter to you, but for the "bad politics" swing voter in PA, It will. I think we've had enough discourse, this problem has been happening for long enough for us to consider discourse to have happened and for society to collectively decided police murdering black people is just okay. This is like having your throat slit and the doctor who is supposed to be stitching you up going,"You know, you're getting blood all over my nice coat, I think you need to stop bleeding all over the place if you want me to sew your throat up."
It's equivalent to saying progress doesn't matter as long as we can find videos of police responding poorly across the US.
If people can ignore the decline in black deaths at the hands of police, and decide society is just ok with black deaths, then you missed the entire BLM rise (and fall if you look at polling) and all the changes with respect to body cams, no-knock raids, and the rest. If people were fine, BLM would never have gotten its first wave of support. The rhetoric is for change, but the actions correlate to a group that decides change is impossible and the current society must be brought down with violence first. It's a meme on the right that resonates right now: They don't care about black lives if it's David Dorn at a pawn shop, or inner cities with less police to defend black lives calling 911, or anything besides white officers shooting black men.
I'm starting to think reform is impossible, because the real energy is on organizing protests and riots as means of retribution to whatever whites they think are guilty of letting the system produce such police forces. Look at the Kenosha and Portland marches through affluent white neighborhoods demanding the homeowners come out and join them. I have to agree with you partially, that one side increasingly believes "discourse [has] happened" and that side has given up on the Democratic means of redress.
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On August 30 2020 03:30 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2020 02:32 Wombat_NornIron wrote:On August 30 2020 01:10 Danglars wrote:On August 29 2020 18:21 Wombat_NornIron wrote:On August 29 2020 12:50 Danglars wrote:
It's much better for Biden to not go in thinking he's far and away the favorite, and to campaign heavily in the swing states Trump carried on low margins. When his internal polling showed he was falling in the battleground states, he started to give several live statements condemning the violence. But he would've done better to show he recognizes the challenges with China's posture and ethnic cleansing of the Uyghurs. The "not Trump" line just isn't good enough. He's also in a weird place blaming Trump's America for the violence, while having served in the administration that had Ferguson, Baltimore, Dallas. Would he? I mean that’s something to be condemned sure, is it that impactful electorally? Would not be a fan of the Uighur situation myself at all but is that an issue that particularly resonates? China's a major foreign policy hot zone, whether or not you think Trump is going to do well on that subject. Biden mentioned China just once in regards to dependence on foreign manufacturing. That ignorance of signalling something strong on China is political malpractice and I'll entertain anyone suggesting this or that advisor stripped it from his speech. Just a few of the more visible aspects to China in America. Buzzfeed investigations has a new longform piece on the construction of internment camps meant to house tens of thousands. The videos of Uyghur detainees with shaved heads and blindfolds sitting unmasked in groups was widely seen. The forced sterilizations and abortions are reported in Western press, amounting to a genocide of a minority of citizens. China is even now on a campaign to retaliate against Hong Kong for their very visible mass protests. The communist party also suppressed and spread disinformation to the WHO in the early stages of the worst pandemic in modern history. Americans saw these things on viral videos and on the news, but somehow it didn't rate in Biden's first pitch to the American people to become their next president. Read and respond to the articles if you have any further questions. This is relatively common knowledge, least in these parts. Outside of the manufacturing/jobs element that Biden and outside the Trump tent is it an issue that particular resonates that strongly in America is what I was asking? I don’t really know from my current transatlantic prism, Trump fans seem rather obsessed with all things China but unsure about the wider populace. I mean ethnic genocide, mass surveillance and arrests, and the early coverup of a massive pandemic tends to cut across people that normally don't pay attention to politics. Obsession might have been true about the types that focus on Chinese trade. The outlook now is more one asking what's obsessive about caring about the internment, re-education, and forced sterilization and abortions? Some things deserve attention and Biden's campaign and advisors have been lacking. If this had been done to a minority population in Northern Ireland, do you think it would be obsessive to make it a primary focus for the rest of the world?
Yes. Americans ONLY care because china has considerable economic power currently and some of their increases came at a direct cost to american power (manufacturing moving from US to China). That's obvious based on how little anyone has ever given a shit about genocides in poor African countries (I think one is actually going on right now and I don't even know which country it is in anymore, having only seen it in the news once in the past 2 years). It's almost always whataboutism when it gets mentioned in the context of US politics- "US has kids in cages, but China has Uighur camps".
