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Too bad the top authorative figure in the us is such a complete moron that it inspires others to disrespect the danger. Btw watching morons being morons doesn't mean you should be one too.
Like, its not hard to understand why the lockdown in the US failed so horribly. It's not because the american population is stupider or more egoistical, it's a leadership failure. plain and simple.
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That's the thing about being a moron, they never question their actions and never will. You'll probably have more luck trying to teach a horse how to fly, than getting morons to change their ways. It's sad, but also kinda entertaining..
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On June 25 2020 17:46 Erasme wrote:
Too bad the top authorative figure in the us is such a complete moron that it inspires others to disrespect the danger. Btw watching morons being morons doesn't mean you should be one too.
Like, its not hard to understand why the lockdown in the US failed so horribly. It's not because the american population is stupider or more egoistical, it's a leadership failure. plain and simple.
California's economy is (was?) bigger than the UK's. Trump's got a lot of blame to shoulder, but there's plenty to go around at the state and local level in both parties.
It also took decades to make people in the US as oblivious as they are leading to things like refusing to wear masks and carrying "freedom to breathe" cards.
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I fail to see how California's economy has anything to do with one party being batshit insane blindly following the dumbest man to ever hold the mantle of president. I don't see how you can blame someone for listening to fox news or trump and behaving accordingly. 120k deaths reported, biggest # of infections today, and yet he still downplays it and slows the testing. At this point, he better go to prison after his mandat.
If you look at europe, govs made some mistakes, but you'd be hard pressed to find one that downplayed it after Italy.
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On June 25 2020 18:17 Erasme wrote:
I fail to see how California's economy has anything to do with one party being batshit insane blindly following the dumbest man to ever hold the mantle of president. I don't see how you can blame someone for listening to fox news or trump and behaving accordingly. 120k deaths reported, biggest # of infections today, and yet he still downplays it and slows the testing. At this point, he better go to prison after his mandat.
I'm not defending Trump's relentless incompetence or malicious manipulation. I'm pointing out that a state like California is economically massive enough (and Democrat controlled) to have mitigated this much better regardless of Trump and Republicans.
Also that Trump didn't spawn his voters fully grown in a vat just before the election. His voters (a majority of white women, and millions that voted for Obama btw) were adults (largely over 60) in 2016. It took decades of administrations from both parties to form the country that elected Trump. Blaming Trump for existing misses how he got where he is (which is a bipartisan effort decades in the making)
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On June 25 2020 18:31 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 18:17 Erasme wrote:
I fail to see how California's economy has anything to do with one party being batshit insane blindly following the dumbest man to ever hold the mantle of president. I don't see how you can blame someone for listening to fox news or trump and behaving accordingly. 120k deaths reported, biggest # of infections today, and yet he still downplays it and slows the testing. At this point, he better go to prison after his mandat. I'm not defending Trump's relentless incompetence or malicious manipulation. I'm pointing out that a state like California is economically massive enough (and Democrat controlled) to have mitigated this much better regardless of Trump and Republicans. Also that Trump didn't spawn his voters fully grown in a vat just before the election. His voters (a majority of white women, and millions that voted for Obama btw) were adults (largely over 60) in 2016. It took decades of administrations from both parties to form the country that elected Trump. Blaming Trump for existing misses how he got where he is (which is a bipartisan effort decades in the making)
California can't print its own currency though.
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On June 25 2020 18:31 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 18:17 Erasme wrote:
I fail to see how California's economy has anything to do with one party being batshit insane blindly following the dumbest man to ever hold the mantle of president. I don't see how you can blame someone for listening to fox news or trump and behaving accordingly. 120k deaths reported, biggest # of infections today, and yet he still downplays it and slows the testing. At this point, he better go to prison after his mandat. I'm not defending Trump's relentless incompetence or malicious manipulation. I'm pointing out that a state like California is economically massive enough (and Democrat controlled) to have mitigated this much better regardless of Trump and Republicans. Also that Trump didn't spawn his voters fully grown in a vat just before the election. His voters (a majority of white women, and millions that voted for Obama btw) were adults (largely over 60) in 2016. It took decades of administrations from both parties to form the country that elected Trump. Blaming Trump for existing misses how he got where he is (which is a bipartisan effort decades in the making)
I think the problem is the large number of deeply insecure conservative counties in California who convince themselves they are being oppressed. The state government tends to go very easy on those counties and treat them like whiny toddlers. Since they don't get to determine state policy, California lets them do their own thing a lot of the time. Same with Oregon and Washington. But it's pretty stupid and has clear consequences. It diminishes the authority of the state and causes a lot of issues when the state needs to use said authority.
