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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
I'm curious if this actually works or if it just forces cops to ramp up ticket quotas and civil asset forfeiture so they can continue to have jobs.
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On June 07 2020 07:23 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:I'm curious if this actually works or if it just forces cops to ramp up ticket quotas and civil asset forfeiture so they can continue to have jobs.
Both ticket/fine quotas and civil asset forfeiture are gonna need legislative restraint imo
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Another thing to consider is that each city is set up differently. There are "weak" mayors and "strong" mayors. In some cities the police department kind of runs itself and in others the mayor has a lot of say over it. In some cities the city council is more like a dictatorship and in some it is more like an assembly. How cities interface with state agencies also differs. People in this thread have occasionally emphasized that change happens on the local level. I would like to see more emphasis on local elections, more emphasis on changing legislative and democratic control over local institutions, etc.
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On June 07 2020 07:41 IgnE wrote:
Another thing to consider is that each city is set up differently. There are "weak" mayors and "strong" mayors. In some cities the police department kind of runs itself and in others the mayor has a lot of say over it. In some cities the city council is more like a dictatorship and in some it is more like an assembly. How states interface with state agencies also differs. People in this thread have occasionally emphasized that change happens on the local level. I would like to see more emphasis on local elections, more emphasis on changing legislative and democratic control over local institutions, etc.
This 100%. I've also been voicing support for people to get out and change the local makeup into what they'd rather have represent them. The local level affects them a lot more than what the president can do since states have some autonomy. And if the senators and representatives aren't doing their jobs, vote them out the next cycle.
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On June 07 2020 06:18 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2020 04:57 Sermokala wrote:
It should be acknowledged about how shit of a job being a cop is and why its impossible to recruit people for an inherently mentally and emotionally damaging job. The pay is terrible the training is minimal theres no institutional accountability and everyone you meet hates you.
Half of them or more have to work nights and never see their families and are constantly squeezed by cut budgets and obliged overtime. Then when they see dead bodies or have to tell a family member their kid or parent is dead the only people they can talk to is other cops.
Police departments need a lot more money and to expect people to serve a lot fewer roles. You can renovate the house a lot quicker and a lot cheaper then just burning it down. It does suck for the good cops. It is a very trying job. Every call has potential danger, and all the blood and gore must wear. The trouble with the current era of reform is the police's image. It's all George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Eric Gardner etc. It's all Buffalo, NYPD, LAPD, Minneapolis, DC(mix of agencies) acting cruel towards protesters and journalists. No amount of money spent gives anyone the idea that it will be spent well. Bad cops can be virtually unfirable and tarnish the name of the others. They also get the increased pay and/or benefits. I don't want police pay to increase until politicians and unions change their behavior to confront the lapses. I'm opposed to abolishing and starting over except as a means to put more options of reforming what's currently there on the table. The main reforms should be decertifying the worst police unions ( See one writeup here) and changing legislatively/judicially the doctrine of qualified immunity ( Bipartisan Legislation is currently being introduced, will hopefully be debated soon.Dissolving police departments in this heat of passion can end very very badly. Particularly for minority businesses and minority residences.
I completely agree. I think dissolving police departments without having a future plan of maintaining a civil society is pretty rash.
However, I do completely agree with the idea that police departments have to be wiped out at this point because it is clear that the good apples can’t do anything about the bad apples. Like that NYPD cop that refused to arrest innocent people to meet quotas only to get hazed and bullied to the point of getting illegitimately sent to a mental asylum.
A lot of these police departments need to be rebuilt like a bad NBA team where you ditch the GM, coach and roster because the situation is untenable.
