|
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
|
|
On August 28 2020 01:15 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2020 00:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
When people use the "Million Uyghurs put in concentration camp" I always wonder whether it's supposed to be the same million from a couple years ago or those ones are all dead in some mass graves somewhere and it's a new million or what?
I also wonder if people have seen a US prison (or the rubble where some Palestinian's home used to be) lately when they look at the conditions afforded Uyghurs in so called concentration camps facilitating genocide.
But the biggest red flag has got to be how invested the right wing is in selling the idea that they give a damn about Muslims, let alone Muslims that aren't even US citizens or able to act as a vassal oil/resource regime. I don't know why you are taking this position. + Show Spoiler +What the Chinese are doing is very bad. Orders of magnitude worse than anything the US government is doing to its citizens.
Short answer is I'm not a fan of western chauvinism.
|
On August 28 2020 00:54 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2020 00:44 Nevuk wrote:
The only requirement for a cop to get away with murder is that they be willing to testify under oath that they felt afraid, in the US. This is a principle known as qualified immunity - the idea being that a person can't be charged for executing their job's duties (it applies to other professions though it's nowhere near as prevalant). It's slowly started having some pushback from a few courts due to just how rampant the abuse is, and even Danglars thinks it has gone way too far (I think he wanted to eliminate it instead of other police reforms).
If you watch the video, even if he were going for a knife IN his car, there was no reason to shoot him. The cop grabs him to hold him still so he could shoot him 7 times. Grabbing him to throw him to the ground would be well, not QUITE as easy, but not that much harder than holding him to immobilize.
It wasnt a knife in his car it was allegedly a knife in his hand already as he went to his car. The theory is he could have had a gun in uis car, used his vehicle as a weapon, or escaped and harmed someone. I say allegedly because its hard to find a reputible source on it.
None of that justifies shooting someone. He was not shot using his car as a weapon, he was not threatening anybody with a gun. Just think about what you are writing here. You say the police might be allowed to kill you, not because you are a threat to them and others, but because you might get away otherwise and become a threat. That is ridiculous. So we are even further then just the police was fearing for his life, now we are at the police was thinking they might get into a situation where they could fear for their life later, so better shoot the man in the back now.
|
On August 28 2020 01:09 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2020 00:54 Sadist wrote:On August 28 2020 00:44 Nevuk wrote:
The only requirement for a cop to get away with murder is that they be willing to testify under oath that they felt afraid, in the US. This is a principle known as qualified immunity - the idea being that a person can't be charged for executing their job's duties (it applies to other professions though it's nowhere near as prevalant). It's slowly started having some pushback from a few courts due to just how rampant the abuse is, and even Danglars thinks it has gone way too far (I think he wanted to eliminate it instead of other police reforms).
If you watch the video, even if he were going for a knife IN his car, there was no reason to shoot him. The cop grabs him to hold him still so he could shoot him 7 times. Grabbing him to throw him to the ground would be well, not QUITE as easy, but not that much harder than holding him to immobilize.
It wasnt a knife in his car it was allegedly a knife in his hand already as he went to his car. The theory is he could have had a gun in uis car, used his vehicle as a weapon, or escaped and harmed someone. I say allegedly because its hard to find a reputible source on it. What I've read is that cops said that they thought he had one (which they ALWAYS claim, whether it's true or not - the subject had a weapon if they have anything in their hand, even a bottle of water or a cellphone). Witnesses echo that the cops told him to drop the knife, but witnesses observed no knife. They found a knife in his car, but that doesn't really mean much - the actual car was a much better weapon, and at this point this pd's credibility is so bad I'm not sure I can be assured that they didn't plant it to back up their story. This is a pd that doesn't have bodycams, which is a HUGE red flag to me. Here's a reputable source on the knife issue: https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/kenosha-police-officer-who-shot-jacob-blake-in-the-back-seven-times-has-been-identified/Also come on at the people claiming that there was no disparity on how the cops here treated the white suspect. They heard gunshots, people shouted he killed someone and... the cops asked him for directions and waved him on. Seriously. He spent hours walking around in front of them fully armed, and they gave him water. There's video evidence of all of this. Ann Coulter also wants him to be president (not that she should be taken seriously by anyone, but she is by a few). Via Vice: Show nested quote +While it’s not immediately clear why Rittenhouse, a former police cadet, was at the protest, his social media indicates an affiliation with “Back the Blue,” a pro-police movement. In recent months, pro-cop vigilantes have been showing up heavily armed at protests across the country to defend public property, often warmly received by local law enforcement.