The whiny counties with "don't tread on me" bumper stickers need to bend the knee
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On June 25 2020 23:52 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 18:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 25 2020 18:17 Erasme wrote:
I fail to see how California's economy has anything to do with one party being batshit insane blindly following the dumbest man to ever hold the mantle of president. I don't see how you can blame someone for listening to fox news or trump and behaving accordingly. 120k deaths reported, biggest # of infections today, and yet he still downplays it and slows the testing. At this point, he better go to prison after his mandat. I'm not defending Trump's relentless incompetence or malicious manipulation. I'm pointing out that a state like California is economically massive enough (and Democrat controlled) to have mitigated this much better regardless of Trump and Republicans. Also that Trump didn't spawn his voters fully grown in a vat just before the election. His voters (a majority of white women, and millions that voted for Obama btw) were adults (largely over 60) in 2016. It took decades of administrations from both parties to form the country that elected Trump. Blaming Trump for existing misses how he got where he is (which is a bipartisan effort decades in the making) I think the problem is the large number of deeply insecure conservative counties in California who convince themselves they are being oppressed. The state government tends to go very easy on those counties and treat them like whiny toddlers. Since they don't get to determine state policy, California lets them do their own thing a lot of the time. Same with Oregon and Washington. But it's pretty stupid and has clear consequences. It diminishes the authority of the state and causes a lot of issues when the state needs to use said authority. The whiny counties with "don't tread on me" bumper stickers need to bend the knee
The reality is that its not just red counties that kept c19 alive and spreading. There were large subsets of the cities that found not partying for a month fundamentally impossible. I know because it happened in my neighborhood. Statistically these party goers were almost certainly not Trump voters.
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There was a report out on NPR that said that the party goers that cLutZ is referring to is the main cause of the spikes in some instances (if not most). That the protests are happening and the spreading/spikes aren't from them (from what is being reported anyway) says a lot, I think. Most of the protests are aware of what they are doing and take appropriate steps to keep themselves from getting Rona as much as is allowed in the circumstances.
You can check the Johns Hopkins Rona tracking to see which states are spiking and which are flattening.
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On June 25 2020 17:08 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 15:23 cLutZ wrote:
The protests are not really a breaking point for me, because I broke way before them. I suspect most people who live in cities did or were on the verge of doing so.
Why?
Because we all saw large groups of people being non-compliant with the orders the entire lockdown. In April our household would go for our evening walks and see all sorts of things. Rugby games in the park that was supposed to be closed. Houseparties at various fraternities. "Essential workers" not wearing masks, or wearing masks such that they dont cover the mouth or nose. A widely known drug dealing location kept dealing. Everyone with a brain in America knew that the lockdown would fail because the lockdown was not enforced after a certain point.
If you aren't willing to arrest and forcibly quarantine people for violating protocols, your plan cannot work in a society that contains people who don't abide by requested social norms. I suspect that is why some places have done well, everyone has the same norms. But what am I to do when I see a houseparty in a major city? Call the police? Well that is just setting up George Floyd 2.0 on a massive scale. The cops can't let any of them out of quarantine without getting back tests. They necessarily have to arrest 50+ drunk people. And that is just 1 party. Are you going to imprison thousands of people for weeks (actually probably months if even one person has C19) because they went to a party? If not, your lockdown has failed. Why are you talking about imprisoning? First you reprimand verbally (if it's a few people), then you fine. People literally disrespecting public safety counts as a legitimate form of fining (for getting some police $$$), instead of needing to get monthly traffic ticket quotas. The corona disrespect could've been a massive boost for police actually because they could show that they care about public safety, instead of physically abusing protestors in the street. Edit: for most people I think an interaction with an authorative figure is enough to make them fall in line.
As an example of this, a few days ago there was apparently an unauthorized night party with about 100 idiots here in Munich. So the police went there, and told the people to leave. Then people left. And that is it.
That being said, the US is different. Here in Germany, there is a huge majority opinion that we are all working together to try to solve corona, and our police, while surely not perfect, is also not as broken as the US police.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On June 25 2020 17:08 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 15:23 cLutZ wrote:
The protests are not really a breaking point for me, because I broke way before them. I suspect most people who live in cities did or were on the verge of doing so.
Why?
