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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States766 Posts
On August 15 2020 01:32 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: I have to say that I never thought the US would have a president actively working against democracy in my lifetime. That it's being done without any major freakout in the US is even stranger. I think the GOP/Republican Party is more to blame than Trump. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On August 15 2020 01:58 Nevuk wrote: Durham finally got something. An email used for renewing the Carter Page subpeona was forged. It's somewhat underwhelming, but it does make me wonder how often it happened and we never found out about it (part of why secret courts for US citizens were an awful idea). Lawandcrime writeup https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/durham-probe-nabs-first-scalp-obama-era-fbi-lawyer-will-admit-he-forged-email-used-to-spy-on-carter-page/ NYT story: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/14/us/politics/kevin-clinesmith-durham-investigation.html?smid=tw-share One might argue that a forgery like this is actually a really big deal. Combined with all the other artificiality of the Trump-Russia investigation, there's a pretty clear pattern emerging. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
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farvacola
United States18866 Posts
On August 15 2020 02:09 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: I did an essay on the 7 years war and the time up to the revolution at one time. I got the feeling that the gentlemen that later got involved in the revolution and the birth of democracy in the US would probably be forming well regulated militias if a sitting president actively tried to sabotage peoples ability to vote (by destroying critical infrastructure no less). Given that the founding fathers are viewed almost as saints I would figure that a larger part of the us public would be less "let me file a complaint against this" and more "back the fuck down from democracy or it's time to water some trees". This makes no sense, the Founding Fathers revered themselves and are revered today because of the self-perceived superiority of the government structures and legal technology they created, not to mention the relative diversity of their attitudes towards the topic of how dissent should be provided for in a post-monarchical republican nation. What's happening now is a test of those structures and technologies, and while it's accurate to say that Trump can be regarded as a uniquely trying figure in some ways, in other ways he can be viewed as a narcissistic, narrow-minded power monger of a kind that history provides plenty of examples, some of which the Founding Fathers likely had in mind when they argued over separation of powers and similar cornerstones of federal government design. Edit: I should add that there's good reason to be skeptical of the claim that the "well regulated militia" component of the 2nd Amendment refers to armament with reference to overthrowing the federal government, some historians believe it had far more to do with the Founding Fathers' fear of maintaining a standing army at all. | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2844 Posts
On August 15 2020 02:18 farvacola wrote: This makes no sense, the Founding Fathers revered themselves and are revered today because of the self-perceived superiority of the government structures and legal technology they created, not to mention the relative diversity of their attitudes towards the topic of how dissent should be provided for in a post-monarchical republican nation. What's happening now is a test of those structures and technologies, and while it's accurate to say that Trump can be regarded as a uniquely trying figure in some ways, in other ways he can be viewed as a narcissistic, narrow-minded power monger of a kind that history provides plenty of examples, some of which the Founding Fathers likely had in mind when they argued over separation of powers and similar cornerstones of federal government design. It was a long time ago and I'm by no means an expert but the image I got what that they were also practical people with huge balls. I have a hard time seeing them just accept that someone managed to break the system. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On August 15 2020 02:29 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: It was a long time ago and I'm by no means an expert but the image I got what that they were also practical people with huge balls. I have a hard time seeing them just accept that someone managed to break the system. Well, the constitution was take two, after the failed articles of confederation. They can definitely picture someone breaking it, lol. (Plenty of the federalist papers were written to patch up any holes that they envisioned as breaking it, and they are referred to more frequently than the actual text, I think). John Adams passed some crazy laws only a decade or two in that could be argued to have broken much of it (the Alien Sedition Act) They thought it would be updated a lot more frequently than it has been, though, iirc (with larger, more sweeping amendments). | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
This comes after evidence that the Russia investigation was shutting down as FBI Director Comey sprung a perjury trap on Flynn, and after Deputy Director McCabe was found to have illegally leaked classified information and lied to avoid suspicion. NYT The Hill on prior knowledge that someone altered evidence and omitted evidence in filings with the FISA court justifying domestic surveillance Kevin Clinesmith worked on the Hillary emails investigation, the Russia investigation, and the Mueller team. He worked with Strzok to send an FBI agent into a Trump-Flynn briefing, and was part of the Papadopoulos interviews. He was also noted in the Inspector General's report for sending politically charged messages in the wake of Clinton's loss Durham's United States v. Clinesmith Barr had previously stated that today would see a minor development in the Durham investigation. It's good to see a little progress before the investigation is concluded. The next up in Obama FBI FISA abuse to surveil political opponents will probably be Steven Somma, who was singled out by the IG report for being primarily responsible for some of the worst errors in Crossfire Hurricane, and interviewed some of the Steele sources. The people responsible for such a botched investigation and process, plagued with leaks, are finally being held to account. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14161 Posts
