EPTWe do have completely bullshit zero tolerance rules in school. Where if you're getting bullied and you fight back or defend yourself you and your bully both get suspended. Treat the victim the same as the predator, makes a lot of sense! I've heard teachers and counselors either can't or won't intervene sometimes so nothing actually gets addressed or resolved.
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 233
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OuchyDathurts
United States4588 Posts
We do have completely bullshit zero tolerance rules in school. Where if you're getting bullied and you fight back or defend yourself you and your bully both get suspended. Treat the victim the same as the predator, makes a lot of sense! I've heard teachers and counselors either can't or won't intervene sometimes so nothing actually gets addressed or resolved. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9561 Posts
On May 31 2018 09:13 GreenHorizons wrote: It's not like he didn't like bullying though. He just didn't like people pointing out he was an idiot racist, the few people who knew of him anyway. I mean obviously we need better conflict resolution/human decency taught at every level, but this isn't just an unfortunate outcast who got bullied. He was a shitty person who people didn't like and he felt entitled to them liking him despite being a shitty person. Given I believe his shittyness is largely a result of our society rather than specific personal defects. When they didn't, he decided he should shoot random people that represented stand-ins for them. It's a frequent enough occurrence that it speaks to something more specific than "bullying". It's also fair to presume that this often manifests in less dramatic/tragic ways than mass shootings. Outcast cliques (namely white supremacist groups) are scooping these people up wherever they can and they are being emboldened everywhere, all the way up to the President. In all likelihood it was both. The approach we use for schooling in most of the Western world isn't really fit for purpose. Throw a bunch of kids together with nothing in common other than age and hope the results are good. Sure, you can educate them that way (I don't see why we should) but its unsurprising that the results leave some minority of these kids completely messed up. Obviously any individual case of school shooting is the shooters responsibility and no-one else's, but when you add them all together and then look at other factors like the mental health of school leavers its pretty obvious that the current system is very damaging for some kids. The fact that there is no way out of that system, it can be like 10 years of mental torture. Its a shame that there is no political benefit for reforming or it would have been done years ago. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23066 Posts
On May 31 2018 18:36 Jockmcplop wrote: In all likelihood it was both. The approach we use for schooling in most of the Western world isn't really fit for purpose. Throw a bunch of kids together with nothing in common other than age and hope the results are good. Sure, you can educate them that way (I don't see why we should) but its unsurprising that the results leave some minority of these kids completely messed up. Obviously any individual case of school shooting is the shooters responsibility and no-one else's, but when you add them all together and then look at other factors like the mental health of school leavers its pretty obvious that the current system is very damaging for some kids. The fact that there is no way out of that system, it can be like 10 years of mental torture. Its a shame that there is no political benefit for reforming or it would have been done years ago. I definitely think it was both and a confluence of other factors. It's our society at large, manifested in it's own uniquely American ways. If this was strictly a bullying thing we would see more black mass school shooters. Across practically every facet of life we're seeing a shift. In order to perpetuate the extraction of wealth from the bottom of society the billionaire class has had to squeeze more poor white people. The overall trend is that the traditional place of superiority for lower income white people is being increasingly disrupted. They see rich rappers, sports stars, actors, and so on everywhere (despite still making up a small minority of roles/wealth). They see representations of black people on welfare eating lobster driving escalades with 24's, and see minorities get 'preferential' treatment in colleges, jobs, etc... They see the decriminalization of existing while Black as an affront to civility and order, the mere presence of Black people in spaces they don't approve of (despite being rightfully there) encourages such fear in white Americans they call an emergency response number where they are well aware the responders kill hundreds people annually. There's additional aspects for Muslims, immigrants, First Peoples, Basically any non-white people, and to a lesser degree/different way marginalized groups that are reflected more diversely demographically. Like disabled, LGBTQ..., ESL, and so on. All of this feels like a direct assault on them. Their revered place in society (even the lowliest of white Men) is being challenged, dismantled, guilted, devalued, and generally replaced with a social debt they don't feel or want to feel obligated to pay. It's no coincidence so many of these shooters have had affinities for Trump, white supremacy groups, and/or outright hatred for various minority groups (as was the case with this dickbag). Trump very much speaks to this. You've seen it wherever you interact politically. These people feel attacked and Trump is 'standing up' to the army of SJW's, Feminazis, WokerThanThous, Anarchists, ANTIFA, Communists, Tree Huggers, and all the other radicals hell bent on destroying what they have all worked so hard to There has to be a real reckoning with this nations history and what that means for this nations future and the people in it. Most importantly a real reckoning for white America about why they feel like they do and what it's going to take to stop feeling that way. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7875 Posts
