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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 216

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
PeTraSoHot
Profile Joined February 2018
0 Posts
May 22 2018 00:57 GMT
#4301
On May 22 2018 03:23 PeTraSoHot wrote:
Unrelated note:
My ban period has expired but I'm still unable to send PMs. Can some mod look into that for me plz?

Would someone be so kind as to PM a mod asking him to PM me about my inability to send PMs?
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
May 22 2018 01:01 GMT
#4302
On May 22 2018 09:57 PeTraSoHot wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 22 2018 03:23 PeTraSoHot wrote:
Unrelated note:
My ban period has expired but I'm still unable to send PMs. Can some mod look into that for me plz?

Would someone be so kind as to PM a mod asking him to PM me about my inability to send PMs?

I left one of them a note in another thread; generally speaking for stuff like that it's best to try in the website feedback forum. (that's where I put the note)
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-22 01:10:24
May 22 2018 01:09 GMT
#4303


This is the entire reason why the Republicans spent millions investigating the private server issue. And it’s not like this is a new issue. NPR reportered on this less than two weeks after Trump took office.



Any amount of information, classified or potentially harmful to Trump himself, could be stolen from that phone. Or put him and his security detail at risk. It was pointed out over a year ago and no one did anything.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43203 Posts
May 22 2018 01:50 GMT
#4304
On May 22 2018 09:57 PeTraSoHot wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 22 2018 03:23 PeTraSoHot wrote:
Unrelated note:
My ban period has expired but I'm still unable to send PMs. Can some mod look into that for me plz?

Would someone be so kind as to PM a mod asking him to PM me about my inability to send PMs?

Your PM function is disabled. Presumably a mod did so on purpose. Take it to website feedback but I'm guessing you know what you did.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35160 Posts
May 22 2018 02:03 GMT
#4305
Sad thing is I can already hear the "But Hillary did it and she isn't in jail, so it's fine that he does it."
Emnjay808
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
United States10660 Posts
May 22 2018 02:23 GMT
#4306
Id love a hypothetical where Trump deletes thousands of "classified/non-classified" emails and nothing happens to him.
Skol
Reivax
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden214 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-22 08:36:15
May 22 2018 08:31 GMT
#4307
https://apnews.com/a3521859cf8d4c199cb9a8567abd2b71

Holy balls, this is some swampy behavior.

Basically two convicted felons, one for bribery, another for pedophilia manages a campaign to succesfully discredit Qatar in the eyes of the White House, with the goal of moving the huge base in Qatar to UAE and also being part of one of the current tense situations in the Middle where Qatars neighbours is blockading them.

All while not registering under the FARA act. Broidy was also the 3rd client of Michael Cohens, who apparently paid an ex Playboy Playmate for an abortion after their affair.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-22 13:28:36
May 22 2018 11:42 GMT
#4308
On May 22 2018 10:09 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/cbudoffbrown/status/998701637886775299

This is the entire reason why the Republicans spent millions investigating the private server issue. And it’s not like this is a new issue. NPR reportered on this less than two weeks after Trump took office.

https://twitter.com/samsanders/status/998731284808527872

Any amount of information, classified or potentially harmful to Trump himself, could be stolen from that phone. Or put him and his security detail at risk. It was pointed out over a year ago and no one did anything.

IIRC he wasn't following security protocol in Mar a Lago and used private email servers during the transition too.

Edit: pile of Trump's people had their security clearances downgraded recently.. I'd assume with cause.
iamthedave
Profile Joined February 2011
England2814 Posts
May 22 2018 13:13 GMT
#4309
On May 22 2018 11:23 Emnjay808 wrote:
Id love a hypothetical where Trump deletes thousands of "classified/non-classified" emails and nothing happens to him.


I think that's already happened, hasn't it? I'm CERTAIN there was a mini news story some months ago where Trump-affiliated guys were acid-washing some files one of the justice departments were after.