Because we all saw large groups of people being non-compliant with the orders the entire lockdown. In April our household would go for our evening walks and see all sorts of things. Rugby games in the park that was supposed to be closed. Houseparties at various fraternities. "Essential workers" not wearing masks, or wearing masks such that they dont cover the mouth or nose. A widely known drug dealing location kept dealing. Everyone with a brain in America knew that the lockdown would fail because the lockdown was not enforced after a certain point.
If you aren't willing to arrest and forcibly quarantine people for violating protocols, your plan cannot work in a society that contains people who don't abide by requested social norms. I suspect that is why some places have done well, everyone has the same norms. But what am I to do when I see a houseparty in a major city? Call the police? Well that is just setting up George Floyd 2.0 on a massive scale. The cops can't let any of them out of quarantine without getting back tests. They necessarily have to arrest 50+ drunk people. And that is just 1 party. Are you going to imprison thousands of people for weeks (actually probably months if even one person has C19) because they went to a party? If not, your lockdown has failed. Why are you talking about imprisoning? First you reprimand verbally (if it's a few people), then you fine. People literally disrespecting public safety counts as a legitimate form of fining (for getting some police $$$), instead of needing to get monthly traffic ticket quotas. The corona disrespect could've been a massive boost for police actually because they could show that they care about public safety, instead of physically abusing protestors in the street. Edit: for most people I think an interaction with an authorative figure is enough to make them fall in line.
This is for the Netherlands, but our authorities have basically asked for weapons (most of the ones doing it are not trained police officers) because people keep breaking the rules, calling them names, becoming aggressive and even assaulting them. (they were denied but can request if it they can prove that they need it)
People definitely do not fall in line, granted the Netherlands has been on a better track for now but people definitely don't listen to the police here because they don't believe in the threat of the virus (anymore). It is reverse, people are losing respect for the police/authorities here by the day.
I dont think the US would have a better record.
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On June 26 2020 00:14 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 23:52 Mohdoo wrote:On June 25 2020 18:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 25 2020 18:17 Erasme wrote:
I fail to see how California's economy has anything to do with one party being batshit insane blindly following the dumbest man to ever hold the mantle of president. I don't see how you can blame someone for listening to fox news or trump and behaving accordingly. 120k deaths reported, biggest # of infections today, and yet he still downplays it and slows the testing. At this point, he better go to prison after his mandat. I'm not defending Trump's relentless incompetence or malicious manipulation. I'm pointing out that a state like California is economically massive enough (and Democrat controlled) to have mitigated this much better regardless of Trump and Republicans. Also that Trump didn't spawn his voters fully grown in a vat just before the election. His voters (a majority of white women, and millions that voted for Obama btw) were adults (largely over 60) in 2016. It took decades of administrations from both parties to form the country that elected Trump. Blaming Trump for existing misses how he got where he is (which is a bipartisan effort decades in the making) I think the problem is the large number of deeply insecure conservative counties in California who convince themselves they are being oppressed. The state government tends to go very easy on those counties and treat them like whiny toddlers. Since they don't get to determine state policy, California lets them do their own thing a lot of the time. Same with Oregon and Washington. But it's pretty stupid and has clear consequences. It diminishes the authority of the state and causes a lot of issues when the state needs to use said authority. The whiny counties with "don't tread on me" bumper stickers need to bend the knee The reality is that its not just red counties that kept c19 alive and spreading. There were large subsets of the cities that found not partying for a month fundamentally impossible. I know because it happened in my neighborhood. Statistically these party goers were almost certainly not Trump voters.
You're definitely right. The entitlement is across the board and not specific to right or left. I have some friends who are typically super masturbatory about "pro science!!!" who are basically complete piles of shit when it comes to obeying quarantine. Hypocrisy out the wazoo. I'm more so saying that states with the dynamic I am describing tend to have very loose governor's offices. They don't use their authority.
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On June 26 2020 00:24 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 17:08 Uldridge wrote:On June 25 2020 15:23 cLutZ wrote:
The protests are not really a breaking point for me, because I broke way before them. I suspect most people who live in cities did or were on the verge of doing so.
Why?
Because we all saw large groups of people being non-compliant with the orders the entire lockdown. In April our household would go for our evening walks and see all sorts of things. Rugby games in the park that was supposed to be closed. Houseparties at various fraternities. "Essential workers" not wearing masks, or wearing masks such that they dont cover the mouth or nose. A widely known drug dealing location kept dealing. Everyone with a brain in America knew that the lockdown would fail because the lockdown was not enforced after a certain point.
