EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 2279
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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farvacola
United States18856 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain18243 Posts
On April 23 2020 20:02 NewSunshine wrote: So I suppose it's like when Trump said "what have you got to lose?" In reference to taking hydroxicloroquine, a drug not only not proven against the Coronavirus whatsoever, but also a life-saving drug for people with lupus that is now in dangerously short supply. It also has some potentially serious side effects, so you shouldn't just take it because "it might help"... | ||
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Simberto
Germany11786 Posts
On April 23 2020 20:49 Acrofales wrote: It also has some potentially serious side effects, so you shouldn't just take it because "it might help"... Furthermore, you could basically use the same argument for taking anything at all. From eating apples over smoking weed to homeopathic "medicine" (All of which are probably a better idea than Hydroxicloroquine in this case). "It isn't proven that it doesn't help" is about the weakest sell for medication that you can think of. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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PoulsenB
Poland7733 Posts
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ChristianS
United States3304 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On April 23 2020 17:34 Reivax wrote: Not confirmed that Trump personally has a financial stake in this but one of his major donors and Wilbur Ross: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/us/politics/coronavirus-trump-malaria-drug.html Snopes rates the claim that's mostly false based on existing evidence. When you are super-rich it's hard not to have an investment somewhere that might be related to something that comes up. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16121 Posts
The Numbers are in. COVID-19 is officially much deadlier than the flu. In one month it's killed more Americans than the entire H1N1 Swine Flu did in a whole year. To quote this article from a historically conservative site. But as Rich Lowry pointed out last week, “if we are going to have 60,000 deaths with people not leaving their homes for more than a month, the number of deaths obviously would have been higher — much higher — if everyone had gone about business as usual.” Indeed, the IMHE model is making an estimate of the death toll only for a first wave of infections, and most of the country will still be vulnerable to infection after the first wave passes... ...Not only does the new coronavirus have the potential to infect many more people than the seasonal flu does, it appears to kill a greater percentage of those infected. You don’t need to rely on various statistical models to come to that conclusion. You just have to look at the reality of what has already happened around the world and in our own country. Do you think having the actual numbers will put an end to Trump going on constantly about how the flu kills more Americans every year? I doubt it. Since when has a thing like DATA actually stopped him. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8003 Posts
On April 24 2020 01:05 ChristianS wrote: Fun as it is to see people try to call Wegandi’s bluff on the “litany of NIH studies” thing, I think we oughta go easy on him. It’s really rough to be a libertarian right now. Then again, my experience with libertarianism is that when confronted to the absurd consequences of their philosophy, its adepts either reveal they are willing to let everyone die for their ideology or that they are ready to bend reality to Soviet-era levels to make it fit the theory. I read a bit of Ayn Rand, and I came to the conclusion that people who agree with her philosophy either don't truly understand what they are reading, or are afflicted by a higher degree of psychopathy. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12420 Posts
On April 24 2020 01:32 Biff The Understudy wrote: Then again, my experience with libertarianism is that when confronted to the absurd consequences of their philosophy, its adepts either reveal they are willing to let everyone die for their ideology or that they are ready to bend reality to Soviet-era levels to make it fit the theory. I read a bit of Ayn Rand, and I came to the conclusion that people who agree with her philosophy either don't truly understand what they are reading, or are afflicted by a higher degree of psychopathy. If liberty of the individual is a core part of your ideology it's pretty obvious that you should be on the left, so this is mostly just rebranding. "I want the government to do nothing" is not the same position as "liberty", but if you say it fast enough, maybe people won't notice. | ||
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ChristianS
United States3304 Posts
On April 24 2020 01:32 Biff The Understudy wrote: Then again, my experience with libertarianism is that when confronted to the absurd consequences of their philosophy, its adepts either reveal they are willing to let everyone die for their ideology or that they are ready to bend reality to Soviet-era levels to make it fit the theory. I read a bit of Ayn Rand, and I came to the conclusion that people who agree with her philosophy either don't truly understand what they are reading, or are afflicted by a higher degree of psychopathy. I guess it depends how broadly you define libertarianism. Not everybody’s a Randian. I mean, I get that the word “libertarian” has gotten a pretty bad name from the kind of people that put it on shirts or in Twitter bios or in the names of Facebook meme pages. But I think there’s a broad sense in which most of us are libertarians. There’s a perspective that any time someone asks “should the government allow me to ______”, we