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Northern Ireland25230 Posts
On June 07 2020 05:10 mikedebo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2020 04:16 Wombat_NI wrote:
As an aside I think it’d be nice to have a US Politics Megathread reading list. Plenty of books and articles that have helped inform and alter my worldview from this thread over the years but plenty I’ve missed too. Hi! Sorry for the inline necro, but I saw this idea yesterday and really liked it. As a lurker who occasionally jumps in and makes a smartass remark, I have really enjoyed coming back to this thread because compared to pretty much everywhere else I've been on the web, I feel like there's a lot of hard-work good-faith debate that happens in here. (I feel that due to a combination of both position and forum moderation, some posters probably bear more of the burden of making sure the thread stays on track while still being productively challenging than others.) One of the best things I've gotten from this thread has been a series of viewpoints and associated resources that I've been able to look into and start to learn from myself. As an example, early on I picked up this book because of zlefin, and I've poked around Paulo Freire's work due to GH's mentioning it several times. I think it would be pretty cool to have a link in the OP to TL politics "reading list" (from this and potential other politics threads) that we all maintain together. I'd be happy to start a Google doc that we can all request edit on or something, but if there's a more TL-appropriate wiki (like Liquipedia) that we all already have access to, perhaps someone could steer me in that direction and I could start something there? Anyone in for this? I'm happy to do the bulk of the 'admin work' on it.
Hello semi-lurker, glad you liked the idea.
I’ve really fallen out of the habit of reading properly these days, having skated along with a ‘oh I think I get this idea’ Cliff notes kind of approach. Am trying to get back into properly reading and this thread features quite heavily in my Goodreads list.
Hadn’t even heard of Paolo Freire prior to him being mentioned by GH and like yourself have really only poked around. Mere poking made me rather sad that I hadn’t heard of him and he wasn’t more widely known.
I’d happily contribute myself a little down the line for sure. I’m not the most organised or diligent person so would rather suck at actually being the maintenance.
Last book I can recall that might be of intellectual interest to the thread is Julius Evola’s Ride the Tiger. I’m not sure if it is dense and occasionally irritating, or I’m just out of practice reading properly for long periods of time.
It’s a book that was recommended to me by an open Fascist, at a time I was in various dark holes on the internet trying to figure why people believed what they did, and indeed what they believed.
You find out interesting things when you delve pretty off the beaten path and talk to people one on one, quite a lot of Fascists did not gravitate there gradually from the centre, but had radical left views at one point.
They can flip back too, as said individual did actually.
I wouldn’t say obsessed but close to it, this question really did bug me a lot. Mostly from interactions but in reading but some of these people were reading this dalliance with seemingly diametrically opposes philosophies in relatively quick periods of time stems from a consistent disenfranchisement and hatred of modern consumerist neoliberal society.
Gave me some insight anyway, tools that certainly aren’t universally applicable but I’ve been a lot more successful since doing these deep dives in convincing people to turn away from such politics than I was before.
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On June 07 2020 09:24 StalkerTL wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2020 06:18 Danglars wrote:On June 07 2020 04:57 Sermokala wrote:
It should be acknowledged about how shit of a job being a cop is and why its impossible to recruit people for an inherently mentally and emotionally damaging job. The pay is terrible the training is minimal theres no institutional accountability and everyone you meet hates you.
Half of them or more have to work nights and never see their families and are constantly squeezed by cut budgets and obliged overtime. Then when they see dead bodies or have to tell a family member their kid or parent is dead the only people they can talk to is other cops.
Police departments need a lot more money and to expect people to serve a lot fewer roles. You can renovate the house a lot quicker and a lot cheaper then just burning it down. It does suck for the good cops. It is a very trying job. Every call has potential danger, and all the blood and gore must wear. The trouble with the current era of reform is the police's image. It's all George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Eric Gardner etc. It's all Buffalo, NYPD, LAPD, Minneapolis, DC(mix of agencies) acting cruel towards protesters and journalists. No amount of money spent gives anyone the idea that it will be spent well. Bad cops can be virtually unfirable and tarnish the name of the others. They also get the increased pay and/or benefits. I don't want police pay to increase until politicians and unions change their behavior to confront the lapses. I'm opposed to abolishing and starting over except as a means to put more options of reforming what's currently there on the table. The main reforms should be decertifying the worst police unions ( See one writeup here) and changing legislatively/judicially the doctrine of qualified immunity ( Bipartisan Legislation is currently being introduced, will hopefully be debated soon.Dissolving police departments in this heat of passion can end very very badly. Particularly for minority businesses and minority residences. I completely agree. I think dissolving police departments without having a future plan of maintaining a civil society is pretty rash. However, I do completely agree with the idea that police departments have to be wiped out at this point because it is clear that the good apples can’t do anything about the bad apples. Like that NYPD cop that refused to arrest innocent people to meet quotas only to get hazed and bullied to the point of getting illegitimately sent to a mental asylum. A lot of these police departments need to be rebuilt like a bad NBA team where you ditch the GM, coach and roster because the situation is untenable.
