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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On March 06 2020 01:38 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2020 01:24 ChristianS wrote:On March 06 2020 01:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 06 2020 00:50 ChristianS wrote:On March 06 2020 00:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 06 2020 00:28 ChristianS wrote:On March 06 2020 00:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 05 2020 23:54 ChristianS wrote:On March 05 2020 20:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 05 2020 14:55 ChristianS wrote:
[quote]
“Government conspired to assassinate MLK” sounds like a rabbit hole we probably shouldn’t go down right now. Regarding “not caring enough,” I think I disagree with the framing. I mean, what are you suggesting exactly? Go read Marx? Fanon? Foucault? I’m not a politician, or a political scientist, or a leader of a social movement. I’m just a voter. I barely have time for books these days, and my background is in chemistry.
Do you really think educating myself on the tenets of socialism will help address global injustice? I’d be willing to give it a shot. I haven’t pursued it yet because I thought it was unlikely to yield much of use to me or anyone else, but obviously without knowing much about it I’m not in a strong position to assess how much value it would bring. The US government conspired to assassinate MLK. After four weeks of testimony and over 70 witnesses in a civil trial in Memphis, Tennessee, twelve jurors reached a unanimous verdict on December 8, 1999 after about an hour of deliberations that Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was assassinated as a result of a conspiracy.
The jury was clearly convinced by the extensive evidence that was presented during the trial that... the conspiracy of the Mafia, local, state and federal government agencies, were deeply involved in the assassination of my husband. thekingcenter.orgIf that's not enough we know without a doubt the FBI was trying to drive him to suicide, illegally surveilling him, and so on. As for socialism, it was critical to the civil rights movement for one. As a source of understanding, method of action, and a reason for the US government to destroy your life. "We must mark [MLK] now, if we have not done so before, as the most dangerous Negro of the future in this Nation from the standpoint of communism, the Negro and national security," FBI Domestic Intelligence Chief William Sullivan wrote I recommend Pedagogy of the Oppressed as a good start but I promise being "just a voter" isn't good enough for anything more than maintaining the status quo path which promises certain doom. So yes, I do believe you educating yourself on socialism will make you more capable of joining in solidarity with millions of people around the globe in addressing global injustices beyond voting for lesser evils. I’m trying to decide if I think it’s dishonest to imply 12 jurors reached a verdict to that effect beyond reasonable doubt in a criminal case. Farv is the law guy, and if he had made the same implication, I think it would have been dishonest. For you, I think you maybe just don’t think the distinction matters all that much. But the effect is greatly overstating your evidence for rhetorical effect, and (at best) expecting your readers to look up the caveats themselves or (at worst) hoping they’ll just believe you at face value and never check your work. You failed to mention that the 12 jurors were in a civil case against a private individual, not against the government. That meant that a) the burden of proof was a lot lower, and b) that no one was allowed to present evidence to contradict the allegations about the government’s involvement. I believe the conclusion of that case was an award of $100 to the King family. None of that proves the government didn’t kill him, of course, and I’m not well-acquainted with the timeline, forensics, etc. of the case. It’s absolutely true that the US government did a lot of fucked up stuff in response to the civil rights movement and King specifically. Hoover in particular, as I understand, seemed to have an almost personal vendetta. But when you overstate your evidence like that, it makes me think I’m being sold something. Anyway, like I said, probably not a rabbit hole worth going down, particularly when mods have warned you about conspiracy theories before. "The FBI conspired to try to get him to kill himself, so they definitely tried to make him dead." "The US government was conspiring to end his life and then he was killed" are alternative ways I could put it but it is a silly thing to argue imo. Sure, I’m eager to drop it. Iirc Hoover sent him a letter containing blackmail photos obtained from their illegal surveillance, and threatened to release them if he didn’t kill himself. If you wanna say “at that point it’s of little importance whether they actually paid a guy to pull the trigger,” I have no problem with that. And anyway there’s surely more immediately relevant things to discuss in a politics thread. The point was that the US government designated him the most dangerous negro in the country and cited communism as a reason. If you want to address global injustice in a serious way I strongly suggest you look into socialism, because voting for people like Biden isn't it. Nor Sanders, apparently. Perhaps I’m jumping ahead in my socialist reading, but permit me one spoiler: what, then, would you have us do with our votes? Not vote at all? Write in a socialist we know has zero possibility of winning? Vote Trump to accelerate capitalism’s demise? I'd put voting for Sanders at the 'right' flank of people that are potential comrades at the moment. I don't personally subscribe to electoralism in the US for a lot reasons but I can accept pretty much all the non-reformist reforms and harm reduction arguments. The part that I can't sign up for is his lingering neoimperialst positions/perspectives. I don't have to choose in the general (because of our broken electoral system) but I do have to decide if I'll vote for Sanders in the primary. In that, I'm basically at the point where I don't think electoralism works, but I don't see the harm in me voting for Sanders in the primary. The general is a different animal in that there is potential damage in basically a slightly better repeat of Obama where he kills countless innocent people around the world and neoliberals and progressives go back to brunch. Part of that comes from the constant FDR references by Bernie people with little to no regard of the valid negative associations that brings up for oppressed communities in the US. As to what to do, I wouldn't tell you you should or shouldn't vote for Bernie, but you should know what voting for him can and can't accomplish and what role you play in that. I also think studying socialism/ists will help you immensely as it has some of the most heroic people of the civil rights movement and beyond. I think we’re maybe burying the lede, then. The bolded seems like the place to start. Do you oppose democratically electing our leaders? Or just the form we practice in the US? The US. Democrats, all by themselves, failed to hold a genuine election in Iowa with 200k people, and the last 4 years have been wall to wall coverage of how Trump, Russia, and Ukraine threaten our democratic system and not a single piece of legislation or policy has been enacted to prevent it from happening again. As has been mentioned before, people treat the next election like the sun coming up tomorrow, and it simply isn't that secure of a future. Faith in our democracy is just that, faith absent evidence. Even more the case for populations that still struggle to secure voting rights and basic constitutional protections (think Bloombergs massive systemic violation of Black men in NYC's 4th amendment). Personally I have heavy Fredrick Douglass 4th of July vibes when it comes to elections in the US. I say it with a sad sense of the disparity between us. I am not included within the pale of glorious anniversary! Your high independence only reveals the immeasurable distance between us. The blessings in which you, this day, rejoice, are not enjoyed in common. The rich inheritance of justice, liberty, prosperity and independence, bequeathed by your fathers, is shared by you, not by me. The sunlight that brought light and healing to you, has brought stripes and death to me. This [election*] is yours, not mine. You may rejoice, I must mourn..." Okay, so if I’m understanding you right, the goal is still enacting governments through free and fair elections, you just don’t think we actually have those in the US? That wasn’t how I interpreted “I don’t subscribe to electoralism in the US,” but it makes more sense. Okay, so if the government isn’t giving us fair elections, but instead fixates on offering us choices between different percentages of feces, how do we enact positive change? Possibly relevant to the question: I would submit, and I’m not sure if you’ll disagree with this or not, that however fairly an election was administered, the changes your advocating probably would not have majority support in the US. JimmiC would probably like us to pause to enumerate your platform more specifically, but for now suffice to say it is decidedly socialist in ends, and decidedly not incrementalist in means; neither seems likely to enjoy 51% support here. I think you have to take a position on whether you're participating in genuine elections or not. If not, then you have to replace the government and the corrupt elections aren't a viable option. The people that get that far are ready to begin figuring out what is a viable option. Lots of literature and various opinions on this within socialist thought but my position is in support of mass action, worker ownership, and self-defense.