Someone help me out here?
I'm not bad at Starcraft; I just think winning's rude.
a_flayer
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Netherlands2826 Posts
May 22 2018 14:59 GMT
#4310
You'll likely see it happen when at the end of the Mueller investigation, he'll go "he acted very dubious in some instances, but I will not recommend filing charges against President Trump" or something like that.
When you came along so righteous with a new national hate, so convincing is the ardor of war and of men, it's harder to breathe than to believe you're a friend. The wars at home, the wars abroad, all soaked in blood and lies and fraud.
Dan HH
Profile Joined July 2012
Romania9135 Posts
May 22 2018 15:39 GMT
#4311
On May 22 2018 06:40 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 22 2018 04:02 Dan HH wrote:
On May 22 2018 03:15 IgnE wrote:
On May 22 2018 02:26 Dan HH wrote:
On May 22 2018 00:55 IgnE wrote:
On May 21 2018 23:23 Dan HH wrote:
On May 21 2018 02:40 IgnE wrote:
On May 21 2018 00:31 KwarK wrote:
On May 21 2018 00:05 IgnE wrote:
On May 20 2018 22:47 Dan HH wrote:
[quote]
I don't see how it's cynical to think that humans are not magically exempt from causality.


Is the universe itself magically exempt from causality? If not, what caused it?

I don’t know, and that’s perfectly acceptable as answers go. Ignorance is far better than a bad answer.


or we can say, like Kant, that causality is properly restricted to the realm of phenomena and so does not apply to the totality of the universe, its existence as such. and we can also say that consciousness is a hard problem

It's been almost 10 years since I read anything by him but I'm not aware of him suggesting that. Kant's main premise for reality as it is was that no properties can be assigned to it with any certainty because we are unable to perceive it as it is, this should include any relationship it may or may not have with causality. For example if time were an abstraction of entropy, what's to stop causality being an abstraction of a property of entropy?

Regardless, going back to accountability, our society doesn't explain that by denying that time and space are real or that real knowledge is possible, but it passively accepts that the distinction between free will and the perfect illusion of free will is not relevant.

Personally I find that drawing the line for agency right below us is far more anthropocentric than thinking we can derive some definite laws of nature from observation with our limited tools.


causality is something properly restricted to phenomena, like entropy. biff points out the Kantian antinomies in the post above yours. what if time were an abstraction of entropy and causality were an abstraction of a property of entropy? what would that tell us about whether the universe was caused or what caused the universe?

How is 'properly restricting' something from the unknowable (your premise, not mine - or rather Kant's) not akin to assigning it properties based on thin air? That was the point of the first paragraph, not solving the problem of the origin of matter.

On May 21 2018 23:37 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
On May 21 2018 18:18 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On May 21 2018 02:40 IgnE wrote:
On May 21 2018 00:31 KwarK wrote:
On May 21 2018 00:05 IgnE wrote:
On May 20 2018 22:47 Dan HH wrote:
[quote]
I don't see how it's cynical to think that humans are not magically exempt from causality.


Is the universe itself magically exempt from causality? If not, what caused it?

I don’t know, and that’s perfectly acceptable as answers go. Ignorance is far better than a bad answer.


or we can say, like Kant, that causality is properly restricted to the realm of phenomena and so does not apply to the totality of the universe, its existence as such. and we can also say that consciousness is a hard problem

And that was before physicists discovered that the universe is probabilistic as soon as you go small enough.

That being said good old Immanuel’s main contribution is to place old fashioned metaphysical problems such as, precisely, the question of free will and determinism out of reach of human reason. Hell, in Critique of Pure reason, the chapter « The antinomy of pure reason » actually demonstrates with extreme certainty both the thesis: « There are in the world causes through freedom »
and antithesis: « There is no freedom, but all is nature » in order to demonstrate that we have no clue and never will.


I'm not sold on the idea that probabilistic laws are necessarily a problem for determinism in the philosophical sense (certainly, by the mathematical definition, they aren't deterministic, but mathematical determinism isn't trying to discuss free will). Even if the way our brains work is almost entirely a product of at least slightly random processes, I don't think that gives us any more control, it just makes our future thoughts, circumstances and actions unknowable, even in theory given perfect at-the-time information and computation. Although these are ramblings at best.