Thats not how you rebuild a bad NBA team at all. Thats not how you rebuild any bad team at all. You replace the GM and coaches but you rebuild from there. You can't just hire players off the street and expect that you'll do better then you were doing before.
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On June 07 2020 11:41 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2020 09:24 StalkerTL wrote:On June 07 2020 06:18 Danglars wrote:On June 07 2020 04:57 Sermokala wrote:
It should be acknowledged about how shit of a job being a cop is and why its impossible to recruit people for an inherently mentally and emotionally damaging job. The pay is terrible the training is minimal theres no institutional accountability and everyone you meet hates you.
Half of them or more have to work nights and never see their families and are constantly squeezed by cut budgets and obliged overtime. Then when they see dead bodies or have to tell a family member their kid or parent is dead the only people they can talk to is other cops.
Police departments need a lot more money and to expect people to serve a lot fewer roles. You can renovate the house a lot quicker and a lot cheaper then just burning it down. It does suck for the good cops. It is a very trying job. Every call has potential danger, and all the blood and gore must wear. The trouble with the current era of reform is the police's image. It's all George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Eric Gardner etc. It's all Buffalo, NYPD, LAPD, Minneapolis, DC(mix of agencies) acting cruel towards protesters and journalists. No amount of money spent gives anyone the idea that it will be spent well. Bad cops can be virtually unfirable and tarnish the name of the others. They also get the increased pay and/or benefits. I don't want police pay to increase until politicians and unions change their behavior to confront the lapses. I'm opposed to abolishing and starting over except as a means to put more options of reforming what's currently there on the table. The main reforms should be decertifying the worst police unions ( See one writeup here) and changing legislatively/judicially the doctrine of qualified immunity ( Bipartisan Legislation is currently being introduced, will hopefully be debated soon.Dissolving police departments in this heat of passion can end very very badly. Particularly for minority businesses and minority residences. I completely agree. I think dissolving police departments without having a future plan of maintaining a civil society is pretty rash. However, I do completely agree with the idea that police departments have to be wiped out at this point because it is clear that the good apples can’t do anything about the bad apples. Like that NYPD cop that refused to arrest innocent people to meet quotas only to get hazed and bullied to the point of getting illegitimately sent to a mental asylum. A lot of these police departments need to be rebuilt like a bad NBA team where you ditch the GM, coach and roster because the situation is untenable. Thats not how you rebuild a bad NBA team at all. Thats not how you rebuild any bad team at all. You replace the GM and coaches but you rebuild from there. You can't just hire players off the street and expect that you'll do better then you were doing before.
And yet 57 people all showed solidarity with the bags of dirt associated with the old man's assault. You aren't recognizing that there is a very large number of extremely bad people in police forces right now. They joined because of what being a police officer is in our current culture. They need to go.
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On June 07 2020 05:10 mikedebo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2020 04:16 Wombat_NI wrote:
As an aside I think it’d be nice to have a US Politics Megathread reading list. Plenty of books and articles that have helped inform and alter my worldview from this thread over the years but plenty I’ve missed too. Hi! Sorry for the inline necro, but I saw this idea yesterday and really liked it. As a lurker who occasionally jumps in and makes a smartass remark, I have really enjoyed coming back to this thread because compared to pretty much everywhere else I've been on the web, I feel like there's a lot of hard-work good-faith debate that happens in here. (I feel that due to a combination of both position and forum moderation, some posters probably bear more of the burden of making sure the thread stays on track while still being productively challenging than others.) One of the best things I've gotten from this thread has been a series of viewpoints and associated resources that I've been able to look into and start to learn from myself. As an example, early on I picked up this book because of zlefin, and I've poked around Paulo Freire's work due to GH's mentioning it several times. I think it would be pretty cool to have a link in the OP to TL politics "reading list" (from this and potential other politics threads) that we all maintain together. I'd be happy to start a Google doc that we can all request edit on or something, but if there's a more TL-appropriate wiki (like Liquipedia) that we all already have access to, perhaps someone could steer me in that direction and I could start something there? Anyone in for this? I'm happy to do the bulk of the 'admin work' on it.