I’m sympathetic to the idea that the system is broken in ways that cannot or will not be fixed by election, and that the solutions can’t atart with a presidential campaign. I don’t know when I’ll find time to read “Pedagogy of the Oppressed,” but that’s what I’d be looking for from it. That kind of thing feels like it would have to start at a personal and communal level, not political and governmental.
But in the meantime I’ve got this vote, and I can’t think what to do with it besides put it behind the candidate I think will ameliorate some big injustices, even if he won’t do nearly as much as I think he should.
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On March 06 2020 01:55 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2020 01:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 06 2020 01:24 ChristianS wrote:On March 06 2020 01:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 06 2020 00:50 ChristianS wrote:On March 06 2020 00:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 06 2020 00:28 ChristianS wrote:On March 06 2020 00:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 05 2020 23:54 ChristianS wrote:On March 05 2020 20:26 GreenHorizons wrote:[quote] The US government conspired to assassinate MLK. [quote] thekingcenter.orgIf that's not enough we know without a doubt the FBI was trying to drive him to suicide, illegally surveilling him, and so on. As for socialism, it was critical to the civil rights movement for one. As a source of understanding, method of action, and a reason for the US government to destroy your life. [quote] I recommend Pedagogy of the Oppressed as a good start but I promise being "just a voter" isn't good enough for anything more than maintaining the status quo path which promises certain doom. So yes, I do believe you educating yourself on socialism will make you more capable of joining in solidarity with millions of people around the globe in addressing global injustices beyond voting for lesser evils. I’m trying to decide if I think it’s dishonest to imply 12 jurors reached a verdict to that effect beyond reasonable doubt in a criminal case. Farv is the law guy, and if he had made the same implication, I think it would have been dishonest. For you, I think you maybe just don’t think the distinction matters all that much. But the effect is greatly overstating your evidence for rhetorical effect, and (at best) expecting your readers to look up the caveats themselves or (at worst) hoping they’ll just believe you at face value and never check your work. You failed to mention that the 12 jurors were in a civil case against a private individual, not against the government. That meant that a) the burden of proof was a lot lower, and b) that no one was allowed to present evidence to contradict the allegations about the government’s involvement. I believe the conclusion of that case was an award of $100 to the King family. None of that proves the government didn’t kill him, of course, and I’m not well-acquainted with the timeline, forensics, etc. of the case. It’s absolutely true that the US government did a lot of fucked up stuff in response to the civil rights movement and King specifically. Hoover in particular, as I understand, seemed to have an almost personal vendetta. But when you overstate your evidence like that, it makes me think I’m being sold something. Anyway, like I said, probably not a rabbit hole worth going down, particularly when mods have warned you about conspiracy theories before. "The FBI conspired to try to get him to kill himself, so they definitely tried to make him dead." "The US government was conspiring to end his life and then he was killed" are alternative ways I could put it but it is a silly thing to argue imo. Sure, I’m eager to drop it. Iirc Hoover sent him a letter containing blackmail photos obtained from their illegal surveillance, and threatened to release them if he didn’t kill himself. If you wanna say “at that point it’s of little importance whether they actually paid a guy to pull the trigger,” I have no problem with that. And anyway there’s surely more immediately relevant things to discuss in a politics thread. The point was that the US government designated him the most dangerous negro in the country and cited communism as a reason. If you want to address global injustice in a serious way I strongly suggest you look into socialism, because voting for people like Biden isn't it. Nor Sanders, apparently. Perhaps I’m jumping ahead in my socialist reading, but permit me one spoiler: what, then, would you have us do with our votes? Not vote at all? Write in a socialist we know has zero possibility of winning? Vote Trump to accelerate capitalism’s demise? I'd put voting for Sanders at the 'right' flank of people that are potential comrades at the moment. I don't personally subscribe to electoralism in the US for a lot reasons but I can accept pretty much all the non-reformist reforms and harm reduction arguments. The part that I can't sign up for is his lingering neoimperialst positions/perspectives. I don't have to choose in the general (because of our broken electoral system) but I do have to decide if I'll vote for Sanders in the primary. In that, I'm basically at the point where I don't think electoralism works, but I don't see the harm in me voting for Sanders in the primary. The general is a different animal in that there is potential damage in basically a slightly better repeat of Obama where he kills countless innocent people around the world and neoliberals and progressives go back to brunch. Part of that comes from the constant FDR references by Bernie people with little to no regard of the valid negative associations that brings up for oppressed communities in the US. As to what to do, I wouldn't tell you you should or shouldn't vote for Bernie, but you should know what voting for him can and can't accomplish and what role you play in that. I also think studying socialism/ists will help you immensely as it has some of the most heroic people of the civil rights movement and beyond. I think we’re maybe burying the lede, then. The bolded seems like the place to start. Do you oppose democratically electing our leaders? Or just the form we practice in the US? The US. Democrats, all by themselves, failed to hold a genuine election in Iowa with 200k people, and the last 4 years have been wall to wall coverage of how Trump, Russia, and Ukraine threaten our democratic system and not a single piece of legislation or policy has been enacted to prevent it from happening again. As has been mentioned before, people treat the next election like the sun coming up tomorrow, and it simply isn't that secure of a future. Faith in our democracy is just that, faith absent evidence. Even more the case for populations that still struggle to secure voting rights and basic constitutional protections (think Bloombergs massive systemic violation of Black men in NYC's 4th amendment). Personally I have heavy Fredrick Douglass 4th of July vibes when it comes to elections in the US. I say it with a sad sense of the disparity between us. I am not included within the pale of glorious anniversary! Your high independence only reveals the immeasurable distance between us. The blessings in which you, this day, rejoice, are not enjoyed in common. The rich inheritance of justice, liberty, prosperity and independence, bequeathed by your fathers, is shared by you, not by me. The sunlight that brought light and healing to you, has brought stripes and death to me. This [election*] is yours, not mine. You may rejoice, I must mourn..." Okay, so if I’m understanding you right, the goal is still enacting governments through free and fair elections, you just don’t think we actually have those in the US? That wasn’t how I interpreted “I don’t subscribe to electoralism in the US,” but it makes more sense. Okay, so if the government isn’t giving us fair elections, but instead fixates on offering us choices between different percentages of feces, how do we enact positive change? Possibly relevant to the question: I would submit, and I’m not sure if you’ll disagree with this or not, that however fairly an election was administered, the changes your advocating probably would not have majority support in the US. JimmiC would probably like us to pause to enumerate your platform more specifically, but for now suffice to say it is decidedly socialist in ends, and decidedly not incrementalist in means; neither seems likely to enjoy 51% support here. I think you have to take a position on whether you're participating in genuine elections or not. If not, then you have to replace the government and the corrupt elections aren't a viable option. The people that get that far are ready to begin figuring out what is a viable option. Lots of literature and various opinions on this within socialist thought but my position is in support of mass action, worker ownership, and self-defense. I’m sympathetic to the idea that the system is broken in ways that cannot or will not be fixed by election, and that the solutions can’t atart with a presidential campaign. I don’t know when I’ll find time to read “Pedagogy of the Oppressed,” but that’s what I’d be looking for from it. That kind of thing feels like it would have to start at a personal and communal level, not political and governmental. But in the meantime I’ve got this vote, and I can’t think what to do with it besides put it behind the candidate I think will ameliorate some big injustices, even if he won’t do nearly as much as I think he should.
