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On February 24 2020 05:51 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2020 05:39 Nebuchad wrote:
The strengths of Sanders are the possibility to raise turnout, as Zambrah said, the capacity to have a meaningful and honest answer to economic arguments like "The economy is doing so well under Trump" that a liberal would have more trouble with, the capacity to address the concerns of swing states like Michigan and Wisconsin, and the fact that after four years of votebluenomatterwho, it's likely that you'll get a lot of liberals ready to vote for him even if they don't like him ideologically, something that is not true in the reverse for leftists and someone like Bloomberg.
Is that enough to win against the machine? I don't know. It's going to be close. But the data I've seen makes me think he is the most likely to win out of the candidates, biased as that conclusion may be. If Sanders has the best shot then the Democrats have no shot to beat Trump. The wealth of idiotic views and statements from Bernie is so long that Trump will have a field day with the ads and debates. Plus, I suspect there are more people like me out there that don't like Trump, but will absolutely run to the polls to vote against someone like Bernie. To me, Bernie looks like a repeat of '72 with McGovern. Bernie praising Daniel Ortega and the USSR just writes itself, and if he is going to push the Green New Deal, boy, that's going to go down like a lead balloon.
Am I right to assume that if I ask you why you’d run to the polls to oppose “someone like Bernie,” the word “socialism” is likely to be in your first few sentences?
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On February 24 2020 05:51 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2020 05:39 Nebuchad wrote:
The strengths of Sanders are the possibility to raise turnout, as Zambrah said, the capacity to have a meaningful and honest answer to economic arguments like "The economy is doing so well under Trump" that a liberal would have more trouble with, the capacity to address the concerns of swing states like Michigan and Wisconsin, and the fact that after four years of votebluenomatterwho, it's likely that you'll get a lot of liberals ready to vote for him even if they don't like him ideologically, something that is not true in the reverse for leftists and someone like Bloomberg.
Is that enough to win against the machine? I don't know. It's going to be close. But the data I've seen makes me think he is the most likely to win out of the candidates, biased as that conclusion may be. If Sanders has the best shot then the Democrats have no shot to beat Trump. The wealth of idiotic views and statements from Bernie is so long that Trump will have a field day with the ads and debates. Plus, I suspect there are more people like me out there that don't like Trump, but will absolutely run to the polls to vote against someone like Bernie. To me, Bernie looks like a repeat of '72 with McGovern. Bernie praising Daniel Ortega and the USSR just writes itself, and if he is going to push the Green New Deal, boy, that's going to go down like a lead balloon.
Pretty sure his head-to-head against Trump is one of the highest out of the Democratic candidates, and it's in Sanders's favor. Also, Sanders is polling very well in swing states.
From RealClearPolitics (polling repository):
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/xllPf8r.png)
Soooo... yeah. Obligatory reminder that not only is Bernie Sanders the most popular Democratic candidate, but he also polls the best against Donald Trump in the general election *and especially in swing states*. Even if you're a moderate who would prefer someone else to win the nomination, our unifying goal should be to beat Donald Trump. Sanders is our best chance to win the presidency. Let's not pretend that he's unelectable as he's winning in every state and winning nearly every voter demographic.
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On February 24 2020 05:55 Simberto wrote:
If people having idiotic views and statements stops you from voting for them, how do you manage to vote for Trump? He is pretty much the unchallenged world champion at having idiotic views and statements.
As bad as Trump is, Sanders is far worse.