Seems like a good idea. Not optimistic about people actually reading, but should be a good resource.
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On June 07 2020 12:05 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2020 05:10 mikedebo wrote:On June 06 2020 04:16 Wombat_NI wrote:
As an aside I think it’d be nice to have a US Politics Megathread reading list. Plenty of books and articles that have helped inform and alter my worldview from this thread over the years but plenty I’ve missed too. Hi! Sorry for the inline necro, but I saw this idea yesterday and really liked it. As a lurker who occasionally jumps in and makes a smartass remark, I have really enjoyed coming back to this thread because compared to pretty much everywhere else I've been on the web, I feel like there's a lot of hard-work good-faith debate that happens in here. (I feel that due to a combination of both position and forum moderation, some posters probably bear more of the burden of making sure the thread stays on track while still being productively challenging than others.) One of the best things I've gotten from this thread has been a series of viewpoints and associated resources that I've been able to look into and start to learn from myself. As an example, early on I picked up this book because of zlefin, and I've poked around Paulo Freire's work due to GH's mentioning it several times. I think it would be pretty cool to have a link in the OP to TL politics "reading list" (from this and potential other politics threads) that we all maintain together. I'd be happy to start a Google doc that we can all request edit on or something, but if there's a more TL-appropriate wiki (like Liquipedia) that we all already have access to, perhaps someone could steer me in that direction and I could start something there? Anyone in for this? I'm happy to do the bulk of the 'admin work' on it. Seems like a good idea. Not optimistic about people actually reading, but should be a good resource.
I would definitely read something Danglars or Sermokala posted saying "I honestly think if you read this you'll agree with me".
Nettles would be a wild ride but likely just Youtube videos.
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On June 07 2020 12:07 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2020 12:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2020 05:10 mikedebo wrote:On June 06 2020 04:16 Wombat_NI wrote:
As an aside I think it’d be nice to have a US Politics Megathread reading list. Plenty of books and articles that have helped inform and alter my worldview from this thread over the years but plenty I’ve missed too. Hi! Sorry for the inline necro, but I saw this idea yesterday and really liked it. As a lurker who occasionally jumps in and makes a smartass remark, I have really enjoyed coming back to this thread because compared to pretty much everywhere else I've been on the web, I feel like there's a lot of hard-work good-faith debate that happens in here. (I feel that due to a combination of both position and forum moderation, some posters probably bear more of the burden of making sure the thread stays on track while still being productively challenging than others.) One of the best things I've gotten from this thread has been a series of viewpoints and associated resources that I've been able to look into and start to learn from myself. As an example, early on I picked up this book because of zlefin, and I've poked around Paulo Freire's work due to GH's mentioning it several times. I think it would be pretty cool to have a link in the OP to TL politics "reading list" (from this and potential other politics threads) that we all maintain together. I'd be happy to start a Google doc that we can all request edit on or something, but if there's a more TL-appropriate wiki (like Liquipedia) that we all already have access to, perhaps someone could steer me in that direction and I could start something there? Anyone in for this? I'm happy to do the bulk of the 'admin work' on it. Seems like a good idea. Not optimistic about people actually reading, but should be a good resource. I would definitely read something Danglars or Sermokala posted saying "I honestly think if you read this you'll agree with me". Nettles would be a wild ride but likely just Youtube videos.
I'd also read anything IgnE or Neb suggested as well. Hell, I'd throw in BerserkSword in there.