If you aren't willing to arrest and forcibly quarantine people for violating protocols, your plan cannot work in a society that contains people who don't abide by requested social norms. I suspect that is why some places have done well, everyone has the same norms. But what am I to do when I see a houseparty in a major city? Call the police? Well that is just setting up George Floyd 2.0 on a massive scale. The cops can't let any of them out of quarantine without getting back tests. They necessarily have to arrest 50+ drunk people. And that is just 1 party. Are you going to imprison thousands of people for weeks (actually probably months if even one person has C19) because they went to a party? If not, your lockdown has failed. Why are you talking about imprisoning? First you reprimand verbally (if it's a few people), then you fine. People literally disrespecting public safety counts as a legitimate form of fining (for getting some police $$$), instead of needing to get monthly traffic ticket quotas. The corona disrespect could've been a massive boost for police actually because they could show that they care about public safety, instead of physically abusing protestors in the street. Edit: for most people I think an interaction with an authorative figure is enough to make them fall in line. As an example of this, a few days ago there was apparently an unauthorized night party with about 100 idiots here in Munich. So the police went there, and told the people to leave. Then people left. And that is it. That being said, the US is different. Here in Germany, there is a huge majority opinion that we are all working together to try to solve corona, and our police, while surely not perfect, is also not as broken as the US police.
How does that even help? They all need to be quarantined for a week minimum because they gave probably been exposed. They have shown that they are not humans that have the self control to do so.
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On June 26 2020 00:44 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 00:24 Simberto wrote:On June 25 2020 17:08 Uldridge wrote:On June 25 2020 15:23 cLutZ wrote:
The protests are not really a breaking point for me, because I broke way before them. I suspect most people who live in cities did or were on the verge of doing so.
Why?
Because we all saw large groups of people being non-compliant with the orders the entire lockdown. In April our household would go for our evening walks and see all sorts of things. Rugby games in the park that was supposed to be closed. Houseparties at various fraternities. "Essential workers" not wearing masks, or wearing masks such that they dont cover the mouth or nose. A widely known drug dealing location kept dealing. Everyone with a brain in America knew that the lockdown would fail because the lockdown was not enforced after a certain point.
If you aren't willing to arrest and forcibly quarantine people for violating protocols, your plan cannot work in a society that contains people who don't abide by requested social norms. I suspect that is why some places have done well, everyone has the same norms. But what am I to do when I see a houseparty in a major city? Call the police? Well that is just setting up George Floyd 2.0 on a massive scale. The cops can't let any of them out of quarantine without getting back tests. They necessarily have to arrest 50+ drunk people. And that is just 1 party. Are you going to imprison thousands of people for weeks (actually probably months if even one person has C19) because they went to a party? If not, your lockdown has failed. Why are you talking about imprisoning? First you reprimand verbally (if it's a few people), then you fine. People literally disrespecting public safety counts as a legitimate form of fining (for getting some police $$$), instead of needing to get monthly traffic ticket quotas. The corona disrespect could've been a massive boost for police actually because they could show that they care about public safety, instead of physically abusing protestors in the street. Edit: for most people I think an interaction with an authorative figure is enough to make them fall in line. As an example of this, a few days ago there was apparently an unauthorized night party with about 100 idiots here in Munich. So the police went there, and told the people to leave. Then people left. And that is it. That being said, the US is different. Here in Germany, there is a huge majority opinion that we are all working together to try to solve corona, and our police, while surely not perfect, is also not as broken as the US police. How does that even help? They all need to be quarantined for a week minimum because they gave probably been exposed. They have shown that they are not humans that have the self control to do so.
Guess we could chip them a la Gates and monitor their movements to make sure they stay isolated.
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Adjusted for population, Florida has 650% the rate of infection as Oregon. Kate Brown, our governor, is doing a really impressive job at opening up a bunch of the economy while keeping infection rates low. I'm a big fan of hers
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On June 26 2020 00:28 Kipsate wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 17:08 Uldridge wrote:On June 25 2020 15:23 cLutZ wrote:
The protests are not really a breaking point for me, because I broke way before them. I suspect most people who live in cities did or were on the verge of doing so.
Why?
Because we all saw large groups of people being non-compliant with the orders the entire lockdown. In April our household would go for our evening walks and see all sorts of things. Rugby games in the park that was supposed to be closed. Houseparties at various fraternities. "Essential workers" not wearing masks, or wearing masks such that they dont cover the mouth or nose. A widely known drug dealing location kept dealing. Everyone with a brain in America knew that the lockdown would fail because the lockdown was not enforced after a certain point.