Police interacted with the alleged gunman at various locations in Kenosha throughout the night. In one video, Rittenhouse is seen chatting with police who gave him a bottle of water and thanked him for being there.
[...]
The apparent shooter, meanwhile, was seen on video walking away from the scene — his AR-style rifle clearly visible, his hands above his head. But Kenosha police who were responding to the reports of gunfire showed no interest in arresting or even questioning the man.
Instead, they asked him for directions. “Is someone injured, straight ahead?” an officer asks him via loudspeaker.
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/xg8pxj/a-17-year-old-aspiring-cop-has-been-charged-with-murder-in-kenosha
The kid is white, yes. But he also spent his teenage years obsessed with police regalia, went to police "cadet training" camps, and probably was already on friendly terms with the police. Is it likely that his attachment to police was aided by a sense of whiteness, or a sense of self-similarity? Yes. But is the difference in treatment solely due to race? Obviously not. The police trusted him, not solely because of his whiteness, abstracted from every other feature of his particularity, but because he wanted to be one of them and supported them ("blue lives matter").
The abstract rending of America into "the black" and "the white" is an impediment to analysis here. Black and white are heterogeneously distributed throughout the nation's social networks, and in the affiliation/alliance webs connected to the police. But losing sight of the particularities is going to lead you to an abstract, unreal void.
|
On August 28 2020 01:18 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2020 01:15 IgnE wrote:On August 28 2020 00:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
When people use the "Million Uyghurs put in concentration camp" I always wonder whether it's supposed to be the same million from a couple years ago or those ones are all dead in some mass graves somewhere and it's a new million or what?
I also wonder if people have seen a US prison (or the rubble where some Palestinian's home used to be) lately when they look at the conditions afforded Uyghurs in so called concentration camps facilitating genocide.
But the biggest red flag has got to be how invested the right wing is in selling the idea that they give a damn about Muslims, let alone Muslims that aren't even US citizens or able to act as a vassal oil/resource regime. I don't know why you are taking this position. + Show Spoiler +What the Chinese are doing is very bad. Orders of magnitude worse than anything the US government is doing to its citizens. Short answer is I'm not a fan of western chauvinism.
I'm not a fan of mob craziness, but sometimes you have to stand in solidarity with oppressed peoples.
|
On August 28 2020 01:22 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2020 01:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 28 2020 01:15 IgnE wrote:On August 28 2020 00:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
When people use the "Million Uyghurs put in concentration camp" I always wonder whether it's supposed to be the same million from a couple years ago or those ones are all dead in some mass graves somewhere and it's a new million or what?
I also wonder if people have seen a US prison (or the rubble where some Palestinian's home used to be) lately when they look at the conditions afforded Uyghurs in so called concentration camps facilitating genocide.
But the biggest red flag has got to be how invested the right wing is in selling the idea that they give a damn about Muslims, let alone Muslims that aren't even US citizens or able to act as a vassal oil/resource regime. I don't know why you are taking this position. + Show Spoiler +What the Chinese are doing is very bad. Orders of magnitude worse than anything the US government is doing to its citizens. Short answer is I'm not a fan of western chauvinism. I'm not a fan of mob craziness, but sometimes you have to stand in solidarity with oppressed peoples.
I mean there's a discussion to be had about the radical violence that came out of part of the Uyghur population in China, how their response compares to ours post 9-11 (they've managed not to invade the wrong country and kill somewhere between 100,000 and 1,000,000 civilians halfway across the planet, so that's a point for China) and so forth. Just not for here. I've implored the people that want to constantly reference China to make a relevant thread but they've thus refused.