I look forward to discussing it with you.
Like I said, you may want to grapple with the idea that "I don't know when I'll have the time" is indicative of your prioritization of finding solutions for the problems you know you're not addressing by supporting their progenitors with your vote.
I'd argue individually speaking your vote is insignificant in many ways, I'd be willing to wager you reading Pedagogy of the Oppressed (and really engaging with it analytically) would be more impactful to you individually and socially than every US electoral vote you've ever made combined.
Like many problems in the US, it isn't a matter of not enough budget to provide housing, food, etc... it is a matter of prioritization.
That said I'm no saint or hero, I play a bunch of video games and watch media to escape from the seeming unending hellscape of life from time to time too, I also have to sell my labor to survive under capitalism and deal with the mental anguish that and my maladjustment to being even slightly complacent in the mass suffering that feeds this monster means to me as a person or us as a society. So I don't want you to think I'm trying to shame you. I was far less interested in all this years ago and rather content in what I would describe as my obliviousness to the depth of the depravity of all this.
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Moved to proper thread sorry
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On March 06 2020 02:13 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2020 01:55 ChristianS wrote:On March 06 2020 01:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 06 2020 01:24 ChristianS wrote:On March 06 2020 01:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 06 2020 00:50 ChristianS wrote:On March 06 2020 00:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 06 2020 00:28 ChristianS wrote:On March 06 2020 00:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 05 2020 23:54 ChristianS wrote:
[quote]
I’m trying to decide if I think it’s dishonest to imply 12 jurors reached a verdict to that effect beyond reasonable doubt in a criminal case. Farv is the law guy, and if he had made the same implication, I think it would have been dishonest. For you, I think you maybe just don’t think the distinction matters all that much. But the effect is greatly overstating your evidence for rhetorical effect, and (at best) expecting your readers to look up the caveats themselves or (at worst) hoping they’ll just believe you at face value and never check your work.
You failed to mention that the 12 jurors were in a civil case against a private individual, not against the government. That meant that a) the burden of proof was a lot lower, and b) that no one was allowed to present evidence to contradict the allegations about the government’s involvement. I believe the conclusion of that case was an award of $100 to the King family.
None of that proves the government didn’t kill him, of course, and I’m not well-acquainted with the timeline, forensics, etc. of the case. It’s absolutely true that the US government did a lot of fucked up stuff in response to the civil rights movement and King specifically. Hoover in particular, as I understand, seemed to have an almost personal vendetta. But when you overstate your evidence like that, it makes me think I’m being sold something.
Anyway, like I said, probably not a rabbit hole worth going down, particularly when mods have warned you about conspiracy theories before. "The FBI conspired to try to get him to kill himself, so they definitely tried to make him dead." "The US government was conspiring to end his life and then he was killed" are alternative ways I could put it but it is a silly thing to argue imo. Sure, I’m eager to drop it. Iirc Hoover sent him a letter containing blackmail photos obtained from their illegal surveillance, and threatened to release them if he didn’t kill himself. If you wanna say “at that point it’s of little importance whether they actually paid a guy to pull the trigger,” I have no problem with that. And anyway there’s surely more immediately relevant things to discuss in a politics thread. The point was that the US government designated him the most dangerous negro in the country and cited communism as a reason. If you want to address global injustice in a serious way I strongly suggest you look into socialism, because voting for people like Biden isn't it. Nor Sanders, apparently. Perhaps I’m jumping ahead in my socialist reading, but permit me one spoiler: what, then, would you have us do with our votes? Not vote at all? Write in a socialist we know has zero possibility of winning? Vote Trump to accelerate capitalism’s demise? I'd put voting for Sanders at the 'right' flank of people that are potential comrades at the moment. I don't personally subscribe to electoralism in the US for a lot reasons but I can accept pretty much all the non-reformist reforms and harm reduction arguments. The part that I can't sign up for is his lingering neoimperialst positions/perspectives. I don't have to choose in the general (because of our broken electoral system) but I do have to decide if I'll vote for Sanders in the primary. In that, I'm basically at the point where I don't think electoralism works, but I don't see the harm in me voting for Sanders in the primary. The general is a different animal in that there is potential damage in basically a slightly better repeat of Obama where he kills countless innocent people around the world and neoliberals and progressives go back to brunch. Part of that comes from the constant FDR references by Bernie people with little to no regard of the valid negative associations that brings up for oppressed communities in the US. As to what to do, I wouldn't tell you you should or shouldn't vote for Bernie, but you should know what voting for him can and can't accomplish and what role you play in that. I also think studying socialism/ists will help you immensely as it has some of the most heroic people of the civil rights movement and beyond. I think we’re maybe burying the lede, then. The bolded seems like the place to start. Do you oppose democratically electing our leaders? Or just the form we practice in the US? The US. Democrats, all by themselves, failed to hold a genuine election in Iowa with 200k people, and the last 4 years have been wall to wall coverage of how Trump, Russia, and Ukraine threaten our democratic system and not a single piece of legislation or policy has been enacted to prevent it from happening again. As has been mentioned before, people treat the next election like the sun coming up tomorrow, and it simply isn't that secure of a future. Faith in our democracy is just that, faith absent evidence. Even more the case for populations that still struggle to secure voting rights and basic constitutional protections (think Bloombergs massive systemic violation of Black men in NYC's 4th amendment). Personally I have heavy Fredrick Douglass 4th of July vibes when it comes to elections in the US. I say it with a sad sense of the disparity between us. I am not included within the pale of glorious anniversary! Your high independence only reveals the immeasurable distance between us. The blessings in which you, this day, rejoice, are not enjoyed in common. The rich inheritance of justice, liberty, prosperity and independence, bequeathed by your fathers, is shared by you, not by me. The sunlight that brought light and healing to you, has brought stripes and death to me. This [election*] is yours, not mine. You may rejoice, I must mourn..." Okay, so if I’m understanding you right, the goal is still enacting governments through free and fair elections, you just don’t think we actually have those in the US? That wasn’t how I interpreted “I don’t subscribe to electoralism in the US,” but it makes more sense. Okay, so if the government isn’t giving us fair elections, but instead fixates on offering us choices between different percentages of feces, how do we enact positive change? Possibly relevant to the question: I would submit, and I’m not sure if you’ll disagree with this or not, that however fairly an election was administered, the changes your advocating probably would not have majority support in the US. JimmiC would probably like us to pause to enumerate your platform more specifically, but for now suffice to say it is decidedly socialist in ends, and decidedly not incrementalist in means; neither seems likely to enjoy 51% support here. I think you have to take a position on whether you're participating in genuine elections or not. If not, then you have to replace the government and the corrupt elections aren't a viable option. The people that get that far are ready to begin figuring out what is a viable option. Lots of literature and various opinions on this within socialist thought but my position is in support of mass action, worker ownership, and self-defense. I’m sympathetic to the idea that the system is broken in ways that cannot or will not be fixed by election, and that the solutions can’t atart with a presidential campaign. I don’t know when I’ll find time to read “Pedagogy of the Oppressed,” but that’s what I’d be looking for from it. That kind of thing feels like it would have to start at a personal and communal level, not political and governmental. But in the meantime I’ve got this vote, and I can’t think what to do with it besides put it behind the candidate I think will ameliorate some big injustices, even if he won’t do nearly as much as I think he should. I look forward to discussing it with you. Like I said, you may want to grapple with the idea that "I don't know when I'll have the time" is indicative of your prioritization of finding solutions for the problems you know you're not addressing by supporting their progenitors with your vote. I'd argue individually speaking your vote is insignificant in many ways, I'd be willing to wager you reading Pedagogy of the Oppressed (and really engaging with it analytically) would be more impactful to you individually and socially than every US electoral vote you've ever made combined. Like many problems in the US, it isn't a matter of not enough budget to provide housing, food, etc... it is a matter of prioritization. That said I'm no saint or hero, I play a bunch of video games and watch media to escape from the seeming unending hellscape of life from time to time too, I also have to sell my labor to survive under capitalism and deal with the mental anguish that and my maladjustment to being even slightly complacent in the mass suffering that feeds this monster means to me as a person or us as a society. So I don't want you to think I'm trying to shame you. I was far less interested in all this years ago and rather content in what I would describe as my obliviousness to the depth of the depravity of all this.
