EPTExcept this is real life and he's the President...
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 2282
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Zooper31
United States5710 Posts
Except this is real life and he's the President... | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States763 Posts
On April 25 2020 10:29 JimmiC wrote: He’s now claiming it was sarcasm, which it obviously was not. I wonder if this is all laying the ground work for some insanity plea later. In the next few months I think his financial cases will be decided. Probably why he's freaking out (more than usual anyway). For the past 2 years, I've been saying Trump will never allow a fair election to take place, but now I'm thinking there is a possibility he's doesn't make it to the election. Maybe something big comes out and GOP/Replications can't ignore it, and they go with Pence/Haley. Also been wondering if Republicans would do better in the election without Trump on the ticket. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
I've been trying to pass on Trump Saying Stupid Thing reporting, usually it's been the very low hanging fruit that everyone usually knows, but this is ridiculous. He needs to be anything resembling an actual fucking leader, and he's costing us thousands of American lives every day because he prefers to stroke his worthless ego. The president is killing people. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22742 Posts
On April 25 2020 10:53 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: I wonder if this is all laying the ground work for some insanity plea later. In the next few months I think his financial cases will be decided. Probably why he's freaking out (more than usual anyway). For the past 2 years, I've been saying Trump will never allow a fair election to take place, but now I'm thinking there is a possibility he's doesn't make it to the election. Maybe something big comes out and GOP/Replications can't ignore it, and they go with Pence/Haley. Also been wondering if Republicans would do better in the election without Trump on the ticket. Tough to say. His base is certainly more loyal to him than Republicans but it would also pretty much take away Democrats primary argument for why they should win. If Republicans also have a woman on the ticket it would take away their other major argument. That said I don't see him leaving office without at least a credible threat of being removed by force should he refuse. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10606 Posts
Seriously, i don't even get how this is somehow worse than plenty of other things he has done... Well, now his most moronic supporters maybe feel it. Can't say i feel any pity. Moron was voted, moron rules. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7814 Posts
On April 24 2020 15:24 GreenHorizons wrote: When I say capitalism I'm referring to an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit. Typically the US's brand specifically since it is the US politics thread. When I say socialism I'm referring to a political and economic system of social organization in which the means of production, distribution, and exchange are owned and regulated by the community as a whole. (Not the social democracy of Europe, socialism) If you have a counter-point or argument you're free to make it but trying to dunk on me pretending I'm distorting or misusing the term is just lazy. The point was a simple one about supply, demand, and capital. Oh, and you vote for a guy who says he is a socialist: do you believe Sanders wants to nationalize all industries or do you realize that when he uses the word it means something completely different (a strong social safety net and lots of regulations)? See the problem is that every country in the world except maybe North Korea is a mix between your definition of capitalism and socialism. Certain things are private and for profit, certain things are public and working for the common good. And some are even both at the same time. So what the hell are you talking about when you say "this is how capitalism work"? Because again, Denmark and Norway are capitalist countries, so is China, so is the US, and so on and so forth. It's really hard to make reality fit a theory with zero nuances. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7132 Posts
And trying to turn this into some conversation about nuance is missing the point, this is the US we have a very capitalist consumerist culture here, to pretend it’s some extremely nuanced mixture of capitalism and socialism is putting it on a pedestal that almost no one here would be qualified to discuss and we’d spend tens of pages beating off about how many fractions of a percentage point off between socialism and capitalism the US is. He stated his definitions, they’re relatively clear, no idea what you’re calling a theory within GHs post but It seems like it’s an amalgamated straw man of all the things you think GH believes. | ||
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Furikawari
France2522 Posts
And btw what you call social democracy in Europe is capitalism. Softer, hence the "social", that is purposedly changed to socialism by propaganda in the US (yes, I use this word on purpose). Nowdays no sane people in EU would pretend living in a socialist country. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7814 Posts