I can only agree that particle randomness having a role in our thoughts doesn't seem any more or less free than an uninterrupted progression of states. It's difficult to find a niche for free will without having to resort to transcendental speculation. As for the problems of determinism, while I'm not convinced of hard determinism, I don't find it incompatible with loss of information and inaccessible information. It's not necessary for perfect prediction and retrodiction to be possible for things to be inevitable.


causality is a property of phenomena, or appearance. thats entirely the point. we cannot speak of causality beyond appearance according to Kant (and others obviously). my understanding was that you were the one trying to impart properties "out of thin air" towards the unknowable (ie the universe in its totality).

but to go on, since consciousness is constitutively split, we cannot "see" or access our unconscious, the "i think" is split from the (objective) "thing that thinks" we cannot speak of causality for the thinking subject. to do so would be to assign properties out of thin air

You do not see how circular that is? We cannot speak of causality of the thing in itself because we cannot speak of causality beyond appearances. And what is beyond appearances? Things in themselves. And why is it not a possibility for a property of phenomena to have any relationship with things in themselves? Because someone says so, after establishing that they cannot say anything about it.

And I'm still skeptical that they even said that. My understanding was that Kant thought causality can neither be proven or disproven. I guess you could express that with 'we cannot speak of..' but not by claiming it definitely can't be a property of or related to 'the universe in its totality'.


it's not circular. your second paragraph is closer to the point, but Biff already pointed out where Kant talks about this and you can read the wiki if you prefer a summary.

i like this little essay, if you still feel 'skeptical'

Show nested quote +
What is a Noumenon? Ask any (philosophy) person on the street, and you’ll no doubt hear how Kant divided the world into the phenomenon and noumenon, and that we can’t know anything about the noumenon, but have to resign ourselves to dealing with phenomenon, things in themselves vs appearances, etc etc.

But even in this dismissive simplification an inconsistency has already emerged. How could have Kant divided the world into two parts and then gone on, with a perfectly straight face, to deny that we could have any knowledge of the second part? Isn’t the very division itself, and the agnostic claim about unknowability, presenting us with knowledge of what is unknowable? That is, hasn’t Kant, at the outset, committed a self-referential contradiction that any philosophy undergrad could spot with a blindfold on: “I know that the noumenon is unknowable”.

The foolish thing would be to think that Kant has missed something so fundamental . . . We would be sabotaged right out of the gate if we didn’t put to rest a very common way of talking about the noumenon that is, nonetheless, obviously flawed. That is the noumenon as cause of the phenomenon.


'It's not circular' doesn't do it for me, your argument as to why causality is 'properly restricted to phenomena' rather than just a property of phenomena (with no claims of exclusivity) was as tautological as can be. Any additional attempt at showing you that would simply be rephrasing it, the more we dwell on this phrase the more made up on the spot it appears to be. Whether we're talking about this from Kant's premises or not, there's an inherent contradiction to any claim that causality cannot exist outside of perception.

Bringing google into this didn't help either. Let's look at his own words, we don't need a blogpost to filter it for us, it's concise enough.

Now I may say without contradiction: that all the actions of rational beings, so far as they are appearances (occurring in any experience), are subject to the necessity of nature; but the same actions, as regards merely the rational subject and its faculty of acting according to mere reason, are free. For what is required for the necessity of nature? Nothing more than the determinability of every event in the world of sense according to constant laws, that is, a reference to cause in the appearance; in this process the thing in itself at its foundation and its causality remain unknown. But I say, that the law of nature remains, whether the rational being is the cause of the effects in the sensuous world from reason, that is, through freedom, or whether it does not determine them on grounds of reason.