should answer by considering “well, does _____harm anyone else?” and if not, that’s a pretty compelling reason the government should leave you alone; I bet GH, kwizach, xDaunt, and Wegandi would all more or less agree with that idea (each with their own characteristic twists and caveats, I’m sure). The trouble right now is that leaving your house and interacting with other people constitutes a non-trivial harm. Libertarianism usually has an automatic answer for just about any problem, but in this case it’s not clear how to apply the harm principle here. “Tax house-leaving to internalize the externality” might be the most ideologically consistent, but is also facially absurd. The more likely answer generally will be to sweep it under the rug and insist it *is* a trivial harm - fewer deaths annually than the flu, you can stay home if you want to, etc. You’ve heard the lines before, I’m sure. But considering how frustrating this pandemic is for everyone already, it must be uniquely confounding to be a libertarian when 2020 has chosen a crisis that so clearly demands community organization, central planning, and relinquishing personal priorities for the benefit of larger society. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On April 24 2020 02:38 JimmiC wrote: In practice this does not seem to be the case. Why do you think most of the "furthest left" countries have some of least liberty of the people? Or do you think countries like Cuba, Venezuela, China and so on are not left? (I personally do not think China is remotely left, either with Venezuela, Cuba is more complicated). It's one of the reason I prefer the political compass idea. Authority/Liberty is basically a whole seperate axis compared to left/right. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12420 Posts
On April 24 2020 02:44 Gahlo wrote: It's one of the reason I prefer the political compass idea. Authority/Liberty is basically a whole seperate axis compared to left/right. I agree that the other axes are needed for a political analysis (the third axis being progressive vs conservative). That being said on this specific subject we can just view this in terms of social hierarchies, under one of the main definitions of the left/right divide where the left attempts to fight social hierarchies and the right attempts to maintain them (or reinforce them) - I believe this dates back to the french Revolution and the whole "liberty, equality, fraternity" stuff? If a core principle of your ideology is liberty of individuals, the existence of social hierarchies ought to clash with that, by definition. It's a very common rebranding though. I have in mind a video of Macron where he's asked the difference between left and right and he explains that the left values equality and the right values liberty. Pretty cringe =) Another simpler way to say this is that if you are truly concerned with the principles of libertarianism, it makes very little sense not to be a libertarian socialist. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France8003 Posts
Basically the idea that radical egoism is great, that taxes is fundamentally a theft and that if the state forces you to wear a helmet when you ride a motorbike, it's tyranny. | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
On April 24 2020 01:18 Vindicare605 wrote: https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/04/coronavirus-kills-more-americans-in-one-month-than-the-flu-kills-in-one-year/ The Numbers are in. COVID-19 is officially much deadlier than the flu. In one month it's killed more Americans than the entire H1N1 Swine Flu did in a whole year. To quote this article from a historically conservative site. Do you think having the actual numbers will put an end to Trump going on constantly about how the flu kills more Americans every year? I doubt it. Since when has a thing like DATA actually stopped him. It doesn't stop his supporters. I see "well the flu is only 2-3 months anyways so it's about as deadly" and "for one year(2017-2018) the death toll was high and nothing happened, basically same thing rite" as if the flu magically disappears and appears every year and we make flu vaccines based on magic I suppose | ||
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ChristianS
United States3304 Posts
On April 24 2020 03:50 Biff The Understudy wrote: For the sake of clarity, I think we should stick to the modern definition of libertarianism, which is basically Ayn Rand / Hayek / Ron Paul. Basically the idea that radical egoism is great, that taxes is fundamentally a theft and that if the state forces you to wear a helmet when you ride a motorbike, it's tyranny. Is Wegandi in your definition then? I don’t know that I’ve ever heard him talk about Rand, Hayek, Ron Paul, taxation is theft, or motorbike safety. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23759 Posts
The trouble right now is that leaving your house and interacting with other people constitutes a non-trivial harm. Libertarianism usually has an automatic answer for just about any problem, but in this case it’s not clear how to apply the harm principle here. “Tax house-leaving to internalize the externality” might be the most ideologically consistent, but is also facially absurd. I actually think this might happen indirectly by businesses raising prices to make demand match the supply they are able to provide with social distancing restrictions. Basically say you own a nail salon that normally has 5 customers an hour, but under the restrictions you can only allow 2 per hour, you can double your price. Effectively discouraging the portion of demand that can't afford that increase while incurring minimal profit loss. Not as if they can just easily go to the next nail salon which has a week+ wait because they haven't raised their prices (yet, who knows by the time their appointment comes). | ||
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