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On June 07 2020 12:07 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2020 12:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2020 05:10 mikedebo wrote:On June 06 2020 04:16 Wombat_NI wrote:
As an aside I think it’d be nice to have a US Politics Megathread reading list. Plenty of books and articles that have helped inform and alter my worldview from this thread over the years but plenty I’ve missed too. Hi! Sorry for the inline necro, but I saw this idea yesterday and really liked it. As a lurker who occasionally jumps in and makes a smartass remark, I have really enjoyed coming back to this thread because compared to pretty much everywhere else I've been on the web, I feel like there's a lot of hard-work good-faith debate that happens in here. (I feel that due to a combination of both position and forum moderation, some posters probably bear more of the burden of making sure the thread stays on track while still being productively challenging than others.) One of the best things I've gotten from this thread has been a series of viewpoints and associated resources that I've been able to look into and start to learn from myself. As an example, early on I picked up this book because of zlefin, and I've poked around Paulo Freire's work due to GH's mentioning it several times. I think it would be pretty cool to have a link in the OP to TL politics "reading list" (from this and potential other politics threads) that we all maintain together. I'd be happy to start a Google doc that we can all request edit on or something, but if there's a more TL-appropriate wiki (like Liquipedia) that we all already have access to, perhaps someone could steer me in that direction and I could start something there? Anyone in for this? I'm happy to do the bulk of the 'admin work' on it. Seems like a good idea. Not optimistic about people actually reading, but should be a good resource. I would definitely read something Danglars or Sermokala posted saying "I honestly think if you read this you'll agree with me". Nettles would be a wild ride but likely just Youtube videos.
I imagine just the titles and authors would be pretty informative to the origins of their worldviews.
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On June 07 2020 11:53 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2020 11:41 Sermokala wrote:On June 07 2020 09:24 StalkerTL wrote:On June 07 2020 06:18 Danglars wrote:On June 07 2020 04:57 Sermokala wrote:
It should be acknowledged about how shit of a job being a cop is and why its impossible to recruit people for an inherently mentally and emotionally damaging job. The pay is terrible the training is minimal theres no institutional accountability and everyone you meet hates you.
Half of them or more have to work nights and never see their families and are constantly squeezed by cut budgets and obliged overtime. Then when they see dead bodies or have to tell a family member their kid or parent is dead the only people they can talk to is other cops.
Police departments need a lot more money and to expect people to serve a lot fewer roles. You can renovate the house a lot quicker and a lot cheaper then just burning it down. It does suck for the good cops. It is a very trying job. Every call has potential danger, and all the blood and gore must wear. The trouble with the current era of reform is the police's image. It's all George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Eric Gardner etc. It's all Buffalo, NYPD, LAPD, Minneapolis, DC(mix of agencies) acting cruel towards protesters and journalists. No amount of money spent gives anyone the idea that it will be spent well. Bad cops can be virtually unfirable and tarnish the name of the others. They also get the increased pay and/or benefits. I don't want police pay to increase until politicians and unions change their behavior to confront the lapses. I'm opposed to abolishing and starting over except as a means to put more options of reforming what's currently there on the table. The main reforms should be decertifying the worst police unions ( See one writeup here) and changing legislatively/judicially the doctrine of qualified immunity ( Bipartisan Legislation is currently being introduced, will hopefully be debated soon.Dissolving police departments in this heat of passion can end very very badly. Particularly for minority businesses and minority residences. I completely agree. I think dissolving police departments without having a future plan of maintaining a civil society is pretty rash. However, I do completely agree with the idea that police departments have to be wiped out at this point because it is clear that the good apples can’t do anything about the bad apples. Like that NYPD cop that refused to arrest innocent people to meet quotas only to get hazed and bullied to the point of getting illegitimately sent to a mental asylum. A lot of these police departments need to be rebuilt like a bad NBA team where you ditch the GM, coach and roster because the situation is untenable. Thats not how you rebuild a bad NBA team at all. Thats not how you rebuild any bad team at all. You replace the GM and coaches but you rebuild from there. You can't just hire players off the street and expect that you'll do better then you were doing before. And yet 57 people all showed solidarity with the bags of dirt associated with the old man's assault. You aren't recognizing that there is a very large number of extremely bad people in police forces right now. They joined because of what being a police officer is in our current culture. They need to go.
You mistake the issue at hand. If we are continuing with the "NBA team rebuild" concept the issue with the team isn't the terrible performing players or the coaches but the fundamental culture within the team.
They didn't stop to help the guy when he was on the ground because they weren't told to when they were being trained and their "coach" never told them to help people. One or two people are a problem of people 57 people is a problem with a team.