Western chauvinism is how readily people dismiss the millions the US kills around the globe directly and indirectly and millions it incarcerates, sterilizes, forces/coerces to labor, etc in deplorable conditions as notably less significant than whatever they think China is doing to Uyghurs.
Before any substantive comparisons can be made/analyzed, people have to have a solid grip on what we currently know about both. That's pretty much impossible with the western left/center.
|
Northern Ireland27228 Posts
America is an increasingly disturbing place to me, I’m sure not particularly novel to natives.
There will always be crazies everywhere, but this shooter has active cheerleading far beyond the fringes. Or every well-publicised victim of police violence has people delving in to see if they shoplifted once so hey it’s not such a big deal. Or a Zimmerman autographing bags of skittles.
Skirting around even issues of race (although clearly they’re a factor) there’s something rotten at the base of the culture too.
Even the Gulf States only cut your hand off for stealing, in the US there’s plenty of folk who are happy if police dish out capital punishment in the apprehension of people doing such petty crimes.
|
On August 28 2020 01:42 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2020 01:22 IgnE wrote:On August 28 2020 01:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 28 2020 01:15 IgnE wrote:On August 28 2020 00:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
When people use the "Million Uyghurs put in concentration camp" I always wonder whether it's supposed to be the same million from a couple years ago or those ones are all dead in some mass graves somewhere and it's a new million or what?
I also wonder if people have seen a US prison (or the rubble where some Palestinian's home used to be) lately when they look at the conditions afforded Uyghurs in so called concentration camps facilitating genocide.
But the biggest red flag has got to be how invested the right wing is in selling the idea that they give a damn about Muslims, let alone Muslims that aren't even US citizens or able to act as a vassal oil/resource regime. I don't know why you are taking this position. + Show Spoiler +What the Chinese are doing is very bad. Orders of magnitude worse than anything the US government is doing to its citizens. Short answer is I'm not a fan of western chauvinism. I'm not a fan of mob craziness, but sometimes you have to stand in solidarity with oppressed peoples. I mean there's a discussion to be had about the radical violence that came out of part of the Uyghur population in China, how their response compares to ours post 9-11 (they've managed not to invade the wrong country and kill somewhere between 100,000 and 1,000,000 civilians halfway across the planet, so that's a point for China) and so forth. Just not for here. I've implored the people that want to constantly reference China to make a relevant thread but they've thus refused. Western chauvinism is how readily people dismiss the millions the US kills around the globe directly and indirectly and millions it incarcerates, sterilizes, forces/coerces to labor, etc in deplorable conditions as notably less significant than whatever they think China is doing to Uyghurs. Before any substantive comparisons can be made/analyzed, people have to have a solid grip on what we currently know about both. That's pretty much impossible with the western left/center.
No.
|
On August 28 2020 01:15 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2020 00:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
When people use the "Million Uyghurs put in concentration camp" I always wonder whether it's supposed to be the same million from a couple years ago or those ones are all dead in some mass graves somewhere and it's a new million or what?
I also wonder if people have seen a US prison (or the rubble where some Palestinian's home used to be) lately when they look at the conditions afforded Uyghurs in so called concentration camps facilitating genocide.