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On February 24 2020 04:19 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2020 02:33 LegalLord wrote:
So, just had a thought: is anyone who posts here supporting any Dem candidate other than Sanders? I remember this place was split pretty strongly down the middle in 2016, but all the Hillary fans seem to have either gotten behind Sanders or at least just failed to back anyone else this time around. I find that kind of curious since he's not ideologically in sync with the standard vibe of this group. Can’t speak for others, obviously. I don’t think I was posting here yet during the 2016 DNC primary, and didn’t vote in it, but I was probably in the “I like Bernie better on policy, but Trump looks REALLY bad and Hillary seems stronger in the general” camp. There were/are theories that any Republican could just air the clip of Sanders saying “I’m a Democratic Socialist” on repeat in swing states and be virtually assured of victory, and I thought that could be a big issue. I still don’t know that that’s wrong. I’ve personally seen more than once the sequence of someone saying “I kinda like Sanders...” and someone else saying “Are you kidding? You can’t vote for a socialist!” and the first person kinda nodding like “yeah, maybe you’re right...” Anecdotal, obviously, and who knows if the nodding was just polite, but I do think the decades of mudslinging and caricaturization attached to the word “socialist” is a potential problem. But this time around I’m not putting so much stock in that, partly because I feel like everybody understands that’s not really where the battle lines are any more. Republicans’ stock in concepts like limited government or fiscal responsibility seems to be at an all-time low, and the major area where Sanders is pushing socialist policy is healthcare, which is quite obviously not anything like a well-functioning free market right now anyway. After four years of Trump, I’m not sure criticisms like “he’ll bankrupt us!” or “he’s too extreme!” or “destroying the status quo like that is dangerous!” will hold much water. The other part, though, is that I have less patience for bowing to arguments I know are bullshit just because I think other people might not recognize that they’re bullshit. We’re already in a mixed economy, and most of the areas Sanders is talking about “socializing” are already extremely regulated anyway, and nobody is seriously talking about changing that. It’s mostly just branding making Sanders “socialist” and his opponents “not socialist;” I tend to think capitalism (if that’s what we’re calling our current system) will survive a Sanders administration just fine. So you can still make tactical arguments like “maybe the socialism criticism is bullshit, but swing voters don’t know that so we should go with someone else.” But I think that sucks. Taken to its natural conclusion, you wind up saying things like “we better nominate a white male, because racists and sexists in Florida and Ohio could decide the outcome!” At some point you’re inventing shitty people in your head and doing whatever you think the shitty people would want because you can’t imagine trying to convince them not to be shitty. TL;DR: I’m still probably not very aligned with GH-type revolutionaries (I still haven’t seen anything to make me think the primary results are being intentionally manipulated, for instance), but I like Sanders a lot and even if he is weaker in the general (and I’m not sure he is), I’m willing to give it a shot.
That's a couple really solid thoughts. I must admit that I did completely forget about that concept of electability as an issue (probably because of how stupid that argument turned out to be last time around). To be honest, once you get past the rhetoric, I don't think Bernie's major policy positions are all that far from standard Democratic fare. If we look:
- Fight climate change. Very standard.
- $15/hr minimum wage. They went with this as a policy point last time, so it can't be that out-of-the-norm.
- Stop billionaire campaign contributions. It sounds like a pet issue, because just about no one else talks about it, but who is really going to come out against this in principle? The Democrats are at least nominally against this, even if in practice they take as many of these as the Republicans do.
- Universal healthcare / M4A. And the corollary: tax everyone, rather than tax the rich, to pay for it. Yeah, that seems to step on some major entrenched interests.
And everything else is very standard Democratic policy. From what I can tell, it's the healthcare policy explicitly, and the uncharacteristically principled opposition to the outsized influence of the wealthy implicitly, that makes him a "socialist" rather than your average Democrat. And frankly, I do get the sense that people are generally sympathetic to both of these "outlandish" principles.
All that being so, there is still quite a lot of opposition to Sanders, so I very much wonder if anyone is around to give a voice to "Some Other Democrat 2020" - it seems like all the opposition around here is coming from a strictly Republican/right-wing camp.
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On February 24 2020 05:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2020 05:51 Wegandi wrote:On February 24 2020 05:39 Nebuchad wrote:
The strengths of Sanders are the possibility to raise turnout, as Zambrah said, the capacity to have a meaningful and honest answer to economic arguments like "The economy is doing so well under Trump" that a liberal would have more trouble with, the capacity to address the concerns of swing states like Michigan and Wisconsin, and the fact that after four years of votebluenomatterwho, it's likely that you'll get a lot of liberals ready to vote for him even if they don't like him ideologically, something that is not true in the reverse for leftists and someone like Bloomberg.