If one happened in NI, I would hope the US stopped being a military ally with GB and accept that nothing to stop it could be done short of an extremely costly war, especially after Brexit. As trade partners our economies would be too intertwined for economic sanctions to work (similar to China). We already aren't military allies with China. Trump's trade tactics weren't strictly a bad idea, but the execution has been pretty ineffective - and his stated purpose has NOT been for Uighurs, it has been for bringing American jobs back (impossible, as those are now automated), and being the lone nation doing it means that China simply increased their prices, made carefully targeted retaliatory tariffs (that targeted red districts exclusively) and accepted the small economic hit.
The only way to actually stop it outside of a war is diplomacy and soft power, two things the Trump administration does NOT understand. It would take a multinational agreement large enough to impact China's economy for them to listen, and Trump has thrown the chances of those in the toilet (see: Iran deal, TPP).
On August 30 2020 03:43 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2020 03:11 Zambrah wrote:On August 30 2020 01:49 Gorgonoth wrote:
Look as someone who has known and tended to support police officers, I have no problem saying what I think is pretty much indisputable; that the police system in the United States needs a large overhaul. There needs to be better training, better psychological evaluations, and combating of implicit biases. The pattern of lethal force as a first response is horrible. They've got to be better at crisis management and deescalating tense situations. I understand those who say it's a hard and increasingly thankless job, but we need police reform, and we need to create more mutual trust between officers and the communities.
No one should be against peaceful, nonviolent protests of this issue. However, this is not all that has happened. Looting was widespread, I witnessed it myself in Philadelphia, these demonstrations became very violent and dangerous. There was not a respect for property, there was chaos and pandemonium. This was a moment for discourse and it was overshadowed by opportunist rioters. This is a breakdown of law and order, its documented that crime surged in many cities. I get the feeling like this may not matter to you, but for the "bad politics" swing voter in PA, It will. I think we've had enough discourse, this problem has been happening for long enough for us to consider discourse to have happened and for society to collectively decided police murdering black people is just okay. This is like having your throat slit and the doctor who is supposed to be stitching you up going,"You know, you're getting blood all over my nice coat, I think you need to stop bleeding all over the place if you want me to sew your throat up." It's equivalent to saying progress doesn't matter as long as we can find videos of police responding poorly across the US. If people can ignore the decline in black deaths at the hands of police, and decide society is just ok with black deaths, then you missed the entire BLM rise (and fall if you look at polling) and all the changes with respect to body cams, no-knock raids, and the rest. If people were fine, BLM would never have gotten its first wave of support. The rhetoric is for change, but the actions correlate to a group that decides change is impossible and the current society must be brought down with violence first. It's a meme on the right that resonates right now: They don't care about black lives if it's David Dorn at a pawn shop, or inner cities with less police to defend black lives calling 911, or anything besides white officers shooting black men. I'm starting to think reform is impossible, because the real energy is on organizing protests and riots as means of retribution to whatever whites they think are guilty of letting the system produce such police forces. Look at the Kenosha and Portland marches through affluent white neighborhoods demanding the homeowners come out and join them. I have to agree with you partially, that one side increasingly believes "discourse [has] happened" and that side has given up on the Democratic means of redress.
Kenosha doesn't have bodycams and the proposed reform to require bodycams and additional civilian oversight died in the house (as with all things these days)
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On August 30 2020 03:32 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2020 03:11 Starlightsun wrote:On August 29 2020 18:18 pmh wrote:
"one of his trump cards was overall economic performance. Well that’s down the shitter now"
He can still use it as an argument,and he also did so during his acceptence speech.
The economy was doing well before (though not all americans did benefit equally from the growth) and the epidemic isnt his fault. I also dont think the situation with the epidemic would have been any better with a democrat as president. It also does come down to the individual states and some things are pretty much out of control.
So trump says he can get the economy out of the slump faster and better then the biden once the epidemic starts getting less bad. And seeing the 3 years before i think this is a somewhat credible argument that people are willing to believe.
This way he can turn the economic crisis into his advantage,or at least lessen the damage. I dont think the economic crisis will have that much of a direct effect on the election after all. It would have been easier for trump if everything was still doing well but since the cause is pretty much an outside factor beyond anyones control i doubt it will hurt him all that much. I would like to know how much of that good economy he can actually claim credit for. Yes the pandemic wasn't his fault, but was the good economy his doing or something he just inherited and managed not to fuck up? Zero. The pattern for the last few presidents has been that a republican fucked up the economy, then a democrat got it moving upwards again, and the next republican took credit for it while blaming the democrat for the upfucking the previous republican did.
I suppose it is too complicated though to prove to a layman? It's a shame because that seems to be the strongest claim that Trump has upon voters, that he's "better for the economy".
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EPT