No worries. I know I’m not much of an activist, and I don’t do that much to address social injustice. Given my relatively high level of privilege, I really ought to do more. I can tell myself I don’t have time, and indeed I struggle to find time for a lot of basic necessities, let alone hobbies and projects - and yet, I somehow found time to watch all three Star Wars prequels, all three Matrix movies, and play some 40 hours of Witcher 3 this year already. Don’t know whether to chide myself for doing so little for anyone besides myself and my friends/family, or congratulate myself for managing to get out of bed and dress myself. A little of both, I think.
I’d like to start reading it and write some about it as I go -probably in Blogs, this thread doesn’t seem like the right place. Historically very few of the blogs I plan to write actually get written, especially when I announce my intention to write them publicly, but if/when I do I’ll PM you or something to make sure you see it. I’m certain I’ll want to know your thoughts.
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On March 06 2020 03:43 themtc516 wrote:
Long time lurker here, since about page 2000 of the old thread. Never had an account either until today so I understand if no one cares what I have to say based on my lack of posting history.
But is it too much to ask for a mod or two to have a word with JimmiC????
The guy clearly has some strange personal vendetta against a member of this website and it's infected his posting and it's dragging down this usually awesome thread. I know he fully mucked up the thread for multiple pages a few months ago, and id hate for that to happen again as I love reading the discussions that take place here in my spare time. I dont agree with all of GH's conclusions either but it's undeniable that he has taken his time to outline and frame his worldview in a very clear and succinct manner. Im sorry if you dont agree with that framework, but I dont think that gives anyone the right to quote every future post he makes and attack him for things he has never said. It really drags the thread down. GH has shown more patience than I personally would have to outline and frame his argument in a professional and academic way. It's very disingenuous to try and morph his arguments and conclusions into a framework that you accept instead when hes gone out of his way MANY times to try and get you to understand. Most the rest of us do understand by the way. It seems GH has finally stopped responding to the nonsense for now so at least that is progress.
Anyways thanks for your time and thank you all for the years of interesting discussions. Carry on.
#AllLurkersMatter
Welcome, glad you decided to post. I hope you stick around. One thing that is important to note, since you've been around so long, is that GH wasn't always as composed as he has been recently. Then again, when I first started posting about politics here I was what, 21? I think people with a lot of history in this thread develop a bit of personal beef and I had some with GH once upon a time, but I'd consider us thread-friends at this point. GH has always been a lightning rod and some people have a hard time not replying to him. I do agree that sometimes GH-fueled 1v1 quote-wars can hurt the thread a lot, but I honestly don't think the current 1v1 is nearly as oppressive as we've seen in the past.
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My apologies. I have copied my inquiry to that thread. Thank you for the direction.
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In news that I certainly find favorable, the very popular Democratic governor of Montana has reversed course and unexpectedly thrown his hat into the state's senatorial race. Should he succeed in November, the Democrats suddenly have a better shot at taking back at least some power in that chamber.
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On March 06 2020 00:39 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2020 00:28 ChristianS wrote:On March 06 2020 00:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 05 2020 23:54 ChristianS wrote:On March 05 2020 20:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 05 2020 14:55 ChristianS wrote:On March 05 2020 14:27 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 05 2020 14:24 ChristianS wrote:On March 05 2020 13:54 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 05 2020 13:32 ChristianS wrote:
[quote]
“Both are so bad they’re unacceptable” is a very different argument than “they’re basically identical,” though. I figured you would (rightly) point out that for all the atrocities of the Trump administration, there have certainly been many atrocities committed by the US prior to Trump, including many that were not stopped by the Obama administration. The morality here is complex, and I don’t pretend to have a definitive answer to when it is reasonable to tolerate some atrocities in the interest of stopping others. But from where I’m sitting, it seems like anyone who doesn’t see a moral difference between the actions of Obama and Trump must be either powerfully uninformed or deeply apathetic to the suffering of other human beings. I don't think people literally see no difference, I think when people say that they are trying to express the argument I presented more or less. For many it is like choosing between drinking a shit shake with 50% shit and another with 75% shit or just taking your chances kicking the asses of the guys trying to force you to choose, even if you're outnumbered. If you have good healthcare and dead palate maybe it's worth choking down another 50-50 shit shake to dodge the 75% one but eventually the people that always get stuck with the shit half of the shake are going to be willing to risk the 75% shake getting force fed to them to fight for no more shit shakes period. The guys drinking the milkshake half complaining about some shit frothing up around their portion or them losing their cream above the shit layer are the people that I find to be powerfully uninformed or (as Baldwin puts it) 'moral monsters' Sure, we’re all making judgments between principled and pragmatic all the time. I’ve heard a lot of metaphors on the subject (most weirdly fixated on ingesting feces for whatever reason). One issue I have with many of these metaphors is that the cost is not merely unpleasant or unhygienic, and the suffering is not just mine. Another is that I don’t actually have even a vague idea of how to address the problems other than the choices presented to me. You linked the Letter from Birmingham Jail earlier, and I think everyone ought to reread it once in a while. I did. And I don’t know what MLK would say about the world of today. Injustice is everywhere you look. I don’t know the answers to many of these injustices - either the right policy to ameliorate them, or the right political strategy to achieve that policy, or both. I mostly just try to improve things where I can. And there’s a lot of terrible injustices I think would be lessened by ousting Trump. There’s also a lot that wouldn’t; if I had a good idea how to improve those too, I’d pursue it. I still think a Sanders administration would be a better route, and I’m still hoping for it - of course, you’ve decided that’s still too high a fecal content for you. But what else can we do besides make things better as best we know how? MLK was pursuing a poor people's campaign and looking toward socialism for those answers just before the US government conspired to assassinate him. I'd start looking for answers to those questions there or grapple with the idea you may not care enough to look. “Government conspired to assassinate MLK” sounds like a rabbit hole we probably shouldn’t go down right now. Regarding “not caring enough,” I think I disagree with the framing. I mean, what are you suggesting exactly? Go read Marx? Fanon? Foucault? I’m not a politician, or a political scientist, or a leader of a social movement. I’m just a voter. I barely have time for books these days, and my background is in chemistry. Do you really think educating myself on the tenets of socialism will help address global injustice? I’d be willing to give it a shot. I haven’t pursued it yet because I thought it was unlikely to yield much of use to me or anyone else, but obviously without knowing much about it I’m not in a strong position to assess how much value it would bring. The US government conspired to assassinate MLK. After four weeks of testimony and over 70 witnesses in a civil trial in Memphis, Tennessee, twelve jurors reached a unanimous verdict on December 8, 1999 after about an hour of deliberations that Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was assassinated as a result of a conspiracy.