But the biggest red flag has got to be how invested the right wing is in selling the idea that they give a damn about Muslims, let alone Muslims that aren't even US citizens or able to act as a vassal oil/resource regime. I don't know why you are taking this position. What the Chinese are doing is very bad. Orders of magnitude worse than anything the US government is doing to its citizens. Show nested quote +On August 27 2020 22:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On August 27 2020 21:26 Sadist wrote:On August 27 2020 20:57 Zambrah wrote:On August 27 2020 19:46 Sadist wrote:On August 27 2020 16:25 Broetchenholer wrote:
Analyzing anything about the specifics of the black victim is kinda pointless if you see how the white people are treated in the same week. The guy that shot 2 protestors was miraculously not shot in the back. One man might have been reaching for a knife in the car with his 3 children, the other was holding an semi automatic long weapon, people were yelling that he had shot people. And if i just tell you that and that one of those was shot 7 times, which one would it have been? The circumstances are not relevant. The bar is different. Many guys had rifles walking around. Did the police see that guy shoot someone or were they called in a response to a shooting? I honestly dont know. Context matters here. You can bet if the guy with the rifle resisted arrest and made the officers feel endangered hed have been shot. If we rush to judgement and are wrong we lose credibility. Its important to be correct about this stuff. It may very well have been unjustified and the officer should go to jail be we dont know all the details. With George Floyd we didnt need all the details because they were irrelevant. The issue was having your knee placed on a mans neck while he was already subdued. That went on for minutes. This shooting was a split second by comparison. It may not be a good idea to lump this guy in with Tamir Rice, Philando Castille, George Floyd, etc Why is the white kid with the rifle less frightening than a black person literally doing nothing wrong in their own fucking home like Breonna Taylor? The officers fucked up with Breonna Taylor. Bad things happen every day. There is only an illusion of safety. Your last few posts show how much of a cop apologist you are and how misinformed/callous you are about people of color and their lives. The more you post, the more you come across as a complete and utter moron. If your first thought is "wait, what's all the details of both situations" when video evidence is right there for you, then you're lost and will remain so. Commenting on this topic is probably not something you should do going forward. The naive assumption that "video evidence" is transparent and immediately available for everyone's judgment is becoming a serious problem. People should be thinking "wait, what's the total context here." But it must be consistently applied. It can become evil when video evidence that confirms your prejudice is seen as transparent and video evidence that challenges your prejudice is seen as opaque, requiring a further "debunking."
You apply the same thinking to the George Floyd killing? The Philando murder? The Eric Garner manslaughter? With ample video evidence and I watched the video of Blake up until the shooting, the cop followed him. The cop could have stood where he was and watched and then, and only then, saw that he was a threat, discharge his duty. But he followed him to the vehicle and shot him in the back.
I agree any and all evidence should be scrutinized as warranted. This is pretty clear cut.
|
Canada11586 Posts
On August 28 2020 00:30 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2020 00:22 JimmiC wrote:On August 27 2020 23:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 27 2020 23:33 maybenexttime wrote:
What genocide in Palestine? Do you even know what a genocide is? I know there's absolutely no possible coherent reasoning for referring to an Uighur genocide but refusing to identify Israel's treatment of Palestinians as such. If we want to be lazy we can at minimum agree to classify them both as either genocide or not together. Now only one has the full-throated support of the US government and was part of the RNC convention location theater though (so an appropriate topic for this thread). You do know that the Uighur's are being sent to "re-education camps" where they often never come back and that the all powerful Chinese government is forcefully sterilizing them right? That the far right of Israel who barely won the last election is taking sacred and agreed upon land is certainly awful and that Trump is supporting the corrupt Netenyahu is also terrible. But it is not in the same ball park as what is happening in China to its own citizens. You do realise that millions of Palestinians have lived their entire lives in an open air prison, right?Its not just taking land. Palestinians are deprived of basic freedoms for their entire lives with no hope of change.
Wait, wait, wait. Those open air prisons aren't even in Israel are they? (Or am I missing something?) You are talking about the permanent refugee camps in the surrounding Muslim countries. Because it is the surrounding Muslim countries that refuse to allow the refugees to integrate (though an equal number of Jews fled Muslim countries and were integrated.) You cannot conflate like that as though Israel is keeping the Palestinians boxed in when they are maintained (by not allowing maintenance) by the authority of other countries.
|
On August 28 2020 01:42 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2020 01:22 IgnE wrote:On August 28 2020 01:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 28 2020 01:15 IgnE wrote:On August 28 2020 00:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
When people use the "Million Uyghurs put in concentration camp" I always wonder whether it's supposed to be the same million from a couple years ago or those ones are all dead in some mass graves somewhere and it's a new million or what?
I also wonder if people have seen a US prison (or the rubble where some Palestinian's home used to be) lately when they look at the conditions afforded Uyghurs in so called concentration camps facilitating genocide.