On April 25 2020 16:09 Zambrah wrote: GH has made it abundantly clear that Bernie is not his Socialist Prophet and that at best he considers him h minimal viable level of progress. I wish people would hop off their weird GH hate boners. And trying to turn this into some conversation about nuance is missing the point, this is the US we have a very capitalist consumerist culture here, to pretend it’s some extremely nuanced mixture of capitalism and socialism is putting it on a pedestal that almost no one here would be qualified to discuss and we’d spend tens of pages beating off about how many fractions of a percentage point off between socialism and capitalism the US is. He stated his definitions, they’re relatively clear, no idea what you’re calling a theory within GHs post but It seems like it’s an amalgamated straw man of all the things you think GH believes. I was making a point the other day that Sanders uses the word socialism in a different way than anyone else (the european way) to play on the confusion of the concept and get revolutionary millenials on board, and that it was a dangerous strategy since it offers so much ammo to his opponents to strawman him as a socialist in the american term (someone who wants to abolish private property). I also stated that I think that's why he lost. Everyone jumped at my throat. So I'm just happy that we could clarify that. I know that American savage capitalism is a disaster, but the use of broad concepts like "capitalism" coming from someone who is actually advocating revolutionary socialism doesn't allow for any intelligent discussion. Just like I'd like to know if we are talking Denmark or Leninist fantasies when we say "socialism", I'd like to know if we are talking Denmark or Ayn Rand when we say capitalism. Because it's not the same thing. And 99% of the time the blur around the concept is actually voluntary. Ranting against socialism Venezuela style to attack social security programs, as done by Fox or Breitbart is not one bit more stupid than ranting against capitalism, Texas style, to attack well regulated capitalism, as seen for exemple in Northern Europe. I am also happy that we seem to now all agree that we don't need to vote for perfect people, just people who will make things better than they are or would be otherwise. That part was bothering me too. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7814 Posts
On April 25 2020 16:54 Furikawari wrote: Only --certain-- americans think that Sanders is a socialist... Here he looks like a standard left/moderate left. And btw what you call social democracy in Europe is capitalism. Softer, hence the "social", that is purposedly changed to socialism by propaganda in the US (yes, I use this word on purpose). Nowdays no sane people in EU would pretend living in a socialist country. I know. Social democrat is a much better concept. At that point, socialism should be left to what GH described: state ownership of the means of production. Which no politician in his right mind advocates, in Europe or virtually anywhere else. But Sanders knew that calling himself a social democrat (which he is) doesn't have the same edge and won't get people who actually believe that we are gonna end capitalism on board. I think playing on this ambiguity costed the progressive cause dearly. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22742 Posts
On April 25 2020 16:55 Biff The Understudy wrote: + Show Spoiler + On April 25 2020 16:09 Zambrah wrote: GH has made it abundantly clear that Bernie is not his Socialist Prophet and that at best he considers him h minimal viable level of progress. I wish people would hop off their weird GH hate boners. And trying to turn this into some conversation about nuance is missing the point, this is the US we have a very capitalist consumerist culture here, to pretend it’s some extremely nuanced mixture of capitalism and socialism is putting it on a pedestal that almost no one here would be qualified to discuss and we’d spend tens of pages beating off about how many fractions of a percentage point off between socialism and capitalism the US is. He stated his definitions, they’re relatively clear, no idea what you’re calling a theory within GHs post but It seems like it’s an amalgamated straw man of all the things you think GH believes. I was making a point the other day that Sanders uses the word socialism in a different way than anyone else (the european way) to play on the confusion of the concept and get revolutionary millenials on board, and that it was a dangerous strategy since it offers so much ammo to his opponents to strawman him as a socialist in the american term (someone who wants to abolish private property). I also stated that I think that's why he lost. Everyone jumped at my throat. So I'm just happy that we could clarify that. I know that American savage capitalism is a disaster, but the use of broad concepts like "capitalism" coming from someone who is actually advocating revolutionary socialism doesn't allow for any intelligent discussion. Just like I'd like to know if we are talking Denmark or Leninist fantasies when we say "socialism", I'd like to know if we are talking Denmark or Ayn Rand when we say capitalism. Because it's not the same thing. And 99% of the time the blur around the concept is actually voluntary. Ranting against socialism Venezuela style to attack social security programs, as done by Fox or Breitbart is not one bit more stupid than ranting against capitalism, Texas style, to attack well regulated capitalism, as seen for exemple in Northern Europe. I am also happy that we seem to now all agree that we don't need to vote for perfect people, just people who will make things better than they are or would be otherwise. That part was bothering me too. When I say capitalism, I'm talking about capitalism. If you want to argue my point about how the brunt of the economic pain resulting from the pandemic will be borne by those at the bottom because of the nature of capitalism (whether it is mitigated by regulation against that function of capitalism or not) there may be "intelligent discussion" to be had, otherwise I'm uninterested in whatever you're talking about there. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7814 Posts
On April 25 2020 17:19 GreenHorizons wrote: When I say capitalism, I'm talking about capitalism. If you want to argue my point about how the brunt of the economic pain resulting from the pandemic will be borne by those at the bottom because of the nature of capitalism (whether it is mitigated by regulation against that function of capitalism or not) there may be "intelligent discussion" to be had, otherwise I'm uninterested in whatever you're talking about there. Sure we can talk about that. It's not and probably won't be the case here in Norway, which as far as I know is a capitalist country. The State is pouring billions and will keep pouring billions to save small businesses and workers. The ones that will probably lose most are shareholders of whichever big companies are seeing their value crash. So please refine your argument and tell us what kind of capitalism you are talking about. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22742 Posts