The jury was clearly convinced by the extensive evidence that was presented during the trial that... the conspiracy of the Mafia, local, state and federal government agencies, were deeply involved in the assassination of my husband. thekingcenter.orgIf that's not enough we know without a doubt the FBI was trying to drive him to suicide, illegally surveilling him, and so on. As for socialism, it was critical to the civil rights movement for one. As a source of understanding, method of action, and a reason for the US government to destroy your life. "We must mark [MLK] now, if we have not done so before, as the most dangerous Negro of the future in this Nation from the standpoint of communism, the Negro and national security," FBI Domestic Intelligence Chief William Sullivan wrote I recommend Pedagogy of the Oppressed as a good start but I promise being "just a voter" isn't good enough for anything more than maintaining the status quo path which promises certain doom. So yes, I do believe you educating yourself on socialism will make you more capable of joining in solidarity with millions of people around the globe in addressing global injustices beyond voting for lesser evils. I’m trying to decide if I think it’s dishonest to imply 12 jurors reached a verdict to that effect beyond reasonable doubt in a criminal case. Farv is the law guy, and if he had made the same implication, I think it would have been dishonest. For you, I think you maybe just don’t think the distinction matters all that much. But the effect is greatly overstating your evidence for rhetorical effect, and (at best) expecting your readers to look up the caveats themselves or (at worst) hoping they’ll just believe you at face value and never check your work. You failed to mention that the 12 jurors were in a civil case against a private individual, not against the government. That meant that a) the burden of proof was a lot lower, and b) that no one was allowed to present evidence to contradict the allegations about the government’s involvement. I believe the conclusion of that case was an award of $100 to the King family. None of that proves the government didn’t kill him, of course, and I’m not well-acquainted with the timeline, forensics, etc. of the case. It’s absolutely true that the US government did a lot of fucked up stuff in response to the civil rights movement and King specifically. Hoover in particular, as I understand, seemed to have an almost personal vendetta. But when you overstate your evidence like that, it makes me think I’m being sold something. Anyway, like I said, probably not a rabbit hole worth going down, particularly when mods have warned you about conspiracy theories before. "The FBI conspired to try to get him to kill himself, so they definitely tried to make him dead." "The US government was conspiring to end his life and then he was killed" are alternative ways I could put it but it is a silly thing to argue imo. Sure, I’m eager to drop it. Iirc Hoover sent him a letter containing blackmail photos obtained from their illegal surveillance, and threatened to release them if he didn’t kill himself. If you wanna say “at that point it’s of little importance whether they actually paid a guy to pull the trigger,” I have no problem with that. And anyway there’s surely more immediately relevant things to discuss in a politics thread. The point was that the US government designated him the most dangerous negro in the country and cited communism as a reason. If you want to address global injustice in a serious way I strongly suggest you look into socialism, because voting for people like Biden isn't it. Nor Sanders, apparently. Perhaps I’m jumping ahead in my socialist reading, but permit me one spoiler: what, then, would you have us do with our votes? Not vote at all? Write in a socialist we know has zero possibility of winning? Vote Trump to accelerate capitalism’s demise? I'd put voting for Sanders at the 'right' flank of people that are potential comrades at the moment. I don't personally subscribe to electoralism in the US for a lot reasons but I can accept pretty much all the non-reformist reforms and harm reduction arguments. The part that I can't sign up for is his lingering neoimperialst positions/perspectives. I don't have to choose in the general (because of our broken electoral system) but I do have to decide if I'll vote for Sanders in the primary. In that, I'm basically at the point where I don't think electoralism works, but I don't see the harm in me voting for Sanders in the primary. The general is a different animal in that there is potential damage in basically a slightly better repeat of Obama where he kills countless innocent people around the world and neoliberals and progressives go back to brunch. Part of that comes from the constant FDR references by Bernie people with little to no regard of the valid negative associations that brings up for oppressed communities in the US. As to what to do, I wouldn't tell you you should or shouldn't vote for Bernie, but you should know what voting for him can and can't accomplish and what role you play in that. I also think studying socialism/ists will help you immensely as it has some of the most heroic people of the civil rights movement and beyond.
How much exaggeration should I read into this? “Constant FDR references” are a good reason for “oppressed communities” not to vote for Bernie in the general election?
l
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On March 06 2020 09:31 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2020 00:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 06 2020 00:28 ChristianS wrote:On March 06 2020 00:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 05 2020 23:54 ChristianS wrote:On March 05 2020 20:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 05 2020 14:55 ChristianS wrote:On March 05 2020 14:27 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 05 2020 14:24 ChristianS wrote:On March 05 2020 13:54 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I don't think people literally see no difference, I think when people say that they are trying to express the argument I presented more or less. For many it is like choosing between drinking a shit shake with 50% shit and another with 75% shit or just taking your chances kicking the asses of the guys trying to force you to choose, even if you're outnumbered.
If you have good healthcare and dead palate maybe it's worth choking down another 50-50 shit shake to dodge the 75% one but eventually the people that always get stuck with the shit half of the shake are going to be willing to risk the 75% shake getting force fed to them to fight for no more shit shakes period.