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On June 07 2020 12:30 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2020 11:53 Mohdoo wrote:On June 07 2020 11:41 Sermokala wrote:On June 07 2020 09:24 StalkerTL wrote:On June 07 2020 06:18 Danglars wrote:On June 07 2020 04:57 Sermokala wrote:
It should be acknowledged about how shit of a job being a cop is and why its impossible to recruit people for an inherently mentally and emotionally damaging job. The pay is terrible the training is minimal theres no institutional accountability and everyone you meet hates you.
Half of them or more have to work nights and never see their families and are constantly squeezed by cut budgets and obliged overtime. Then when they see dead bodies or have to tell a family member their kid or parent is dead the only people they can talk to is other cops.
Police departments need a lot more money and to expect people to serve a lot fewer roles. You can renovate the house a lot quicker and a lot cheaper then just burning it down. It does suck for the good cops. It is a very trying job. Every call has potential danger, and all the blood and gore must wear. The trouble with the current era of reform is the police's image. It's all George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Eric Gardner etc. It's all Buffalo, NYPD, LAPD, Minneapolis, DC(mix of agencies) acting cruel towards protesters and journalists. No amount of money spent gives anyone the idea that it will be spent well. Bad cops can be virtually unfirable and tarnish the name of the others. They also get the increased pay and/or benefits. I don't want police pay to increase until politicians and unions change their behavior to confront the lapses. I'm opposed to abolishing and starting over except as a means to put more options of reforming what's currently there on the table. The main reforms should be decertifying the worst police unions ( See one writeup here) and changing legislatively/judicially the doctrine of qualified immunity ( Bipartisan Legislation is currently being introduced, will hopefully be debated soon.Dissolving police departments in this heat of passion can end very very badly. Particularly for minority businesses and minority residences. I completely agree. I think dissolving police departments without having a future plan of maintaining a civil society is pretty rash. However, I do completely agree with the idea that police departments have to be wiped out at this point because it is clear that the good apples can’t do anything about the bad apples. Like that NYPD cop that refused to arrest innocent people to meet quotas only to get hazed and bullied to the point of getting illegitimately sent to a mental asylum. A lot of these police departments need to be rebuilt like a bad NBA team where you ditch the GM, coach and roster because the situation is untenable. Thats not how you rebuild a bad NBA team at all. Thats not how you rebuild any bad team at all. You replace the GM and coaches but you rebuild from there. You can't just hire players off the street and expect that you'll do better then you were doing before. And yet 57 people all showed solidarity with the bags of dirt associated with the old man's assault. You aren't recognizing that there is a very large number of extremely bad people in police forces right now. They joined because of what being a police officer is in our current culture. They need to go. You mistake the issue at hand. If we are continuing with the "NBA team rebuild" concept the issue with the team isn't the terrible performing players or the coaches but the fundamental culture within the team. They didn't stop to help the guy when he was on the ground because they weren't told to when they were being trained and their "coach" never told them to help people. One or two people are a problem of people 57 people is a problem with a team.
I think the issue was the culture/leadership *at first*. But over the last however many years, police forces have attracted fundamentally terrible people who will never be good people. I reject the idea that those 57 people were just the victims of hierarchy. It isn't just police institutions that are bad, the institution is so bad that it attracts people who have always been bad.
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On June 07 2020 12:34 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2020 12:30 Sermokala wrote:On June 07 2020 11:53 Mohdoo wrote:On June 07 2020 11:41 Sermokala wrote:On June 07 2020 09:24 StalkerTL wrote:On June 07 2020 06:18 Danglars wrote:On June 07 2020 04:57 Sermokala wrote:
It should be acknowledged about how shit of a job being a cop is and why its impossible to recruit people for an inherently mentally and emotionally damaging job. The pay is terrible the training is minimal theres no institutional accountability and everyone you meet hates you.
Half of them or more have to work nights and never see their families and are constantly squeezed by cut budgets and obliged overtime. Then when they see dead bodies or have to tell a family member their kid or parent is dead the only people they can talk to is other cops.