If you aren't willing to arrest and forcibly quarantine people for violating protocols, your plan cannot work in a society that contains people who don't abide by requested social norms. I suspect that is why some places have done well, everyone has the same norms. But what am I to do when I see a houseparty in a major city? Call the police? Well that is just setting up George Floyd 2.0 on a massive scale. The cops can't let any of them out of quarantine without getting back tests. They necessarily have to arrest 50+ drunk people. And that is just 1 party. Are you going to imprison thousands of people for weeks (actually probably months if even one person has C19) because they went to a party? If not, your lockdown has failed. Why are you talking about imprisoning? First you reprimand verbally (if it's a few people), then you fine. People literally disrespecting public safety counts as a legitimate form of fining (for getting some police $$$), instead of needing to get monthly traffic ticket quotas. The corona disrespect could've been a massive boost for police actually because they could show that they care about public safety, instead of physically abusing protestors in the street. Edit: for most people I think an interaction with an authorative figure is enough to make them fall in line. This is for the Netherlands, but our authorities have basically asked for weapons (most of the ones doing it are not trained police officers) because people keep breaking the rules, calling them names, becoming aggressive and even assaulting them. (they were denied but can request if it they can prove that they need it) People definitely do not fall in line, granted the Netherlands has been on a better track for now but people definitely don't listen to the police here because they don't believe in the threat of the virus (anymore). It is reverse, people are losing respect for the police/authorities here by the day. I dont think the US would have a better record. Considering cases keep trending downwards and there is no sign of a 2nd wave I'm willing to put that up to a small minority making an issue and not a large widespread problem.
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On June 26 2020 01:34 Mohdoo wrote:
Adjusted for population, Florida has 650% the rate of infection as Oregon. Kate Brown, our governor, is doing a really impressive job at opening up a bunch of the economy while keeping infection rates low. I'm a big fan of hers
Governor Gretchen Whitmer appears to be doing a similarly good job with leading a state's coronavirus response, and she just got her authority affirmed by the 6th Circuit in a big way that shouldn't be big at all, namely that it took a federal appeals court correcting a district court judge on the point that it is rational to consider gyms uniquely dangerous places in terms of virus transmission.
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On June 26 2020 00:46 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 00:44 cLutZ wrote:On June 26 2020 00:24 Simberto wrote:On June 25 2020 17:08 Uldridge wrote:On June 25 2020 15:23 cLutZ wrote:
The protests are not really a breaking point for me, because I broke way before them. I suspect most people who live in cities did or were on the verge of doing so.
Why?
Because we all saw large groups of people being non-compliant with the orders the entire lockdown. In April our household would go for our evening walks and see all sorts of things. Rugby games in the park that was supposed to be closed. Houseparties at various fraternities. "Essential workers" not wearing masks, or wearing masks such that they dont cover the mouth or nose. A widely known drug dealing location kept dealing. Everyone with a brain in America knew that the lockdown would fail because the lockdown was not enforced after a certain point.
If you aren't willing to arrest and forcibly quarantine people for violating protocols, your plan cannot work in a society that contains people who don't abide by requested social norms. I suspect that is why some places have done well, everyone has the same norms. But what am I to do when I see a houseparty in a major city? Call the police? Well that is just setting up George Floyd 2.0 on a massive scale. The cops can't let any of them out of quarantine without getting back tests. They necessarily have to arrest 50+ drunk people. And that is just 1 party. Are you going to imprison thousands of people for weeks (actually probably months if even one person has C19) because they went to a party? If not, your lockdown has failed. Why are you talking about imprisoning? First you reprimand verbally (if it's a few people), then you fine. People literally disrespecting public safety counts as a legitimate form of fining (for getting some police $$$), instead of needing to get monthly traffic ticket quotas. The corona disrespect could've been a massive boost for police actually because they could show that they care about public safety, instead of physically abusing protestors in the street. Edit: for most people I think an interaction with an authorative figure is enough to make them fall in line. As an example of this, a few days ago there was apparently an unauthorized night party with about 100 idiots here in Munich. So the police went there, and told the people to leave. Then people left. And that is it. That being said, the US is different. Here in Germany, there is a huge majority opinion that we are all working together to try to solve corona, and our police, while surely not perfect, is also not as broken as the US police. How does that even help? They all need to be quarantined for a week minimum because they gave probably been exposed. They have shown that they are not humans that have the self control to do so. Guess we could chip them a la Gates and monitor their movements to make sure they stay isolated.
I mean, its only funny because its so absurd, but like, not implausible. What are you supposed to do with a drunk guy who keeps shooting off fireworks at a party? The fact is we have a lot of people who's normal state is not all that different.
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