The guys drinking the milkshake half complaining about some shit frothing up around their portion or them losing their cream above the shit layer are the people that I find to be powerfully uninformed or (as Baldwin puts it) 'moral monsters' Sure, we’re all making judgments between principled and pragmatic all the time. I’ve heard a lot of metaphors on the subject (most weirdly fixated on ingesting feces for whatever reason). One issue I have with many of these metaphors is that the cost is not merely unpleasant or unhygienic, and the suffering is not just mine. Another is that I don’t actually have even a vague idea of how to address the problems other than the choices presented to me. You linked the Letter from Birmingham Jail earlier, and I think everyone ought to reread it once in a while. I did. And I don’t know what MLK would say about the world of today. Injustice is everywhere you look. I don’t know the answers to many of these injustices - either the right policy to ameliorate them, or the right political strategy to achieve that policy, or both. I mostly just try to improve things where I can. And there’s a lot of terrible injustices I think would be lessened by ousting Trump. There’s also a lot that wouldn’t; if I had a good idea how to improve those too, I’d pursue it. I still think a Sanders administration would be a better route, and I’m still hoping for it - of course, you’ve decided that’s still too high a fecal content for you. But what else can we do besides make things better as best we know how? MLK was pursuing a poor people's campaign and looking toward socialism for those answers just before the US government conspired to assassinate him. I'd start looking for answers to those questions there or grapple with the idea you may not care enough to look. “Government conspired to assassinate MLK” sounds like a rabbit hole we probably shouldn’t go down right now. Regarding “not caring enough,” I think I disagree with the framing. I mean, what are you suggesting exactly? Go read Marx? Fanon? Foucault? I’m not a politician, or a political scientist, or a leader of a social movement. I’m just a voter. I barely have time for books these days, and my background is in chemistry. Do you really think educating myself on the tenets of socialism will help address global injustice? I’d be willing to give it a shot. I haven’t pursued it yet because I thought it was unlikely to yield much of use to me or anyone else, but obviously without knowing much about it I’m not in a strong position to assess how much value it would bring. The US government conspired to assassinate MLK. After four weeks of testimony and over 70 witnesses in a civil trial in Memphis, Tennessee, twelve jurors reached a unanimous verdict on December 8, 1999 after about an hour of deliberations that Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was assassinated as a result of a conspiracy.
The jury was clearly convinced by the extensive evidence that was presented during the trial that... the conspiracy of the Mafia, local, state and federal government agencies, were deeply involved in the assassination of my husband. thekingcenter.orgIf that's not enough we know without a doubt the FBI was trying to drive him to suicide, illegally surveilling him, and so on. As for socialism, it was critical to the civil rights movement for one. As a source of understanding, method of action, and a reason for the US government to destroy your life. "We must mark [MLK] now, if we have not done so before, as the most dangerous Negro of the future in this Nation from the standpoint of communism, the Negro and national security," FBI Domestic Intelligence Chief William Sullivan wrote I recommend Pedagogy of the Oppressed as a good start but I promise being "just a voter" isn't good enough for anything more than maintaining the status quo path which promises certain doom. So yes, I do believe you educating yourself on socialism will make you more capable of joining in solidarity with millions of people around the globe in addressing global injustices beyond voting for lesser evils. I’m trying to decide if I think it’s dishonest to imply 12 jurors reached a verdict to that effect beyond reasonable doubt in a criminal case. Farv is the law guy, and if he had made the same implication, I think it would have been dishonest. For you, I think you maybe just don’t think the distinction matters all that much. But the effect is greatly overstating your evidence for rhetorical effect, and (at best) expecting your readers to look up the caveats themselves or (at worst) hoping they’ll just believe you at face value and never check your work. You failed to mention that the 12 jurors were in a civil case against a private individual, not against the government. That meant that a) the burden of proof was a lot lower, and b) that no one was allowed to present evidence to contradict the allegations about the government’s involvement. I believe the conclusion of that case was an award of $100 to the King family. None of that proves the government didn’t kill him, of course, and I’m not well-acquainted with the timeline, forensics, etc. of the case. It’s absolutely true that the US government did a lot of fucked up stuff in response to the civil rights movement and King specifically. Hoover in particular, as I understand, seemed to have an almost personal vendetta. But when you overstate your evidence like that, it makes me think I’m being sold something. Anyway, like I said, probably not a rabbit hole worth going down, particularly when mods have warned you about conspiracy theories before. "The FBI conspired to try to get him to kill himself, so they definitely tried to make him dead." "The US government was conspiring to end his life and then he was killed" are alternative ways I could put it but it is a silly thing to argue imo. Sure, I’m eager to drop it. Iirc Hoover sent him a letter containing blackmail photos obtained from their illegal surveillance, and threatened to release them if he didn’t kill himself. If you wanna say “at that point it’s of little importance whether they actually paid a guy to pull the trigger,” I have no problem with that. And anyway there’s surely more immediately relevant things to discuss in a politics thread. The point was that the US government designated him the most dangerous negro in the country and cited communism as a reason. If you want to address global injustice in a serious way I strongly suggest you look into socialism, because voting for people like Biden isn't it. Nor Sanders, apparently. Perhaps I’m jumping ahead in my socialist reading, but permit me one spoiler: what, then, would you have us do with our votes? Not vote at all? Write in a socialist we know has zero possibility of winning? Vote Trump to accelerate capitalism’s demise? I'd put voting for Sanders at the 'right' flank of people that are potential comrades at the moment. I don't personally subscribe to electoralism in the US for a lot reasons but I can accept pretty much all the non-reformist reforms and harm reduction arguments. The part that I can't sign up for is his lingering neoimperialst positions/perspectives. I don't have to choose in the general (because of our broken electoral system) but I do have to decide if I'll vote for Sanders in the primary. In that, I'm basically at the point where I don't think electoralism works, but I don't see the harm in me voting for Sanders in the primary. The general is a different animal in that there is potential damage in basically a slightly better repeat of Obama where he kills countless innocent people around the world and neoliberals and progressives go back to brunch. Part of that comes from the constant FDR references by Bernie people with little to no regard of the valid negative associations that brings up for oppressed communities in the US. As to what to do, I wouldn't tell you you should or shouldn't vote for Bernie, but you should know what voting for him can and can't accomplish and what role you play in that. I also think studying socialism/ists will help you immensely as it has some of the most heroic people of the civil rights movement and beyond. How much exaggeration should I read into this? “Constant FDR references” are a good reason for “oppressed communities” not to vote for Bernie in the general election? l
No. the Constant FDR references without consideration for his antisemitism, support of eugenics, and sacrificing something like the anti-lynching bill (most of them at least think about Japanese internment) gives me pause that Bernie could lead something similar.
Times are different, and so is Bernie but basically I see that more manifesting as a Green New Deal again leaving out oppressed people in the US and around. More specifically that it preys on the global south.
To expand a bit, I think his supporters would go to the mat to make sure marginalized people get healthcare, something close to a living wage, and most of them would be okay with some combination of debt relief and free college. I think free college or removing college debt from marginalized communities would be a sticking point for a variety reasons, around "responsibility" and "they knew the rules" type stuff from his more conservative supporters, I suspect.
But his supporters know that even if he doesn't budge an inch, Congress and the Senate won't give him what he's campaigning on, and can't all be replaced until he's into his second term (if he had one). So that means anything he does pass would be a compromise. Considering the GND as it has been articulated by progressives doesn't even typically mention the global south, I'm not confident they are beginning the negotiation with Republicans with any consideration for the horrific costs borne by the peoples of the global south.
To the aspect of "how do we get from here to a decent society" I'd say the risk presented by the damage mitigation of Bernie is that
1. It preserves capitalism and capitalism is inherently and unavoidably exploitative imo.
2. It could lead to people enjoying their newfound comfort without grappling with the massive human suffering just out of view that sustains it.
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A federal judge (appointed by GWB) presiding over a freedom of information case from Buzzfeed to get the Mueller report unredacted, just ordered DoJ to deliver him an unredacted report because he can't trust AG Barr's credibility and says Barr might've worked to favor Trump. He doesn't mince words.