On May 31 2018 18:20 OuchyDathurts wrote: I graduated a long time ago and from a not very big school, I think it was 200 some kids per class. I fit in with the skater kids, though I kind of straddled multiple groups, especially junior and senior year I kind of had my tentacles in everything. Still not a popular kid by any stretch of the imagination, but I kind of got along with most everyone. There were a few weirdo kids that got picked on more than others. While it was a constant barrage I never saw anything get completely ruthless. It's possible it happened and I wasn't privy to it, but people didn't go for the jugular that I saw. But again, this was ages ago and probably not everyone's experience. We do have completely bullshit zero tolerance rules in school. Where if you're getting bullied and you fight back or defend yourself you and your bully both get suspended. Treat the victim the same as the predator, makes a lot of sense! I've heard teachers and counselors either can't or won't intervene sometimes so nothing actually gets addressed or resolved. I was a victim of bullying when I was 10-11, and the problem is that it’s extremely hard to reach for help, because you feel ashamed and because you think it will make things worse. This shit has to be prevented beforehand, and teacher should be looking for signs that it’s going on. Then again, when a kid gets bullied, he closes down, start to behave erratically and teachers themselves start ro look at him or her negatively. On a side note, if value of kindness openness and care are for effeminate snowflakes and considering that americans have elected a 70 years old embodiement of a schoolyard bully, I suppose kids will keep living this kind of hell for a while. Don’t expect kids to behave kindly if we value adults who behave like assholes. And if a society values are as broken as to allow the current administration to hold power, expect it to show in the schoolyard. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44106 Posts
On May 31 2018 16:19 Silvanel wrote: Is school bullying in US really the way they depict it in movies? I mean there are "cool kids" and some amount of bullying everywhere but shit they depict in movies would never fly in Poland, at least not when i was going to school. Can you elaborate on what you mean by this? There are a vast number of ways students can be bullied and that bullying can manifest itself... sometimes it's private or more subtle, sometimes it's blatant or public; sometimes it's physical, sometimes it's psychological, sometimes it's verbal; sometimes (most of the time) it's between students, sometimes it's between a student and a teacher; etc. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9561 Posts
On May 31 2018 19:35 GreenHorizons wrote: I definitely think it was both and a confluence of other factors. It's our society at large, manifested in it's own uniquely American ways. If this was strictly a bullying thing we would see more black mass school shooters. Across practically every facet of life we're seeing a shift. In order to perpetuate the extraction of wealth from the bottom of society the billionaire class has had to squeeze more poor white people. The overall trend is that the traditional place of superiority for lower income white people is being increasingly disrupted. They see rich rappers, sports stars, actors, and so on everywhere (despite still making up a small minority of roles/wealth). They see representations of black people on welfare eating lobster driving escalades with 24's, and see minorities get 'preferential' treatment in colleges, jobs, etc... They see the decriminalization of existing while Black as an affront to civility and order, the mere presence of Black people in spaces they don't approve of (despite being rightfully there) encourages such fear in white Americans they call an emergency response number where they are well aware the responders kill hundreds people annually. There's additional aspects for Muslims, immigrants, First Peoples, Basically any non-white people, and to a lesser degree/different way marginalized groups that are reflected more diversely demographically. Like disabled, LGBTQ..., ESL, and so on. All of this feels like a direct assault on them. Their revered place in society (even the lowliest of white Men) is being challenged, dismantled, guilted, devalued, and generally replaced with a social debt they don't feel or want to feel obligated to pay. It's no coincidence so many of these shooters have had affinities for Trump, white supremacy groups, and/or outright hatred for various minority groups (as was the case with this dickbag). Trump very much speaks to this. You've seen it wherever you interact politically. These people feel attacked and Trump is 'standing up' to the army of SJW's, Feminazis, WokerThanThous, Anarchists, ANTIFA, Communists, Tree Huggers, and all the other radicals hell bent on destroying what they have all worked so hard to There has to be a real reckoning with this nations history and what that means for this nations future and the people in it. Most importantly a real reckoning for white America about why they feel like they do and what it's going to take to stop feeling that way. This is all very different in the US to how it is playing out in the EU+UK. In the UK, there's very little white vs black racism. There's very small localised pockets where you get concentrations of black people from certain areas of the world, and it turns polarized between black people and white racists, but throughout the vast majority of the country the racism is far less overt than in America (from what I can gather, I've never been to the US). The same movements of white racists feeling insulted that they might not get their birthright are happening, regardless of who the enemy is. In the EU its very much muslims who are on the receiving end, but as you can see from the recent outpouring of support for Tommy Robinson (a habitual criminal who got put in prison for breaking the law, leading to 'freedom of speech' protests) the far right white nationalist movement is almost exactly the same in tone, just with a different enemy. It seems bizarre to me anyway, its not the black people/muslims/whoever that are making life miserable for the white working class - Its the white elite. The misdirect is so completely obvious and yet so effective. Its sad to see kids getting dragged along with it but its also inevitable I suppose. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44106 Posts