But the biggest red flag has got to be how invested the right wing is in selling the idea that they give a damn about Muslims, let alone Muslims that aren't even US citizens or able to act as a vassal oil/resource regime. I don't know why you are taking this position. + Show Spoiler +What the Chinese are doing is very bad. Orders of magnitude worse than anything the US government is doing to its citizens. Short answer is I'm not a fan of western chauvinism. I'm not a fan of mob craziness, but sometimes you have to stand in solidarity with oppressed peoples. I mean there's a discussion to be had about the radical violence that came out of part of the Uyghur population in China, how their response compares to ours post 9-11 (they've managed not to invade the wrong country and kill somewhere between 100,000 and 1,000,000 civilians halfway across the planet, so that's a point for China) and so forth. Just not for here. I've implored the people that want to constantly reference China to make a relevant thread but they've thus refused. Western chauvinism is how readily people dismiss the millions the US kills around the globe directly and indirectly and millions it incarcerates, sterilizes, forces/coerces to labor, etc in deplorable conditions as notably less significant than whatever they think China is doing to Uyghurs. Before any substantive comparisons can be made/analyzed, people have to have a solid grip on what we currently know about both. That's pretty much impossible with the western left/center.
How is it that you’ve decided that the framework you’ve outlined is “non-Western?” Your insistence that interlocutors adhere to a set of assumptions before they are able to opine on certain topics is as chauvinistic as anything you’re responding to.
|
On August 28 2020 01:53 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2020 01:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 28 2020 01:22 IgnE wrote:On August 28 2020 01:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 28 2020 01:15 IgnE wrote:On August 28 2020 00:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
When people use the "Million Uyghurs put in concentration camp" I always wonder whether it's supposed to be the same million from a couple years ago or those ones are all dead in some mass graves somewhere and it's a new million or what?
I also wonder if people have seen a US prison (or the rubble where some Palestinian's home used to be) lately when they look at the conditions afforded Uyghurs in so called concentration camps facilitating genocide.
But the biggest red flag has got to be how invested the right wing is in selling the idea that they give a damn about Muslims, let alone Muslims that aren't even US citizens or able to act as a vassal oil/resource regime. I don't know why you are taking this position. + Show Spoiler +What the Chinese are doing is very bad. Orders of magnitude worse than anything the US government is doing to its citizens. Short answer is I'm not a fan of western chauvinism. I'm not a fan of mob craziness, but sometimes you have to stand in solidarity with oppressed peoples. I mean there's a discussion to be had about the radical violence that came out of part of the Uyghur population in China, how their response compares to ours post 9-11 (they've managed not to invade the wrong country and kill somewhere between 100,000 and 1,000,000 civilians halfway across the planet, so that's a point for China) and so forth. Just not for here. I've implored the people that want to constantly reference China to make a relevant thread but they've thus refused. Western chauvinism is how readily people dismiss the millions the US kills around the globe directly and indirectly and millions it incarcerates, sterilizes, forces/coerces to labor, etc in deplorable conditions as notably less significant than whatever they think China is doing to Uyghurs. Before any substantive comparisons can be made/analyzed, people have to have a solid grip on what we currently know about both. That's pretty much impossible with the western left/center. How is it that you’ve decided that the framework you’ve outlined is “non-Western?” Your insistence that interlocutors adhere to a set of assumptions before they are able to opine on certain topics is as chauvinistic as anything you’re responding to.
There's some comedy in this coming after the preceding post from falling but I'm referring to an internationalist framework through a Marxist/historical materialism lens. Not anything of my own creation.
|
Canada11586 Posts
I'm just a funny, funny guy.
|
On August 28 2020 01:15 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2020 00:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
When people use the "Million Uyghurs put in concentration camp" I always wonder whether it's supposed to be the same million from a couple years ago or those ones are all dead in some mass graves somewhere and it's a new million or what?
I also wonder if people have seen a US prison (or the rubble where some Palestinian's home used to be) lately when they look at the conditions afforded Uyghurs in so called concentration camps facilitating genocide.
But the biggest red flag has got to be how invested the right wing is in selling the idea that they give a damn about Muslims, let alone Muslims that aren't even US citizens or able to act as a vassal oil/resource regime. I don't know why you are taking this position. What the Chinese are doing is very bad. Orders of magnitude worse than anything the US government is doing to its citizens.
Well, we have concentration camps for immigrants right now so I wouldn't be throwing stones very hard.