Is that enough to win against the machine? I don't know. It's going to be close. But the data I've seen makes me think he is the most likely to win out of the candidates, biased as that conclusion may be. If Sanders has the best shot then the Democrats have no shot to beat Trump. The wealth of idiotic views and statements from Bernie is so long that Trump will have a field day with the ads and debates. Plus, I suspect there are more people like me out there that don't like Trump, but will absolutely run to the polls to vote against someone like Bernie. To me, Bernie looks like a repeat of '72 with McGovern. Bernie praising Daniel Ortega and the USSR just writes itself, and if he is going to push the Green New Deal, boy, that's going to go down like a lead balloon. Pretty sure his head-to-head against Trump is one of the highest out of the Democratic candidates, and it's in Sanders's favor. Also, Sanders is polling very well in swing states. From RealClearPolitics (polling repository): Soooo... yeah.
Polls now mean nothing. Just you wait until Bernie wins and the GOP hits Bernie with his historical views and on-air statements.
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On February 24 2020 05:57 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2020 05:55 Simberto wrote:
If people having idiotic views and statements stops you from voting for them, how do you manage to vote for Trump? He is pretty much the unchallenged world champion at having idiotic views and statements. As bad as Trump is, Sanders is far worse.
Why? One is a self-dealing moron. The other has ideas you don't like.
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Northern Ireland26032 Posts
On February 24 2020 05:51 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2020 05:39 Nebuchad wrote:
The strengths of Sanders are the possibility to raise turnout, as Zambrah said, the capacity to have a meaningful and honest answer to economic arguments like "The economy is doing so well under Trump" that a liberal would have more trouble with, the capacity to address the concerns of swing states like Michigan and Wisconsin, and the fact that after four years of votebluenomatterwho, it's likely that you'll get a lot of liberals ready to vote for him even if they don't like him ideologically, something that is not true in the reverse for leftists and someone like Bloomberg.
Is that enough to win against the machine? I don't know. It's going to be close. But the data I've seen makes me think he is the most likely to win out of the candidates, biased as that conclusion may be. If Sanders has the best shot then the Democrats have no shot to beat Trump. The wealth of idiotic views and statements from Bernie is so long that Trump will have a field day with the ads and debates. Plus, I suspect there are more people like me out there that don't like Trump, but will absolutely run to the polls to vote against someone like Bernie. To me, Bernie looks like a repeat of '72 with McGovern. Bernie praising Daniel Ortega and the USSR just writes itself, and if he is going to push the Green New Deal, boy, that's going to go down like a lead balloon.
When did he praise the USSR wholesale?
‘The wealth of idiotic views and statements is so long that Trump will have a field day’ I mean are you trolling here? Trump will have a field day in finding idiotic statements to get capital from? It will be Trump doing this as opposed to, you know the people who aren’t Trump scrutining his sketchy record?
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On February 24 2020 05:59 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2020 05:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 24 2020 05:51 Wegandi wrote:On February 24 2020 05:39 Nebuchad wrote:
The strengths of Sanders are the possibility to raise turnout, as Zambrah said, the capacity to have a meaningful and honest answer to economic arguments like "The economy is doing so well under Trump" that a liberal would have more trouble with, the capacity to address the concerns of swing states like Michigan and Wisconsin, and the fact that after four years of votebluenomatterwho, it's likely that you'll get a lot of liberals ready to vote for him even if they don't like him ideologically, something that is not true in the reverse for leftists and someone like Bloomberg.