On May 31 2018 07:28 GreenHorizons wrote: So the Parkland shooter had some video released from before his mass murder rampage. I changed his name because he wanted the fame. www.sun-sentinel.com What he's expressing there isn't unique, if we don't address why there's a growing number of people who think killing random people at school is an appropriate response to being 'bullied' for being an idiot and a bigot/racist, we'll keep seeing these incidents rise. The most interesting response I've seen to the whole "I was bullied which is why I shot up the school" non sequitur argument is "The vast majority of students who are bullied are minorities, disabled, perceived as different, etc., yet it's almost always a regular white boy who shoots up the school." That's not to say that the in-group or typical white boy can't be bullied or feel marginalized or feel unsafe, but an insane number of students get bullied, yet they don't retaliate by shooting up a school, so there needs to be something more to the equation. | ||
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farvacola
United States18821 Posts
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Velr
Switzerland10666 Posts
Certain people seem to just need some group to hate and blame... | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On May 31 2018 20:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Can you elaborate on what you mean by this? There are a vast number of ways students can be bullied and that bullying can manifest itself... sometimes it's private or more subtle, sometimes it's blatant or public; sometimes it's physical, sometimes it's psychological, sometimes it's verbal; sometimes (most of the time) it's between students, sometimes it's between a student and a teacher; etc. Actually I have always wondered about that myself. But I always assumed that it was just really exaggerated but somehow embedded itself as a popular cliche that you'll see everytime a school is featured in American movies and TV. A kind of "jock" bullying "nerd" stereotype. The whole cool kids physically bullying nerdy kids and everybody laughs it off at the expense of the bullied kid dynamic that you always see in American movies and tv series. It doesn't even have to be a school. It appears to be really imbedded into American movie/TV culture. Like one time I was wacthing an American show where a physically powerful colleague eats an autistic colleague's work lunch, and I was expecting that he would be told that isn't acceptable but instead, everybody at work acting like the nerdy autistic guy is just being annoying moaner, as opposed to an action for an immediate termination of contract. That sort of thing. There's a bullying problem in schools in the UK, but it rarely gets physical and when if does, it is serious business. Also in my school all the coolest kids hung out in different groups and weren't friends at all. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44106 Posts
On May 31 2018 21:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Actually I have always wondered about that myself. But I always assumed that it was just really exaggerated but somehow embedded itself as a popular cliche that you'll see everytime a school is featured in American movies and TV. A kind of "jock" bullying "nerd" stereotype. The whole cool kids physically bullying nerdy kids and everybody laughs it off at the expense of the bullied kid dynamic that you always see in American movies and tv series. It doesn't even have to be a school. It appears to be really imbedded into American movie/TV culture. Like one time I was wacthing an American show where a physically powerful colleague eats an autistic colleague's work lunch, and I was expecting that he would be told that isn't acceptable but instead, everybody at work acting like the nerdy autistic guy is just being annoying moaner, as opposed to an action for an immediate termination of contract. That sort of thing. There's a bullying problem in schools in the UK, but it rarely gets physical and when if does, it is serious business. Also in my school all the coolest kids hung out in different groups and weren't friends at all. Yeah all that happens, unfortunately. Even blatant physical bullying like pushing a kid into a locker or tripping someone or eating someone else's food occur and students around them either laugh it off because they don't want to get involved, think it's legitimately funny and just a harmless prank, or fall victim to the bystander effect or the idea that surely *someone else* will step in if it's an issue. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44106 Posts
Trump to impose total ban on luxury German cars: report http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/390009-trump-to-impose-total-ban-on-luxury-german-cars-report President Trump wants to impose a total ban on the imports of German luxury cars, according to a new report from CNBC and German magazine WirtschaftsWoche. Several U.S. and European diplomats told the news outlets that Trump told French President Emmanuel Macron about his plans last month during a state visit. Trump reportedly told Macron that he would maintain the ban until no Mercedes-Benz cars are seen on Fifth Avenue in New York. Shares of Daimler, Porsche and Volkswagen were lower on Thursday, shortly after the weekly German business magazine published the report. The Hill has reached out to the Trump White House for comment. The report comes a week after Trump ordered Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross to investigate auto tariffs and probe whether car imports are a danger to national security. A similar national security argument was used when Trump placed steep tariffs on aluminum and steel imports in March. Trump and congressional Republicans are