On April 25 2020 17:23 Biff The Understudy wrote: Sure we can talk about that. It's not and probably won't be the case here in Norway, which as far as I know is a capitalist country. The State is pouring billions and will keep pouring billions to save small businesses and workers. The ones that will probably lose most are shareholders of whichever big companies are seeing their value crash. So please refine your argument and tell us what kind of capitalism you are talking about. Talking about capitalism, the victims of which aren't neatly limited to the borders of the nations that exploit them. + Show Spoiler + Mostly unrelated, but have you watched the netflix series "Occupied"? | ||
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Furikawari
France2522 Posts
On April 25 2020 17:23 Biff The Understudy wrote: Sure we can talk about that. It's not and probably won't be the case here in Norway, which as far as I know is a capitalist country. The State is pouring billions and will keep pouring billions to save small businesses and workers. The ones that will probably lose most are shareholders of whichever big companies are seeing their value crash. So please refine your argument and tell us what kind of capitalism you are talking about. ??? Shareholders just have to wait 2 to 3 years and business will go as usual. I didnt foolow the situation in Norway but in France numbers look a lot like the US one regarding money injected in the system. A lot for big companies, some for others. Just this morning they announced 7 billions for Air France. Darty/Fnac got all half a billion 2 weeks ago. Sure, I'm very worried for this "poor shareholders of big corps". | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7814 Posts
On April 25 2020 17:42 Furikawari wrote: ??? Shareholders just have to wait 2 to 3 years and business will go as usual. I didnt foolow the situation in Norway but in France numbers look a lot like the US one regarding money injected in the system. A lot for big companies, some for others. Just this morning they announced 7 billions for Air France. Darty/Fnac got all half a billion 2 weeks ago. Sure, I'm very worried for this "poor shareholders of big corps". I'm not talking about France. What I am saying is that GH assertion that capitalism means the poorest people will bear the weight of the crisis doesn't apply to some capitalist countries. If shareholders recover, good for them, but at the moment, the consequence in Norway is more that Norwegian Airlines could go bankrupt than workers starving because nobody takes care of their fate. I would say that in any society - capitalist or not -, at any point in history, the most vulnerable people are the first victims of this kind of crisis, and that it's precisely in the well regulated capitalist societies that they would suffer the least. I am pretty sure that very few non capitalist societies have had the amazing social safety net of the nordic countries. Capitalism in itself is neither good or bad. Well regulated, within an equalitarian and democratic culture, it's actually rather great. When it's just the rule of the unregulated free market, or when it starts to take precedence over political power, yeah, it's hell. By the way, I'm sure it has totally eluded some of us that the Dems are fighting the Republicans in an epic clash over whether the relief packages should go to tax breaks for rich folks and corporations or to common people. I guess they are the enemy of the people anyway. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22742 Posts
The consolidation of capital and power and exploitation of marginalized peoples under capitalism are inalienable features, not bugs. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28564 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France7814 Posts
On April 25 2020 20:17 GreenHorizons wrote: Your argument simply ignores the international externalities that (built and) sustain the supposedly "well regulated capitalist societies". In favor of looking at more equitable sharing of plundered resources among a more homogeneous population. The consolidation of capital and power and exploitation of marginalized peoples under capitalism are inalienable features, not bugs. And that's why we should work on international regulations, why big regulators like the EU are so important and so on. After that, the wealth of scandinavian nations is mainly built on their own ressources (oil for norway) and industries. You can certainly find shitty things that nordic corporations are doing in the world, but I don't buy that the wealth of those nations is built on the blood and sweat of some oppressed slaves somewhere. Haven't seen Occupation. Do you recommend? | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7814 Posts
On April 25 2020 20:22 Liquid`Drone wrote: Hm in Norway small business owners are definitely hurting. Laid off workers were very smoothly implemented into the existing welfare net, but I've read of some small businesses finding themselves between the gaps of where aid is given. I'd expect quite some bankruptcies here too if lockdown continues much longer. (We're actually starting to reopen quite a lot on the 27th - kindergartens, hairdressers, some school classes, saw people going out to drink beer again yesterday. ) Yeah. I mean, I paint the situation with a way too large brush, and I don't particularly like the current government. My point is, Norwegian society doesn't let its poorest people down, and is ready to spend without counting so that the normal folks don't end up being screwed. A lot of people, rich and less rich are gonna hurt. Actually, we are all gonna hurt. But nothing like in places without the super strong equalitarian tradition and the amazing safety net of scandinavian countries. | ||
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