For, if the former is the case, the action is performed according to maxims, the effect of which as appearance is always conformable to constant laws; if the latter is the case, and the action not performed on principles of reason, it is subjected to the empirical laws of the sensibility, and in both cases the effects are connected according to constant laws; more than this we do not require or know concerning natural necessity. But in the former case reason is the cause of these laws of nature, and therefore free; in the latter the effects follow according to mere natural laws of sensibility, because reason does not influence it; but reason itself is not determined on that account by the sensibility, and is therefore free in this case too. Freedom is therefore no hindrance to natural law in appearance, neither does this law abrogate the freedom of the practical use of reason, which is connected with things in themselves, as determining grounds.


From Prolegomena. Note how careful he is to not claim what you have claimed to know about noumena in these examples he gives. The bolded part in the quote you gave is attacking an argument I didn't make, that claiming the existence of noumena is assigning it a property. Even though it is a problem, I do agree that would be a daft way to approach any hypothetical. The argument I did make was specifically about assigning it properties beyond that, such as being restricted from causality, something that doesn't follow from merely accepting its existence.

In any case, the idea that beings-in-themselves could be (not necessarily are) spontaneous is of no more use to us than answering your repeated gotcha question of 'what caused the universe?' by saying it could have started spontaneously or that it could be the initial cause of of the entire causal chain it contains. Answers that would have no basis other than imagination, the square circle kind of imagination. I'm fine with the simpler I don't know.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
May 22 2018 15:54 GMT
#4312
i dont understand why youve taken such an issue with the clause, "causality is properly restricted to phenomena." because you want it to be possibly applicable to something which marks the beyond which we cannot know about? and if i said "redness is properly restricted to the domain of phenomena" would you be equally as miffed?

but its clear youve missed the point at the end when you say "the idea that beings-in-themselves could be (not necessarily are) spontaneous is of no more use to us than answerinng your repeated gotcha question." spontaneity, as the antithesis of causality, is properly restricted to the realm of phenomena, sorry to tell you
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 22 2018 17:23 GMT
#4313
Trump's plan to bail out ZTE seems to be angering all the wrong people.

The hearing came on the same day that the Senate Banking Committee approved an amendment that would block Trump from easing sanctions on ZTE without first certifying to Congress that the company is complying with U.S. law, and a week after the House Appropriations Committee approved a similar provision.


The entire deal is rife with conflicts for Trump, from China's involvement in the NK talks to Trump's own business dealings. In Trump's quest for positive news coverage, he seems to be willing to bend over backwards for China ever since he saw what a real trade war would look like. He is America's paper tiger.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
PhoenixVoid
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Canada32743 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-22 19:26:30
May 22 2018 19:11 GMT
#4314
The AP and CNN was banned from a summit on water contamination held by the EPA.

EPA spokesman Jahan Wilcox told the barred organizations they were not invited and there was no space for them, but gave no indication of why they specifically were barred.

...

Guards barred an AP reporter from passing through a security checkpoint inside the building. When the reporter asked to speak to an EPA public-affairs person, the security guards grabbed the reporter by the shoulders and shoved her forcibly out of the EPA building.

https://www.apnews.com/a3521859cf8d4c199cb9a8567abd2b71


I can understand CNN, but this is the AP, the most barebones, fact-based reporting news agency around. I can't help but feel this is retaliation for breaking Trump's ties to Saudi Arabia and the UAE, because of the timing and the suspiciousness of them claiming they didn't invite or make space for the AP of all outlets.

At least the EPA did allow them back, but this isn't exactly a good precedent.
I'm afraid of demented knife-wielding escaped lunatic libertarian zombie mutants
Excludos
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Norway8150 Posts
May 22 2018 20:33 GMT
#4315
On May 23 2018 04:11 PhoenixVoid wrote:
The AP and CNN was banned from a summit on water contamination held by the EPA.

Show nested quote +
EPA spokesman Jahan Wilcox told the barred organizations they were not invited and there was no space for them, but gave no indication of why they specifically were barred.

...