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On August 15 2020 02:40 Danglars wrote: The DoJ just announced that Kevin Clinesmith will plead guilty to making false statements. He was an FBI lawyer that lied to the Federal court to deny Page was a CIA source. He falsified documents from the CIA saying he was a source to say he was not. It made Page look like he was lying, in addition to halting any inquiries into whether Page's dealings with Russian officials were at the behest of the CIA. This comes after evidence that the Russia investigation was shutting down as FBI Director Comey sprung a perjury trap on Flynn, and after Deputy Director McCabe was found to have illegally leaked classified information and lied to avoid suspicion. NYT The Hill on prior knowledge that someone altered evidence and omitted evidence in filings with the FISA court justifying domestic surveillance Kevin Clinesmith worked on the Hillary emails investigation, the Russia investigation, and the Mueller team. He worked with Strzok to send an FBI agent into a Trump-Flynn briefing, and was part of the Papadopoulos interviews. He was also noted in the Inspector General's report for sending politically charged messages in the wake of Clinton's loss Durham's United States v. Clinesmith Barr had previously stated that today would see a minor development in the Durham investigation. It's good to see a little progress before the investigation is concluded. The next up in Obama FBI FISA abuse to surveil political opponents will probably be Steven Somma, who was singled out by the IG report for being primarily responsible for some of the worst errors in Crossfire Hurricane, and interviewed some of the Steele sources. The people responsible for such a botched investigation and process, plagued with leaks, are finally being held to account. We talked about this a little bit further up the page if you're curious (ty for more sources though). On August 15 2020 02:40 Sermokala wrote: You guys are acting like Andrew Jackson didnt just ignore the constitution and do what he wanted for the trail of tears less then 50 years into the experiment and everyone was perfectly okay with FDR going 4 terms. FDR no, Jackson, Yes. 2 terms wasn't in the constitution. It was just respect for Washington's tradition. It only got added after FDR. Jackson presented a constitutional crisis - he executed an illegal order, because no one could stop him. That's what Jackson himself admitted - he didn't care that the Supreme Court said it was illegal, because the supreme court has no army. The only remedy to it would've been impeachment, and it was popular among the US voters to do what Jackson did. Impeachment also became a lot less useful after the VP became selected by the president. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On August 15 2020 02:48 Nevuk wrote: We talked about this a little bit further up the page if you're curious (ty for more sources though). I disagree about the underwhelming, considering the sheer number of Obama-era FBI officials that we know lied to federal officials, Congress, and judges in secret courts. Watergate was likewise relative nobodies, arrested first. What we’ve got here is key players that were charged with Flynn tasks, and the Mueller investigation. NYT, though breaking the story, basically gave a Team Clinesmith spin to it. Tick tick tick. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On August 15 2020 02:57 Danglars wrote: I disagree about the underwhelming, considering the sheer number of Obama-era FBI officials that we know lied to federal officials, Congress, and judges in secret courts. Watergate was likewise relative nobodies, arrested first. What we’ve got here is key players that were charged with Flynn tasks, and the Mueller investigation. NYT, though breaking the story, basically gave a Team Clinesmith spin to it. Tick tick tick. It could definitely snowball from here, but I'm still taking a wait and see approach on the matter, purely because many of the people claiming it will be massive have made so many misleading claims on other subjects. There have been many other investigations that petered out after the first couple arrests. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On August 15 2020 03:30 Nevuk wrote: It could definitely snowball from here, but I'm still taking a wait and see approach on the matter, purely because many of the people claiming it will be massive have made so many misleading claims on other subjects. There have been many other investigations that petered out after the first couple arrests. The end of it is probably massive, so you can be right about this one in comparison to the whole. Trump’s administration was crippled by the Mueller investigation, started from Comey, and now we know somewhere between 6-10 top officials fraudulently and intentionally made it happen and kept it going. The selective leak campaign alone was massive. Page was made out to be the clear link from Trump to Putin in the pages of the NYT and the WaPo for months, while the originators had free reign to use FBI resources to achieve it. This particular guy got around, from Flynn to Page FISA to Mueller, and has Strzok/Lisa Page style texts with another agent. Trump’s seeing some justice finally, getting into office to head a department that had it in for him from before the election. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On August 15 2020 04:16 JimmiC wrote: Call my a cynic if you would like. But I think what you think now is unlikely if Barr is not the AG. The same way I doubt Flynn would be free if Barr was not AG. I don’t think setting up someone that they’ve cleared of wrongdoing in a perjury trap is a defensible part of this whole ordeal. Barr’s been effective in this regard, and his best defense is the absurd amount of evidence already made public showing abuse of power and possible bias. In a well run FBI, this inquiry should’ve been closed and filed weeks before Flynn was interviewed. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On August 15 2020 04:33 JimmiC wrote: That is the current story line of the current AG. It is just hard to believe the least honest administration ever. I wish the news media did a better job publishing the available facts and evidence showing the course of the Crossfire Hurricane part of the Trump Russia thing. Much has come out from a year ago to now to require the conclusion that many are starting to reach. Mostly from FOIA, congressional subpoenaed documents, and congressional testimony. FBI agents on the record ready to close it down until the Hail Mary landed. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
The FBI is also not exactly a stalwart democratic bastion, so most of this is GOP on GOP violence, fwiw. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On August 15 2020 04:45 Nevuk wrote: Is a perjury trap different from a normal interview with law enforcement? I don't quite get the concept. The FBI is also not exactly a stalwart democratic bastion, so most of this is GOP on GOP violence, fwiw. In an investigation, you want to find out if a crime occurred. This wasn’t criminal, just counterintelligence. Find out if Putin has agents within the Trump campaign, or was blackmailing someone in it. They had a recording of Flynn’s call, in which nothing objectionable was found. The perjury trap was knowing the phone call was above board, but still conspiring to interview him in a “friendly” style, so he doesn’t bring lawyers, to induce him to lie about a conversation that wasn’t at issue, and trap him in a crime. It reverses an important part of the justice system: trying to get people to commit crimes in the course of the investigation, instead of the investigation trying to find out something. Find out if they husband murdered or embezzled, not try to get him to lie to federal agents about the affair so you can prosecute him for that lie. For what it’s worth, the agency probably needs to be dissolved along with the FISA courts, and reimagined with more civilian oversight. There’s too much abuse here. It happens to be Obama-era officials, but it’s too much power and unaccountability for Trump or anyone else. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
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