The US was also forcibly sterilizing many native american women until the 1980s, iirc.
Additionally, we have forced labor due to our prison population, which is crazy high (and forced unpaid labor in at least 7 states, as we've discussed before) - in 2007, we had 25% of all the world's prisoners.
The only order of magnitude worse is the rumored executions - which are currently just rumors (and it could be argued that the US' almost total negligence at immigration camps during a global pandemic is equivalent in result if not in method).
This would ordinarily be whataboutism, but it's already whataboutism to bring up Uighurs in the first place. They have almost no relevance to US politics, and none in the current conversation except as a way of saying "look, this other country is doing something bad too!". (Sidenote: why are we talking about Israel/Palestine/China in the first place? Was there news about it?)
|
On August 28 2020 01:57 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2020 01:53 farvacola wrote:On August 28 2020 01:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 28 2020 01:22 IgnE wrote:On August 28 2020 01:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 28 2020 01:15 IgnE wrote:On August 28 2020 00:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
When people use the "Million Uyghurs put in concentration camp" I always wonder whether it's supposed to be the same million from a couple years ago or those ones are all dead in some mass graves somewhere and it's a new million or what?
I also wonder if people have seen a US prison (or the rubble where some Palestinian's home used to be) lately when they look at the conditions afforded Uyghurs in so called concentration camps facilitating genocide.
But the biggest red flag has got to be how invested the right wing is in selling the idea that they give a damn about Muslims, let alone Muslims that aren't even US citizens or able to act as a vassal oil/resource regime. I don't know why you are taking this position. + Show Spoiler +What the Chinese are doing is very bad. Orders of magnitude worse than anything the US government is doing to its citizens. Short answer is I'm not a fan of western chauvinism. I'm not a fan of mob craziness, but sometimes you have to stand in solidarity with oppressed peoples. I mean there's a discussion to be had about the radical violence that came out of part of the Uyghur population in China, how their response compares to ours post 9-11 (they've managed not to invade the wrong country and kill somewhere between 100,000 and 1,000,000 civilians halfway across the planet, so that's a point for China) and so forth. Just not for here. I've implored the people that want to constantly reference China to make a relevant thread but they've thus refused. Western chauvinism is how readily people dismiss the millions the US kills around the globe directly and indirectly and millions it incarcerates, sterilizes, forces/coerces to labor, etc in deplorable conditions as notably less significant than whatever they think China is doing to Uyghurs. Before any substantive comparisons can be made/analyzed, people have to have a solid grip on what we currently know about both. That's pretty much impossible with the western left/center. How is it that you’ve decided that the framework you’ve outlined is “non-Western?” Your insistence that interlocutors adhere to a set of assumptions before they are able to opine on certain topics is as chauvinistic as anything you’re responding to. There's some comedy in this coming after the preceding post from falling but I'm referring to an internationalist framework through a Marxist/historical materialism lens. Not anything of my own creation.
There’s no such thing as an expression that exists divorced from the circumstances of its utterance. If you say it, it’s yours, so own it. You and I both know there are all sorts of glosses on the sentiments your offering that separate them from whatever theoretical orthodoxy you’re borrowing from.
|
On August 28 2020 01:52 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2020 00:30 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 28 2020 00:22 JimmiC wrote:On August 27 2020 23:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 27 2020 23:33 maybenexttime wrote:
What genocide in Palestine? Do you even know what a genocide is? I know there's absolutely no possible coherent reasoning for referring to an Uighur genocide but refusing to identify Israel's treatment of Palestinians as such. If we want to be lazy we can at minimum agree to classify them both as either genocide or not together. Now only one has the full-throated support of the US government and was part of the RNC convention location theater though (so an appropriate topic for this thread). You do know that the Uighur's are being sent to "re-education camps" where they often never come back and that the all powerful Chinese government is forcefully sterilizing them right? That the far right of Israel who barely won the last election is taking sacred and agreed upon land is certainly awful and that Trump is supporting the corrupt Netenyahu is also terrible. But it is not in the same ball park as what is happening in China to its own citizens. You do realise that millions of Palestinians have lived their entire lives in an open air prison, right?Its not just taking land. Palestinians are deprived of basic freedoms for their entire lives with no hope of change. Wait, wait, wait. Those open air prisons aren't even in Israel are they? (Or am I missing something?) You are talking about the permanent refugee camps in the surrounding Muslim countries. Because the surrounding Muslim countries refuse to allow the refugees to integrate (though an equal number of Jews fled Muslim countries and were integrated.) You cannot conflate like that as though Israel is keeping the Palestinians boxed in when they are maintained (by not allowing maintenance) by the authority of other countries.