preparing to clash over the proposed tariffs, which could be as high as 25 percent. I don't understand why he would ban German luxury cars. Is it to get back at Angela Merkel for having a backbone and standing up to him? Does he think cars are a threat to national security? Does he want to force Americans to buy fewer foreign cars? | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On May 31 2018 22:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/390009-trump-to-impose-total-ban-on-luxury-german-cars-report I don't understand why he would ban German luxury cars. Is it to get back at Angela Merkel for having a backbone and standing up to him? Does he think cars are a threat to national security? Does he want to force Americans to buy fewer foreign cars? I don't know why either; and his proposals certainly wouldn't make sense in a conventional way. but I think your guesses are the likeliest reasons, given his past history. I'd also add the possibility of it being part of a backroom/corruption deal from someone who'd benefit from such a tariff. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On May 31 2018 21:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Yeah all that happens, unfortunately. Even blatant physical bullying like pushing a kid into a locker or tripping someone or eating someone else's food occur and students around them either laugh it off because they don't want to get involved, think it's legitimately funny and just a harmless prank, or fall victim to the bystander effect or the idea that surely *someone else* will step in if it's an issue. Huh? So what you saying is that it isn't an exaggerated American trope, it's real. I did not expect that. That's really fucked up you know that? It's practically there to a class system. | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On May 31 2018 22:14 zlefin wrote: I don't know why either; and his proposals certainly wouldn't make sense in a conventional way. but I think your guesses are the likeliest reasons, given his past history. I'd also add the possibility of it being part of a backroom/corruption deal from someone who'd benefit from such a tariff. I'm pretty sure this is "art of the deal" in progress. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17952 Posts
On May 31 2018 22:14 zlefin wrote: I don't know why either; and his proposals certainly wouldn't make sense in a conventional way. but I think your guesses are the likeliest reasons, given his past history. I'd also add the possibility of it being part of a backroom/corruption deal from someone who'd benefit from such a tariff. My guess is that it's retaliation for the EU planning tariffs on Harleys, Levis and Tennessee Whiskey, in retaliation for the steel tariffs... Did someone say trade war yet? | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4720 Posts
On May 31 2018 22:14 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Huh? So what you saying is that it isn't an exaggerated American trope, it's real. I did not expect that. That's really fucked up you know that? It's practically there to a class system. Yeah. I was thinking the same i was hoping its just exaggaration. I cant fanthom those things happening to me in school. Fighting among kids? Sure. But hitting someone that cant defend himself? Just no. Same with taking someone else things or lunch. The latter would end with calling parents to school and if that didnt help with police intervention (In my school days in Poland). | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On May 31 2018 22:24 Silvanel wrote: Yeah. I was thinking the same, i was hoping its just exaggaration. I cant fanthom those things happening to me in school. Fighting among kids? Sure. But hitting someone that cant defend himself? Just no. Same with taking someone else things or lunch. The latter would end with calling parents to school and if that didnt help with police intervention (In my school days in Poland). Yeah exactly. It's unimaginable. I always just assumed that it was purely just some sort of overdone American trope. In my school, this tall pupil tripped a small pupil over and a fight broke out when the small pupil retailiated, bystanders got involved, teachers broke it up, statements were taken and the tall pupil got suspended for a week. It's unimaginable that someone would push someone into a locker. For one thing our lockers are half the height of a man. It's such a basic lack of respect, it's like something in pre-modern world or you'll see in societies that has recently industrialised. I get that different cultural standards apply, like the stereotype of hierachical German and the relaxed Dutch, but it both cases, that kind of social interaction is more akin to caste India or economic class China. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44106 Posts
On May 31 2018 22:32 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Yeah exactly. It's unimaginable. I always just assumed that it was purely just some sort of overdone American trope. In my school, this tall pupil tripped a small pupil over and a fight broke out when the small pupil retailiated, bystanders got involved, teachers broke it up, statements were taken and the tall pupil got suspended for a week. It's unimaginable that someone would push someone into a locker. It's such a basic lack of respect, it's like something in pre-modern world or you'll see in societies that has recently industrialised. You know the vision in Mean Girls where everyone goes primal and jumps off tables in the cafeteria to attack each other? That's exaggeration. Everything less than that isn't, unfortunately. Hyperbole. Mostly. The community as a whole- students, teachers, administrators, parents, etc.- need to work together to effectively stop bullying. We need to reinforce empathy and respect in school, at home, and elsewhere. When that all comes together and you have good communication and transparency among all parties, the school runs pretty smoothly with minimal issues. When the community doesn't run smoothly, you get any number of problems, including bullying or mouthing off or other forms of disrespect. | ||
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