Police departments need a lot more money and to expect people to serve a lot fewer roles. You can renovate the house a lot quicker and a lot cheaper then just burning it down. It does suck for the good cops. It is a very trying job. Every call has potential danger, and all the blood and gore must wear. The trouble with the current era of reform is the police's image. It's all George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Eric Gardner etc. It's all Buffalo, NYPD, LAPD, Minneapolis, DC(mix of agencies) acting cruel towards protesters and journalists. No amount of money spent gives anyone the idea that it will be spent well. Bad cops can be virtually unfirable and tarnish the name of the others. They also get the increased pay and/or benefits. I don't want police pay to increase until politicians and unions change their behavior to confront the lapses. I'm opposed to abolishing and starting over except as a means to put more options of reforming what's currently there on the table. The main reforms should be decertifying the worst police unions ( See one writeup here) and changing legislatively/judicially the doctrine of qualified immunity ( Bipartisan Legislation is currently being introduced, will hopefully be debated soon.Dissolving police departments in this heat of passion can end very very badly. Particularly for minority businesses and minority residences. I completely agree. I think dissolving police departments without having a future plan of maintaining a civil society is pretty rash. However, I do completely agree with the idea that police departments have to be wiped out at this point because it is clear that the good apples can’t do anything about the bad apples. Like that NYPD cop that refused to arrest innocent people to meet quotas only to get hazed and bullied to the point of getting illegitimately sent to a mental asylum. A lot of these police departments need to be rebuilt like a bad NBA team where you ditch the GM, coach and roster because the situation is untenable. Thats not how you rebuild a bad NBA team at all. Thats not how you rebuild any bad team at all. You replace the GM and coaches but you rebuild from there. You can't just hire players off the street and expect that you'll do better then you were doing before. And yet 57 people all showed solidarity with the bags of dirt associated with the old man's assault. You aren't recognizing that there is a very large number of extremely bad people in police forces right now. They joined because of what being a police officer is in our current culture. They need to go. You mistake the issue at hand. If we are continuing with the "NBA team rebuild" concept the issue with the team isn't the terrible performing players or the coaches but the fundamental culture within the team. They didn't stop to help the guy when he was on the ground because they weren't told to when they were being trained and their "coach" never told them to help people. One or two people are a problem of people 57 people is a problem with a team. I think the issue was the culture/leadership *at first*. But over the last however many years, police forces have attracted fundamentally terrible people who will never be good people. I reject the idea that those 57 people were just the victims of hierarchy. It isn't just police institutions that are bad, the institution is so bad that it attracts people who have always been bad.
It's a corrupting institution for a variety of reasons. It attracts assholes and petty tyrants, but it also molds good people into cops.
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When you bring in a new GM and/or coach, the system they will run will be completely different to previous system. Running basically the same roster will not get you good results because they’re not suited for the task a lot of the time.
Unless you are running with a team with actually good players like Golden State had when they brought in Steve Kerr, you’re better off pulling an OKC (trading two star players for young assets + draft picks, taking a skilled vet seen as championship dead weight for assets + new culture building), Boston (traded big 3 for a million assets, brought in fresh coach straight from college) or Philadelphia (wipe whole roster and front office clean for a fresh start).
If you don’t do that, you end up like the Hornets where they are in mediocre purgatory because they’re refusing to tank when it’s clear they can’t get it done. When stuff is clearly not working, blowing it up is absolutely a valid strategy. In the case of the police force, they’re so rotten top to bottom that blowing it up and rebuilding via strict background checks for past abuses from other police departments (just an example) is the least they can do. The GM/coaches are bad, the culture is bad and the players are bad. Why would you not blow this team up.
