EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 2399
| Forum Index > General Forum |
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
|
ShoCkeyy
7815 Posts
| ||
|
GreenHorizons
United States23669 Posts
On June 07 2020 16:45 ShoCkeyy wrote: Again flash bangs and/or tear gas bombs near my apartment on peaceful protesters. We have no curfew currently but they still consider it an “unlawful” assembly based on the loud ass speaker phones. As igne pointed out, a lot of these mayors,councils, and governors are at the mercy of their police force. A police force that's showing wanton disregard for people's rights and any accountability for their brutality. That's a very dangerous combination imo. | ||
|
StalkerTL
212 Posts
On June 07 2020 13:26 Sermokala wrote: You referenced three teams who played miserable basketball for years intentionally for no measurable gain. People have to live in the cities during this rebuild. You can't just stop enforcing traffic laws or investigating crimes in the meantime. The Boston Celtics developed a reputation for having an extremely good coach and have developed numerous assets that are some of the best in the league.Guys like Marcus Smart have only gotten better and better every year. OKC have long been championship competitors until Durant bailed out. They pulled the plug when Paul George bailed on them and it was clear Westbrook wasn’t going to get it done for them. They have a whole treasure trove of assets lasting for like half a decade, a set of extremely skilled rookies and still were in the playoff race. That isn’t miserable basketball, that’s better than teams like San Antonio who was desperately trying to not tank when it’s clear that they can’t get it done. Philadelphia drafted Joel Embiid and Ben Simmons, a skilled core to work off. They also had a bucketload of assets that were eventually wasted away but their future is still brighter than the majority of mediocre teams who subscribe to the “rebuild without tanking” methodology. There’s huge measurable gain in all three cases. OKC is projected to be a powerhouse in the future again, Philadelphia should on paper be one of the best teams in the league and Boston is still one of the best teams in the East. In the case of the Hornets, who refused to accept that Kemba Walker wasn’t going get it done for them, they’re not only unable to make the playoffs but missed their chance to rebuild with a bucketload of assets because Michael Jordan didn’t want to tank. You say that completely overhauling the police departments is going to result in anarchy but you need to completely change the culture and get rid of all of the bad police officers. Half measures is not going to get you good results, you need a complete rebuild of who they hire and the culture inside the organisations. There’s no good thing about the current implementation of policing in America from a lack of accountability, a culture of beating down the “good cops”, ability to put pressure on local elected officials to support them no matter what they are doing and increased militarism towards anything they see as the enemy. All you have to do is see how they treats peaceful protestors and the united response police departments have in response to their officers getting charged with assault to know that the continued argument of “just a few bad apples” does not work anymore. | ||
|
ShoCkeyy
7815 Posts
| ||
|
Schmobutzen
Germany284 Posts
Also, the 'save' is very different from the 'matters', making the comparison a false equivalent. Switch the two and you will see why it gets very muddled. Still, only retorting to BLM with ALM seems kind of reactionary. Black life's are very undervalued. But the dangers of a BLM Movement are clear to me. It is one race weighed more heavily than others, which will lead to detrimental outcomes. Just look into the Evergreen protests. After a while black students commanded white students and gave them orders to do the lowly tasks. I hope BLM will not fall to this. But I doubt it, as you can see with the videos of white people sermon like taking a knee and praying for to be forgiven. I can see why that gesture could be understood in a wholesome manner. But I see it as a very reprehensible thing: showing your neck, hoping the master will spare your life. Nobody should do such a thing. But nobody should live in fear because of racist structures and racists deeds, under which a lot of blacks have to live either. That said, BLM should not be responded with ALM, but with understanding for a real plight and the warning of the trappings such a slogan can have. | ||
|
Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9776 Posts
| ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland26301 Posts
On June 07 2020 18:54 Jockmcplop wrote: One dilemma I get from this is that as a leftie I will usually support unions and the right to unionise for all workers, but these police unions in the US seem like pure evil. Me too, I was unaware of quite the depths they plummeted to and especially quite how much lobbying power they wield too. I suppose it’s a result of state power and legitimacy and a culture of hard law and order all blended into a really toxic soup. Our union does a pretty good job (work in retail), sometimes it can be frustrating morally when a colleague really should be fired but is let off on a technicality the Union rep knows about, but hey they’re doing their job Transplanted to the US police example, me in this example is not frustrated at all and actively wants misbehaving colleagues off the hook, and the union often don’t even need technicalities for it, they’ve been allowed to write the rules. Madness | ||
|
Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
Police are given an incredible array of tools and protections, which are needed - at least ostensibly - to perform their role. First among these is the all-important monopoly on violence. Opposing a cop in any way is automatically a crime, if he chooses to make it so, and the whole of society is conditioned to respect and obey them. These are phenomenal priveleges. Not even the lawmakers themselves have these powers. We delegate this enormous authority on the condition that cops act as selfless agents of the state, empowered by the people to protect and serve the people. It's abundantly clear that this is a lie, but let's set that aside for the moment. A police union, by definition, takes the symbols, equipment and authority bestowed by the state, and deploys this literal arsenal in defense of its members' private interests. This should be self-evidently unacceptable to anyone who thinks about it. Nowhere was this more clear than when hundreds of uniformed officers arrayed themselves on the front lawn of an accused murderer, facing out, and stood there while their city burned. | ||
|
Slydie
1930 Posts