No, he is talking about the gaza strip, one of the most densely populated areas in the world, that houses 1 million ethnic palestinians. It has the population of Hamburg with half the size of Hamburg. The area is occupied territory from Egypt, has been granted to the palestinians and is completely cut off from the world except for the border crossing into Israel and Egypt, both of which are basically closed. The Palestinians are not allowed to leave, also because Egypt does not want them. Basically, Israel has moved all Palestinians to live in areas secured like prisons with infrastructure like prisons and every now and then, they make those areas smaller.
|
On August 28 2020 01:58 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2020 01:15 IgnE wrote:On August 28 2020 00:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
When people use the "Million Uyghurs put in concentration camp" I always wonder whether it's supposed to be the same million from a couple years ago or those ones are all dead in some mass graves somewhere and it's a new million or what?
I also wonder if people have seen a US prison (or the rubble where some Palestinian's home used to be) lately when they look at the conditions afforded Uyghurs in so called concentration camps facilitating genocide.
But the biggest red flag has got to be how invested the right wing is in selling the idea that they give a damn about Muslims, let alone Muslims that aren't even US citizens or able to act as a vassal oil/resource regime. I don't know why you are taking this position. What the Chinese are doing is very bad. Orders of magnitude worse than anything the US government is doing to its citizens. Well, we have concentration camps for immigrants right now so I wouldn't be throwing stones very hard.
Saying the two situations are similar is extremely dishonest. What China is doing is orders of magnitude worse than kids in cages, as crazy as it sounds to type that.
|
On August 28 2020 01:59 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2020 01:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 28 2020 01:53 farvacola wrote:On August 28 2020 01:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 28 2020 01:22 IgnE wrote:On August 28 2020 01:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 28 2020 01:15 IgnE wrote:On August 28 2020 00:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
When people use the "Million Uyghurs put in concentration camp" I always wonder whether it's supposed to be the same million from a couple years ago or those ones are all dead in some mass graves somewhere and it's a new million or what?
I also wonder if people have seen a US prison (or the rubble where some Palestinian's home used to be) lately when they look at the conditions afforded Uyghurs in so called concentration camps facilitating genocide.
But the biggest red flag has got to be how invested the right wing is in selling the idea that they give a damn about Muslims, let alone Muslims that aren't even US citizens or able to act as a vassal oil/resource regime. I don't know why you are taking this position. + Show Spoiler +What the Chinese are doing is very bad. Orders of magnitude worse than anything the US government is doing to its citizens. Short answer is I'm not a fan of western chauvinism. I'm not a fan of mob craziness, but sometimes you have to stand in solidarity with oppressed peoples. I mean there's a discussion to be had about the radical violence that came out of part of the Uyghur population in China, how their response compares to ours post 9-11 (they've managed not to invade the wrong country and kill somewhere between 100,000 and 1,000,000 civilians halfway across the planet, so that's a point for China) and so forth. Just not for here. I've implored the people that want to constantly reference China to make a relevant thread but they've thus refused. Western chauvinism is how readily people dismiss the millions the US kills around the globe directly and indirectly and millions it incarcerates, sterilizes, forces/coerces to labor, etc in deplorable conditions as notably less significant than whatever they think China is doing to Uyghurs. Before any substantive comparisons can be made/analyzed, people have to have a solid grip on what we currently know about both. That's pretty much impossible with the western left/center. How is it that you’ve decided that the framework you’ve outlined is “non-Western?” Your insistence that interlocutors adhere to a set of assumptions before they are able to opine on certain topics is as chauvinistic as anything you’re responding to. There's some comedy in this coming after the preceding post from falling but I'm referring to an internationalist framework through a Marxist/historical materialism lens. Not anything of my own creation. There’s no such thing as an expression that exists divorced from the circumstances of its utterance. If you say it, it’s yours, so own it. You and I both know there are all sorts of glosses on the sentiments your offering that separate them from whatever theoretical orthodoxy you’re borrowing from.