A federal judge on Thursday ordered the Department of Justice (DOJ) to hand over to him a copy of the unredacted Mueller report and accused Attorney General William Barr of misrepresenting its findings in the days before it was submitted to Congress last year.
Judge Reggie B. Walton, a federal district court judge in Washington, said that he could not reconcile Barr's public comments in April 2019 about the report with the actual findings that former special counsel Robert Mueller outlined.
"The inconsistencies between Attorney General Barr’s statements, made at a time when the public did not have access to the redacted version of the Mueller Report to assess the veracity of his statements, and portions of the redacted version of the Mueller Report that conflict with those statements cause the Court to seriously question whether Attorney General Barr made a calculated attempt to influence public discourse about the Mueller Report in favor of President Trump despite certain findings in the redacted version of the Mueller Report to the contrary," Walton wrote in his decision.
"These circumstances generally, and Attorney General Barr’s lack of candor specifically, call into question Attorney General Barr’s credibility" as well as the DOJ's arguments in a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuit, Walton added.
source
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On March 05 2020 22:50 GreenHorizons wrote:Alabama is scheduled to kill a man tonight for killing cops literally no one disputes were killed by someone else who has confessed and been convicted. Show nested quote +Hours after a federal judge denied a stay request in the upcoming execution of Alabama prisoner Nathaniel Woods, the son of Martin Luther King Jr. released an open letter to Gov. Kay Ivey asking her to intervene in the case.
Woods is slated to be killed via lethal injection on Thursday for his capital murder convictions in the shooting deaths of three Birmingham police officers in June 2004.
By all accounts, Woods was not the shooter and did not have a gun at the time of the shooting. Woods was instead convicted of capital murder, despite personally killing no one www.montgomeryadvertiser.com
They killed (murdered?) him after a last minute stay was denied by the US Supreme Court.
Alabama has executed inmate Nathaniel Woods for the 2004 murders of three Birmingham police officers, the state corrections department said.
Woods, 42, did not give a final statement. He was pronounced dead at 9:01 p.m. local time, the department said in a statement Thursday.
Alabama Gov. Kay Ivey refused to stop the controversial execution, and the US Supreme Court denied a last-minute stay, after first ordering a temporary halt only minutes before Woods had been scheduled to die.
www.cnn.com
He didn't have to die. Our society feels bottomless in its depravity sometimes. This imo is what happens when people prioritize process over justice. Innocent people are killed and no one is held accountable.
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The self-flagellation coupled with the idea that you going to work to provide value and services for your fellow man isn't worthy of self-worth is so very odd to me. It's too eerily reminiscent of Christian puritanism (ironically so...). There are a great deal of injustices in this world and you're not any less a person if you don't devote yourself 24/7.
Can you guys enlighten me as to why self-guilt, loathing, and original sin is so prevalent amongst leftist circles? It's bewildering as the "left" is typically pretty non-Christian.
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On March 06 2020 14:07 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2020 22:50 GreenHorizons wrote:Alabama is scheduled to kill a man tonight for killing cops literally no one disputes were killed by someone else who has confessed and been convicted. Hours after a federal judge denied a stay request in the upcoming execution of Alabama prisoner Nathaniel Woods, the son of Martin Luther King Jr. released an open letter to Gov. Kay Ivey asking her to intervene in the case.
Woods is slated to be killed via lethal injection on Thursday for his capital murder convictions in the shooting deaths of three Birmingham police officers in June 2004.
By all accounts, Woods was not the shooter and did not have a gun at the time of the shooting. Woods was instead convicted of capital murder, despite personally killing no one www.montgomeryadvertiser.com They killed (murdered?) him after a last minute stay was denied by the US Supreme Court. Show nested quote +Alabama has executed inmate Nathaniel Woods for the 2004 murders of three Birmingham police officers, the state corrections department said.
Woods, 42, did not give a final statement. He was pronounced dead at 9:01 p.m. local time, the department said in a statement Thursday.
Alabama Gov. Kay Ivey refused to stop the controversial execution, and the US Supreme Court denied a last-minute stay, after first ordering a temporary halt only minutes before Woods had been scheduled to die. www.cnn.comHe didn't have to die. Our society feels bottomless in its depravity sometimes. This imo is what happens when people prioritize process over justice. Innocent people are killed and no one is held accountable.
Capital punishment absolutely needs to be abolished, which, is an area I could see a wide coalition for...if it wasn't for Trumpism. Maybe when the cops start going after folks guns like in VA, the "right" can stop sucking their dicks off and could get some real action to get rid of it. Then again...it is Alabama.
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On March 06 2020 16:10 Wegandi wrote:
The self-flagellation coupled with the idea that you going to work to provide value and services for your fellow man isn't worthy of self-worth is so very odd to me. It's too eerily reminiscent of Christian puritanism (ironically so...). There are a great deal of injustices in this world and you're not any less a person if you don't devote yourself 24/7.
Can you guys enlighten me as to why self-guilt, loathing, and original sin is so prevalent amongst leftist circles? It's bewildering as the "left" is typically pretty non-Christian.
My understanding is through a Freireian lens about revolutionary love which suggests that the world is what we make of it and in my research of the people that fought "24/7" if you will, I find an obligation to carry that torch of liberation with oppressed peoples around the world.
When I personally grapple with the immense suffering around the world, injustices in the case of the man Alabama just killed, and so on I find my raging about the outcome of a SC2 match or a shitty ending of a series sorta inflammatory to the spirit of that commitment.
On the other hand, I'm not one for endless self-flagellation about it. I think I said before something to the effect that my 'unsolicited prescription' is to sit with the uncomfortable feelings about not doing anything about the massive human suffering that powers the luxuries most of us enjoy from capitalism (or politically supporting it), feel bad about it, then forgive yourself (or ask from God if that's your thing), and get up and seriously get to work (or reconcile your apathy with your morality in a real way).
Finally, I would just add that it then doesn't mean you have to go live in a commune in the woods or you're a worthless hypocrite imo. As I discussed with ChristianS it is a matter of prioritization and your own well-being and mental health shouldn't be haphazardly discarded for the sake of purity.
EDIT: I guess I should finish the actual thought with: My suggestion is that you see that manifest as self-guilt, loathing, original sin, denial, rationalization, etc... because, like myself just a couple years ago, most people (on the US left, and in the US generally) lack the historical, ideological, and rhetorical framework to digest it all the way I describe. Could make a point about people's alienation from their labor and the fruits of it but I'm trying not to rant.
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On March 06 2020 14:07 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2020 22:50 GreenHorizons wrote:Alabama is scheduled to kill a man tonight for killing cops literally no one disputes were killed by someone else who has confessed and been convicted. Hours after a federal judge denied a stay request in the upcoming execution of Alabama prisoner Nathaniel Woods, the son of Martin Luther King Jr. released an open letter to Gov. Kay Ivey asking her to intervene in the case.
Woods is slated to be killed via lethal injection on Thursday for his capital murder convictions in the shooting deaths of three Birmingham police officers in June 2004.
By all accounts, Woods was not the shooter and did not have a gun at the time of the shooting. Woods was instead convicted of capital murder, despite personally killing no one www.montgomeryadvertiser.com They killed (murdered?) him after a last minute stay was denied by the US Supreme Court. Show nested quote +Alabama has executed inmate Nathaniel Woods for the 2004 murders of three Birmingham police officers, the state corrections department said.
