EPTEDIT: Wisconsin also has some sort of "legal to physically resist unlawful arrest" law but I have no idea the applicability in practice.
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 2583
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GreenHorizons
United States24512 Posts
EDIT: Wisconsin also has some sort of "legal to physically resist unlawful arrest" law but I have no idea the applicability in practice. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27478 Posts
I’ve seen footage of shootings where I’d probably shoot a guy if I was in that position, someone does a rapid 180 on you a black item in their hand. Yeah the lizard brain may well kick in, one such incident I saw the cop start vomiting when he saw It wasn’t a gun. Aside from the wider ethical discussion, that kind of scenario in isolation that’s pretty understandable. On the other hand you have absolute shitshows like Daniel Shaver or Breonna Taylor, George Floyd etc. The lizard brain shouldn’t be nearly as much of a factor in a planned house call, and it certainly doesn’t explain the sadism culpable in George Floyd’s death. At the most generous you have a lot of cops out there either badly trained or following bad procedures, or otherwise psychologically incapable of functioning properly in a charged situation. The less generous is you have a lot of psychological malcontents who have a badge and authority over their fellow man. Curious what we’ll find out about this shooter at the protest in the coming days on that front, have some hunches. | ||
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IgnE
United States7684 Posts
On August 28 2020 03:30 Broetchenholer wrote: I disagree. If the police argument boils down to, he resisted arrest, the only way to stop that was to shoot him with intent to kill, you are punishing a crime without trial with death. Even if he had a knife, he did not make any aggressive movements towards the police with it. He walked away from them. He might have gotten away? Yes, that is their option. Just let the man leave. He will calm down. People know him. What makes this man so dangerous, that we cannot allow to let him get away alive? The encounter could have ended with a later arrest. And that would have been it, a trial for resisting arrest, not headlines, no outrage. Not two more people killed 3 days later. He did get away alive. This is not a fruitful line of argument. You can't fix this problem by trying to change what police do after they have already unsuccessfully tased someone with a knife. You have to implement change that limits the number of situations where a suspect is about to get into a car after being tased. | ||
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pmh
1416 Posts
I expect him to do relativly well but its trump so you never can be sure of anything. | ||
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Broetchenholer
Germany1970 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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pmh
1416 Posts
Yes he probably wont,but he does have the opportunity and try win over some floating voters in the middle without damaging himself with his own base. Its not like the rightwing has any other option besides trump at this point. He came around when it came to the epidemic and masks in the end,at least to some extend. Maybe another surprise tonight. Going all in on law and order i think would be the wrong way to go in the current situation and it doesnt seem needed either. Maybe a mixed bag of attacks on china,bidens mental state,law and order and also something de-polarizing if only slightly. Will see what happens, | ||
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Simberto
Germany12086 Posts
On August 28 2020 04:02 Broetchenholer wrote: Yes it is. Should that conversation start with "don't tase anybody unecessarily" first? Sure. But why not have a conversation why once someone is stupid enough to not lie down and hope to not get killed after surrendering for arrest, there is still a chance for him to live. European countries have this as well. It is possible to not kill someone just because he does not want to get thrown into the community jail. I understand that the situation in the US is harder as the amount of lethal weapons is higher, but again, for some reason, the weapons itself are only seen as dangerous when they are drawn with hands of a specific skin color. Resisting arrest is not in a single state reason enough to allow the use of deadly force. So why are we arguing if this one might have gotten away, had they not shot him? The US has the additional problem that once the cops get their hands on you, you are very likely to end up in jail or prison. Doesn't matter if you are guilty of anything, once you are in the system, you end up in prison. Plea deals and a justice system which rewards prosecutors for convition rates and not for finding the truth have this effect. So if you get captured, it has a good chance of just ending the life you know anyways. | ||
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IgnE
United States7684 Posts
On August 28 2020 04:02 Broetchenholer wrote: Yes it is. Should that conversation start with "don't tase anybody unecessarily" first? Sure. But why not have a conversation why once someone is stupid enough to not lie down and hope to not get killed after surrendering for arrest, there is still a chance for him to live. European countries have this as well. It is possible to not kill someone just because he does not want to get thrown into the community jail. I understand that the situation in the US is harder as the amount of lethal weapons is higher, but again, for some reason, the weapons itself are only seen as dangerous when they are drawn with hands of a specific skin color. Resisting arrest is not in a single state reason enough to allow the use of deadly force. So why are we arguing if this one might have gotten away, had they not shot him? Talk about "use of deadly force" as it relates to "resisting arrest" is too hopelessly embroiled in messy particularity to be subject to universal guidelines. Is it "deadly force" if a taser kills someone with a heart condition? What about if a restraint maneuver kills someone with abnormal breathing? What about bumping someone who has an eggshell skull? Is use of force in response to "resistance" or in response to "imminent danger" to the cop? What's the line between resistance and attack? When is an arrest legitimate? Part of the absolute horror of police power is that it demands compliance, has the air of inevitability, and appears unlimited. Only if one trusts that their power is limited, that unjust arrests can be fought successfully, that arrest itself without a conviction won't destroy one's life, is that horror mitigated. It is of course possible to not kill some one just because he does not want to get thrown into jail. It happens all the time in the US. It is not possible to never kill anyone who does not want to get thrown into jail when there are guns everywhere, people resisting cops have access to guns, and cops have fleshy vulnerable bodies themselves. As for the bolded, I know you don't live here, but that isn't true. There are plenty of white people being killed by the police, and killed because the police think they have weapons or had weapons or might have weapons. Imprecision with language, or being a race-reductionist, is especially treacherous to understanding when feeling runs so high. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On August 28 2020 04:55 IgnE wrote: Talk about "use of deadly force" as it relates to "resisting arrest" is too hopelessly embroiled in messy particularity to be subject to universal guidelines. Is it "deadly force" if a taser kills someone with a heart condition? What about if a restraint maneuver kills someone with abnormal breathing? What about bumping someone who has an eggshell skull? Is use of force in response to "resistance" or in response to "imminent danger" to the cop? What's the line between resistance and attack? When is an arrest legitimate? Part of the absolute horror of police power is that it demands compliance, has the air of inevitability, and appears unlimited. Only if one trusts that their power is limited, that unjust arrests can be fought successfully, that arrest itself without a conviction won't destroy one's life, is that horror mitigated. It is of course possible to not kill some one just because he does not want to get thrown into jail. It happens all the time in the US. It is not possible to never kill anyone who does not want to get thrown into jail when there are guns everywhere, people resisting cops have access to guns, and cops have fleshy vulnerable bodies themselves. As for the bolded, I know you don't live here, but that isn't true. There are plenty of white people being killed by the police, and killed because the police think they have weapons or had weapons or might have weapons. Imprecision with language, or being a race-reductionist, is especially treacherous to understanding when feeling runs so high. The reference to the bolded is interesting. The issue has really come to the fore lately in terms of mass agitation and being at the forefront of public discourse. It is certainly one that has a distinct racial component, but perception can often take the form that it’s solely a racial one. I suppose it’s a natural consequence of the core agitators and pushers being from the black community. There are certainly advantages to that in mobilisation, although I suppose the flip side is you get the reactionary pushback along racial lines with it. | ||
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Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
On August 28 2020 04:48 Simberto wrote: The US has the additional problem that once the cops get their hands on you, you are very likely to end up in jail or prison. Doesn't matter if you are guilty of anything, once you are in the system, you end up in prison. Plea deals and a justice system which rewards prosecutors for convition rates and not for finding the truth have this effect. So if you get captured, it has a good chance of just ending the life you know anyways. Yeah sometimes people spend months in jail awaiting their trial. Unless they can pay for bail, so further penalties for being poor. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
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farvacola
United States18876 Posts
On August 28 2020 06:28 Mohdoo wrote: I'd say right now I feel a lot better about Biden winning AZ rather than WI. I still just have zero faith in middle america. So little cultural exchange. FWIW and not speaking for Wisconsin, i think there’ll be Midwest surprises. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On August 28 2020 06:28 Mohdoo wrote: I'd say right now I feel a lot better about Biden winning AZ rather than WI. I still just have zero faith in middle america. So little cultural exchange. Seems like he's polling at about the same level in both. AZ is a pretty strongly right-leaning state (that will occasoinally vote for a Republican who runs as a Democrat), so the fact that it's one of the really key battleground states is actually not the best news for Biden. A slight shift in Trump's favor and those states are going to flip. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4463 Posts
On August 28 2020 06:28 Mohdoo wrote: I'd say right now I feel a lot better about Biden winning AZ rather than WI. I still just have zero faith in middle america. So little cultural exchange. Biden is dropping nationally.Not surprising when the guy is hiding in his basement and has done one TV interview the past month. Pelosi has now joined CNN (political analyst Joe Lockhart) and others in voicing the opinion that there shouldn't be any debates.Just makes Biden look weak. https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/27/pelosi-biden-trump-debate-403598 | ||
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farvacola
United States18876 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On August 28 2020 07:06 farvacola wrote: The challenger to the incumbent not wanting debates doesn't mean what you think it does. Sure, Democrats might want to avoid Biden bumbling around, but they are far more likely making a bet on what the status quo looks and feels like to voters. It's also not Biden doing this. He seems fine with having the debates. (The only thing I think he's spoken against is having an extra one) | ||
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farvacola
United States18876 Posts
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PhoenixVoid
Canada32761 Posts
On August 28 2020 06:55 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Biden is dropping nationally.Not surprising when the guy is hiding in his basement and has done one TV interview the past month. Pelosi has now joined CNN (political analyst Joe Lockhart) and others in voicing the opinion that there shouldn't be any debates.Just makes Biden look weak. https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/27/pelosi-biden-trump-debate-403598 Biden's nation-wide numbers seem pretty damn consistent to me. They've fallen, but not by drastic levels, and they remain consistent compared to Clinton four years ago. The only outlier poll is predictably Rasmussen. For a WFH campaign it hasn't been doing too horribly I think. Also Biden said he's willing to debate so I don't take Pelosi's word seriously here. Swing states are where the Biden campaign should be worried though. The only one that appears safe so far is Michigan, and the rest are within a margin of error or have not been generous to the Democrats recently, like with Florida. When Minnesota is this close it should be a sign that Trump is nowhere close to losing. https://www.realclearpolitics.com/elections/trump-vs-biden-top-battleground-states/ I'd be curious to see if the events in Kenosha are going to impact the three midwest states that the Democratic Party is desperately hoping and investing in to flip back from Trump. The Floyd protests helped Biden more than Trump from what I can tell, but the Blake shooting so far isn't eliciting as much sympathy. | ||
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