Is that enough to win against the machine? I don't know. It's going to be close. But the data I've seen makes me think he is the most likely to win out of the candidates, biased as that conclusion may be. If Sanders has the best shot then the Democrats have no shot to beat Trump. The wealth of idiotic views and statements from Bernie is so long that Trump will have a field day with the ads and debates. Plus, I suspect there are more people like me out there that don't like Trump, but will absolutely run to the polls to vote against someone like Bernie. To me, Bernie looks like a repeat of '72 with McGovern. Bernie praising Daniel Ortega and the USSR just writes itself, and if he is going to push the Green New Deal, boy, that's going to go down like a lead balloon. Pretty sure his head-to-head against Trump is one of the highest out of the Democratic candidates, and it's in Sanders's favor. Also, Sanders is polling very well in swing states. From RealClearPolitics (polling repository): Soooo... yeah. Polls now mean nothing. Just you wait until Bernie wins and the GOP hits Bernie with his historical views and on-air statements.
Polls mean way more than your baseless assertion.
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On February 24 2020 05:55 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2020 05:51 Wegandi wrote:On February 24 2020 05:39 Nebuchad wrote:
The strengths of Sanders are the possibility to raise turnout, as Zambrah said, the capacity to have a meaningful and honest answer to economic arguments like "The economy is doing so well under Trump" that a liberal would have more trouble with, the capacity to address the concerns of swing states like Michigan and Wisconsin, and the fact that after four years of votebluenomatterwho, it's likely that you'll get a lot of liberals ready to vote for him even if they don't like him ideologically, something that is not true in the reverse for leftists and someone like Bloomberg.
Is that enough to win against the machine? I don't know. It's going to be close. But the data I've seen makes me think he is the most likely to win out of the candidates, biased as that conclusion may be. If Sanders has the best shot then the Democrats have no shot to beat Trump. The wealth of idiotic views and statements from Bernie is so long that Trump will have a field day with the ads and debates. Plus, I suspect there are more people like me out there that don't like Trump, but will absolutely run to the polls to vote against someone like Bernie. To me, Bernie looks like a repeat of '72 with McGovern. Bernie praising Daniel Ortega and the USSR just writes itself, and if he is going to push the Green New Deal, boy, that's going to go down like a lead balloon. Am I right to assume that if I ask you why you’d run to the polls to oppose “someone like Bernie,” the word “socialism” is likely to be in your first few sentences?
Yes, Bernie represents entirely antithetical views on Government than my own, and while Trump holds a fair bit as well, to compare to Bernie its like night and day. Trump is a nuisance that will be gone, but Bernie is a threat imho.
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On February 24 2020 06:01 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2020 05:51 Wegandi wrote:On February 24 2020 05:39 Nebuchad wrote:
The strengths of Sanders are the possibility to raise turnout, as Zambrah said, the capacity to have a meaningful and honest answer to economic arguments like "The economy is doing so well under Trump" that a liberal would have more trouble with, the capacity to address the concerns of swing states like Michigan and Wisconsin, and the fact that after four years of votebluenomatterwho, it's likely that you'll get a lot of liberals ready to vote for him even if they don't like him ideologically, something that is not true in the reverse for leftists and someone like Bloomberg.
Is that enough to win against the machine? I don't know. It's going to be close. But the data I've seen makes me think he is the most likely to win out of the candidates, biased as that conclusion may be. If Sanders has the best shot then the Democrats have no shot to beat Trump. The wealth of idiotic views and statements from Bernie is so long that Trump will have a field day with the ads and debates. Plus, I suspect there are more people like me out there that don't like Trump, but will absolutely run to the polls to vote against someone like Bernie. To me, Bernie looks like a repeat of '72 with McGovern. Bernie praising Daniel Ortega and the USSR just writes itself, and if he is going to push the Green New Deal, boy, that's going to go down like a lead balloon. When did he praise the USSR wholesale? ‘The wealth of idiotic views and statements is so long that Trump will have a field day’ I mean are you trolling here? Trump will have a field day in finding idiotic statements to get capital from? It will be Trump doing this as opposed to, you know the people who aren’t Trump scrutining his sketchy record?
The idea that Trump would scold Sanders for praising Russia is literally the most hypocritical thing I've ever heard in my life.