On June 07 2020 20:34 Belisarius wrote: I think there's a unique problem with police unions. Police are given an incredible array of tools and protections, which are needed - at least ostensibly - to perform their role. First among these is the all-important monopoly on violence. Opposing them in any way is automatically a crime, if they choose to make it so, and the whole of society is conditioned to respect and obey them. These are phenomenal priveleges. Not even the lawmakers themselves have these powers. We delegate this enormous authority on the condition that they act as selfless agents of the state, empowered by the people to protect and serve the people. It's abundantly clear that this is a lie, but let's set that aside for the moment. A police union, by definition, takes the symbols, equipment and authority bestowed by the state, and deploys this literal arsenal in the officers' private interests. This is self-evidently unacceptable to anyone who thinks about it. Nowhere was this more clear than when hundreds of uniformed officers arrayed themselves on the front lawn of an accused murderer, facing out, and stood there while their city burned. Yes, privileges and power need to come with accountability. Whenever responsibility is not taken, large demonstrations is often the consequence. Unfortunately, the US police has gotten far too used to literally getting away with murder, so if that "right" is in danger, they will feel oppressed. | ||
|
Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On June 07 2020 18:54 Jockmcplop wrote: One dilemma I get from this is that as a leftie I will usually support unions and the right to unionise for all workers, but these police unions in the US seem like pure evil. i think all unions try to protect incompetent members of their profession by their very nature . Usually, it's benefits outweigh the costs.but in the case of police unions, an incompetent officer cannot be fired soon enough. | ||
|
Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
On June 07 2020 11:41 Sermokala wrote: Thats not how you rebuild a bad NBA team at all. Thats not how you rebuild any bad team at all. You replace the GM and coaches but you rebuild from there. You can't just hire players off the street and expect that you'll do better then you were doing before. Maybe that indeed is a shit analogy in the first place? | ||
|
Uldridge
Belgium5055 Posts
| ||
|
Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On June 07 2020 23:11 Anc13nt wrote: i think all unions try to protect incompetent members of their profession by their very nature . Usually, it's benefits outweigh the costs.but in the case of police unions, an incompetent officer cannot be fired soon enough. This definitely isn't true. As an example, it's quite easy to get fired as a paramedic (who are pretty much all unionized, at least in my region) if you demonstrate incompetence in regards to taking care of a patient. Unions will drop you like a hot potato if you were negligent or otherwise incompetent and it led to patient injury/death. I'm pretty sure this stuff is written right into the contracts they sign with the employers. | ||
|
Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On June 07 2020 23:39 Stratos_speAr wrote: This definitely isn't true. As an example, it's quite easy to get fired as a paramedic (who are pretty much all unionized, at least in my region) if you demonstrate incompetence in regards to taking care of a patient. Unions will drop you like a hot potato if you were negligent or otherwise incompetent and it led to patient injury/death. I'm pretty sure this stuff is written right into the contracts they sign with the employers. i see. but there are many professions where the stakes aren't as high and incompetence is not really punished severely. in things like the medical field I can see why they would be harder on people screwing up but it doesn't appear to be true for police unions for whatever reason. Some unions probably do have more stringent standards than others so I was a bit too general with what I said. | ||
|
grack-fields-420
5 Posts
I can't imagine his base not being massively energized by 24/7 footage of black people looting stores on Fox News, nor can I even conceive of a peaceful transition of powers should he lose in November. Even the notion that there are going to be elections in the first place seems laughable to me, there's no way he's going to let that happen. This all feels to me like the end of America as I knew it: The GOP destroyed American democracy, Trump destroyed American diplomacy, political correctness and capitalism destroyed Americans cultural exports. Seems like the rise of China as the new global hegemon is perfectly inevitable at this point. And fuck if that's not a dark outlook. | ||
|
Mohdoo
United States15742 Posts
On June 08 2020 00:42 grack-fields-420 wrote: Is there any way to look a these protests, riots and lootings and not come away with how beneficial this all is for Trump? I can't imagine his base not being massively energized by 24/7 footage of black people looting stores on Fox News, nor can I even conceive of a peaceful transition of powers should he lose in November. Even the notion that there are going to be elections in the first place seems laughable to me, there's no way he's going to let that happen. This all feels to me like the end of America as I knew it: The GOP destroyed American democracy, Trump destroyed American diplomacy, political correctness and capitalism destroyed Americans cultural exports. Seems like the rise of China as the new global hegemon is perfectly inevitable at this point. And fuck if that's not a dark outlook. This is ignoring the fact that there is a ton of support for these protests, much more than in previous generations. The idea that most cops are fundamentally bad people and are attracted to police work for the sake of having an opportunity to be awful is well understood by most people. All of my enlightened centrist friends are basically pro-ANTIFA at this point and it is pretty wild to see. | ||
|
Velr
Switzerland10854 Posts
| ||
|
farvacola
United States18855 Posts
| ||
|
Sr18
Netherlands1141 Posts
On June 08 2020 00:45 Mohdoo wrote: The idea that most cops are fundamentally bad people and are attracted to police work for the sake of having an opportunity to be awful is well understood by most people. Do you really believe a majority of the US population thinks that "most cops are fundamentally bad people" and only want to be a police officer for the "opportunity to be awful"? I highly doubt that's the case. | ||
|
PhoenixVoid
Canada32746 Posts
Some recent polling, albeit early, I've seen is showing a majority support for the protests and a decline in the approval of Trump, which to me indicates his law and order strategy isn't as effective yet. Biden's been seeing a surge in donations and publicity, and the newfound enthusiasm for voting doesn't sound like something that works to the benefit of Trump. Maybe things change if the protests drag on and the rioters grow far more violent, but so far I haven't seen this be a win for Trump. | ||
| ||