Woods, 42, did not give a final statement. He was pronounced dead at 9:01 p.m. local time, the department said in a statement Thursday.
Alabama Gov. Kay Ivey refused to stop the controversial execution, and the US Supreme Court denied a last-minute stay, after first ordering a temporary halt only minutes before Woods had been scheduled to die. www.cnn.comHe didn't have to die. Our society feels bottomless in its depravity sometimes. This imo is what happens when people prioritize process over justice. Innocent people are killed and no one is held accountable.
You have a history of leaving out important details to suit your narrative. From your CNN article:
Woods had threatened Owen, who had arrested him as a teenager, that morning, he said. Upon learning Woods had a misdemeanor assault warrant, the four officers returned to the apartment and told Woods to come outside, Marshall wrote.
"If you come in here, we'll f**k you up," Marshall quoted Woods as saying.
Chisholm went to the back and showed the warrant to Woods, who ran into the apartment, and the officers gave chase. Woods surrendered and asked the officers not to Mace him, the letter said.
Collins went outside and heard gunfire. Spencer shot Chisholm as he tried to retreat, Marshall said, and when Woods tried to escape, he saw Collins and said, "There's someone else. We got another one right here," and Spencer opened fire on Collins, who took a bullet in the thigh as he took cover and called for backup, the prosecutor said.
When help arrived, Bennett was found outside the front door, shot in the head, and Chisholm and Owen were inside. They had been shot in the back, through their bulletproof vests, Marshall wrote. All three were dead.
Investigators found Spencer in a neighbor's attic, and Woods "was found sitting on a nearby porch, apparently 'very relaxed' and carrying two .22 caliber bullets in his pocket," his letter said.
"Although Woods was not the shooter, he was hardly an innocent bystander," Marshall wrote, explaining that Woods allegedly bragged about the shootings, threatened a sheriff's deputy and composed drawings and songs boasting of the killings.
The guy was outside, ran into the house to pretend to surrender so that his friend could shoot the cops in the back. Then he bragged about the whole thing.
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On March 06 2020 17:52 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2020 14:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 05 2020 22:50 GreenHorizons wrote:Alabama is scheduled to kill a man tonight for killing cops literally no one disputes were killed by someone else who has confessed and been convicted. Hours after a federal judge denied a stay request in the upcoming execution of Alabama prisoner Nathaniel Woods, the son of Martin Luther King Jr. released an open letter to Gov. Kay Ivey asking her to intervene in the case.
Woods is slated to be killed via lethal injection on Thursday for his capital murder convictions in the shooting deaths of three Birmingham police officers in June 2004.
By all accounts, Woods was not the shooter and did not have a gun at the time of the shooting. Woods was instead convicted of capital murder, despite personally killing no one www.montgomeryadvertiser.com They killed (murdered?) him after a last minute stay was denied by the US Supreme Court. Alabama has executed inmate Nathaniel Woods for the 2004 murders of three Birmingham police officers, the state corrections department said.
Woods, 42, did not give a final statement. He was pronounced dead at 9:01 p.m. local time, the department said in a statement Thursday.
Alabama Gov. Kay Ivey refused to stop the controversial execution, and the US Supreme Court denied a last-minute stay, after first ordering a temporary halt only minutes before Woods had been scheduled to die. www.cnn.comHe didn't have to die. Our society feels bottomless in its depravity sometimes. This imo is what happens when people prioritize process over justice. Innocent people are killed and no one is held accountable. You have a history of leaving out important details to suit your narrative. From your CNN article: Show nested quote +Woods had threatened Owen, who had arrested him as a teenager, that morning, he said. Upon learning Woods had a misdemeanor assault warrant, the four officers returned to the apartment and told Woods to come outside, Marshall wrote.
"If you come in here, we'll f**k you up," Marshall quoted Woods as saying.
Chisholm went to the back and showed the warrant to Woods, who ran into the apartment, and the officers gave chase. Woods surrendered and asked the officers not to Mace him, the letter said.
Collins went outside and heard gunfire. Spencer shot Chisholm as he tried to retreat, Marshall said, and when Woods tried to escape, he saw Collins and said, "There's someone else. We got another one right here," and Spencer opened fire on Collins, who took a bullet in the thigh as he took cover and called for backup, the prosecutor said.
When help arrived, Bennett was found outside the front door, shot in the head, and Chisholm and Owen were inside. They had been shot in the back, through their bulletproof vests, Marshall wrote. All three were dead.
Investigators found Spencer in a neighbor's attic, and Woods "was found sitting on a nearby porch, apparently 'very relaxed' and carrying two .22 caliber bullets in his pocket," his letter said.
"Although Woods was not the shooter, he was hardly an innocent bystander," Marshall wrote, explaining that Woods allegedly bragged about the shootings, threatened a sheriff's deputy and composed drawings and songs boasting of the killings. The guy was outside, ran into the house to pretend to surrender so that his friend could shoot the cops in the back. Then he bragged about the whole thing.
That's what the AG claims anyway. The actual shooters explanation of events makes a lot more sense imo.
I think even if the worst version for Woods is true, killing him in cold blood isn't justice, period.
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Every time there is a kerfuffle about your posting history, you manage to demonstrate the issue within hours of it coming up.
Your intro to the topic was:
On March 05 2020 22:50 GreenHorizons wrote:
Alabama is scheduled to kill a man tonight for killing cops literally no one disputes were killed by someone else who has confessed and been convicted.
This is beyond misleading when the situation he was convicted for is luring a group of police so that an accomplice could murder them.
If you dispute the version of events relied on by the court, go ahead and make that argument. If you are opposed to capital punishment, go ahead and make that argument as well - all of us will agree.
There is, however, no way to pivot to either of those positions from your original statement in any semblance of good faith. This pattern of resorting to spin and disinformation in pursuit of your agenda is why many people have issues with you.
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It’s pretty scary how all in the media and establishment is on destroying Bernies movement now that it’s him vs Biden. Even NPR, who was pretty fair before, is smearing him. Every MSM article you see bashed him or is neutral but written on a topic no one cares about or his highly hypothetical. Billions of dollars are being put toward electing Biden. Some would say certain future dystopian literature has a similar plot
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On March 06 2020 19:48 Belisarius wrote:Every time there is a kerfuffle about your posting history, you manage to demonstrate the issue within hours of it coming up. Your intro to the topic was: Show nested quote +On March 05 2020 22:50 GreenHorizons wrote:
Alabama is scheduled to kill a man tonight for killing cops literally no one disputes were killed by someone else who has confessed and been convicted.
This is beyond misleading when the situation he was convicted for is luring a group of police so that an accomplice could murder them. If you dispute the version of events relied on by the court, go ahead and make that argument. If you are opposed to capital punishment, go ahead and make that argument as well - all of us will agree. There is, however, no way to pivot to either of those positions from your original statement in any semblance of good faith. This pattern of resorting to spin and disinformation in pursuit of your agenda is why many people have issues with you.
ignorant question, is that what he was convicted of? is that murder?
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EPT