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On June 07 2020 12:07 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2020 12:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 07 2020 05:10 mikedebo wrote:On June 06 2020 04:16 Wombat_NI wrote:
As an aside I think it’d be nice to have a US Politics Megathread reading list. Plenty of books and articles that have helped inform and alter my worldview from this thread over the years but plenty I’ve missed too. Hi! Sorry for the inline necro, but I saw this idea yesterday and really liked it. As a lurker who occasionally jumps in and makes a smartass remark, I have really enjoyed coming back to this thread because compared to pretty much everywhere else I've been on the web, I feel like there's a lot of hard-work good-faith debate that happens in here. (I feel that due to a combination of both position and forum moderation, some posters probably bear more of the burden of making sure the thread stays on track while still being productively challenging than others.) One of the best things I've gotten from this thread has been a series of viewpoints and associated resources that I've been able to look into and start to learn from myself. As an example, early on I picked up this book because of zlefin, and I've poked around Paulo Freire's work due to GH's mentioning it several times. I think it would be pretty cool to have a link in the OP to TL politics "reading list" (from this and potential other politics threads) that we all maintain together. I'd be happy to start a Google doc that we can all request edit on or something, but if there's a more TL-appropriate wiki (like Liquipedia) that we all already have access to, perhaps someone could steer me in that direction and I could start something there? Anyone in for this? I'm happy to do the bulk of the 'admin work' on it. Seems like a good idea. Not optimistic about people actually reading, but should be a good resource. I would definitely read something Danglars or Sermokala posted saying "I honestly think if you read this you'll agree with me". Nettles would be a wild ride but likely just Youtube videos.
Just one long PragerU playlist. /s
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On June 07 2020 12:59 StalkerTL wrote:
When you bring in a new GM and/or coach, the system they will run will be completely different to previous system. Running basically the same roster will not get you good results because they’re not suited for the task a lot of the time.
Unless you are running with a team with actually good players like Golden State had when they brought in Steve Kerr, you’re better off pulling an OKC (trading two star players for young assets + draft picks, taking a skilled vet seen as championship dead weight for assets + new culture building), Boston (traded big 3 for a million assets, brought in fresh coach straight from college) or Philadelphia (wipe whole roster and front office clean for a fresh start).
If you don’t do that, you end up like the Hornets where they are in mediocre purgatory because they’re refusing to tank when it’s clear they can’t get it done. When stuff is clearly not working, blowing it up is absolutely a valid strategy. In the case of the police force, they’re so rotten top to bottom that blowing it up and rebuilding via strict background checks for past abuses from other police departments (just an example) is the least they can do. The GM/coaches are bad, the culture is bad and the players are bad. Why would you not blow this team up.
You referenced three teams who played miserable basketball for years intentionally for no measurable gain. People have to live in the cities during this rebuild. You can't just stop enforcing traffic laws or investigating crimes in the meantime.
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Oo Hillary to testify on the emails case
I hope this gonna be one juicy lucy like the rest of 2020
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On June 07 2020 13:26 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2020 12:59 StalkerTL wrote:
When you bring in a new GM and/or coach, the system they will run will be completely different to previous system. Running basically the same roster will not get you good results because they’re not suited for the task a lot of the time.
Unless you are running with a team with actually good players like Golden State had when they brought in Steve Kerr, you’re better off pulling an OKC (trading two star players for young assets + draft picks, taking a skilled vet seen as championship dead weight for assets + new culture building), Boston (traded big 3 for a million assets, brought in fresh coach straight from college) or Philadelphia (wipe whole roster and front office clean for a fresh start).
If you don’t do that, you end up like the Hornets where they are in mediocre purgatory because they’re refusing to tank when it’s clear they can’t get it done. When stuff is clearly not working, blowing it up is absolutely a valid strategy. In the case of the police force, they’re so rotten top to bottom that blowing it up and rebuilding via strict background checks for past abuses from other police departments (just an example) is the least they can do. The GM/coaches are bad, the culture is bad and the players are bad. Why would you not blow this team up. You referenced three teams who played miserable basketball for years intentionally for no measurable gain. People have to live in the cities during this rebuild. You can't just stop enforcing traffic laws or investigating crimes in the meantime.
You don't need a gun to enforce traffic laws.
Most crimes (especially the variety that people expect police to investigate) happen because people's basic needs aren't being met. Having better social systems as a safety net for at risk people would prevent that. More and better social workers or mental health service providers goes a long way here.
Since people are talking about reading, this is a good starting FAQ from a Minneapolis based organization that wants to abolish police: https://www.mpd150.com/faq/
This is what I presume GH means when he says things like abolishing the police and healthcare are linked. If people can get the mental and physical help they need, they're far less likely to resort to crime. But our country just lets these people fall by the wayside and give the police more and more money to "handle" the people that our society has failed.
edit: Also it's worth noting that the NYPD went on strike during 2014/2015 and during that time period crime rates fell source
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EPT