Guards barred an AP reporter from passing through a security checkpoint inside the building. When the reporter asked to speak to an EPA public-affairs person, the security guards grabbed the reporter by the shoulders and shoved her forcibly out of the EPA building.

https://www.apnews.com/a3521859cf8d4c199cb9a8567abd2b71


I can understand CNN, but this is the AP, the most barebones, fact-based reporting news agency around. I can't help but feel this is retaliation for breaking Trump's ties to Saudi Arabia and the UAE, because of the timing and the suspiciousness of them claiming they didn't invite or make space for the AP of all outlets.

At least the EPA did allow them back, but this isn't exactly a good precedent.


I can't understand CNN either. They're far from the worst, and don't deserve half the rep they've been getting from the right winged crowd. It's not like we're barring The Onion here.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18838 Posts
May 22 2018 20:41 GMT
#4316
Not that Phoenix was doing this, but Golden Mean'ing media outlets a la casually asserting that entities like CNN are just as bad as Fox News is the bread and butter of conservative apologia.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 22 2018 20:46 GMT
#4317
And CNN and the AP were not banned for “valid” reasons. This denying access as punishment. I expect the Washington Press corps to circle the wagons, just like they did last time when the White House tried this.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-22 20:50:08
May 22 2018 20:49 GMT
#4318
On May 23 2018 05:33 Excludos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 23 2018 04:11 PhoenixVoid wrote:
The AP and CNN was banned from a summit on water contamination held by the EPA.

EPA spokesman Jahan Wilcox told the barred organizations they were not invited and there was no space for them, but gave no indication of why they specifically were barred.

...

Guards barred an AP reporter from passing through a security checkpoint inside the building. When the reporter asked to speak to an EPA public-affairs person, the security guards grabbed the reporter by the shoulders and shoved her forcibly out of the EPA building.

https://www.apnews.com/a3521859cf8d4c199cb9a8567abd2b71


I can understand CNN, but this is the AP, the most barebones, fact-based reporting news agency around. I can't help but feel this is retaliation for breaking Trump's ties to Saudi Arabia and the UAE, because of the timing and the suspiciousness of them claiming they didn't invite or make space for the AP of all outlets.

At least the EPA did allow them back, but this isn't exactly a good precedent.


I can't understand CNN either. They're far from the worst, and don't deserve half the rep they've been getting from the right winged crowd. It's not like we're barring The Onion here.

because it's not about quality or facts, but about manufactured grievances and taking vengeance for those?

it's easy to understand once you ignore factual justifications and focus on politics.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
PhoenixVoid
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Canada32743 Posts
May 22 2018 20:58 GMT
#4319
On May 23 2018 05:41 farvacola wrote:
Not that Phoenix was doing this, but Golden Mean'ing media outlets a la casually asserting that entities like CNN are just as bad as Fox News is the bread and butter of conservative apologia.

I put in CNN that way because we are all very well aware of the Trump administration's feelings about them. But the AP? They're the least offensive, most milquetoast reporting agency ever with like Reuters and AFP. Only reason I could see them getting banned was over their recent reveal of Trump's Middle East ties, because they rarely, if ever, get into partisanship or opinions.
I'm afraid of demented knife-wielding escaped lunatic libertarian zombie mutants
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21945 Posts
May 22 2018 21:01 GMT
#4320
On May 23 2018 05:58 PhoenixVoid wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 23 2018 05:41 farvacola wrote:
Not that Phoenix was doing this, but Golden Mean'ing media outlets a la casually asserting that entities like CNN are just as bad as Fox News is the bread and butter of conservative apologia.

I put in CNN that way because we are all very well aware of the Trump administration's feelings about them. But the AP? They're the least offensive, most milquetoast reporting agency ever with like Reuters and AFP. Only reason I could see them getting banned was over their recent reveal of Trump's Middle East ties, because they rarely, if ever, get into partisanship or opinions.
When your party is based on lies and misinformation the unbiased truth becomes an enemy.
This had nothing to do with partisanship. It was a punishment.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
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