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On February 24 2020 06:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2020 05:59 Wegandi wrote:On February 24 2020 05:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 24 2020 05:51 Wegandi wrote:On February 24 2020 05:39 Nebuchad wrote:
The strengths of Sanders are the possibility to raise turnout, as Zambrah said, the capacity to have a meaningful and honest answer to economic arguments like "The economy is doing so well under Trump" that a liberal would have more trouble with, the capacity to address the concerns of swing states like Michigan and Wisconsin, and the fact that after four years of votebluenomatterwho, it's likely that you'll get a lot of liberals ready to vote for him even if they don't like him ideologically, something that is not true in the reverse for leftists and someone like Bloomberg.
Is that enough to win against the machine? I don't know. It's going to be close. But the data I've seen makes me think he is the most likely to win out of the candidates, biased as that conclusion may be. If Sanders has the best shot then the Democrats have no shot to beat Trump. The wealth of idiotic views and statements from Bernie is so long that Trump will have a field day with the ads and debates. Plus, I suspect there are more people like me out there that don't like Trump, but will absolutely run to the polls to vote against someone like Bernie. To me, Bernie looks like a repeat of '72 with McGovern. Bernie praising Daniel Ortega and the USSR just writes itself, and if he is going to push the Green New Deal, boy, that's going to go down like a lead balloon. Pretty sure his head-to-head against Trump is one of the highest out of the Democratic candidates, and it's in Sanders's favor. Also, Sanders is polling very well in swing states. From RealClearPolitics (polling repository): Soooo... yeah. Polls now mean nothing. Just you wait until Bernie wins and the GOP hits Bernie with his historical views and on-air statements. Polls mean way more than your baseless assertion.
No, they don't. Go look at historical data on polling during primaries and compare their accuracy to the final result. It's not even remotely in the ball park. I'll be here to tell you I told you so when Trump wins something like 415+ electoral votes.
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Sounds similar to how the democratic establishment couldn't wait to pin Trump on racism and sexism and were sure that it would destroy him.
Trump won in part thanks to populism. Running a campaign against populism in favor of establishment economy isn't going to be that easy for him. You are right that the GOP will do that and that they can't wait, but that doesn't ensure they'll manage.
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On February 24 2020 06:03 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2020 06:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 24 2020 05:59 Wegandi wrote:On February 24 2020 05:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 24 2020 05:51 Wegandi wrote:On February 24 2020 05:39 Nebuchad wrote:
The strengths of Sanders are the possibility to raise turnout, as Zambrah said, the capacity to have a meaningful and honest answer to economic arguments like "The economy is doing so well under Trump" that a liberal would have more trouble with, the capacity to address the concerns of swing states like Michigan and Wisconsin, and the fact that after four years of votebluenomatterwho, it's likely that you'll get a lot of liberals ready to vote for him even if they don't like him ideologically, something that is not true in the reverse for leftists and someone like Bloomberg.
Is that enough to win against the machine? I don't know. It's going to be close. But the data I've seen makes me think he is the most likely to win out of the candidates, biased as that conclusion may be. If Sanders has the best shot then the Democrats have no shot to beat Trump. The wealth of idiotic views and statements from Bernie is so long that Trump will have a field day with the ads and debates. Plus, I suspect there are more people like me out there that don't like Trump, but will absolutely run to the polls to vote against someone like Bernie. To me, Bernie looks like a repeat of '72 with McGovern. Bernie praising Daniel Ortega and the USSR just writes itself, and if he is going to push the Green New Deal, boy, that's going to go down like a lead balloon. Pretty sure his head-to-head against Trump is one of the highest out of the Democratic candidates, and it's in Sanders's favor. Also, Sanders is polling very well in swing states. From RealClearPolitics (polling repository): Soooo... yeah. Polls now mean nothing. Just you wait until Bernie wins and the GOP hits Bernie with his historical views and on-air statements. Polls mean way more than your baseless assertion. No, they don't. Go look at historical data on polling during primaries and compare their accuracy to the final result. It's not even remotely in the ball park. I'll be here to tell you I told you so when Trump wins something like 415+ electoral votes.