I should have added:
They don't have to agree with it, just understand it enough to be able to carry on a substantive discussion.
People can share whatever thoughts they want on racism in the US, communism, or whatever else though, the whole It's very important to be informed about a discussion before posting your thoughts. part of the TL commandments doesn't apply here as far as I can tell.
|
On August 28 2020 01:58 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2020 01:15 IgnE wrote:On August 28 2020 00:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
When people use the "Million Uyghurs put in concentration camp" I always wonder whether it's supposed to be the same million from a couple years ago or those ones are all dead in some mass graves somewhere and it's a new million or what?
I also wonder if people have seen a US prison (or the rubble where some Palestinian's home used to be) lately when they look at the conditions afforded Uyghurs in so called concentration camps facilitating genocide.
But the biggest red flag has got to be how invested the right wing is in selling the idea that they give a damn about Muslims, let alone Muslims that aren't even US citizens or able to act as a vassal oil/resource regime. I don't know why you are taking this position. What the Chinese are doing is very bad. Orders of magnitude worse than anything the US government is doing to its citizens. ... This would ordinarily be whataboutism, but it's already whataboutism to bring up Uighurs in the first place. They have almost no relevance to US politics, and none in the current conversation except as a way of saying "look, this other country is doing something bad too!". (Sidenote: why are we talking about Israel/Palestine/China in the first place? Was there news about it?)
It's the endless circle. Racial injustice in the US. GH claims we need a revolution, because it's all just because of capitalism. Someone claims that capitalism works elsewhere. GH doubles down that. People then bring up the Uighurs and Venezuela to show that "communism" is no solution either. Then GH acts apalled, that it's impossible to bash China without also hating the US, because they are the worst, and also Palestine. And soon nobody talks about solving anything anymore, because now we have to define Genocide.
|
On August 28 2020 02:10 Broetchenholer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2020 01:58 Nevuk wrote:On August 28 2020 01:15 IgnE wrote:On August 28 2020 00:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
When people use the "Million Uyghurs put in concentration camp" I always wonder whether it's supposed to be the same million from a couple years ago or those ones are all dead in some mass graves somewhere and it's a new million or what?
I also wonder if people have seen a US prison (or the rubble where some Palestinian's home used to be) lately when they look at the conditions afforded Uyghurs in so called concentration camps facilitating genocide.
But the biggest red flag has got to be how invested the right wing is in selling the idea that they give a damn about Muslims, let alone Muslims that aren't even US citizens or able to act as a vassal oil/resource regime. I don't know why you are taking this position. What the Chinese are doing is very bad. Orders of magnitude worse than anything the US government is doing to its citizens. ... This would ordinarily be whataboutism, but it's already whataboutism to bring up Uighurs in the first place. They have almost no relevance to US politics, and none in the current conversation except as a way of saying "look, this other country is doing something bad too!". (Sidenote: why are we talking about Israel/Palestine/China in the first place? Was there news about it?) It's the endless circle. Racial injustice in the US. GH claims we need a revolution, because it's all just because of capitalism. Someone claims that capitalism works elsewhere. GH doubles down that. People then bring up the Uighurs and Venezuela to show that "communism" is no solution either. Then GH acts apalled, that it's impossible to bash China without also hating the US, because they are the worst, and also Palestine. And soon nobody talks about solving anything anymore, because now we have to define Genocide.
If I repeat the same argument so often you'd think you'd not screw it up in the first sentence. I have never and do not think "it's all just because of capitalism" ffs.
Just in this most recent exchange I've pointed out that I do attempt to draw attention to the influence capitalism has on ecology, racism, policing, etc. but I certainly don't try to attribute all of societies woes to capitalism or think eliminating capitalism (or racism) on their own would solve everything or even just the problems with the other.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