Well we'll all be here; don't worry 
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On February 24 2020 06:00 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2020 05:57 Wegandi wrote:On February 24 2020 05:55 Simberto wrote:
If people having idiotic views and statements stops you from voting for them, how do you manage to vote for Trump? He is pretty much the unchallenged world champion at having idiotic views and statements. As bad as Trump is, Sanders is far worse. Why? One is a self-dealing moron. The other has ideas you don't like.
Stupid twitter tweets and incoherent ramblings I can live with. They're not comparable.
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On February 24 2020 06:06 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2020 06:00 Acrofales wrote:On February 24 2020 05:57 Wegandi wrote:On February 24 2020 05:55 Simberto wrote:
If people having idiotic views and statements stops you from voting for them, how do you manage to vote for Trump? He is pretty much the unchallenged world champion at having idiotic views and statements. As bad as Trump is, Sanders is far worse. Why? One is a self-dealing moron. The other has ideas you don't like. Stupid twitter tweets and incoherent ramblings I can live with. They're not comparable.
Do you not believe in climate change either?
Do you not believe in promoting education, science, or civil rights either?
Do you not believe in having strong diplomatic relations with other countries either?
The idea that the only damage that Donald Trump is doing to our country (and the world) is limited to superficial social media posts is just plain wrong.
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Northern Ireland26032 Posts
On February 24 2020 06:06 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2020 06:00 Acrofales wrote:On February 24 2020 05:57 Wegandi wrote:On February 24 2020 05:55 Simberto wrote:
If people having idiotic views and statements stops you from voting for them, how do you manage to vote for Trump? He is pretty much the unchallenged world champion at having idiotic views and statements. As bad as Trump is, Sanders is far worse. Why? One is a self-dealing moron. The other has ideas you don't like. Stupid twitter tweets and incoherent ramblings I can live with. They're not comparable.
It’s not just Tweets though is it?
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On February 24 2020 06:05 Nebuchad wrote:
Sounds similar to how the democratic establishment couldn't wait to pin Trump on racism and sexism and were sure that it would destroy him.
Trump won in part thanks to populism. Running a campaign against populism in favor of establishment economy isn't going to be that easy for him. You are right that the GOP will do that and that they can't wait, but that doesn't ensure they'll manage.
Because racism and sexism in America, especially in light of the PC narrative, doesn't resonate for voters. That's not an issue that brings people to the polls. Socialism, even if you spice it up with "Democracy" does. Views saying how good Fidel Castro was and how great the Sandinista's were and eat the rich, take their shit, that does bring people to the polls in America. Comparing Democrats blinders to Bernie doesn't make much sense to me.
America has changed from 1972, but I'm not so sure it changed that much.
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Northern Ireland26032 Posts
The Trump presidency is an unmitigated disaster outside of some extremely specific framings.
If you’re a constitutional conservative he’s horrendous, if you’re at all on the left he’s horrendous, etc
If it wasn’t for fucking everyone else over I’d be happy to let you guys be ruled by the King you seem to desire but alas other people get involved
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On February 24 2020 06:11 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2020 06:05 Nebuchad wrote:
Sounds similar to how the democratic establishment couldn't wait to pin Trump on racism and sexism and were sure that it would destroy him.
Trump won in part thanks to populism. Running a campaign against populism in favor of establishment economy isn't going to be that easy for him. You are right that the GOP will do that and that they can't wait, but that doesn't ensure they'll manage. Because racism and sexism in America, especially in light of the PC narrative, doesn't resonate for voters. That's not an issue that brings people to the polls. Socialism, even if you spice it up with "Democracy" does. Views saying how good Fidel Castro was and how great the Sandinista's were and eat the rich, take their shit, that does bring people to the polls in America. Comparing Democrats blinders to Bernie doesn't make much sense to me. America has changed from 1972, but I'm not so sure it changed that much.
Don't you think Sanders wouldn't be the most popular senator right now overall and among independants if things were so clear cut?
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